I appreciate your tone about this Hitman and this is where I wanted this to go in the first place. I'm not saying the energy it's self is the killer but I have to disagree on the energy transfer. It's no different than if you get hit by a car or a person, the energy from the car or the person is transferred to you but even that is splitting hairs on what I was getting at and is only a portion of the issue. I contend that the more energy is transferred if the bullet opens correctly and thus the internal shockwave will be greater. This dosn't even have much to do with wound channels although the wound channel will be larger if the bullet works properly.

What I and others are looking at is that when the bullet opens and deceleration is increased the internal shock wave is much greater and I have on a first hand basis seen vitals in tact but turned to mush from the internal shock wave. This is more prevalent in rifle kills but also applies to handguns. I know there are two lines of thinking on this but I think I'm right on this one.

As far as cast goes I never said they wouldn't kill which is why I do have some loaded but figure that even in a general sense if a .500" hole is good a 3/4" hole is better. I also acknowledged that cast will generally out penetrate most jacketed bullets especially at slower velocities. I will not and have not denied that hard cast are more predictable in their behaviour from some jacketed but jacketed bullet technology is not what it was and that is one of the thing I'm trying to show.

In Peter Capsticks books I read about bullets "cratering", basicly expanding and coming apart on animals such as lions without so much as penetrating the hide or if they did then barely. I've shot three large animals with an average soft point bullet from Hornady, nothing special but these bullets doubled in size and penetrated like there was no tomorrow.

First was an Aisian water buffalo weighing in at about 2K. I was shooting a 458 Lott running a 500gr rnsp at about 2300fps and this was before the interlock design. I shot the bull uphill at about 60yds and the bullet penetrated almost 3 feet before shattering the spine. I still have the bullet and it's in suprisingly good condition. It stayed in tact for the most part but doubled in diameter. The second was the same load on a 700lb Feral hog and this time it was a hard quarting shot that penetrated from just in front of the left hind leg and was found in the shield in front of the right front leg.

The last was a couple years ago when I shot a Roosevelt bull, about 800-900lbs with a mild 45-70 load out of my Marlin 1895. The load was a 350gr Hornady rnsp running about 1850-1900fps. I blew the first shot while he was moving and blew a hole through his mid section, the exit hole was about 1.5" and it turned the liver to jello, the shock of the shot put him down but when I got up on him he gimped into some heavy brush so I took a texas heart shot, the bullet penetrated the widest part of the hip which was about 8" of bone and it looked like someone drilled a hole through it. I found the jacket in the guts but core was in the brisket. The next shot was as he turned quartering away and it went through a rib, destroyed the heart, went through another rib and then embedded itself about 1.5" into the ball of the opposite shoulder. I had to use a chisel to get it out. This was within the capabilities of single shot pistols and not far from some revolvers.

If these had been the bullets of yesteryear I would not have had the results I did. I'll say it again both bullets have their pro's and cons. I was just reading the post on the 357 bullets and Doc Rogers was talking about the shock value of the hollow and soft points and he probably has more game with a handgun than any of us. Hard Cast work but so do jacketed and if the topics on the other posts would stay with "I used this and this happened" or "I like this one because of this" and not criticize eachothers posts it would be different. I will always tell people about my experiences with Hard Cast which to date are negative, jwp apparently had some XTP's not work properly so he's within his rights to say so but when you start attacking someone elses post it's not right.

As for my science I don't believe it is flawed and like I said I've had alot of book and practical application of applied physics so I think I'm right on but if it can be disproved then fine I'm big enough to admit it. As for McPhersons book jwp said it, it's the only book with these studies which means it hasn't been confirmed by follow up studies by independent physicist or ballisticians which in the scientific world makes it incomplete at best. I also look at the books title which is still off topic, we aren't talking about penetration, maybe there is more in this book and maybe I will read it but it dosn't change the basic principles I brought up.

Once again I'm not trying to convert anyone but just to get people to think for themselves. Just because I say or one of the other guys says it or one scientist says something it dosn't make it so. If you look at anything in the scientific world you will find differing views between scientist and the only constants are the basics laws of Physics, two of which I quoted.

I've seen way too much idol worship going on and just because someone has made a name for themselves in one part or another of this business does not mean they are right about everything and to follow them blindly is insanity but yet it happens on a regular basis. I may not yet be as recognized as most in the world of gun building as I'm a relative new comer but that dosn't mean I now or ever will always have the right answer. We are all human which means we are all foulable by nature, the difference is whether someone is open minded enough to learn and big enough to admit they are wrong if it comes to it and I am both.

In my prior occupations I managed people and trained apprentices and there were times I would learn from the apprentices but only because I was willing to listen and be open minded. Just because I was in the top tier in my field didn't mean I knew it all and the only way to get to and stay at the top of anything is to continue to learn and stay open minded to where that knowledge comes from.