Re: Cast or expanding for large big game???
[Re: BBwheelgunner]
#198620
04/06/2019 5:41 AM
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Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 9,715
jamesfromjersey
Shootist
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Shootist
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 9,715 |
On Swift`s web site there is a 2 minute video showing their bullet board and if you enlarge the video and pause it when they are panning the bottom row you will see their 400gr. .475 JFP A-frame (three bullets to the left of the sectioned 45) they never put into production. I think it was to be made for a lever action rifle.... I had that bullet on backorder from,I believe, Midway for a few months when they informed me it was not in production... Can you imagine?? A 400 grain A-frame for you 475 Linebaugh....
Life member-NRA-SCI Member-HHI #2900-HHASA #067 Colt-Ruger-Freedom Arms-and S&W Collector Assoc.s "I have more guns then I need but not as many as I want" "Handgun hunters HAVE to be good"
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Re: Cast or expanding for large big game???
[Re: jamesfromjersey]
#198638
04/07/2019 4:06 PM
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Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 1,642
BBwheelgunner
Pooh-Bah
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Pooh-Bah
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 1,642 |
man, I would think a 400gr Swift A-Frame would be an absolute hammer in the 475.
I am thankful that their .452 line is robust with the 265, 300, and 325 as that is what I shoot currently. pretty much covers all the bases.
It would be nice if they would offer a 400 in the 475 and at least that in a .500
"If you are going to go through all the trouble to put a hole in something, why not make it a big one?"
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Re: Cast or expanding for large big game???
[Re: BBwheelgunner]
#198642
04/07/2019 5:18 PM
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Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 366
JDK
enthusiast
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enthusiast
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 366 |
I?m surprised they don?t have a .358 in their levergun lineup.
John
But for the grace of God, there, I go.
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Re: Cast or expanding for large big game???
[Re: JDK]
#198648
04/07/2019 8:25 PM
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Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 4,861
Franchise
Distinguished Expert
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Distinguished Expert
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 4,861 |
Don't be too surprised guys. We are a small group. Unfortunately, a lot of guys that buy big bore revolvers never truly hunt with them. They become table top conversation pieces...Recoil is real, and very few folks can accurately handle it. Look at what is selling now....the big thing.....the super powerful 10mm hahahahahahaha.......and some folks really think it's a gun for the big five.....complete stupidity
The Eyes are Useless, When The Mind Is Blind
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Re: Cast or expanding for large big game???
[Re: Franchise]
#198652
04/07/2019 11:13 PM
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Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 3,625
Raptortrapper
Shooting Master
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Shooting Master
Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 3,625 |
Sorry, this post is a bit of topic, but I have, and CC, a 6" Springfield TRP in 10mm. Absolutely love it, and plan on hunting with it. But there is NO WAY, on THIS GREEN EARTH, that I would chase the big 5 with it. Under a jacket, in a holster from Milt Sparks, it can't be seen. I had an ill-fitting holster for it while the Milt Sparks was being made last summer while I was at Wyshot, and I should have just done without and not carried it for those few weeks. That Fobus holster I used temporarily was a horrible fit for it. But the Milt Sparks is perfect in every way. (Horse hide trimmed in Shark.) The 10mm will be good medicine for bears and lions around here, and I'm sure it serves as a GREAT deterrent to bad guys when seen in open carry also. But Big 5-- no way.
A lot of people are like a slinky: Not much fun till you push them down the stairs!
Lifetime Member of the NRA! Wish I'd a done it sooner.
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Re: Cast or expanding for large big game???
[Re: Raptortrapper]
#198653
04/07/2019 11:19 PM
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Joined: Oct 2012
Posts: 525
Brenden
addict
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addict
Joined: Oct 2012
Posts: 525 |
I still wish Speer hadn't dropped the 400 grain slug. As of now, I'm shooting a 412 and 420 cast slug out of my 475 Linebaugh, but may try some of the fury bullets if nothing else.
Not a lot in the way of .475 diameter slugs. Not much over 325 grains anyway. Should have bought a 500 jrh...
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Re: Cast or expanding for large big game???
[Re: Brenden]
#198657
04/08/2019 12:37 AM
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Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 4,861
Franchise
Distinguished Expert
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Distinguished Expert
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 4,861 |
I wish Barnes would come out with a 325 to 350 gr XPB in .475
The Eyes are Useless, When The Mind Is Blind
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Re: Cast or expanding for large big game???
[Re: Franchise]
#198666
04/08/2019 2:36 AM
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Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 1,642
BBwheelgunner
Pooh-Bah
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Pooh-Bah
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 1,642 |
I wish Barnes would come out with a 325 to 350 gr XPB in .475 Yeah I don't have a 475, but an XPB in that range would be money too
"If you are going to go through all the trouble to put a hole in something, why not make it a big one?"
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Re: Cast or expanding for large big game???
[Re: BBwheelgunner]
#198676
04/08/2019 2:48 PM
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Joined: Nov 2012
Posts: 171
Buck_358
member
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member
Joined: Nov 2012
Posts: 171 |
Here?s a sampling of my test results with .475 caliber bullets. One may want to consider Hawk?s 475 caliber lineup, Hawk will also work with you on custom orders. That said, the fact that Doc Rodgers has taken Lion and Cape Buffalo with the Barnes 275 XPB was a deciding factor in my 475-bullet choice. My velocities were recorded by lab radar. I score the wet newsprint results every 3 inches until the bullet is found. However, getting my excel matrix to display correctly here is a bit of a challenge. For ease of reading, I?ve limited this data to total penetration, bullet diameter and weight retention.
Wet Newsprint Test ? BFR 7 ?? .475 Linebaugh - Medium Distance 50 Yards Bullet Powder Charge Primer Mz - Velocity Barnes - 275 XPB A#9 28.5 CCI 350 1667 11.5? Stopped Bullet Dia 1.048" Wt. Retention 274 / 99% Bullet Powder Charge Primer Mz - Velocity Barnes - 275 XPB A#9 29.5 CCI 350 1755 15? Stopped Bullet Dia 1.011" Wt. Retention 274 .3/ 99.7% Bullet Powder Charge Primer Mz - Velocity Hawk 300 x .025 HP A#9 29 CCI 350 1567 12? Stopped Bullet Dia .781" Wt. Retention 267.4 / 89.1% Bullet Powder Charge Primer Mz - Velocity Hornady 325 XTP A#9 27 CCI 350 1549 17? Stopped Bullet Dia .749" Wt. Retention 301.2 / 92.6% Bullet Powder Charge Primer Mz - Velocity Hawk 350 x .025 HP A#9 26 CCI 350 1459 13? Stopped Bullet Dia .880" Wt. Retention 306.0 / 87.4%
NRA Patriot Life Endowment HHI #6544
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Re: Cast or expanding for large big game???
[Re: Buck_358]
#198679
04/08/2019 3:51 PM
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Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 4,861
Franchise
Distinguished Expert
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Distinguished Expert
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 4,861 |
Damon, you are a wealth of knowledge. You really need to come hunt with us sometime. You have some impressive Encore barrels
The Eyes are Useless, When The Mind Is Blind
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Re: Cast or expanding for large big game???
[Re: Franchise]
#198681
04/08/2019 4:19 PM
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Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 4,861
Franchise
Distinguished Expert
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Distinguished Expert
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 4,861 |
Dennis at Fury Custom Bullets can also make you about any type of bullet that you can imagine
The Eyes are Useless, When The Mind Is Blind
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Re: Cast or expanding for large big game???
[Re: Buck_358]
#198686
04/08/2019 5:01 PM
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Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 9,715
jamesfromjersey
Shootist
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Shootist
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 9,715 |
Here?s a sampling of my test results with .475 caliber bullets. One may want to consider Hawk?s 475 caliber lineup, Hawk will also work with you on custom orders. That said, the fact that Doc Rodgers has taken Lion and Cape Buffalo with the Barnes 275 XPB was a deciding factor in my 475-bullet choice. My velocities were recorded by lab radar. I score the wet newsprint results every 3 inches until the bullet is found. However, getting my excel matrix to display correctly here is a bit of a challenge. For ease of reading, I?ve limited this data to total penetration, bullet diameter and weight retention.
Wet Newsprint Test ? BFR 7 ?? .475 Linebaugh - Medium Distance 50 Yards Bullet Powder Charge Primer Mz - Velocity Barnes - 275 XPB A#9 28.5 CCI 350 1667 11.5? Stopped Bullet Dia 1.048" Wt. Retention 274 / 99% Bullet Powder Charge Primer Mz - Velocity Barnes - 275 XPB A#9 29.5 CCI 350 1755 15? Stopped Bullet Dia 1.011" Wt. Retention 274 .3/ 99.7% Bullet Powder Charge Primer Mz - Velocity Hawk 300 x .025 HP A#9 29 CCI 350 1567 12? Stopped Bullet Dia .781" Wt. Retention 267.4 / 89.1% Bullet Powder Charge Primer Mz - Velocity Hornady 325 XTP A#9 27 CCI 350 1549 17? Stopped Bullet Dia .749" Wt. Retention 301.2 / 92.6% Bullet Powder Charge Primer Mz - Velocity Hawk 350 x .025 HP A#9 26 CCI 350 1459 13? Stopped Bullet Dia .880" Wt. Retention 306.0 / 87.4%
Buck, All the bullets expanded well with the XTP giving deepest penetration. I wonder how the Speer 325 would have performed?? thanks for your information
Life member-NRA-SCI Member-HHI #2900-HHASA #067 Colt-Ruger-Freedom Arms-and S&W Collector Assoc.s "I have more guns then I need but not as many as I want" "Handgun hunters HAVE to be good"
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Re: Cast or expanding for large big game???
[Re: jamesfromjersey]
#198754
04/09/2019 3:56 PM
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Joined: Nov 2018
Posts: 50
Paul_H
journeyman
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journeyman
Joined: Nov 2018
Posts: 50 |
19 gr of H-110 will push a 460 gr WFN 1100 fps from a 7 1/2" SRH 480. In the early 2000's I sent a box of those bullets to a buddy to see how they worked in his 480, and he took them to the Linebaugh seminar. In the wet newsprint test he got 38" of penetration. In the bone and newsprint test he got 2+" of bone and 10" of newsprint. Water quenched wheelweight alloy. I'd be curious to see how my 400 gr XLFN's loaded to 1200 fps would fare.
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Re: Cast or expanding for large big game???
[Re: Paul_H]
#198756
04/09/2019 4:14 PM
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Joined: Dec 2017
Posts: 258
Jeff460
enthusiast
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enthusiast
Joined: Dec 2017
Posts: 258 |
Impressive. Momentum is greater when combined with a heavy bullet for caliber and adequate velocity. Penetration through heavy bone and tight muscle tissue will be increased.
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Re: Cast or expanding for large big game???
[Re: Jeff460]
#198784
04/09/2019 9:12 PM
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Joined: Nov 2012
Posts: 171
Buck_358
member
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member
Joined: Nov 2012
Posts: 171 |
David - Thank you... I will have to plan to join sometime, considered the hunt you have for this month but it's the same time as our opener of spring Turkey where I already had plans.
James - Sorry I don't have the Speer's on hand or I would have given them a test with the others.
D..
NRA Patriot Life Endowment HHI #6544
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Re: Cast or expanding for large big game???
[Re: Buck_358]
#198786
04/09/2019 9:38 PM
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Joined: Nov 2018
Posts: 50
Paul_H
journeyman
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journeyman
Joined: Nov 2018
Posts: 50 |
I'm thinking momentum is more important for penetration than sd. Which is why IMHO contributes to why the larger calibers are better killers.
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Re: Cast or expanding for large big game???
[Re: Paul_H]
#198797
04/10/2019 1:41 AM
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Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 4,861
Franchise
Distinguished Expert
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Distinguished Expert
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 4,861 |
Damon, maybe next year...I'd love to shoot your 50 B&M Alaskan 😉😜 You'd have a blast buddy....the campfire stories are the best....very few big bore single shot guys anymore...I thought my 416 Barnes was a powerhouse, your 416 Rem Mag Encore is in a whole other class....
The Eyes are Useless, When The Mind Is Blind
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Re: Cast or expanding for large big game???
[Re: Paul_H]
#198815
04/10/2019 1:41 PM
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Joined: Dec 2017
Posts: 258
Jeff460
enthusiast
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enthusiast
Joined: Dec 2017
Posts: 258 |
I agree. Sectional density is a good comparison between rifle caliber bullets of a smaller caliber. Comparing a .308 caliber bullet to a .284 caliber bullet, for instance. The long parallel sides of rifle bullets aid stable penetration, all other variables being equal. But large caliber handgun and rifle bullets that have high weight, the sectional density is not as important. Momentum from their greater weight will increase penetration. A 44 caliber 300 grain XTP bullet penetrated deeper than a 500 S&W 300 grain jacketed bullet in ballistic gel on Kentucky Ballistics. The 500 S&W explosively expanded and dumped its energy but the 44 magnum 300 grain XTP did not expand and penetrated much deeper than the expanded but same weight 500 caliber bullet. For what it is worth, too high of an impact velocity can retard penetration. A sweet spot appears to be between 1350 to 1800 feet per second. That is why BIG BORE revolvers penetrate so well I guess. They parallel that velocity range with larger caliber and heavy bullets. A limit in weight seems to be also in play. The bullet must stabilize after leaving the barrel and some bullets can be too long or the twist rate of the barrel can affect stabilization to a great degree. The marriage of all the variables seem to be the key that we are all pursuing as we work up are loads and test our bullets.
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Re: Cast or expanding for large big game???
[Re: Jeff460]
#198819
04/10/2019 2:37 PM
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Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 9,836
Whitworth
Shootist
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Shootist
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 9,836 |
I think that 1,800 fps is random. The reality is that there are few calibers/load combinations in revolvers that can achieve velocities in that range. If the bullet is up to the task, the higher velocity certainly won't hurt - well, it'll hurt the animal.
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Re: Cast or expanding for large big game???
[Re: Whitworth]
#198822
04/10/2019 3:49 PM
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Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 4,861
Franchise
Distinguished Expert
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Distinguished Expert
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 4,861 |
I completely agree Whitworth!!!
The Eyes are Useless, When The Mind Is Blind
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Re: Cast or expanding for large big game???
[Re: Whitworth]
#198824
04/10/2019 4:08 PM
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Joined: Dec 2017
Posts: 258
Jeff460
enthusiast
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enthusiast
Joined: Dec 2017
Posts: 258 |
That was in reference to hard-cast lead bullets as a limitation, so I was not very clear. Sorry about that. Yes, with Punch bullets and mono-metal bullets, they should always benefit from more velocity. It also follows, a faster RPM (Rotations Per Minute) to effectively spin/drill that bullet deeper or through solid bone would be the result. In lighter-framed six-guns and five-guns the velocities are limited, so the velocity limitations would remain. The resultant recoil should also impose a comfort limit too, relatively speaking. If a heavy hard-cast/penetration bullet can go completely through a trophy Cape Buffalo broadside with moderate velocity, and then continue on to penetrate and kill a female Cape Buffalo unseen by the hunter on the other side, I would assume that would be an extreme performance and penetration example. Brian Pearce was the hunter I believe. He was using a 45/70 lever-action rifle with a heavy penetrating bullet of some maker. Whitaker is correct in the make and model name of the bullet, as he posted further down in response to my treatise. So a moderate velocity, compared to high velocity rifles, can exhibit powerful penetration. And the heavier projectile provides the momentum for the extreme penetration. I just want to be clear though. An A-frame has the characteristics of expansion as well as retained weight for deeper penetration. Greater velocity can help with that bullet also. But I am of the opinion that revolvers are best for BIG GAME with BIG BULLETS of over 40 caliber and up. The velocity is not going to reach over 2000 fps with HEAVY bullets, so the random 1800 fps comment was from my memory of a in-depth bullet-test spectacle made some years back. The test ran closer to 2100 fps as an extreme limit as rifles were also being tested. This is just my opinion, so please add it to the discussion.
Last edited by Jeff460; 04/11/2019 1:23 AM. Reason: Clarification change
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Re: Cast or expanding for large big game???
[Re: Franchise]
#198825
04/10/2019 4:15 PM
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Joined: Jul 2010
Posts: 1,374
cmnash
veteran
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veteran
Joined: Jul 2010
Posts: 1,374 |
I think that 1,800 fps is random. The reality is that there are few calibers/load combinations in revolvers that can achieve velocities in that range. If the bullet is up to the task, the higher velocity certainly won't hurt - well, it'll hurt the animal. I completely agree Whitworth!!! OH SNAP! Whitworth and Franchise agree about something?
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Re: Cast or expanding for large big game???
[Re: cmnash]
#198826
04/10/2019 4:21 PM
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Joined: Aug 2017
Posts: 1,821
45MAN
Pooh-Bah
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Pooh-Bah
Joined: Aug 2017
Posts: 1,821 |
IN REVOLVERS, BASICALLY I BELIEVE THE SWEET SPOT FOR MOST CAST BULLETS IS UNDER 1,300fps, THE SWEET SPOT FOR PREMIUM FMJ's OR MONOLITHICS OR AFRAMES IS AS FAST AS YOU CAN SHOOT THEM ACCURATELY, AND IF ANYBODY EVER FINDS A SWEET SPOT FOR XTP's PLEASE REPORT BACK.
"ADAPT OR DIE". I USE ALL CAPS, NOT BECAUSE I AM YELLING, BUT BECAUSE IT IS AN OLD HABIT FROM MY ARMY DAYS, PLUS IT IS EASIER TO TYPE AND READ.
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Re: Cast or expanding for large big game???
[Re: Jeff460]
#198827
04/10/2019 4:40 PM
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Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 9,836
Whitworth
Shootist
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Shootist
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 9,836 |
That was in reference to hard-cast lead bullets as a limitation so I was not very clear. Sorry about that. Yes, with Punch bullets and mono-metal bullets, they should always benefit from more velocity. It also follows, a faster RPM to effectively spin/drill that bullet deeper or through solid bone would be the result. In lighter framed six-guns and five-guns the velocities are limited so the velocity limitations would remain. The resultant recoil should also impose a comfort limit too. If a heavy hard-cast bullet can penetrate completely through a trophy Cape Buffalo broadside, and then continue on to penetrate and kill a female Cape Buffalo unseen by the hunter on the other side, I would assume that would be an extreme performance and penetration example. Brian Pearce was the hunter I believe. He was using a 45/70 lever-action rifle with a heavy hard-cast bullet. So a moderate velocity, compared to high velocity rifles, can exhibit powerful penetration. And the heavier projectile provides the momentum for the extreme penetration. I just want to be clear though. An A-frame has the characteristics of expansion as well as retained weight for deeper penetration. Greater velocity can help with that bullet also. I am of the opinion that revolvers are best for BIG GAME with BIG BULLETS of over 40 caliber and up. The velocity is not going to reach over 2000 fps with HEAVY bullets, so the random 1800 fps comment was from my memory of a in-depth bullet-test spectacle made some years back. Just my opinion so add it to the discussion. You don't want to run a hardcast bullet to 1,800 fps and frankly, I wouldn't run them over 1,400. It will overtax the material. Brian Pearce was using CorBon Penetrators when he inadvertently killed the two Cape buffalo.
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Re: Cast or expanding for large big game???
[Re: 45MAN]
#198828
04/10/2019 4:41 PM
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Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 9,836
Whitworth
Shootist
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Shootist
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 9,836 |
AND IF ANYBODY EVER FINDS A SWEET SPOT FOR XTP's PLEASE REPORT BACK. Haha! The sweet spot is on the shelf!
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Re: Cast or expanding for large big game???
[Re: cmnash]
#198829
04/10/2019 4:48 PM
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Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 9,836
Whitworth
Shootist
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Shootist
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 9,836 |
I think that 1,800 fps is random. The reality is that there are few calibers/load combinations in revolvers that can achieve velocities in that range. If the bullet is up to the task, the higher velocity certainly won't hurt - well, it'll hurt the animal. I completely agree Whitworth!!! OH SNAP! Whitworth and Franchise agree about something? Hahaha! We actually agree on a lot more than most think! We're just trying to keep y'all on your toes!
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Re: Cast or expanding for large big game???
[Re: 45MAN]
#198830
04/10/2019 4:55 PM
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Joined: Dec 2017
Posts: 258
Jeff460
enthusiast
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enthusiast
Joined: Dec 2017
Posts: 258 |
At 1300 fps you do reach as deep a penetration-level as the higher velocities do and with less recoil. You may go up in velocity but the returns for a hard-cast bullet in terms of increased penetration is not appreciable really. I agree with that sweet-spot designation. The 480 Ruger is an example. It has adequate power and penetration with appropriate bullets for anything that walks, crawls or approaches with menace and mayhem in mind, but is running bullets 100 fps or more LESS than the same in a 475 Linebaugh. So I would really concentrate on good bullet choices as well as hitting the vitals, because that is a never-changing requirement.
Last edited by Jeff460; 04/11/2019 1:15 AM. Reason: Clarification change
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Re: Cast or expanding for large big game???
[Re: Whitworth]
#198831
04/10/2019 5:08 PM
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Joined: Dec 2017
Posts: 258
Jeff460
enthusiast
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enthusiast
Joined: Dec 2017
Posts: 258 |
I stand corrected Whitaker. Bullet integrity is a given with Corbon Penetrator bullets. The velocity though was more than adequate, and that falls within the range I posted earlier. Velocity is not king!!! The bullet diameter, its construction/integrity and where it is placed reigns supreme. Velocity, up to a point, is a friend and companion, but it will constantly diminish as the bullet exits the barrel. Rotations per minute imparted by the rifling is a constant though, so the drilling effect of higher velocity must be accompanied by bullets of unquestionable integrity to be utilized effectively. What say you sir?
Last edited by Jeff460; 04/11/2019 1:27 AM. Reason: Clarification change
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Re: Cast or expanding for large big game???
[Re: 45MAN]
#198833
04/10/2019 5:23 PM
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Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 1,332
Randy M
veteran
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veteran
Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 1,332 |
AND IF ANYBODY EVER FINDS A SWEET SPOT FOR XTP's PLEASE REPORT BACK. About 11 fps as measured by the speed at which they fell out of my hands and into the trash can.
The meat won't fry if the lead don't fly.
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Re: Cast or expanding for large big game???
[Re: Whitworth]
#198834
04/10/2019 5:31 PM
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Joined: Dec 2017
Posts: 258
Jeff460
enthusiast
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enthusiast
Joined: Dec 2017
Posts: 258 |
I noted what you have stated and given you status for doing so in my earlier post. So you say 1400 fps is your ceiling with a hard-cast bullet. I saw on a post that you can cast bullets out of zinc and that creates a HARD cast bullet. What would that make you think of? I researched it but zinc, while very hard, is just 63% the weight of an equal amount of lead. And less weight means less momentum. That means no matter its attribute of no deformation at high velocities, I am not interested. Not to mention that zinc cannot be used in any other furnace crucible because it is not compatible with lead in the least. A .001 smaller zinc bullet than the size of the bore would sure clean the lead out of a gun barrel. Just shoot one or two shots out of your barrel and POOF the lead is all gone.
Last edited by Jeff460; 04/11/2019 1:38 AM.
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Re: Cast or expanding for large big game???
[Re: Jeff460]
#198835
04/10/2019 5:41 PM
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Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 4,861
Franchise
Distinguished Expert
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Distinguished Expert
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 4,861 |
The best way to honestly see what bullet does what, is to test them yourselves...I learned a lot over the years shooting different animals of different sizes, using different bullets..first hand experience is the best teacher
The Eyes are Useless, When The Mind Is Blind
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Re: Cast or expanding for large big game???
[Re: Vance in AK.]
#198837
04/10/2019 6:33 PM
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Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 366
JDK
enthusiast
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enthusiast
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 366 |
Poor Hornady XTPs To be honest, the 180 gr. .357 XTP's seem to be made for the .357 Maximum. Works well on deer!
John
But for the grace of God, there, I go.
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Re: Cast or expanding for large big game???
[Re: JDK]
#198838
04/10/2019 7:04 PM
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Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 9,836
Whitworth
Shootist
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Shootist
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 9,836 |
Poor Hornady XTPs To be honest, the 180 gr. .357 XTP's seem to be made for the .357 Maximum. Works well on deer! But not on anything else! LOL!
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Re: Cast or expanding for large big game???
[Re: Whitworth]
#198839
04/10/2019 7:54 PM
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Joined: Aug 2017
Posts: 1,821
45MAN
Pooh-Bah
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Pooh-Bah
Joined: Aug 2017
Posts: 1,821 |
I DO NOT BELIEVE THAT THE PROBLEMS WITH XTP's ARE A WORKMANSHIP ISSUE, RATHER I BELIEVE IT IS AN ISSUE WITH ANY REVOLVER BULLET THAT RELIES ON POST IMPACT DEFORMITY FOR ITS PERFORMANCE, ESPECIALLY IN A SMALL RANGE OF AVAILABLE VELOCITIES. PRESENTLY THERE ARE FEW EXPANDING REVOLVER BULLETS THAT CAN PERFORM WELL AND PREDICTABLY OVER A BROAD VELOCITY SPAN, THE AFRAMES BEING ONE OF THE FEW. I HAVE ALWAYS FELT LIKE I WOULD LIKE KNOW WHAT MY BULLET WILL LOOK LIKE AFTER IMPACT BEFORE I SHOOT IT, BUT THE AFRAMES DO PROVIDE AN ALTERNATIVE TO ABSOLUTE BULLET INTEGRITY BECAUSE THEY ARE VERY PREDICTABLE IN THEIR POST IMPACT DEFORMITY. I HAVE KILLED A LOT OF ANIMALS WITH XTP's BUT NOW JUST CONSIDER THEM TO BE PRACTICE BULLETS. FOR USE ON GAME, I AM WILLING TO PAY A LITTLE MORE PER BULLET AS I WANT TO ELIMINATE AS MANY VARIABLES IN BULLET PERFORMANCE AS POSSIBLE.
"ADAPT OR DIE". I USE ALL CAPS, NOT BECAUSE I AM YELLING, BUT BECAUSE IT IS AN OLD HABIT FROM MY ARMY DAYS, PLUS IT IS EASIER TO TYPE AND READ.
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Re: Cast or expanding for large big game???
[Re: Jeff460]
#198846
04/11/2019 1:54 AM
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Joined: Jun 2010
Posts: 3,020
tradmark
Shooting Expert
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Shooting Expert
Joined: Jun 2010
Posts: 3,020 |
At 1300 fps you do reach as deep a penetration-level as the higher velocities do and with less recoil. You may go up in velocity but the returns for a hard-cast bullet in terms of increased penetration is not appreciable really. I agree with that sweet-spot designation. The 480 Ruger is an example. It has adequate power and penetration with appropriate bullets for anything that walks, crawls or approaches with menace and mayhem in mind, but is running bullets 100 fps or more LESS than the same in a 475 Linebaugh. So I would really concentrate on good bullet choices as well as hitting the vitals, because that is a never-changing requirement. Faster the bullet if it maintains its integrity = more penetration but also more damage. I can say with absolute certainty that running any monolithic solid or barnes/afeame at over 2000fps does remarkeably more damage and penetrates deeper than the same bullet fired out of a 454. Also out penetrates anything from the linebaugh creations as well. More damage too. This equals much better performance on game. I can provide the pictures of the game ive shot to make that statement as well. And lots of em.
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Re: Cast or expanding for large big game???
[Re: tradmark]
#198849
04/11/2019 2:08 AM
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Joined: Dec 2017
Posts: 258
Jeff460
enthusiast
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enthusiast
Joined: Dec 2017
Posts: 258 |
Yes I agree. But dead is dead and humane killing is what we are all after. The higher velocities and bullets you refer to are not hard-cast as my comments were grounded and referring to as to velocity limits or more readily capable without deformation, up to 1400 fps. But I digress. Go in peace and run your special made bullet types as fast as you can. More Power to You!! But I will push only so far and concentrate not on pure velocity but rather more weight and unquestionable bullet construction integrity for the velocities I address.
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Re: Cast or expanding for large big game???
[Re: Jeff460]
#198853
04/11/2019 12:33 PM
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Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 9,836
Whitworth
Shootist
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Shootist
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 9,836 |
Yes I agree. But dead is dead and humane killing is what we are all after. The higher velocities and bullets you refer to are not hard-cast as my comments were grounded and referring to as to velocity limits or more readily capable without deformation, up to 1400 fps. But I digress. Go in peace and run your special made bullet types as fast as you can. More Power to You!! But I will push only so far and concentrate not on pure velocity but rather more weight and unquestionable bullet construction integrity for the velocities I address. The OP was asking what we collectively think he should use, so obviously the discussion is covering all types of bullets. You mentioned a 1,300 to 1,800 fps window for cast bullets in a previous post, but that velocity ceiling is too high for the material, but not too high for quality expanding bullets or monolithic bullets. Have you tested any of these velocity windows on game? I think you might be pleasantly surprised at how well A-frames (for example) kill when pushed hard and placed well. You have an X-frame which is a good candidate for higher velocities and great for testing/experimentation. There is nothing less humane than a slow death, and I personally always strive for a quick finish and that is why I like to push a little harder.
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Re: Cast or expanding for large big game???
[Re: Whitworth]
#198854
04/11/2019 1:13 PM
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Joined: Dec 2017
Posts: 258
Jeff460
enthusiast
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enthusiast
Joined: Dec 2017
Posts: 258 |
I mentioned the study was using rifles and handguns later and including 458 magnum rifles. I referenced the study parameters as I faintly remembered. I now believe it was a high of 2100 fps as the upper window of when penetration would resume to take off and be added. The window was from around 1300 to 1400 fps with any bullet, not just hard cast, to the rifle velocities of 2100 fps that diminished penetration gains were being seen. It was a phenom I observed empirically. I want short range hunting like shotguns and revolvers. I am not for all out X-frame velocities. I shoot 3 inch 12 gauge not 3 1/2. I shoot open sight revolvers and keep shots inside 50 yards as a rule. So the platform is a 500 S&W shooting 500 JRH and a 460 S&W using 454 Casull. The all-out can be done but I am not going all-out because I choose not to, right now.
Last edited by Jeff460; 04/11/2019 1:15 PM. Reason: Clarification change
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Re: Cast or expanding for large big game???
[Re: Jeff460]
#198870
04/11/2019 4:41 PM
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Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 4,861
Franchise
Distinguished Expert
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Distinguished Expert
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 4,861 |
Have you yourself Jeff ever put any of these experimental results to a test on game, with a handgun? Just curious...we all have read such data, but it is a little different when you, yourself put the "lab results" to work on live game with a handgun...I'm just curious
The Eyes are Useless, When The Mind Is Blind
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Re: Cast or expanding for large big game???
[Re: Franchise]
#198872
04/11/2019 4:53 PM
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Joined: Dec 2017
Posts: 258
Jeff460
enthusiast
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enthusiast
Joined: Dec 2017
Posts: 258 |
I work 71 hours per week and every weekend. I have done penetration tests but no kills of anything approaching 1000 pounds or more. But preparation is half the fun. So are you inviting me to a hunt? I am up for it. If I am not at work...
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