FA style recessed chambers for custom Bisley?
#86815
05/01/2011 1:17 PM
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Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 51
Matabele
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Hi all,
Im thinking about having a custom 5 shot 475 Bisley made up for me. Im starting to think about options and was wondering about the recessed chamber mouths, like you see on Freedom Arms guns.
Can anyone tell me what the advantages and disadvantages are of this? Is it a good idea?
Thanks!
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Re: FA style recessed chambers for custom Bisley?
[Re: Matabele]
#86832
05/01/2011 4:52 PM
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Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 976
doc with a glock
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Mat,
The recessed chamber heads ( I am assuming you mean towards the back of the cylinder ) were initially cut when brass was made in the "balloon" head configuration ( the brass was folded over to form the case head ). This would protect the shooter in the event of a case head failure, the weak point of the brass ( at least that was the rationale ). Cases have been made with solid heads for many years; hence, the need for case head recesses is not. Some manufacturers have maintained the practice ( Freedom Arms ). Again, "I am assuming this is what you meant. Hope this helps.
Doc
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Re: FA style recessed chambers for custom Bisley?
[Re: Matabele]
#86834
05/01/2011 5:10 PM
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Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 9,836
Whitworth
Shootist
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This is a bit difficult to explain, but I will try.
If you have non-recessed chambers and load one round and fire it (a heavy recoiling pistol like a .454 or .475) with no other cases in the cylinder to support the loading gate to keep it from flexing as far, you may eventually damage the loading gate. If the cylinder is recessed and you have no other cases in the cylinder than the one you are firing, the loading gate can flex no further than a non-recessed cylinder with a full load of cases. It closes the gap in other words, meaning you can shoot it one round in the cylinder at a time without any negative consequences.
Freedom counter bores their cylinders as does Magnum Research on their BFRs. Some custom smiths do, some don't. You won't get a custom SA revolver from Jack Huntington that isn't counter-bored, nor from Hamilton Bowen if I can recall.
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Re: FA style recessed chambers for custom Bisley?
[Re: Whitworth]
#86836
05/01/2011 5:59 PM
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Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 976
doc with a glock
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Whit,
good point, I hadn't thought about that.
Doc
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Re: FA style recessed chambers for custom Bisley?
[Re: doc with a glock]
#86839
05/01/2011 7:47 PM
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Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 51
Matabele
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Thanks for the replies guys, thats just the info I was looking for. Yep Doc we're on the same page, wasnt sure how to describe it but we got there!
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Re: FA style recessed chambers for custom Bisley?
[Re: Matabele]
#86841
05/01/2011 8:04 PM
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Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 765
wheelguns
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Sorry Whitworth some days i'm a little slow. Do you mean that the loading gate flexs forward toward the cylinder during recoil?
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Re: FA style recessed chambers for custom Bisley?
[Re: wheelguns]
#86843
05/01/2011 8:27 PM
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Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 9,836
Whitworth
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Sorry Whitworth some days i'm a little slow. Do you mean that the loading gate flexs forward toward the cylinder during recoil? That's exactly what I meant.
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Re: FA style recessed chambers for custom Bisley?
[Re: Whitworth]
#86855
05/02/2011 1:44 AM
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Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 7,655
wapitirod
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Thats an interesting theory I've never heard of before and if it were a real issue I'm sure Bowen, Linebaugh, and Reeder would be doing it or they would be doing warranty work all the time. I'm sure during recoil the gate may try to shift some as it's only held in place by a flat spring but that spring would break before a gate would actually flex. Not to mention I don't know a whole lot of people that only load one round. I suppose if you were on the bench you could but why? I'm sorry but that dosn't hold water. To stiffen it to where it would do anything the cylinder to gate clearance would have to be 0. I've heard about the brass issue mentioned above before but never that. I'm not saying I know everything as I am new to the business end but I own quite a few big bores and have never seen any indication of an issue there. Physics are physics and this dosn't add up, look at a gate spring and a gate and think about which would give first.
I won't be wronged. I won't be insulted. I won't be laid a-hand on. I don't do these things to other people, and I require the same from them. John Wayne-The Shootist
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Re: FA style recessed chambers for custom Bisley?
[Re: wapitirod]
#86863
05/02/2011 2:29 AM
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Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 7,655
wapitirod
Shootist
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by the way, Whitworth I'm not trying to hammer on you I just don't see it working that way. If it was Jack that told you that I don't know what his line of thinking is but unless I saw it on slow motion video I wouldn't believe it. If it was Jack I know he's an excellent smith and from what I've heard a really nice guy but like I said I just don't see it.
I won't be wronged. I won't be insulted. I won't be laid a-hand on. I don't do these things to other people, and I require the same from them. John Wayne-The Shootist
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Re: FA style recessed chambers for custom Bisley?
[Re: wapitirod]
#86867
05/02/2011 3:26 AM
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Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 4,155
Gregg Richter
Distinguished Expert
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A major consideration here is the distance from the cylinder face to the recoil shield or face (don't know the exact terminology.)
One of the reasons Freedom Arms counter bores the cylinder is to be able to decrease this distance and hence tightens up the cylinder opening, making a tighter and cleaner looking revolver as there is hardly any space showing there.
Try counter boring a standard Ruger cylinder without further mods and you will create a big problem of headspace.
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Re: FA style recessed chambers for custom Bisley?
[Re: Gregg Richter]
#86868
05/02/2011 3:54 AM
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Posts: 7,655
wapitirod
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it would have to be a special machined part which for me is something I don't do. I don't have the CNC equipment or the time to screw around with making my own cylinders so I've used a couple different types and I'd have to say I like the Bowen design the best but it's not recessed it's just a standard cylinder. I figure if it's good enough for the most elite gun builder in the country it will work for me.
I won't be wronged. I won't be insulted. I won't be laid a-hand on. I don't do these things to other people, and I require the same from them. John Wayne-The Shootist
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Re: FA style recessed chambers for custom Bisley?
[Re: wapitirod]
#86879
05/02/2011 11:16 AM
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Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 9,836
Whitworth
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Thats an interesting theory I've never heard of before and if it were a real issue I'm sure Bowen, Linebaugh, and Reeder would be doing it or they would be doing warranty work all the time. I'm sure during recoil the gate may try to shift some as it's only held in place by a flat spring but that spring would break before a gate would actually flex. Not to mention I don't know a whole lot of people that only load one round. I suppose if you were on the bench you could but why? I'm sorry but that dosn't hold water. To stiffen it to where it would do anything the cylinder to gate clearance would have to be 0. I've heard about the brass issue mentioned above before but never that. I'm not saying I know everything as I am new to the business end but I own quite a few big bores and have never seen any indication of an issue there. Physics are physics and this dosn't add up, look at a gate spring and a gate and think about which would give first. It's not a theory, it can happen. I have actually seen a couple of revolvers with this damage. It's not something that will necessarily happen, but it can and does. Again, it's not a scenario that often plays out because we all normally load up our revolvers with a full cylinder.
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Re: FA style recessed chambers for custom Bisley?
[Re: wapitirod]
#86880
05/02/2011 11:18 AM
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Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 9,836
Whitworth
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it would have to be a special machined part which for me is something I don't do. I don't have the CNC equipment or the time to screw around with making my own cylinders so I've used a couple different types and I'd have to say I like the Bowen design the best but it's not recessed it's just a standard cylinder. I figure if it's good enough for the most elite gun builder in the country it will work for me. You're not alone in that you don't make your own cylinders. Even John Linebaugh in the past has commisioned that part out -- don't know what he is doing nowadays, but many gun builders don't make their own cylinders. For a very long time, only a couple have made their own and they have made them for other gun builders.
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Re: FA style recessed chambers for custom Bisley?
[Re: Whitworth]
#86883
05/02/2011 12:34 PM
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Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 51
Matabele
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I got the following from Bowens website:
"The receivers are modified to accept oversize cylinders. The bolt notches of the 5-shot, unfluted cylinders fall between the chambers rather than over them where the chamber walls are thinnest. The longer cylinders accept cartridges loaded with longer, heavier bullets for superior hunting performance. Further, the cylinders feature free-wheeling ratchet and, where possible, recessed case heads to improve loading gate support."
So I guess its advisable on the heavy kickers where its possible. Rod if you are getting your cylinders from Bowen anyway, maybe mention the recessed case thing and he might be able to supply you, cant hurt to ask.
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Re: FA style recessed chambers for custom Bisley?
[Re: wapitirod]
#86884
05/02/2011 12:45 PM
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Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 1,097
jwp475
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by the way, Whitworth I'm not trying to hammer on you I just don't see it working that way. If it was Jack that told you that I don't know what his line of thinking is but unless I saw it on slow motion video I wouldn't believe it. If it was Jack I know he's an excellent smith and from what I've heard a really nice guy but like I said I just don't see it. I recieved the frist 475L that Hamilton Bowen built> I had the revolver in time for the 1988 hunting season. Hamilton advised me to never shoot the revolver without cases in front of the loading gate. Hamilton stated that to do so in a non-counter sunk cylinder, combined with the heavy recoil of the 475 that damage to the load gate would and would occur. Hamilton told me that he had repaired some that this happened to
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Re: FA style recessed chambers for custom Bisley?
[Re: Gregg Richter]
#86885
05/02/2011 12:46 PM
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Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 1,097
jwp475
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A major consideration here is the distance from the cylinder face to the recoil shield or face (don't know the exact terminology.)
One of the reasons Freedom Arms counter bores the cylinder is to be able to decrease this distance and hence tightens up the cylinder opening, making a tighter and cleaner looking revolver as there is hardly any space showing there.
Try counter boring a standard Ruger cylinder without further mods and you will create a big problem of headspace. Your sir are correct
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Re: FA style recessed chambers for custom Bisley?
[Re: jwp475]
#86902
05/03/2011 1:33 AM
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Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 1,642
BBwheelgunner
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Yeah I have heard of that happening with the loading gate also. not witnessed it myself but after reading about it i at least gave it a little thought where applicable.
coulda been the Bowen website for all I remember.
"If you are going to go through all the trouble to put a hole in something, why not make it a big one?"
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Re: FA style recessed chambers for custom Bisley?
[Re: BBwheelgunner]
#86903
05/03/2011 1:57 AM
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Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 2,434
H2OBUG
Pooh-Bah
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About 1/2 of my S&W pistols have recessed cylinders.
If it jams force it! If it breaks it needed replacing anyway.
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Re: FA style recessed chambers for custom Bisley?
[Re: H2OBUG]
#86905
05/03/2011 3:22 AM
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Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 9,608
s4s4u
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I guess if you load 'em up when you load 'em up, you don't have to worry. Right? I do like to be able to glance at the side of a revolver and quickly see if there's any in there. It does make for a pretty gun tho.
Rod, too.
Short cuts often lead to long recoveries.
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Re: FA style recessed chambers for custom Bisley?
[Re: Matabele]
#86907
05/03/2011 5:26 AM
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Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 7,655
wapitirod
Shootist
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Shootist
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Posts: 7,655 |
I got the following from Bowens website:
"The receivers are modified to accept oversize cylinders. The bolt notches of the 5-shot, unfluted cylinders fall between the chambers rather than over them where the chamber walls are thinnest. The longer cylinders accept cartridges loaded with longer, heavier bullets for superior hunting performance. Further, the cylinders feature free-wheeling ratchet and, where possible, recessed case heads to improve loading gate support."
So I guess its advisable on the heavy kickers where its possible. Rod if you are getting your cylinders from Bowen anyway, maybe mention the recessed case thing and he might be able to supply you, cant hurt to ask.
Yep I'll ask him about them but when I talked to him before about the different cylinders the recessed design didn't come up. I'll also get the story on this gate issue because it still seems strange that the spring wouldn't give before the gate but like has been said if you load them all there isn't a problem and even if you break a gate it's a very cheap 15min fix.
I won't be wronged. I won't be insulted. I won't be laid a-hand on. I don't do these things to other people, and I require the same from them. John Wayne-The Shootist
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Re: FA style recessed chambers for custom Bisley?
[Re: wapitirod]
#86910
05/03/2011 11:24 AM
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Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 1,097
jwp475
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old hand
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I got the following from Bowens website:
"The receivers are modified to accept oversize cylinders. The bolt notches of the 5-shot, unfluted cylinders fall between the chambers rather than over them where the chamber walls are thinnest. The longer cylinders accept cartridges loaded with longer, heavier bullets for superior hunting performance. Further, the cylinders feature free-wheeling ratchet and, where possible, recessed case heads to improve loading gate support."
So I guess its advisable on the heavy kickers where its possible. Rod if you are getting your cylinders from Bowen anyway, maybe mention the recessed case thing and he might be able to supply you, cant hurt to ask.
Yep I'll ask him about them but when I talked to him before about the different cylinders the recessed design didn't come up. I'll also get the story on this gate issue because it still seems strange that the spring wouldn't give before the gate but like has been said if you load them all there isn't a problem and even if you break a gate it's a very cheap 15min fix. WHat if one is on a remote fly in hunt n Alaska, not good to have a loading gate that you can't open
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Re: FA style recessed chambers for custom Bisley?
[Re: jwp475]
#86914
05/03/2011 12:32 PM
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Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 9,608
s4s4u
Shootist
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Shootist
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Does anybody actually load one cylinder only, unless you are playing roulette!?!
I had heard that empty holes can compromise the cylinder's strength. Is there any truth to this?
Rod, too.
Short cuts often lead to long recoveries.
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Re: FA style recessed chambers for custom Bisley?
[Re: s4s4u]
#86934
05/03/2011 3:34 PM
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Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 808
minnesotahunter
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"I do like to be able to glance at the side of a revolver and quickly see if there's any in there."
I was thinking the same thing. I do it all the time before dry-fire practice.
I have loaded only 1 or 2 or 3 shots when I'm coming to the end of my ammo at the range if it's all I have left.
This is a very useful thread, as I will always remember to keep the other chambers full of empties from now on.
For some reason I can't seem to go home without shooting all the ammo I have for the day!!
MN
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Re: FA style recessed chambers for custom Bisley?
[Re: jwp475]
#86940
05/03/2011 8:02 PM
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Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 7,655
wapitirod
Shootist
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Shootist
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I got the following from Bowens website:
"The receivers are modified to accept oversize cylinders. The bolt notches of the 5-shot, unfluted cylinders fall between the chambers rather than over them where the chamber walls are thinnest. The longer cylinders accept cartridges loaded with longer, heavier bullets for superior hunting performance. Further, the cylinders feature free-wheeling ratchet and, where possible, recessed case heads to improve loading gate support."
So I guess its advisable on the heavy kickers where its possible. Rod if you are getting your cylinders from Bowen anyway, maybe mention the recessed case thing and he might be able to supply you, cant hurt to ask.
Yep I'll ask him about them but when I talked to him before about the different cylinders the recessed design didn't come up. I'll also get the story on this gate issue because it still seems strange that the spring wouldn't give before the gate but like has been said if you load them all there isn't a problem and even if you break a gate it's a very cheap 15min fix. WHat if one is on a remote fly in hunt n Alaska, not good to have a loading gate that you can't open If your on a fly in hunt and load one round without it being your last round to keep your ass from becoming a rump roast for a grizz then you deserve whatever happens to you. From what I've heard so far about how many times this has happened I've heard of just as many frame failures so I don't know that it's a real serious issue. Like s4s4u said load them all up and avoid the problem all together and it is no longer an issue. My guess is that the gates that failed are just like the frames that failed, the both failed under the stress of big bore loads but the problem started back at the ruger factory in the casting and machining process.
I won't be wronged. I won't be insulted. I won't be laid a-hand on. I don't do these things to other people, and I require the same from them. John Wayne-The Shootist
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