Re: bullet failure
[Re: sixshot]
#191051
03/26/2018 6:42 PM
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Joined: Jan 2014
Posts: 430
Craig44
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Gregg, I think both those bullets look really good but I have to disagree on one thing. I care a whole lot about what the animal does, to me that's #1 after the shot. I'll worry about the bullet performance later but recovering the animal has to come first. Didn't say I didn't care. I said it had nothing to do with what I consider a failure or not. The point being, a bullet can do exactly what I wanted and expected but the critter runs 100yds before giving up. Likewise, a bullet can be an utter failure and the critter drop on the spot.
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Re: bullet failure
[Re: sixshot]
#191052
03/26/2018 6:46 PM
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Joined: Jun 2010
Posts: 3,020
tradmark
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Raptor.....i got into the bullet performance as i think most who have by having a failure. Some may decide its not a failure but after using a bullet that i had many successful hunts with. I made a great shot on cow elk and followed it with several more right in the boiler room. Elk continued to run. It died but the end result but at the end of a deadfall that i had to back out an elk up nearly 1000 feet of elevation over logs. It was hell and i saw my bullets that had served me well before suddenly not opened and bent and some blow to peices. It caused me lots of work. I decided i needed to study the issue. One i didnt know needed studying when hunting deer and other similiar game under the 200lb threshold. More questions were raised when guiding for oryx and then it got more Critical when the discussion turned towards cape buffs. Thats how it started for me, at least.
On a side note. I Really think this is a great forum. I think 99% of people here would get along really well when they get to know each other. Lately things have gotten testy amongst people that would usually get along well. Or worse, have so in the past. I would hope everyone could be mindful of that fact and that when things get stirred up in the forum ?cauldron? theres usually someone stirring the pot with a stick. A stick That they have hands on both sides of while stirring.
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Re: bullet failure
[Re: tradmark]
#191053
03/26/2018 6:52 PM
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Joined: Jan 2014
Posts: 430
Craig44
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I just have a real problem with folks wanting to alienate, divide and conquer over friggin' bullets.
Personally, I've always been fascinated by what bullets do to critters. Even as a kid hunting with .22's and air guns.
Since we're obviously not doing it right, which was gleaned from Zee's few hours spent as a guest on a several day hunt, I anxiously await the results of his buffalo cut `n shoot.
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Re: bullet failure
[Re: Craig44]
#191059
03/26/2018 9:00 PM
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Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 818
sixshot
old hand
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old hand
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Funny that through all of these discussion the excellent Speer Gold Dot (Deep Curl) hasn't been brought up. I have taken one cow elk with that bullet & it worked great. Never used an XTP. I know it's a bit softer that some of the other bullets, but still it's a dandy at 270 grs & at magnum velocities.
Dick
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Re: bullet failure
[Re: sixshot]
#191061
03/26/2018 9:03 PM
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Joined: Jan 2014
Posts: 430
Craig44
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I often wonder that too. The Gold Dot/Deep Curl is a much better bullet than the XTP. I've driven them fast enough to blow apart but the core material always remains bonded to the jacket. The 270gr .44 is particularly good.
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Re: bullet failure
[Re: sixshot]
#191062
03/26/2018 9:09 PM
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Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 4,861
Franchise
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I've shot the .475 version of the Speer Deep Curl (400 gr) out of my 475/350 Rem Mag. The bullet so far has given great expansion and excellent wight retention. I'm pushing them over 1,800 fps...no problems...I've used the 400 gr XTP (475) out of the same pistol...I don't recover bullets on deer, but, in my case/opinion..velocity is king. JD Jones used to write in the Sixgunner that the 400 gr 475 XTP required at least 1,650 fps out of his 475 JDJ to reliably give expansion...they are pretty hard bullets (400 gr .475 XTP's)
The Eyes are Useless, When The Mind Is Blind
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Re: bullet failure
[Re: Franchise]
#191063
03/26/2018 9:13 PM
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Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 4,861
Franchise
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400 gr Speer Deep Curl out of my 475/350 Mag Single Shot
The Eyes are Useless, When The Mind Is Blind
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Re: bullet failure
[Re: Franchise]
#191064
03/26/2018 9:16 PM
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Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 4,861
Franchise
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Distinguished Expert
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Recovered 400 gr .475 XTP out of my 475/350 Mag Single Shot
The Eyes are Useless, When The Mind Is Blind
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Re: bullet failure
[Re: Franchise]
#191070
03/26/2018 10:22 PM
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Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 9,715
jamesfromjersey
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How fast were the Speer/XTP bullets going out of your 475/350????? Just ordered a cannelure tool from K.Knight with the intension of rolling a crimp groove on some Speer/Xtp bullets made for the 50AE to see how they perform from my 500WE... May turn out to be just right for deer/boar... When I run 400gr bullet in the 1200fps range from my FA`s its gets your attention fast.... I don`t need that power for what I`ll be hunting but I also don`t want to leave the gun in the safe...
Life member-NRA-SCI Member-HHI #2900-HHASA #067 Colt-Ruger-Freedom Arms-and S&W Collector Assoc.s "I have more guns then I need but not as many as I want" "Handgun hunters HAVE to be good"
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Re: bullet failure
[Re: jamesfromjersey]
#191071
03/26/2018 10:38 PM
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Joined: Dec 2008
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Franchise
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1,837 fps at about two feet from the muzzle...and as my video on The Handgun Hunting Forum on Facebook, it kicks just a little....hahahahaha
The Eyes are Useless, When The Mind Is Blind
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Re: bullet failure
[Re: Franchise]
#191075
03/26/2018 11:32 PM
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Joined: Jun 2010
Posts: 3,020
tradmark
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Every bullet type has some different characteristics in different calibers. Aframes in 45 cal are much tougher than in 44 cal for example. I think the 300gr 44 mag bullet is vastly superior to the 300?s in 45 cal. I think it was you, franchise, that was commenting that jd jones or some gun builder had tested the 400 hr xtp 475 bullet and found it started to reliably expand at around 1600fps which mirrors what ive seen and that is the 475 cal xtps are tough tough bullets and dont reliably expand at 480 and 475 linebaugh velocities. It may and it may not. Ibe had the exact opposite with 240xtp mag at 454 velocities. Some great mushrooms and great explosions. Ots an interesting science experiment for sure.
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Re: bullet failure
[Re: tradmark]
#191077
03/26/2018 11:49 PM
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Joined: Dec 2008
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The .475 version is definitely tough..so is the 500 gr XTP FP in the. 500..The gentleman from SC who produces the B&M line of cartridges uses it in his custom rifles and vaves about them...he used them on Cape and Water Buffalo..every bullet is a little different
The Eyes are Useless, When The Mind Is Blind
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Re: bullet failure
[Re: Franchise]
#191078
03/26/2018 11:50 PM
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Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 9,715
jamesfromjersey
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1,837 fps at about two feet from the muzzle...and as my video on The Handgun Hunting Forum on Facebook, it kicks just a little....hahahahaha I shot that cannon of yours and you really don`t know what a hard kicking handgun is about until shoot something like that
Life member-NRA-SCI Member-HHI #2900-HHASA #067 Colt-Ruger-Freedom Arms-and S&W Collector Assoc.s "I have more guns then I need but not as many as I want" "Handgun hunters HAVE to be good"
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Re: bullet failure
[Re: Franchise]
#191081
03/27/2018 12:09 AM
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Joined: Jun 2010
Posts: 3,020
tradmark
Shooting Expert
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Shooting Expert
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I havent seen that. I would love too!
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Re: bullet failure
[Re: tradmark]
#191082
03/27/2018 12:38 AM
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Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 3,625
Raptortrapper
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I havent seen that. I would love too! X2 for sure!! Only critter I ever took with an xtp of any sort was a deer. Used Hornady cartridges right off the shelf through my very first hunting handgun-- a 460 S&W XVR. Knowing what I know now, I would have bought a different revolver as my first hunting handgun, but that "scam bullet" did it's job that day. I went home with a dead critter. It didn't even take a step. I believe that bullet was made so Smith and Wesson could say they had the fastest, biggest, baddest.... Whatever. And admittedly, I bought into it. But now that I'm older and more experienced in this way of life, in my opinion, the 460 doesn't really show it's ability till you get to the heavy bullets. My second 460 was a single shot, and it loved the 335gr hardcast, and hit like a hammer. Anyway, guess I got a little long winded, but that's my limited experience with the xtp bullets, and it worked very well that day.
A lot of people are like a slinky: Not much fun till you push them down the stairs!
Lifetime Member of the NRA! Wish I'd a done it sooner.
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Re: bullet failure
[Re: Raptortrapper]
#191088
03/27/2018 2:05 AM
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Joined: Jun 2010
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In some calibers and weights ive seen nothing but success out of xtps. Others as low as 50/50.
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Re: bullet failure
[Re: tradmark]
#191089
03/27/2018 2:07 AM
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Joined: Jun 2010
Posts: 3,020
tradmark
Shooting Expert
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My 460 is at its best with 300-325 gr aframes for sure.
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Re: bullet failure
[Re: tradmark]
#191091
03/27/2018 2:47 AM
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Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 3,625
Raptortrapper
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Tradmark-- this talking about my old 460, and hearing of yours, makes me want another one!! Maybe someday...
A lot of people are like a slinky: Not much fun till you push them down the stairs!
Lifetime Member of the NRA! Wish I'd a done it sooner.
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Re: bullet failure
[Re: Raptortrapper]
#191093
03/27/2018 3:38 AM
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Joined: Jun 2010
Posts: 3,020
tradmark
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Haha. Maybe one day we shall tAckle Nasty critters together. If u dont get another one i have 2!!
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Re: bullet failure
[Re: tradmark]
#191094
03/27/2018 4:04 AM
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Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 3,625
Raptortrapper
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HAHA!!! That'd be fun for sure. And yeah, I'm sure I'll have another one some day. Got other irons in the fire right now though.
A lot of people are like a slinky: Not much fun till you push them down the stairs!
Lifetime Member of the NRA! Wish I'd a done it sooner.
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Re: bullet failure
[Re: Raptortrapper]
#191095
03/27/2018 4:07 AM
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Joined: Jun 2010
Posts: 3,020
tradmark
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Oh yeah. I hear ya. Ive got many irons in many fires. I like all the shooting sports.
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Re: bullet failure
[Re: Zee]
#191114
03/27/2018 4:37 PM
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Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 4,155
Gregg Richter
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Sixshot, I agree with you, I didn't mean to give the wrong impression. My "best" shot is always a one shot DOA kill; and when I achieve that I feel that I did my job correctly. Not sure what you mean about what happened to the post. Yeah z you deleted it (got scared?) or maybe Gary did. Good idea to get rid of what you posted as it could of gotten you banned IMO. Too bad someone didn't quote you on it.
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Re: bullet failure
[Re: Gregg Richter]
#191117
03/27/2018 5:44 PM
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Joined: Mar 2014
Posts: 3,006
Zee
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Sixshot, I agree with you, I didn't mean to give the wrong impression. My "best" shot is always a one shot DOA kill; and when I achieve that I feel that I did my job correctly. Not sure what you mean about what happened to the post. Yeah z you deleted it (got scared?) or maybe Gary did. Good idea to get rid of what you posted as it could of gotten you banned IMO. Too bad someone didn't quote you on it. It wasn?t me.
"To Hell with efficiency, it's performance we want!" - Elmer Keith
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Re: bullet failure
[Re: Gregg Richter]
#191118
03/27/2018 6:03 PM
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Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 5,512
Ernie
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Sixshot, I agree with you, I didn't mean to give the wrong impression. My "best" shot is always a one shot DOA kill; and when I achieve that I feel that I did my job correctly. Not sure what you mean about what happened to the post. Yeah z you deleted it (got scared?) or maybe Gary did. Good idea to get rid of what you posted as it could of gotten you banned IMO. Too bad someone didn't quote you on it. You are barking up the wrong tree about Zee. He is not wired the way that you questioned/suggested to him concerning, "fear."
Ernie the Un-Tactical
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Re: bullet failure
[Re: Zee]
#191122
03/27/2018 6:10 PM
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Joined: Jun 2010
Posts: 3,020
tradmark
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Im not sure what post was ban-worthy, i may not be paying enough attention. I dont mind controversial posts. I do think that anything said that leads to even better testing is valuable, as long as it is applied evenly across the board which is whysome look at some posts as an attack. AS LONG AS ITsa critique for improved information its good but should be applied across the board consistently WHAT I Think we should all worried about is people who try and start controversy between members for whatever reason playing both ends against the middle. I think many of us have unwittingly been victims of this already😠
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Re: bullet failure
[Re: tradmark]
#191148
03/28/2018 1:11 PM
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Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 1,097
jwp475
old hand
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old hand
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 1,097 |
Every bullet type has some different characteristics in different calibers. Aframes in 45 cal are much tougher than in 44 cal for example. I think the 300gr 44 mag bullet is vastly superior to the 300?s in 45 cal. I think it was you, franchise, that was commenting that jd jones or some gun builder had tested the 400 hr xtp 475 bullet and found it started to reliably expand at around 1600fps which mirrors what ive seen and that is the 475 cal xtps are tough tough bullets and dont reliably expand at 480 and 475 linebaugh velocities. It may and it may not. Ibe had the exact opposite with 240xtp mag at 454 velocities. Some great mushrooms and great explosions. Ots an interesting science experiment for sure. I have a recovered Speer Gold Dot 158 grain fired from my 357 S&W revolver at 1400 FPS that sows zero expansion, looks unfired except fir the rifling marks.
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Re: bullet failure
[Re: Gregg Richter]
#191149
03/28/2018 1:14 PM
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Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 1,097
jwp475
old hand
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old hand
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 1,097 |
Sixshot, I agree with you, I didn't mean to give the wrong impression. My "best" shot is always a one shot DOA kill; and when I achieve that I feel that I did my job correctly. Not sure what you mean about what happened to the post. Yeah z you deleted it (got scared?) or maybe Gary did. Good idea to get rid of what you posted as it could of gotten you banned IMO. Too bad someone didn't quote you on it. In my experience what the animal does after the shot may or may not indicate good bullet performance. I?ve seen deer run with the heart and lungs destroyed and the offside shoulder nearly blown off.
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Re: bullet failure
[Re: jwp475]
#191161
03/28/2018 4:52 PM
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Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 818
sixshot
old hand
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old hand
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 818 |
John, that's the crazy thing about bullets that I don't think we'll ever solve. You mention heart & lungs destroyed plus the off shoulder, so that bullet had to work extremely well, yet the animal runs off. That could just be that animals will to live, and the next animal drops on the spot from less performance, it happens & we can't explain it. But I don't know if we can blame that on the bullet if it does everything you just described, I've seen the same thing but can't explain it either. It's the biggest X factor in hunting & probably always will be because of angles, impact, velocity, etc. just such a crazy mix of events once that bullet leaves the barrel & yet fascinating with the end result. Just like the 357 Gold Dot at 1400 fps with no expansion, that bullet at that speed should give some expansion on a Potato!
Dick
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Re: bullet failure
[Re: Franchise]
#191166
03/28/2018 7:14 PM
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Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 1,097
jwp475
old hand
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old hand
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The .475 version is definitely tough..so is the 500 gr XTP FP in the. 500..The gentleman from SC who produces the B&M line of cartridges uses it in his custom rifles and vaves about them...he used them on Cape and Water Buffalo..every bullet is a little different Micheal has never used the XTP on buffalo of any kind not out of a rifle or handgun.
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Re: bullet failure
[Re: sixshot]
#191167
03/28/2018 7:16 PM
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Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 1,097
jwp475
old hand
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old hand
Joined: Jan 2009
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John, that's the crazy thing about bullets that I don't think we'll ever solve. You mention heart & lungs destroyed plus the off shoulder, so that bullet had to work extremely well, yet the animal runs off. That could just be that animals will to live, and the next animal drops on the spot from less performance, it happens & we can't explain it. But I don't know if we can blame that on the bullet if it does everything you just described, I've seen the same thing but can't explain it either. It's the biggest X factor in hunting & probably always will be because of angles, impact, velocity, etc. just such a crazy mix of events once that bullet leaves the barrel & yet fascinating with the end result. Just like the 357 Gold Dot at 1400 fps with no expansion, that bullet at that speed should give some expansion on a Potato!
Dick You summed tit up rather well.
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Re: bullet failure
[Re: jwp475]
#191176
03/28/2018 9:15 PM
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Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 9,836
Whitworth
Shootist
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Shootist
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The .475 version is definitely tough..so is the 500 gr XTP FP in the. 500..The gentleman from SC who produces the B&M line of cartridges uses it in his custom rifles and vaves about them...he used them on Cape and Water Buffalo..every bullet is a little different Micheal has never used the XTP on buffalo of any kind not out of a rifle or handgun. I know Michael and he absolutely doesn?t and hasn?t used XTPs on any bovines. The CEB solids are his design. I hope Bud Rummel chimes in, but he used the 500 grain .500 Smith XTPs and wasn?t happy at all with them on Bison and I believe water buffalo.
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Re: bullet failure
[Re: Whitworth]
#191181
03/28/2018 10:21 PM
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Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 4,861
Franchise
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I will tell you without a doubt that if you go to the B&M website and look at the 50 Alaskan B&M and the B&M Long..he has used them on Wildebeest, zebra, Eland, and Giraffe...he recommends them for big bears and lion too. He (Michael) from Conway SC did 2 bullet reviews on Midway
The Eyes are Useless, When The Mind Is Blind
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Re: bullet failure
[Re: Franchise]
#191182
03/28/2018 10:23 PM
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Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 4,861
Franchise
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I was mistaken on the Large Dangerous Bovines, but he sure likes the 500 gr XTP FP...
The Eyes are Useless, When The Mind Is Blind
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Re: bullet failure
[Re: Franchise]
#191183
03/28/2018 10:31 PM
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Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 4,861
Franchise
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Yep..the article I read was that Layne Simpson was taking the 50 B&M Alaskan to Africa and thought it would work good on the Cape Buffalo..my mistake, but Michael from Conway, SC (owner of that rifle company) certainly likes the bullet..Hornady 500 gr XTP FP
The Eyes are Useless, When The Mind Is Blind
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Re: bullet failure
[Re: Franchise]
#191185
03/28/2018 11:45 PM
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Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 1,097
jwp475
old hand
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old hand
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I asked Micheal in bullet tech earlier to day. If you are a member then you can read his reply, I was rather sure that he didn?t use any XTP?s on any large game at all.
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Re: bullet failure
[Re: jwp475]
#191186
03/29/2018 12:06 AM
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Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 4,861
Franchise
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Well guys, I just want you to read his bullet review of the XTP on Midway...I don't know him....I was just going by his review....read it and see what you think
The Eyes are Useless, When The Mind Is Blind
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Re: bullet failure
[Re: Franchise]
#191187
03/29/2018 12:11 AM
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Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 9,836
Whitworth
Shootist
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Shootist
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Posts: 9,836 |
Well guys, I just want you to read his bullet review of the XTP on Midway...I don't know him....I was just going by his review....read it and see what you think It sounds like we?re talking about different Michaels.
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Re: bullet failure
[Re: Whitworth]
#191188
03/29/2018 12:12 AM
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Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 4,861
Franchise
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[img]I would like to add an update review for this bullet. In April I had tested the bullet up to 1875 fps in wet print with perfect results. I have since that time increased the velocity to 2100 fps in a new rifle cartridge--50 B&M Long. This has been tested in wet print with 100% success. The bullet holds together, expands, and penetrates to around 20" at this velocity. However, the main reason for this update is the success I had recently in Africa with this bullet on wildebeest, zebra, eland, and giraffe. I used my mid size 50 B&M and the original velocity of 1875 fps. This bullet performed perfectly and of all the soft point bullets used on this trip, the 500 Hornady really showed it's stuff! It literally knocked the socks off everything, perfect performance, bullet did not break up, or shed jackets, and retained 80% + of the original weight! We are very close to having a perfect .500 diameter bullet for velocities from 1500 to 2100 fps! This is a great choice for the big bears, lion, and any soft skinned dangerous game, and of course other game such as elk & Africa's big antelope. It is a hammer! Thank You Hornady! Was this review helpful to you? 27 5[/img]
The Eyes are Useless, When The Mind Is Blind
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Re: bullet failure
[Re: Franchise]
#191189
03/29/2018 12:18 AM
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Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 9,836
Whitworth
Shootist
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Shootist
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Posts: 9,836 |
[img]I would like to add an update review for this bullet. In April I had tested the bullet up to 1875 fps in wet print with perfect results. I have since that time increased the velocity to 2100 fps in a new rifle cartridge--50 B&M Long. This has been tested in wet print with 100% success. The bullet holds together, expands, and penetrates to around 20" at this velocity. However, the main reason for this update is the success I had recently in Africa with this bullet on wildebeest, zebra, eland, and giraffe. I used my mid size 50 B&M and the original velocity of 1875 fps. This bullet performed perfectly and of all the soft point bullets used on this trip, the 500 Hornady really showed it's stuff! It literally knocked the socks off everything, perfect performance, bullet did not break up, or shed jackets, and retained 80% + of the original weight! We are very close to having a perfect .500 diameter bullet for velocities from 1500 to 2100 fps! This is a great choice for the big bears, lion, and any soft skinned dangerous game, and of course other game such as elk & Africa's big antelope. It is a hammer! Thank You Hornady! Was this review helpful to you? 27 5[/img] I?ll put you in touch with him if you want to talk to him.
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Re: bullet failure
[Re: Franchise]
#191190
03/29/2018 12:20 AM
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Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 4,861
Franchise
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Sorry guys, it must be a different guy. The above post is from Michael from Conway, SC...he makes another review too...Sorry for the confusion
The Eyes are Useless, When The Mind Is Blind
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