Slower is Better?

Have any of you experimented with slower velocities in order to get better penetration? Though this sounds back asswards I have had people tell me of amazing penetration with a slower projectile. I've not done this but the theory they tell me the faster the bullet the more the surface appears to react like it's harder?! A few years back Myth Busters tested firing bullets in a tank and then a swimming pool with the idea "would you be safe 3' feet under water" or whatever the depth was. They shot firearms as I recall like muzzleloader, 45acp, 3006, 223 and 50BMG. Now from what I remember the faster the bullet the less penetration it had especially the 50bmg since all the fast bullets exploded on the surface and never made it to the balistic gel where as the slower bullet pushed further.

I found in lots of testing that the velocity limiter is the construction/material of the bullet. With a good hardcast, flat-nosed bullet, if pushed too fast, you will compromise the integrity of the bullets nose, thereby hampering penetration. In other words, it is easy to exceed their material limitations if pushed to too high velocities. They penetrate like crazy at moderate speeds. Case in point at a Linebaugh Seminar a number of years ago, my .50 Alaskan revolver (the one in my signature) was owned by someone else (jwp475). That revolver is capable of slinging a 525 grain WFN at nearly 1,600 fps. At that velocity, the 525 penetrated a full 51-inches a wetpack. That very same bullet (same manufacturer, same nose profile, and same hardness) shot immediately afterwards from a .500 Linebaugh at a whopping 1,100 fps, penetrated 51-inches.

Now, that said, you can take a bullet with a hard construction, like a Punch bullet, Barnes Buster, or CorBon Penetrator, and actually increase penetration with higher velocities although it is not linear at all and the faster your bullet hits, the greater the resistance (compound resistance). Since revolvers are somewhat velocity limited, you may not see drastic gains pushing a bullet at 1,700 fps versus 1,500 fps (this is just an arbitrary example). Keep in mind that these three bullet types mentioned above are virtually glorified hardcast, flat-nosed bullets and they are producing the same terminal dynamic, but are way more resistent to deformation.

what he, whitworth, said but and i'll give a big but on this, and we see this all the time in trauma surgery.......the velocity increase can substantially increase the damage to the tissue especially if for example you're using a good cast bullet that deforms a bit and doesn't crack and it expands. one of my favorite beartooth loads in the 454 has a relatively small meplat but when it hits and expands usually to about .6" if i run it hard.....it sure does wreck tissue that is much larger than when i run the same bullet to a 45 colt velocity. granted when it hits the vitals, the animal dies and the deformation i discussed will hamper penetration some, especially in newspaper but when you're talking 2000lbs and down ya got enough penetration anyways.

the only difference b/w a 9mm and a 357 is velocity and if you've been in a trauma surgery room, ya know which one kills better in fact i'd put the 357 above the 45 acp on humans without question but that's based on my experiences.

That's really good info you two and it makes a lot of since. Now with that being said do you think it's possible that "deer scenario I talked about" to have that 300xtp come apart or over expand or something went wrong since it was being pushed around 1700fps? MAybe it was a bad bullet who knows! I'm the kind of guy if it works dont fix it but if one time something doesn't go right I'm not content until I can come up with a logical reason what went wrong. I hit it exactly where I wanted no miss about it.

IMHO, not the XTP.
(Of course mine was out of a 44 mag at 1450fps at 10 yards. From the conversations I have had with users on the forum, I "think" the 300 XTP Mag out of the 454 would be comparable. Maybe someone who knows more than I can chime in.)



I have shot hogs with that bullet and had over 2 feet of penetration. and that is with the entrance wound being in the fore head. ROTFLMBO!!!!


It was the finishing shot on a pig. But under the circumstances, I thought it was good humor.


Duane

my son shot a deer with a 325gr hardcast and we had those bullets come apart both on the deers shoulder and an oryx. did nothing more than superficial wounding, not an indictment of the type of bullet just a very very poor quality bullet.

as soon I think I got it figured out something happens!

Really ya need to make sure ta the mag xtp. Ill start off by saying that everyones experiences vary. That said, i think it is very likely that ya missed. I dont know anytime ive shot a 454 under 100 yards the gun and muzzleblast were out of the way enough to tell exactly where the bullet hit. That said te fact the deer went down on the shot means ya made impact somewhere. The fact it had a limp means ya likely hit it in the leg unless the deer was later injured in a fight or by a predator. To give ya an example i have an old piece of farm equipment on my property we shoot through a 3/8" steel beam on for giggles. My 240 gr xtp mag at 2050 fps puts a hole right through it. If i run a 250 gr xtp at the same speed it barely leaves a dent and theres minute pieces of bullet and jacket around. If i shoot the same bullet out of my 45 colt it leaves a nice dent much larger than when its run fast. The bullet is obviously running to fast and coming apart. A regular 300 gr xtp isnt much tougher. The 300 gr mag xtp goes right through at 1700 fps. I think it very possible it just blew up like an old nosler ballistic tip would routinely do on a deers shoulder. I seen it happen. If ya use the right bullet the round is just devastating use the wrong bullet and get ready for disappointing failure in my experience.

Tctex. My post is not to insinuate youre wrong. Im just sating my experience. Im gonna do some experimenting of that round youre using out of my smith and then out of a rifle.

You mean like what they refer to as a ' splash', trad?

Dude, it's all good. My experiences are with the 44 and not the 45. Totally different application. Good form!


What is funny is that I am switching away from the 300gr XTP in my 44's because of the lack of performance. I think that just reinforces your comment about being selective with your choice of bullets and their application.


Duane


I just need to switch to a LBT in my 9.5in scoped 44... LOL

Yup its the bummer splash. Really sucks on the side of a mountain in the san juans when your bud has a shot with his 300 weatherby on an elk after 5 days and "splash" he used the wrong bullet and no elk. Booooh

Haha just make sure its a beartooth. Got a 250 gr 44 mag lbt from beartooth. It holds together nicely at high velocities. The 300 gr hornady performs very nicely put of a 44 mag rifle.

Pretty interesting...not something I usually associate with a large bore revolver round. I tend to think of a high speed diminutive , varmint round.

I limited my response to penetration as that is what the OP was asking about, and deliberately left splash, hydraulic pressure, etc. out of the equation because it complicates matters. When you are shooting at higher velocities, a tougher bullet is required or it may not penetrate very deeply. But that is the beauty of a good (I emphasize good) flat-nosed hardcast bullet. You can slow the impact velocity down and it will still go end to end on a big animal and there's a very good chance you will get an exit -- I always strive for two holes when possible as they bleed more.

I didn't want to introduce wound channel size either as this is a function of many factors and it's just too early for me to get the old brain firing on all eight.

All eight?? I figured you for more of an odd German turbo five cylinder.....

A simple fact of physics is the faster an object hits another the more resistence encounterted. The faster velocity creates more hydraulkic pressure in tissuse which if high enough create more tissue danage as tradmark posted above.

Trad, those are interesting findings you have seen between the mag and non mag bullet. This is is the kind of stuff I joined up to hear. Good information and the more we have to provide the better decisions one can make.

My only thing is I'm trying to keep it flat shooting for long range and my experience has been with some cast bullets is the leading issue which I can't stand. A good cast bullet is better than most jacketed bullets from I see but you give up speed to prevent leading.

That depends on how fast you intend to push them. I never experience leading at any speed, and frankly flat trajectory and revolver shouldn't be mentioned in the same sentence. What are the distances you intend to hunt?

Dan, as a former associate editor of Car Craft magazine, and tech editor at another popular national auto publication, you would have guessed wrong.

And judging by the revolvers I own and shoot, haven't you guessed that I'm a large displacement, horsepower guy??

Done correctly a proper hard cast with a proper lube can be pushed 3000FPS out of a rifle

Veral Smiths's book on the subject is a must read

JWP is right. I am currently pushing several cast bullets at 2200 with out any problems.

As jwp also pointed out, a great source of information is Veral Smith's book. I don't push cast bullets that fast, but it's only because I have nothing that will push them that fast!

There are just too many variables to make a blanket statement about velocity in general aside from what Tradmark said about tissue damage. The density of the tissue impacted, the construction of the bullet and the angle of impact as well as specific velocity all can cause variations in penetration. The deepest penetration I've had on any animal was with a .458 cal Hornady 500gr soft point out of a 458 Lott rifle running 2300fps. It was a frontal chest shot at an uphill angle into a water buff. The bullet entered the chest and then penetrated roughly 3ft and struck the spine roughly half way back dropping the animal instantly. The bullet retained about 80% of its weight and its important to understand these are not premium bullets by any means.

I'm sure you've all read the Randy Garrett write up about this topic. If not, here it is.

http://www.garrettcartridges.com/penetration.html

What's your favorite cast bullet? Obviously you have had much better luck than me. It's been many years since I've shot cast. Under 200yards with the 454 but closer is always better. Out of the 454 I like the 300grain and I will max it out around 1650fps. The 44 in the 240grain around 1450fps but the most accurate bullet I use to shoot was the Horn FPJ 265grain. Are you casting your own? Leading is the only thing that has kept going back to cast. Share your secrets please. So glad this week is over today felt like 3 Mondays!

My favorite cast are beartooths and cast performance is good too. I like beartooths better amd theyre cheaper. In fact, i used them tonight as a stopper on a rifle wounded oryx after a lengthy bloodtrail f/u. One shot thru the shoulder and it was game over. Never did find the bullet.

There are two I like in .45: Double Tap makes a 360 grain WFN that works like a charm, and Cast Performance makes a 335 grain WLN that I really like.

In .429 Mag, I like both Double Tap's 320 grain WFNs and Cast Performance's 300 grain WFN and their 320 grain WLN.

In the .500 JRH, I like Cast Performance's 440 grain WFN and Double Tap's 400 grain WFN. I have some 440 grain WLNs from Beartooth that I am eager to try when I find the time.

In .510 (.500 Linebaugh, .500 Maximum, and .50 Alaskan) bore, I absolutely love Cast Performance's 525 grain WFN and their 500 grain LFN is a killing machine as well (I used that bullet on a moose and a black bear).

I have NEVER, EVER had any issues with leading with any of these bullets.

Also my cousin ha his first handgun kill today as well. Had a neck shot on an oryx with factory hornady xtps. 300 gr. interestingly enough, he didnt actually go thru the spine. The bullet passed just next to it and imparted enough shock to drop and kill the animal on the spot

Excellent! Congratulations to your cousin! Is he hooked now??

I'm not a big cast shooter but I also like the CP's and although they have a smaller selection Oregon Trail Trueshots are my favorite bullet and so far the hardest I've found with a brinnel hardness of 24 whereas most others including CP are in the 21-22BH range. I run a 430gr .458 cal out of my Marlin 1895 at 2150fps without any leading, there is however alot of recoil in that little rifle.

Yeah hes hooked. Hes gonna be. A pretty vocal handgunhunter he is now. Id be surprised if he hunts with a rifle again

Great stuff! That matches what I have heard.

I'm having a hard time crusising this site. I reply to someones comment and it sticks it at the end as the last of the post and it makes me wonder if the intended person got the reply! Chit I'm lost! Information over load this is Great! What is the name of Veral Smith book you guy's are talking about I got to get it? Hey Trad what was your opinion of that 300xtp on that Orx? Have you found the bullet yet? MAkes me want to go make some new loads and go test.....yahooo!

The book is called Jacketed Performance with Cast Bullets -- I would go to his website to order it. It's in its third printing. The site is: http://www.lbtmoulds.com

Enjoy! Nice to see your enthusiasm!

That's great, Mark! The more we hook the better. We are such a small segment of the hunting population, that we can ill afford not having one strong, united voice.

Got it. Thanks Whit!

Zeb, when you use the reply function, you're replying to the original post. If you want to reply to a specific quote under the original post, use the "quote" or "quick quote" function and it will appear as you're seeing this post...

Its a lil blue book right. I got that book from my mentor several ears ago. Great book. Whit youre right. In fact all of hunting needs to have one voice

You're right, we can't afford to be fractured.

KRal, I think I got it!

I am no expert on bullets but know what I like and there is not much I can add upon though I do recomend this thread
http://forums.accuratereloading.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/4711043/m/2861098911

Its alot of info 260 + and mostly rifles but gives you a very good grasp of terminal performance on many levels.

like I was saying before there are alot of variables and therefore different opinions on velocities and bullet types. All you can do is absorb the info you get from us and different articles and then make up your own mind. Here is another article from Hawk Custom Bullets specifically on handgun hunting.

http://www.hawkbullets.com/Handgun.htm

Well you have lots of advice already but here is my 2 cents worth. The weight of the projectile has a lot to do with things. Lets just take the 45colt. I have used everything from 250xtps to 350gr Penn bullets. From my experience the lighter the projectile the faster it needs to be pushed. A 260 bullet at 900fps will plow through any white-tail we have and kill it fine. Run the same projectile up to 1200 fps and it seems to do it a little more efficiently.

Take a 340gr bullet and run it up to 1250-1300fps and then load another batch at 900-1000fps and it appears from wound exams that you gain nothing from the extra fps except blast and recoil. Like the others have said varying quality of projectiles makes no one solution correct. Again just my 2 cents worth.

[quote=WhitworthThat's great, Mark! The more we hook the better. We are such a small segment of the hunting population, that we can ill afford not having one strong, united voice. [/quote]

I agree with you to a point,,,, but I went to the stores a little bit friday and there were plenty of large pistol primers, bullets, and some powders to be had. Even a good many single action handguns, and the prices weren't inflated. Kind of nice!!

What store had anything in stock?

I'm coming across odds and ends at different stores, just the luck of the draw and also stores in more rural areas seem to be the better choices.

One was Sportsmans Warehouse, the other was a local shooters supply/indoor range. Yea, the only primers available were shotgun shell primers and plenty of large pistol primers.