hunting with cast bullits

Looking at using cast for this year deers season in my 44 bisley.
Looking at a 275-300 gr
any thoughts or load recommendations?

In my 44 Bisley, I use a cast 300 gr bullet over a healthy dose of H-110. It's a hammer. And very accurate. Granted, here in Texas, our deer are more like over-sized rabbits, but I intend on using this exact setup next year for Elk. Bottom line, I think you will like it.

-Randy

I like 110
What 300 grain bullet do you use?
Do you get any expansion?

Double Tap Ammo produces a really nice 320 grain WFN that works really well and is very accurate out of my revolvers. I too prefer 296.....

Cast Performance 300 grain WFNGC

Oh and not sure on penetration. I've never found a bullet in an animal. I doubt it though, but at these slower speeds, that's what I like about cast bullets. 'Though and through' penetration and a big hole as is.

You don't say what sixgun you are using but any of the 250-300 gr slugs at 1000 fps or so will handle any deer on the planet with correct shot placement, & for sure you will get complete penetration. Oops, I see you're using a Bisley, great choice!

Dick

The .44 is fantastic for deer with about any cast boolit. The 265 gr RD with 22 gr of 296, 300 to 320 gr LBT's with 21.5 gr of 296.
Lee makes a great 310 gr mold.
These are not max loads but are the most accurate from a Ruger.
One thing Whit, other friends and I do is to use the Fed 150 primer instead of a magnum primer. Mag primers will triple group size because primer pressure will move the boolit out before a good burn is started. Each boolit moving different results in a different powder capacity for each shot.
Most boolits will shoot 1" at 50 yards or less. The little RD will do 3/4" and 1-1/4" at 100 from bags. It is a tumble lube boolit but I use Felix lube on it. I do not like Alox.
Bioman bought a new SBH Hunter, I installed an Ultra Dot on it and he was shooting 1/2" groups at 50 while sighting in using a 330 gr WLNGC boolit that I made a mold for. It uses 21 gr of 296 and I shot a 3 shot group with it at 200 yards that measured 1-5/16".
My boolits are cast from WW metal and water dropped. All are death to deer.
Here is the RD. I was hitting low so I aimed higher for the last shot.

Then my 330 gr at 200 yards during a drop test.

Thats some great shooting Jim,Ive been wondering wether to use cast or 240 gr xtp,both shoot real well out of my sbhh,this will be my first season handgun hunting for deer so being kind of undecided about which to use.Guess eather will work.

Yes Dick, you are correct but I have found the slower boolit needs a tad of expansion. Take it to 1300 or just above and it needs none as long as the meplat is decent. Go higher in velocity and some expansion is then needed again to slow it in the animal and impart more damage.
But you know that, I don't have to mention it to you but you can teach a whole lot here.
You really need to write books and articles. You have a gift.
Me? I am an old cantankerous S.O.B. that is always in trouble for telling the truth!

Ah yes, but there are three sides to every story.....yours, mine, and the truth.......

The 240 XTP just has to be the most accurate bullet made for the .44. 24 gr of 296 and a Fed 150 primer.
However it opens too fast and the three deer I shot had poor blood trails and I recovered all the bullets. It really does work better at .44 special velocities.
The 300 gr XTP would be my choice first with 20.5 gr of 296 and a Fed 150 if buying bullets.
Next would be the LBT style WLN or WFN boolits, then the RNFP like the Lee 310 gr.
I just do not like Keith boolits because of accuracy problems in that the gun needs to be perfect and I do mean perfect.
A good cast from the .44 will put meat on the table. Use my loads and don't look back. My loads work in all .44 mags.

That equals one side because you know the truth.

The problem is that the red section is not the truth and is not at all my experience. If it were the truth then everyone would have the same problem and they do not. You are aparently misinterpreting the results.

Let's let Dick come in with his opinion.

No one is stopping Dick from anything, but your claim defies logic and all known terminal ballistics

Since I hunt only deer, it is based on experience in the field, not from books.
Hard and slow cuts a hole. Add some velocity and internal damage increases. Go too fast with the same hardness and you again have a hole punch with needed energy wasted out the other side.
Perfect energy in the right place at the right time for the size of the animal which in my case is deer.
Change the alloy and all velocities work.
Throw the book in the trash can.
The 1300 to 1350 fps perfect position I have is based on hard boolits of about 22 BHN or more.
JWP, if you are shooting 12 to 14 BHN boolits you have no idea what I am talking about because what you use will work.
The .44 is in the right position to use hard and accurate boolits. So is the .475 and the .500 JRH.
The .45 Colt is better with a little softer and so is the .454.
Even the .44 will work better with a little softer on animals but my loads are based on accuracy first and that might escape you.
Come clean, what hardness boolits do you shoot?
Seems that Dick loves a hard boolit for accuracy above all else but with a soft nose and he is 100% correct.
Why do you insist on picking fights? I will not be baited!
We were friends until I said bad things about Freedom guns and I am accused of pity????

Jim, your opinion of the shortcomings of FA revolvers is laughable and irrational. My feelings aren't hurt in the least, so get over it. When you say something that is patently untrue, you are going to be called on it. You seem to deal in absolutes, whereas there are no absolutes in this world.

Firstly, I don't like shooting/hunting with bullets softer than 20 BHN nor harder than 24. The fact is, the Belt Mountain Punch bullet, which will not distort at handgun velocities at all, will leave a bigger wound channel, the faster you run it. That is a provable fact. The same applies to hardcast until the nose is degraded. To claim otherwise is ignorance.

Secondly, if you look in the Big Bore Forum at AR in the Terminal Ballistic thread (this is a comprehensive bullet penetration test), you will find that brass solids with a flat nose leave a larger wound channel at higher speeds just like they do in a revolver. To claim otherwise is again, ignorant.

I too have significant experience in the field on a wide range of big game. I personally am not going to take a chance on a softer bullet. You can believe and use whatever you wish, but when you post falsehoods, I will call you on them. Don't shun books, they're not all bad and frankly I don't understand your aversion to them.

I like what you write. I'm old too but I thought S.O.B. meant short of breath!! Spot on about the primers, many don't experiment enough, they take someone else's word for what works, that can work most times but other times its better to try it for yourself to make sure. Just don't load a bunch at one time, ask me how I know that!!

Dick

amen to that sixshot,know what 'cha mean-L.O.L.

I didn't realize there were 2 pages on here when I posted, I thought I was replying to the last of page 1, seems I've missed out on a few things on page 2!
First off, I really don't want to get into comarisons of peoples experience or the lack of, it just opens a can of worms. Everyone posting here should be patted on the back for using sixguns. For me & for most of you its a passion, I live for it.
I'll start off by saying that I've never recovered a cast bullet, not even one. Thats the beauty of cast, it does what I demand it to do, give me an exit everytime. Its no secret that I prefer cast but I never knock jacketed bullets, I think they are great for deer, probably better than cast. But #1 on the list, at least for me has to be accuracy, not benchrest accuracy, hunting accuracy. I do my best work around 1100-1200 fps & 90% of the time I'm using straight WW alloy, or maybe 1 stick of linotype added. If the accuracy isn't there then I increase the hardness, either by quenching or adding linotype. Hardness goes up as velocity goes up.
Seldom do I care about expansion but if I want it I go to the softnose, but water quenched. This usually comes into play when I'm using one of the smaller calibers like my 357 Maxie or perhaps a 41 maggie. We used a softnose 41 on Steve's moose, one shot kill at 63 yds. It did not exit but had to penetrate at least 4 feet facing straight on. Superb kill.
Once I find something that works I seldom change anything. One exception is my 10 1/2" 44 maggie, I run it fast (1600 fps) with the Keith slug, took a very nice black bear with it. Is it real accurate (nope) but its minute of black bear out to 100+ yds & bears hate it. These slugs are hard, either water dropped WW or 50/50 WW & linotype.
I always chuckle when I read the old timers (Elmer, Skeeter) talk about hard slugs, their bullets were like bubble gum. But it was many years before any sixgun was capable of pushing bullets beyond 1200 fps so what they considered hard & what todays sixgunners consider hard are from the opposite ends of the earth.
I don't think we need to agree on everything, some people say that makes us divided, I don't believe it, my way works for me but many here are outstanding handgunners, I'm guessing you didn't get that way by failing!
I've always tried to be open minded about sixguns, loads, bullets, powder, primers & accuracy, there's just more than one way to get there. Its like 10 of us going to breakfast tomorrow, we're all experienced eaters, would we order the same breasfast, why not! I like spicy sauage, eggs over easy, hashbrowns with country gravy & sourdough toast or an english muffin & a glass of ice cold milk for a belly wash, how could any of you disagree with me!!
I'm hosting a Wounded Warrior this fall on a deer hunt but any of you that would like to do a spring bear hunt or a fall big game hunt are welcome to come to Idaho anytime, just remember about breakfast!
Last thing: This is my priority list on game.

#1 is bullet placement
#2 is complete penetration
#3 is a sharp knife

Dick

No disagreement with any thing that you posted and it mirrors my experience

[quote=sixshot] ...... I'm hosting a Wounded Warrior this fall on a deer hunt but any of you that would like to do a spring bear hunt or a fall big game hunt are welcome to come to Idaho anytime, just remember about breakfast!

Dick
[/quote]

Dick, cudos to you for putting on a hunt like this for the one's that make our way of life possible!

JWP and I don't have many disagreements, he really is a friend.
But deer hunting questions need addressed as deer hunting.
JWP has shot large animals, others bring in moose and bear. That is wrong. The man asked about deer.
That is where my boolit experience is. It takes nothing to put boolits through them and easy to make one work like crazy or fail so fast you will want to give up cast.
For years, this has driven me nuts with answers and pictures posted of huge animals. There is no comparison what so ever.
40" of penetration means nothing when you need to apply energy in 10" to 12" at the right time and place and still make two holes.
YES, YES, YES, JWP, we have seen your pictures for years but you fail to address deer and what works best.
I have the answers for the deer hunter, you have them for a buffalo, can we keep it separate?

No I have not failed to address Deer the principals of terminal ballistics do not change on different game

I have killed plenty of Deer and I prefer a bullet of at least 20 brinnel and not over 24, because I don't want them to become brittle

A Punch bellet will produce a large wound channel in soft tissue the faster it is ran. The faster a bullet is ran the higher the "hydraulic pressure" tha is produced when the bullet impacts soft tissue. The pressure can stretch tissue past its elastic limits and tear the tissue forming a larger wound

I have taken a number of Deer with HARD CAST bullets. I use the same bullet on Large game as I do on small game and have ZERO problems


To claim that a HARD bullet works at X velocity and then calim if one speeds it up up the bullet needs to be softer inorder to expand or it doesn't work well is totaly wrong and incorrect. The added speed will create lrger wounds because of the increased hydrolic pressure

Thanks guys
all good points
Im going to experiment with some loads.
I agree (and have been guily myself) that many load too hot.
Handgun ranges for me is limited. So I really dont need 1500fps.
Im gussing 1050-1250 would do fine.
I will think hard about the fed 150 primers though. Ive always used magnum primers but this makes sense.
Thanks again
My gun returns in two weeks so the testing begins!

I also use the Federal mag pistol primers in most of my loads

John, where I found a bad problem was with the 45-70 BFR with a harder boolit of around 22 BHN. 1632 fps with a WLN and WFN. Deer were lost with no blood trails and those recovered went 200 yards or more with no blood found for 100 yards. Lungs were intact with just a hole through them.
It was so bad I went to the 300 gr Hornady one season and the next I used a 50-50 WW and pure HP. Both worked wonderful.
Now I am sure the hard boolit would have worked in a larger animal or a deer shot at a longer distance.
It gets sticky and hard to understand because the .44 works just fine at a little over 1300 as does the .475 and .500. The .45 Colt does well even though it is slower.
How do you explain it other then the boolit goes through so fast it leaves no energy?
I don't believe in muzzle energy at all for affect on an animal yet energy is really needed inside.
You see, the faster a boolit goes, the higher the muzzle energy goes but where is it applied? Inside or on the other side of a little deer? Is a deer like a paper target?
The punch is a great bullet but you can't convince me it is better on a deer at 1800 fps then it is at 1300 fps.
ONLY IF THE NOSE EXPANDS.

The wound will be larger with the punch on deer with the higher speed.

The number for LBT (Veral Smith) is 208-267-3588 Veral believes from his expereince one can get too large of a wound channel and the animals do not leave a blood trail and go farther

I believe that you are completely understanding what you experienced

I saw these 2 animals with a rifle, but the pictures demonstrate the point that large wound channels do not always leave a blood trail


This deer ran and left no blood trail despite being shot with a 338 Lapau

Entrance




Exit







At the shot this pig went down and then got up and ran off without leaving a blood trail. I had a difficult time fing=ding him and had to put a finisher in him



The damage was massive. Whitworth witnessed the pig

430man, each animal is a biological example of one and they all do not give up the ghost at the same rate. If you have had trouble putting game down with a 45-70 then that is your experience and that is it. I have consistently put game down faster with a 338 win than a 375 H&H and that is my expereince, others had a different than I and my experience proves nothing other than it was my experience.

The 45 Colt has always killed considerably better for me than the 44 mag and the faster 454 has also killed extremely well for me

The deer I had trouble with were double lung shots. Just a small hole from the fast boolit.
I see your point about poor blood trails with guts plugging the hole. That is a given.
Gut shot deer with an arrow are also very bad, not much blood outside.
You can do a lot of damage to a lung but if the boolit angles into the guts and they plug the hole, all blood will stay inside.
I find many gut shot deer each year a long way from where they were shot. No way to track them.
None of my shots ever hit guts, pure lungs only.
I wish we had a camera at each deer that was found. A stick poke through the deer.

Could Randy Garrett's experience help explain the trouble with the double lung shot deer?

Shot Placement and Bullet Selection by Randy Garrett

In my experience and YMMV I have found that it makers not is a rifle is used or a handgun if I do not want them to run the only way to guarenty that they do not is to place the bullet in such a matter as to take out stuctural support bones or CNS hits. I shot a deer with my 30-06 and took out the heart and both lungs and he took off at the shot, no blood on the ground or anything else to indicate a hit. Whne I found they deer about 30 yards away in the woods he fell with one leg pointing 180 degrees away from the other 3. The exit and internal damage was massive to say the least. In no way was there a bullet failure, sometime they just do amazing things whgenthey should not

This Fallow Deer was hit through both lungs with a 425 grain bullet at 1380 about 1380 FPS from the 500 JRH. The Deer simply stood there and then took about 3 or 4 bounds stoped started to wobble and feel over dead.

Upon dressing out the bullet took out a 3 to 4 inch diameter section of lung tissue and all bleeding was internal with none on the ground. Amazing IMHO to say the least, but in no way a failure of the hard cast bullet





As can be seen on the picture no blood and this is where he fell

When hunting with a handgun or a rifle, jacketed bullets or cast, there's just no set rule on how the bullet will work or how the animal will react. Thats one of the reasons we can't draw conclusions from one or two examples.
Probably the most pathetic thing I've ever seen while hunting was a pronghorn antelope that a guy had shot with a 7mm magnum, it was literally shot to pieces & had run perhaps a mile before laying down & he gave it a finisher.
Sometimes a bullet will deflect on bone & run right down the a leg or maybe along the neck, doesn't usually happen with cast slugs but it has happened. If you stay in this hunting game for very many years you're going to see some things that you just can't explain.
Until I see it with my own eyes I'll stick with heavy for caliber cast slugs at 1100-1200 fps, cast from an alloy that gives me good accuracy, again, I don't worry about expansion, I want bullet placement & comeplete penetration.

Dick

+1... Spot on

This thread has been really interesting to me since this will be my first season with a revolver,about 5 yrs ago I was hunting with a 336c Marlin in 30-30,I shot a doe at about 40 yds with a 170 gr Hornady FP over a full snort load of BLC2.At the shot she took of as if she hadnt been touched at all but I couldnt believe I missed her,found her 40 yds away .308 hole in and .308 going out with one broken rib on the off side and not much internal damage to speak of.Been in a delema wether to use 240 jacketed or 300 gr wfngc both shoot very well in my gun.

Which 240 jacketd?

xtp hp

If you use that one put it in the rib cage

I wouldn't have any hesitations about shooting deer through the shoulder with the 240 grain XTP. They are not your average hollow point IMHO. Here are a couple of examples:

I shot this hog "quartering to me" in his right shoulder with a 240 grain XTP at only 1250 fps from my 209X50 Contender.

The shot took his front end out from under him and he pushed himself out of sight leaving a blood trail a blind man could follow. Upon examination, the bullet had completely broken the front shoulder and penetrated into his left ham. This hog had a very thick gristle shield and it is much harder to penetrate than a deers shoulder IMHO.

Here is another example using this MGM .44 Mag Contender which fires the 240 grain XTP at 1700 fps.

I shot this 150-175 lb bear with this gun using the 240 grain XTP.

The shot was at 25 yards and I hit him in his left shoulder, broadside. Reaction to the shot was incredible, he only lasted a few seconds and went down in sight. The shot penetrated both shoulders completely destroying the lungs in between. I found the bullet under the hide on his right shoulder and it was a magazine ad mushroom.

Thats good to know all jackted bullet do not stay together and penetration is comprimised. I know that the 300 grain XTP penetrates well today but di not in the 80's





Here are some jcketed hollow points and jackted flat points that did not penetrate well and some hollow points that did not expand

True, we agree.
I recovered all 240 gr XTP's and had almost no blood on the ground but I seen them go down. The small "in" hole does not bleed good.

JWP thats sure interesting were those from older bullets from the 80s you spoke of or more recent jacketed bullets?

JWP has things in hand. He really does agree and uses boolits in the same parameters that I do.
You can see failures and he shows them. There is a thin line between animal recovery and loss. Just how many kill recoveries are luck?
I will vouch for his experience, you should listen and stop listening to our little disagreements. I hate them and they are useless because we both do the same things in the end.
We carry things far out together but it is just between us. He is a good man and a friend. I will never give that up. We are really just pulling each others tail!

This is an interesting read. http://www.hawkbullets.com/Handgun.htm

Those are recent jacketedbullets. I know that the 300 grain XTP is a good penetrating bullet, but not sure about the 240

the 300 is significantly better than the 240 in the .44 mag realm, but if ya jump to the 454 the 240 xtp mags have held together and expanded well for me as well, nothing as good as the barnes imho on penetration or integrity, no expandable matches them that i have used.

I can agree with that, the mag XTP is a good bullet but they don't make a mag for the .44. I really like the 240 XTP for it's accuracy and expected more penetration on a behind the shoulder shot but I found all 3 bullets. They killed very, very well and fast. I was where I could see them go down but what worried me was when I back tracked them to where they were hit. I found almost no blood at all. Many places I hunt, the deer are out of sight in seconds and it is worse when they are shot at the last minutes of daylight and it gets dark when you look for them.
The 240 was designed to start to open at low velocities, even in the .44 special. Speed it up and it balloons quick into a perfect mushroom but that stops penetration. I would not want to hit big bones with it. Now I don't know what it does at 1700 FPS as far as being shot from a short rifle (TC pistol) but the added velocity should add to penetration. So we again get into comparing apples to oranges by bringing in different guns and different size animals.
Anyway I went to the 320 gr LBT for the .44 and never looked back. Blood starts at impact and you can run on the trail, the deer will be empty in 30 yards or less. Hit the shoulders and they drop. I hate to buy them so I made a mold and it came out 330 gr. It works the same. So does the 310 gr Lee and 300 gr LBT's and the RD 265 gr should be good.
Yes, hard works fine with lung shots from a .44 revolver but if you take the velocity real high with hard, shoot the shoulders.
I have been an archer all my life and it is hard to change where I shoot, you don't shoot arrows into shoulders. After over 250 deer with a bow, aim and shot is ingrown to behind the shoulder.
You see, it works two ways with high velocity and hard , over and above my hard boolit limit. Lung shots can fail so shoot the shoulders. Make the boolit expand and it is good in lungs. But maybe you don't want a shoulder hit with them!
This can happen from a revolver at high velocity and the perfect lung boolit if it hits a shoulder. I took the shoulder off and it was destroyed, you can see what it did to the rest of the carcass.

Now a shoulder shot with a hard boolit from the .475 at the velocity that works no matter where you shoot a deer.

I have shot many deer with 44mag's over the years and have never had any problems using xtp's.I even shot one doe with a 180xtp at over a 100 yards and had a complete pass through the ribs. Never recovered any 240xtp's on shoulder shots either. They work for me. These are all from revolver's.

If there is any doubt about the XTP there are two Aisian/Australian water buffalo on the bragging board taken with them. That is as big and tough of animal as there is short of rhino and elephant and then I'd take the punch bullet over anything else on the market. There are two versions of the XTP which still alot of people aren't aware of, one is the XTP Mag which has the jacket rolled over into the cup and the other is a standard HP design but either is effective on light game.

How do you explain these three 240 gr XTP bullets after no bone hits on deer that were found against the skin?

My deer must be huge with the largest at maybe 150# with the others hard to break 100#.
Funny how a 180 gr goes through huge animals.

as you've read by now your the exception and not the rule and that is the standard XTP and not the Mag design. But bottom line is use what you like let the guys know about what you've experienced or seen but as with anything there are two sides to the story.

That is true, it is not a mag XTP because Hornady does not make one for the .44. To get mag results you need to go to the 300 gr XTP. That will give two holes.
I have no beef with how well the 240 works, it is only that they can stop too fast. They might not go deep enough if big bone is hit. After using them I had to make a decision based on results I seen. I was not happy because I back track every deer looking at blood spoor. There is nothing more important then being able to track a deer. Here it is bad because there are a million tracks on trails. There MUST be blood on the ground.
Nothing is worse then being on your knees with a lantern after dark, looking for a speck of blood.
You can kill deer with anything but you have to find them.
I do not trust the 240 XTP to give two holes.

I shot this small hog about 3 months ago with a .480 Ruger, 412 grain cast bullet, 1200 fps.


The bullet entered on the hog's right side about where my cylinder is lying on his shoulder. The exit can be seen in the photo in front of its left ham. I could not find a single drop of blood and had to trail it blindly. It only ran about 50 yards into a mountain laurel thicket and I recovered the hog without incident.

Even though there was no blood trail, I don't consider this a failure of the load.

If you stop an animals heart with the shot there will be very little blood loss. When you stop the pump pressure drops immediately.A deer dies from lack of oxygen to the brain the same as we do.If a deer has just taken in a breath they can cover 100 yards easily before the brain shuts down, with no blood trail[ no pump]. If the shot is up on the body there will be no leakage either,all the blood will pool in the body. I prefere two holes so I get that leakage. The only sure way to drop one in its tracks is to disrupt the spinal system. The bullets you show did exactly what they were designed to do,drive deep,found under skin on off side, [adaquet penetration]expanded to almost double in size and disrupt vital organs. With deer hide being so elastic it probaly stretched 6 inches on the off side ,bullet had to much frontal area to punch through.

One bullet I do I'd like for the 44 and I might consider over the XTP if were still shooting one would be the 265gr interlock. I've had quite a bit of experience with their interlock bullets in big bore rifle calibers and have been very impressed.

I was lucky that I was able to watch the 3 I shot with the XTP. The problem is other areas will have the deer gone in one or two bounds.
Take into account, we hunt together and after one of us shoots a deer, we stay put and it could get dark. I don't like the worry if I will find blood.
I went to cast with a good meplat and there has been no lack of a trail anymore.

430man,

I have enjoyed our lighthearted debate. I certainly respect your experience and opinions. Best of luck to you this upcoming season!

And not enough weight, perhaps?

Penetration is not all about weight, frontal area affects penetraion as well

I am well aware of this, but some more weight wouldn't hurt.

More weight is always a help with penetration, but a bullet that drives all the way thru a deer ,doubles in size and stops under the hide on the off side has done what it was made to do.I weighed one from my wifes deer that went from chest to back of ham that lost less than 15 grains of weight, 90 grains of 3fff at 10 yds. I want two holes in every thing I shoot if possible as where I hunt they can be out of sight in a couple of jumps. So far I can't find a cast that will shoot with the xtp ,but I am still working on it when finances allow.