Those are rifle bullets and generally there are very good choice and many more than those offered for revolvers. That said, we have come a long way in bullet construction and technology.

Here`s my 2 cents on the cast vs jacketed bullet topic. I once hunted two large (300lb+) boar with my then new FA`s 475 to test the cast and jacketed ammo I bought. I was using Grizzly Ammo`s 400gr JFP bullet,made by Hawk, at a listed 1300FPS and Buffalo Bore`s 440gr WNGC cast bullet at 1325FPS. The first boar was shot at 40yds with the cast bullet that broke the top of the left leg, caught the top of the heart and exited. He ran in a circle and dropped. The 2nd boar was walking and I gut shot him at 30yds with the 400gr JFP. I believe the only reason I did not have to chase him far was because of the extreme damage caused by the weight and size of this bullet which allowed me to place two more 400gr JFP`s and finish this large boar.What I learned the most that day was if you put the bullet in the right place the animal is yours no matter if its cast of jacketed....This hunt is titled "Good Day/ Bad Day" and can be found in the handgun hunting articles....

As to Glenn's elk hunt, at what point in the cows death, did Glenn's bullet fail ? Sounds like good performance to me ! On both sides of the gun !

Folks,

Here are my 4 cents. I have over 20 years experience as an emergency medicine physician, civilian, military, and law enforcement practice and over 40 years as a handgun hunter. I lecture gunshot pathophysiology ( abnormal system function ) on regular basis. I have studied gs wounds from most weapons ( air, etc., no - no rail guns )in humans, and variety of animal species. I'm not tooting my horn, so please bear with me.
Shock has many definitions; however, we are interested in a general definition and a few specific definitions ( in lay terms ). Here goes!
1. shock: decreased perfusion ( blood flow and hence oxygen ) to vital ( required for life )body systems due 1. pump ( heart ) failure, 2. blood loss ( empty tank ) 3. disruption of the conduction system ( arteries and veins ).
2. neurological shock: decrease or loss of nervous function ( brain, spinal cord, major nerves ) due to #1 (shock) or disruption, direct injury to those tissues.
3. hydrostatic shock: this is the one that gets bantered about on a regular basis: (shock) #1 due to the force imparted to the body by the rapid dispersion of body fluids outward from the primary or permanent wound cavity (bullet hole) forming a secondary or temporary wound cavity. This is demonstrated by "bloodshot" meat.
Hydrostatic shock is not thought to be a factor in "low velocity" projectiles (notice I didn't say handguns, long guns, etc.) Let's face it, a lot of what we shoot are "hand" rifles from a ballistic standpoint. Low velocity projectiles (less than approx 2,000 fps.) depend upon the disruption of body tissues (bullet hole) and "bleeding" for their ability to "stop" or "kill." Hence a "bigger" hole is "always" better! (greater chance of disrupting vital tissues). The prior sentence also implies sufficient penetration to reach and disrupt those systems. Therefore, the use of expanding bullets; however, as they expand the lose the ability to penetrate as the frontal diameter increases. Sooo, if you start out bigger, the better.
For "high" velocity projectiles, >2,000 fps, depth of penetration, a partial function of initial velocity, is dependent more upon bullet construction.
Bullet placement is a critical factor in wounding and should never be down played.
Therefore, if made it through ALL of that BS, whether a projectile is jacketed, cast, hard cast, monolithic is more dependent upon the following factors: caliber (initial or expanded), "striking" or impact velocity (NOT muzzle velocity), bullet construction, AND shot placement.
I apologize for the long diatribe, but that should help describe wound ballistics.

Regards,
DOc

Vance in Ak,

To answer your question about soft nose cast, they are nothing new, many cast bullet shooters have used them for years with great success. The great part about them is, you can adjust how much expansion you want once you get your velocity/accuracy where you want it. Just practice with your normal slugs & save the softnose for serious hunting. Perhaps its the only handgun bullet out there that you can make work for any situation you encounter. Want more expansion, use more lead, want less expansion, use less pure lead.
Ross Seyfried wrote an article in Handloader magazine a few years ago & I've pretty much followed his instructions for making them although there are others ways of doing it. First I had to weld up a small piece of 2" pipe to hold my pure lead, this has a small hook on it so I can hang it down into my furnace, you have pure lead in the pipe & straight wheelweights in the furnace. Get your mould hot by making several casts with the straight wheelweights, then, using a cut down 380 case with a small wire handle you dip your pure lead out of the piece of pipe, pour quickly into your hot mould & then top it off with your regular alloy.
You need a 5 gallon bucket of water between your feet, this has a rag punched down in the water & it has a hole in it, you drop the bullet onto the submerged rag, it rolls to the center & drops to the bottom of your bucket, the rag breaks the fall of the hot slug so it doesn' deform.
You don't need a lot of them, just use them for when you are actually hunting. Its a good idea to size & lube them within a few hours after casting as they become quite hard after a day or so. You will notice a few small wrinkles where the pure lead & the wheelweights bond, this isn't a problem, they will easily shoot within your group of staight WW slugs.
As a reminder, we are talking about straight wall pistol calibers here, not single shots, thats totally different, I have nothing against single shots, I used them for years, it just kind of lost its shine for me, I don't own a single one, or a rifle or a shotgun.
Its best with the softnose if you don't pour so much pure lead that you get part way down the full diameter of the slug, its not needed & might cause some leading if it contacts the lands.
These slugs are pretty much fool proof, you just experiment with how much expansion you need, the hardened back part will work its magic & penetrate like a normal cast slug after the front expands & sometimes smears off. In Glenn's case they stayed together & penetrated completely giving wonderful 1 1/2" expansion. Its amazing how wonderful they work & how simple they are to make.
I don't recommend using a 357 magnum for deer but have used them on a few occasions & as long as you limit your shots, say from a stand or blind so you get good broadside shots they will work fine, adding 30-35 grs of softnose gives a great deal of expansion & bumps the 357 up quite a bit as far as results are concerned.

This is the lung damage on my cow elk 2 weeks ago with the WFN, she didn't take a single step, the slug took out both shoulders & exited, this from a lowly 41 magnum at less than 1100 fps.



Montana whitetail doe taken 3 weeks ago, shot was about 25 yds as she ran past me broadside, hammered off 2 fast shots & then a 3 as she disappeared, I found her in the tall grass, she had covered maybe 25 yds, one shot had hit her through the front shoulders, a second shot when through both lungs, the 3rd shot had missed as she ran straight away, both shots exited. This was with a Ruger 44 special using the 250 Keith & 7.5 grs of Unique.



Cow elk, 2 years ago with a Ruger 45, 260 gr cast slug at 168 yds, iron sights, you can see a lot of blood, she covered about 30 yds. The shot took out both lungs & exited.



My best bear (6'9") using a Ruger 10" 44, iron sights at 88 yds, spot & stalk, the slug was a 250 gr Keith, the bear flipped over backwards at the shot & started tumbling down the ridge towards me, I gave it a second one that wasn't needed, if they are wiggling you keep pounding. Complete penetration & over in 5-6 seconds.



2X3 muley buck, shot was 108 yds, iron sights with a 10" 357 Maximum, Keith softnose cast, the buck took 4-5 steps backwards at the shot & dropped.



Lungs of the 2X3 muely with the 357 Maximum, 173 gr Keith cast.



Bull moose, 45 yds offhand, Ruger 480 & a 370 gr softnose cast, he ran down hill 20-25 yds & piled up, complete penetration.



Wyoming buck 2008, he was facing me at just under 100 yds straight on, the shot took him in the center chest & exited in front of the left hind quarter, gun was a Ruger Bisley 41 magnum & a 230 gr Keith slug, he ran 35-40 yds, down in 5 seconds. You can see the entry hole.



Dick

Sixshot,

Do you recall when the Seyfreid article was published, month? issue?

Thanks,

Doc

Hello Doc, I don't recall but I'll find it & get back to you, thinking it was back in 03-04, I can dig in up.

Dick

Dick,

Thank you, I found it, Handloader 222, April-May 2003. I have several old "composite" molds by Lyman, NEI, and LBT, where the nose portion is cast in a separate mold and then placed in the final mold where the base of the bullet is poured. Additionally, I have had great results with annealing just the nose portion of a cast bullet, by standing up in a baking pan filled with water, to the appropriate height, and heating the noses with a butane torch till they turn a slight blue tint and letting them air cool. Works like a "poorman's" partition on game.

Doc

Doc, glad you found it, very informative article, as are all of Ross's articles, I'd listen to him if he was describing a chess match over the radio. Same with John Barsness, even though I'm not a rifle hunter his stuff is very good.
The other method I referred to was the slugs in the water that you mention, that for me at least seems a lot more hit & miss, I'd have the sharp edges melted the way I handle a torch. The casting method for me works great, very few rejects once the mould is hot.
Been spending a lot of time in the Dillon area the last couple of years chasing those neat little whitetails, we just buy doe tags over the counter.

Dick

I like a few others have mentioned have limited experience with either of them on game.I have taken 3 white-tails with handguns all in 44mag caliber.The first @ 25 yrds with a winchester sp,quartering away,drt,but jacket and core seperated,core going to the right shoulder blade and stopping and jacket shredding the left lung,niether piece exited.The next @76yrds neck shot with nosler partition straight through,drt.The third about 12 yrds nosler partition top of left shoulder exited middle of right shoulder,drt.I have been hunting like a mad man this year with cast,with no luck.I personally switched due to accuracy.This post has given me food for thought so let me leave you with this.
If an intruder was to come into your house and you were to have to shoot him would you give him one well placed shot or shoot until he dropped?As for me and mine we will shoot as long as we have ammo in the gun,can make effective hits,or they(intruders or animals) hit the ground.

Doc, I have an article "Cast Soft Nose Bullets" by Ross Seyfried from Guns & Ammo, June 1989, page 64. I just sent you a PM.

Gregg, I have that article electronically probably if you need it(if yours isn't already a pdf). I love a lot of the old Seyfried articles.

Thank you Glenn. I have a disc with about 44 of Ross's Articles on it that I got from our mutual good buddy.

It is great reading!

I sort of figured that but I wanted to make sure. I have all of them on my laptop also and they make for great reading material in airports, airplanes, and hotels when I'm traveling