We need a new cast vs. jacketed hunting thread

Need to keep it peacible but everyone has an opinion. I have used cast and jacketed both on game. Shot them both on game from handguns all the way from just over 400flbs to 2500ftlbs. IMHO the cast bullets require less muzzle energy to cleanly kill game than jacketed bullets. The energy is used to cut and plow rather than explode and disintegrate. I do prefer cast bullets on hogs. If you get one with thick armor the cast will usually poke through it. I saw a guy dig 3 Nosler partitions which is one of my favorite bullets out of the armor on a hog. None of them made it over 3" and didn't hit vitals. If the guy had shot just behind the armor it would have been over with one shot. He ended up head shooting the hog. .44 Specials and cast bullets go together like coffee and doughnuts. What say ye gentlemen?

I like and use both. I understand their place.

For thin skinned game such as deer, I like jacketed. If I need penetration over expansion (like on really big pigs), I'd prefer a hard cast.

Never hunted with anything but jacketed bullets. But then never went after anything bigger than a hog.

Going to watch this one.

XTP is fine by me.

I had way too much fun with these debates years ago. I use big bore bottleneck and straight wall rifle rounds in my Competitors. I've never needed or wanted to use a cast bullet in them. If someone likes them, use them. Enjoy yourself 😉 I can get through the toughest gristle shield on any boar with a good, heavy, jacketed bonded bullet. No need for boolets 😉 with that said, both work. Examples..376 Steyr, 411/338, 416 Barnes, and 475/350 Mag....and yes, I know it's not fair to compare these rounds to typical pistol rounds

Hmmm...
IMO This question really needs to ask several other questions to arrive at the correct answer.

Namely: What game animal is being pursued? What cartridge? What grain weight in that caliber? Distance involved?

In a cartridge say, .44 cal and above, a FLAT-nosed hard cast bullet only needs to be pushed to approximately 1000 fps and it will cut a mean path and cut it very deeply. Very good for quartering shots and thick bones etc. This allows you to reduce velocity down to 1000-1100 and reduce recoil and reduce muzzle rise while still killing reliably.

However, a hollow point is generally more effective(quicker) on thin-skinned game if placed through the ribs. It will leave a larger exit hole as well if it exits. Heavy hollow points will usually allow your bullet to exit well. This is why I choose a 180 grain .357 hollow point instead if a 158. Those 158 HPs don't always exit. I like two holes to leak blood in a thicket.

Examples:

In my .44 Special I shoot hard cast exclusively because it will penetrate and carve that wound channel well at .44 Special velocities. The .44 cal/heavy bullet does all that is required. Lead also reduces pressures compared to jacketed loads. This is generally a good thing in a Special. Also, most hollow points in .44 cal are meant for expansion at .44 mag velocity - not 1000 fps Special loads. So, hard cast gets the nod in the Special. If I shot the magnum, a 300 grain HP might be my choice for deer/hogs.

My .358 JDJ is a different animal entirely. I shoot jacketed through it. It is high velocity with 180-200 grain loads and that means a jacket does me favors. Also, I like a 358 hole through the vitals, but I like it way better when it expands to 1.5 times that diameter. So, an expanding jacketed soft point is good for that too! Additionally, those pointy bullets at high velocity are nice for long range compared to a flat nosed lead bullet. So, my long range, scoped rig is usually shooting a jacketed bullet.

Caveat: Handgunners also have to take into account that jacketed bullets are designed to expand within a certain velocity window. You must know what that window is and if your barrel length will provide the said velocity needed. Otherwise, you may end up with a bullet that never expands and ends up acting like a FMJ. In a 7-30 waters handgun you must choose carefully to avoid bullets buit for 7mm mag rifle velocity. In my 358 JDJ there are still many bullets designed for a 35 Remington rifle that will expand very well at 358 JDJ velocity. Some of them even over expand!

Conclusion - I don't think it's a simple "which is better" question. My answer is: It depends...

Same here. I'll just sit back and watch.

Deer and antelope or elk broadside - XTP
Punching heavy bone or muscle- HC

Hard cast for me, all the way around.

I think I'll stick with jacketed bullets unless I intend to use a relatively low velocity handgun. I don't see myself hunting anything bigger than a whitetail buck in the near future.

I know I said I was going to sit back and watch but what about a jacketed bullet that acts like a hardcast? Testing them I've never seen any sign of expansion from Sierra's 300 gr 45 cal JSP (8830). Sierra's site now says its the hardest bullet they make. A Sierra tech said they will expand down to 1100fps but at 1400fps from a revolver and 1500fps from an Encore (both 454 Casull) they show no sign of expansion. From my measurement the meplat is right around 71% of the bullet diameter so its just under most LFN hardcast bullets. I've only shot one deer with them and it didn't travel very far. If I use them on deer again I'll aim for the shoulder instead of a heart/lung shot.

I've never used them but on the other side of the table there are softer cast bullets that expand. Cast bullets with a soft nose and a hard base. Also the "Deer Grenade" by Rim Rock Bullets and loaded by Buffalo Bore. There are a few more options to muddy the water.

Sounds like fun, I'm in for a hand and will throw in solid copper bullets as an option since they haven't been mentioned yet. Use what ya all want and recognize that each have advantages where the other fails to perform, but I personally think solid copper bullets CAN offer the best of both worlds IF used at the velocities they were designed for. While they do expand (and that takes energy), they don't waste a large fraction of their energy on shredding the soft (Caution! beginning of soap box rant!) toxic lead core into hundreds of little particles to be scattered throughout your food like most jacketed bullets do (I assume the lack of deformation in hard cast means they share this behavior and don't contaminate your food)(end of soap box rant). That saved energy can be used for deeper penetration (then jacketed) with a larger cross sectional area (then HC). Expanding bullets will never have the penetration of a HC, but which makes an animal more dead, a bullet flying out the back side of the animal with significant velocity and energy to be wasted or a bullet that delivers more of that energy to the animal with a wider effective blunt face then the hard cast? If I was forced to use HC or jacketed, I would choose HC due to the lack of bullet deformation and assume that means there are no lead particles in the meat I feed my family.

Velocity, maximum range and lead drove the decision for me. I have opted for all copper spitzer bullets in both 30-30 and 45-70 that were designed for the slow velocities of 300 blackout and 458 SOCOM that I could replicate or exceed in TC pistols. (While I haven't bloodied the 45-70 yet, the load I'm expecting to use this fall has a maximum range based on expected bullet performance of ~190 yards from a 13" barrel with a break (1400fps @ 190yd with a 300gn bullet, a bit of overkill for deer, but I hope to use it on moose some day).

My 30-30 hunting load which has a maximum effective range of well over 400 yards (1400fps @ 400+yd with 110gn bullet, well beyond my current skill but practice makes perfect). I never investigated the standard flat nosed 30-30 bullets, but the copper bullets designed for 30-30 gave me a maximum effective range of ~150 yards. The area I hunt has a maximum shot distance of ~250 yards and I wanted more range then a traditional bullets (HC or flatnose) would give me with their poor BC.

In the end, one must consider, velocity, pressure, range, bullet design, case design and intended game when choosing a bullet.

my first thought on seeing this was oh no not again.:)

jm2c; i use .429, 240gr, cast semi wad cutters @ 1000fps for every thing. IHMSA, cans, deer, coon, skunks.... no hogs, moose are too much work after the bang, i'd take a wack at a black bear but dont go looking for em.

That was my initial reaction as well. I have literally written volumes on this very subject and have terminal ballistics fatigue (that is a medical term). Let me gather my thoughts and revisit this a little later in the morning -- when I've had sufficient coffee to partake.

Just one thought before I go back to waking up. Energy dump, muzzle energy, etc. is a myth that has been perpetuated by conventional wisdom and the popular gun media for decades and is a piss-poor (that's a technical term) measure of lethality.

"I'll be back" - A. Schwarzenegger or
"I shall return" General Douglas MacArthur

I wonder how many posts we will get to before Gary says, "Guys... I'm watching!!"

Fellers my intention is not to start an argument. Both have pros and cons. There are several newbys here and several lurkers that are just trying to get a handle on handgun hunting and this should serve as education for them as well as a little fun for us. I use both and know that both have there place.

I think this site has come well beyond the argument stage of the cast vs jacket discussion and the member handgun hunters are smart enough to know the difference`s and use what they know works for them......

I agree, James. But, jwp hasn't chimed in yet

I've been waiting for someone to come out with a jacketed hard cast with a wide meplat. Best of both worlds. To be legal in MN it would have to have a bit of lead exposed, or a hollowed area in the nose, that could be argued to be an expanding bullet. Ya, stupid law. I have been looking at the powder coated hard cast offerings as my biggest complaint about naked boolits is the mess. I don't need a hard cast to kill MN whitetails but wouldn't mind working up a nice 300 grain slow rolling bulldozer for my 45, in the event I take on something a little tougher than deer one of these days. Not that I don't think a 250 XTP can't kill most anything given proper shot placement, but.......

Everything is being covered rather well, I have one thing to add. All cast Bullets are not created equal just as all jacketed are not created equal. I have seen cast Bullets with nice meplats on large game not penetrate straight because the nose same was not correct. Whe correct they work extremely well. Testing them in wet pack helps to sort this out

How about a powder-coated, slow rolling soft cast HP, Rod? I know a guy...

By the way, so proud of everyone - this conversation has been quite civil.

Duck! You just jinxed it! Haha!

Most all of us find something that works & we stay with it, if that was jacketed in the beginning then we stay with jacketed, just human nature. If we started out with cast & had success then we probably didn't change anything, we just stayed with cast. What's the old saying "If it ain't broke, don't fix it"
For me, with almost nt exception its been cast bullets, bigger, wider nose for the same weight bullet, some expansion, always complete penetration & a dead animal, very little if any tracking & I've taken a high number of big game animals. Could I have done the same with jacketed, maybe, I don't know.
There are some very good jacketed bullets available now that weren't available back in the 60's when I started handgun hunting so I can't knock those that use them, if they are killing game, good job! I'll stick with cast & that bigger meplat & I'll take any angle I choose because I have.

Dick

Well said James! I agree.



The 45 cal 300gr Sierras I wrote about are just what you're describing. They have about 1/8" of exposed lead on the tip. Sierra lists them as being "6% antimony, 4% tin and 90% lead alloy core". They have a decent meplat for a jacketed bullet and performed like a hardcast.

Al handgun bullets produced and sold in the United States meet the legal requirements of an expanding bullet.

We've NEVER had this discussion without it getting out of hand! I still think it's a ticking bomb. Whitworth is right-- better duck!!

Whitworth was being facetious

Don't be scared boys...We are all on the same side.
If someone starts acting stupid, Gary will warn them.
If they continue being stupid, Gary will remove them.
If someone cannot be respectful of others, they don't deserve to be here.
Enjoy and share your opinions and experiences.

Was he?? You guys KNOW how this conversation normally goes.

I took a look and you are right. I think I might have to try some:

https://www.sierrabullets.com/store/product.cfm/sn/8830/4515-dia-45-cal-300-gr-JSP

That may be, but I don't want to try to explain that to our DNR if I get checked with a mag full of 230 fmj ball in my 1911 while on stand.

Just tell him you read on the internet that it was okay. Problem solved!

I don't have the experience a lot of you have, having only killed a few big game animals with my handguns, but here's my take. It was said early on in the postings and I like it.
If you are after thin skinned game, I think the expansion of a jacketed bullet will give a better wound channel and create more hydrostatic shock.
If you need to punch a deep hole in order to get the kind of penetration you need on an animal, then use a hard cast.
All that said, without getting into one hole vs two holes and such.
I do think however that with the development of better and better bullets the lines between the two are getting closer together.

Shoot what shoots accurate in your gun, cast or jacketed, some of the calibers we shoot here, I don"t think it matters much.

[qu, some of the calibers we shoot here, I don"t think it matters much. [/quote]
If Whitworth had been born at an earlier time, He would have been a 4 bore guy. Maybe a 8 bore Howdah pistol for tigers from elephant back.

610 GNR & 620 JDJ.....have at it 😉

I'm referring to deer and boars.

probably should wear a glove.

Haha, ya. I'm sure he'll let me slide when I convince him that I'm a french model.

I tested the 300gr Sierra JSP all the way to 1600fps and never got it to expand. I am sure it would punch through hog armor.

Ny thoughts originally when I was young was to use replenishable bullets(that our government couldn't restrict) so I started casting my own. Now, I prefer flat nosed heavy cast slugs in all my handgun loads. I carried 310 gr. Lee RFs in my Mountain Gun when hunting Russian Boar in New Hampshire.
Steve