Is it ethical to hunt with a .45 colt?

Hey guys,
I don't mind being limited to under 50 yards, but I do mind unethical hits. So, that said, can I hunt white tail deer with a 5" barreled .45 colt? Not a Ruger nor T/C so it would be the 500 ft/lbs range rounds, not the 1200's. Just a wondering.

Thanks guys,
Dogsbreath

Yes.

No.

Let me qualify that NO. In Colorado and Wyoming, NO.

Dogsbreath, you are asking a very good question. In the two states mentioned above a legal handgun must produce a MINIMUM of 550 foot pounds of energy at 50 YARDS, as determined by the manufacturer (of the ammo.)

Again, at 50 YARDS , not at the muzzle.

Back in the 60's-70's when handgun hunting was first legalized in Colorado, you had to qualify to hunt with a handgun by passing a written and shooting test, and the ammo you tested with had to meet the minimum specs. I was a certified tester for the Colorado Division of Wildlife.

That "qualify" requirement is no longer mandated, but the minimum requirement for the ammo is.

Is it chambered for the Schofield or the LC? Neat gun. Put it where it hurts and start skinning! Your margin of error is slim though.

Intriguing question...Is this the only handgun you own? I am very curious to see what the other opinions are. Seems like it would be a delight to hunt small game with.

I guess my only concern is that the chances of a marginal shot are always present even if we limit ourselves to good shots. I personally, have always tried to to hunt with calibers accepted as being adequate for the intended game (which of course is debatable and leads to our current discussion). In my mind anything we can do to ensure a quick kill and recovered game is worth it.

If you are comfortable enough with your groups out of it at your maximum range you intend on taking a shot on a whitetail then go for it. If you are shooting factory ammo my only worries would be penetration. Very soft lead striking hard bone doesnt always make for clean kills. Thus you need to be VERY comfortable with how the Schofield performs at your maximum range. Nice wheel gun.

Thanks guys,
Gregg, in Georgia, where I live and hunt, "any center fire" is how it reads. So the question of leagle is yes, my question was ethical. Can a clean shot put down a white tail humanely. I have no problem passing on marginal shots. I'm one of those who belives that if you dont' play by the rules, it ain't hunting, it is poaching. And that goes for more than just hunting.
S4, yeah, it is a .45 (long) colt, not the schofield round.
SB, No, not the only handgun. I'm only a few years into the addiction, but I'm on my second safe. I've bagged deer with my s/w 29 and t/c in .270. Two seasons ago I quit using my long guns to hunt. So this is more of a "can I play with this new toy" kind of question.
Tracker, I'd be using a quality JHP. I've got to order some dies for the .45/.454, so I'll be hunting with home brewed rounds. I picked up some Horandy's when I got the gun, according to the box, and an online calculator, 185 gr. ftx's are 543 ft/lbs at muzzle, and 440 at 50 yards. I've a call into Uberti to see if this gun can take those hotter loads like the Rugers and t/c's but I'm not counting on it.
Thank you for the kind words on my new toy. I did range report over on the keltek site if you are interested:
http://www.thektog.org/forum/showthread.php?t=247052

Again, thanks for the info,
Dogsbreath

Hey, lookie there, I just got promoted from 'stranger' to 'newbie'. Mooving on up....

I posted to this once before, in NY originally the law was the equivalent to the muzzle energy produced by a 357 magnum, 158 grain jacketed factory load out of a 4" barrel, the law read, 357 caliber or larger and 4" barrel minimum, which was changed to any centerfire cartridge, no caliber spec, no barrel minimum. the important thing to me is that word "ethics", and the ability to wait for a better shot. I am so impressed with the abilities of the succesful folks here that score at extremely proficient distances, but more so I am thankful for the ones that share the tragedy of a misplaced shot and the responsibility that they feel, because I believe that is what spawns this kind of thread.

IMO,Ethics = judgment. Since the law states "any centerfire", The ethical part is in the shot you choose to take not the round you are taking it with. It's up to the hunter to know the limits of the round he or she has chosen to hunt with and is responsible for taking shots that are within the limits of that round. Not saying it has to drop right there with one shot, nothing wrong with having to track one.

Greg, there are several companies that load 45 Colt ammo that more than meets the states 550 FPE requirements at 50 yards. Just to name a few, Buffalo Bore, Grizzly, Corbon, Double Tap, Reed's, Etc.

I am sure that I missed a few

I have a colt 45lc that I have taken deer with. I used the Winchester PDX1 bonded and the 2 I shot with it dropped within 20 yards. If you are accurate with it and feel confident then I would say absolutely ethical. I limit the colts use to 35 yards or less anything beyond that and I always carry two HG's to cover all bases.
I need to clarify something though, if you are going after anything larger then eastern whitetail, I would not feel comfortable. Although a buddy took a nice 300lb Black bear last year with his ruger 45 using the same PDX1 ammo I used. I personally wouldn't have used that ammo in that gun for the hunt.

The 45 Colt properly loaded will take Bison and Moose without a problem BT/DT

The issue is will that top break revolver tolerate such a "properly loaded" round?

I think that if looking at standard 45colt loading you are on the low side of marginal. If you make a good shot, no problem, however you don't have much room for error. A marginal shot may mean a lost animal or a very long track.

.

The standard 45 Colt is not on the low side of marginal IME, now a 32 H&R

Dog,

PLEASE report back when you hear from the maker. Or anything you want to share on how you like it, how it shoots, sights reasonably regulated, anything. One of those pistols has been burning a true hole in my soul for a long time. I have a baby in 32 passed on to me from my great grandfather, and it really needs a big brother.

I am a huge 1911 fan, and you can find reports in a lot of places about the 45acp being enough gun for a white tail, by responsible hunters. You definately understand the limitations, but actually working within those limitations would not be a problem, methinks.

Craig

Will do Bear,
I did a range report on this gun on another site. You're welcome to it...
http://www.thektog.org/forum/showthread.php?t=247052

Of course I am aware of that, jwp475; I was responding to Dogbreath's original question stating ammo: "in the 500 ft/lbs range..."

And then I merely equated it with the legal requirements where I hunt.

10-4

Yeah it would sure answer the question easily if you could load it to higher tolerances.

A 250 @ 1,000 isn't really stepping on it, but will put a hurtin' on any deer at short range. Most any modern firearm should be capable of achieving that.

As stated above, if it is legal in your state and if you have the skill and if it meets your ethical requirements, have at it.

Elmer Keith once killed an elk cow with a 32-20 revolver. I have a couple of 327 mag revolvers (more than a 32-20) that will stack them at 50-75-100 yds. However, I will not hunt a deer sized animal with one of them. But that is my choice. I choose not to hunt with 357s. My smallest hunting rounds are 41s. But that is me. I know the sick feeling that I get when I know that I have hit him & I cannot find him. Therefore, my solution for this "sick feeling" is use too much gun. I never want to lose one because I left a bigger gun in the safe. Just my opinion.

Well stated sir; I could not agree more.

I will wade in with an opinion...

That revolver is not overly strong. The top break action guns need to stay well within the standard pressure limits of the 45 Colt cartridge, which are 14,000 psi if memory serves me correctly.

With that said, yes you can absolutely get standard pressure 45 Colt loads that will easily harvest a white tail deer and yes you can ethically perform that task. If it were me, I would stay away from any jacketed hollow point ammo. The bullets that will reliably expand at normal 45 Colt velocity will possibly break up and not penetrate if bone is hit. If they don't expand, they often act like a round nose bullet and won't damage much tissue. I would think you would be much better served to load ammo with a good lead SWC bullet with a wide meplat and sharp shoulder. An LBT WFN would also be good. I would stay in the 250 gr. range.

If you put a 45 caliber bullet with a good flat nose through a deer at 45 Colt velocity, and it is in the vitals, you will be looking for venison recipes.

Dan

For what it is worth at CustomSixGuns.com John Linebaugh says he and his wife have shot deer and antelope with 45lc in the 900 fps range...pretty much a factory load with a good Kieth style bullet.

I have shied away from 45lc that could handle the hot loads... but that Schofield makes me reconsider... hmmm

One of my guns is an old model Ruger that was a 357 that I converted to a 3.5" 44spcl running a 255gr WFNPB at 1050 and I wouldn't hesitate to shoot a deer out to 50yds or so which would be about my max with irons anymore. I'm normally one that prefers jacketed bullets in most situations but with my 44 and in a std 45 load I would agree on staying with a good hardcast. I'd look at bullets in the 250 to 265gr level so you can maintain a decent velocity and make sure it's a quality bullet with a wide meplat and stay away from the standard round nose or round nose flat points.

You can also shoot heavy weights aswell. Will be slow and have low muzzle energy, put penetration would be exceptional. 300 gr flat nose at 700 fps will have no issues.

Yup, agree completely. The .45 Colt's SAAMI max pressure is 14,000 psi. With that limitation in place with that revolver, I would be more concerned with penetration, which would exclude expansing bullets for me. A good wide meplat hardcast would get the nod here at subdued velocities. Put the bullet where it belongs and go collect your venison.

Howdy and welcome to the forum Humphrey!!

Dog,

Thanks for the review link. That 32 S&W you saw at the shop probably was and Iver Johnson. That is the old gun I have. My grandmother told me my great grandfather used it to shot the pig whenever they were butchering one. They were pretty dirt poor, and it might have been nicer for him to have the S&W version, but the gun still shoots, so he did well by it.

I was glad to see that the gun shoots low. This means you have room to fiddle with the front sight once you settle on a load, if you feel like doing it. My concern on fixed sight revolvers is shooting a lot left or right. My only fixed sight modern revolver was a Riger original Vaquero, and it shot about 6 inches left for me, with everything. Kinda soured me.

As to the power level of your loads, no way Uberti is going to say anything but factory 45's. You might find info on the web or in a magazine like Handloader that might show something a bit more, but I highly doubt it. That latch should be enough to convince anyone that standard pressures need apply. But I agree with the others, a proper cast bullet with wide meplat would be the way to go.

Thanks again for the link,

Craig

A 45 will not only get the job done it will do it with ease if the proper bullet is used (SWC or LBT) even at modest velocities. The old standard black powder loads were a 250-255 gr slug at about 900 fps, almost pure lead & they killed quite well, even with a meplat that was quite small. Not only were quite a few cowboys & indians killed with that load but also a lot of horses!
As always, bullet placement & penetration will get you there if the correct slug is used.
Idaho also says any centerfire, that really should be changed. In my opinion, some calibers just don't have enough poop to be considered big game catridges, even though they are "legal"

Dick

Thanks TCTex.


Also to consider is 230gr flatnoses at 1000 fps.


In comparable bullet weights the 45 Colt is very close in performance with the 357/10mm offerings.

I was just looking at the Idaho regulations awhile ago and was surprised that they don't specify a caliber restriction. Hopefully folks will use common sense and not be shooting game with underpowered, small caliber ammo.

Oregon specifies but it dosn't mean much it's 22 centerfire for deer, black bear etc and 24 centerfire for elk, bighorns and mountain goats.

I wish that states would enact game laws requiring rifle hunters to shoot their chosen rifles more than once before the season opens......

Now that that is off my chest.....LOL!

I wish that states would enact game laws requiring rifle hunters to shoot their chosen rifles more than once before the season opens......

I couldn't agree more, Whitworth! I was once standing in line behind some folks who were buying ammo for their rifle and they were debating which caliber it was! They obviously had not done any practice with it. LOL

It's frightening, isn't it?

I aggree that folks need to shoot there guns and become proficient with them..

But there is NO WAY that we need more laws or government!!!!

They can't even run a budget, I sure as heck don't need them telling me what I can and can't do any more than they already do.

Most State Dept. methods for determining cartride legality is almost always screwed up anyways.

Muzzle energy is a good example..it is a total JOKE, and has nothing to do with killing power.. Case in point.. I once shot a whitetail doe with a 50BMG..For those that don't know, "this is HUGE", this thing generates almost 13,000 Ftlbs of energy.. She looked up at the shot and then went back to grazing. (I thought I shot high) A full minute passed and she picked up her head and started walking backwards and fell over dead...shot right behind the shoulder.

2nd example... I shot a cow elk with a 22 pistol..This thing is only generating around 70ft.lbs of energy at the muzzle. Took the shot at around 30yards, I watched the bullet strick right behind the shoulder, she humped at the shot and started to trot, I sent shot number 2 aiming about 4" behind the hole made from the first bullet. She troted 30yards, started walking backwards and fell over DEAD.

As you can see muzzle energy has little to do with killing power...or the -70lbs wouldn't have killed the elk so cleanly and the 13,000lbs would have made the deer into a smoldering hole in the ground.

To take one variable and make it the standard is bad thinking..diameter,length, weight, velocity, and shot placement, in the correct combinations, make a projectile lethal. You can't just pick one and make laws around it.

Bottom line..get out there and hunt!. Practice with your weapon of your choosing until you feel comfortable....Knowing that in the end you will not answer to man, or his governments...But to the Almighty Himself

"Energy" is a very poor indicator of terminal performance and that is for sure and certain

To quote John Linbaugh.

"The "industry" give us foot-pounds of energy figures to ponder over on cold evenings. We could shoot phonograph needles at the speed of light for, say, "20 tons" of energy and never stop anything bigger than a bull pack rat. Or we can shoot heavy .44 and .45 caliber slugs and do things very few would believe."

FA 475, You are right about the gun laws, the powers to be would use them as a foot in the door. Kennedy already tried to push a bill that would outlaw all 30-30 rounds or larger because it could penetrate a police officers vest…

you would think they would want to get criminals off the street instead of guns. liberals...SMH.

Wow, 40 replies. I'm flattered. Thanks for the feed back guys. I like the two handgun approch to hunting. One for close work, one for distance, and I think this pup will do nicely.
Again,
Thanks,
Dogsbreath

Not sure if this is the righ place for this, but a number of years ago a named writer wrote a piece in one of the gunrags I subscribed to at the time. I forget who, so I apologize. But it has kinda stuck with me in the back of my mind all these years.

The argument was that it was possible to hit a critter in the normal lung shot area, and if the critter was on exhale cycle the lungs would be less deflated, and a bullet might cause much less damage then when the lungs are inflated. Maybe Doc might have some thoughts on this from the physiology side. I have always just put this into the back of my mind, as it certianly would add a variable for which we have no control.

Craig

I vaguely remember that article, but cannot recall who penned it. It does make sense in my mind's eye, that damage would be greater if the lungs are full of air. JMHO.

So I guess I need to be watching for that puff of exhaled vapor before I squeeze ;-)

Lungs don't hold much air let alone at any real pressureI(2 lbs). They won't pop if they are full. The only reason something dies when shot in the lungs is that the air gets between the lung and the cavity around it when the diaphram creates a vacuum in the chest cavity to inhale. It collapses the lung and preferably both. They animal suffocaites to death. If anything you'd want to shoot the lungs on an empty lung. Atleast its one breath closer to a collapsed lung.

Exactly -- LOL!

LOL, I would worry more about shot placement…

You could right a dissertation over this subject and it still isn’t going to change the fact that every animal is a rule unto itself. I would more worried about what I am shooting and how competent I am with it…

Everybody knows you have to have at LEAST a 500 S&W to hunt deer with… muwahahahaha…

(For those finding this post with search engines, the last line is suppose to be an “epitome of ironies” statement paralleling the subject of the tread…)

what you talking about, you need at least a 458

You know, I wish I could recollect the publication where I saw the article. I did make a mental note that the guy had a well established track record ;^) Like I said, one of those things that make me go huhmmmmmm.

I almost resorted to it on the last two cow elk a buddy took. Both perfect lung shots, with a 375 H & H, with premium bullets. Both elk ended up a couple of hudred yards away, dead. He was more of the mind that perhaps back flips were in order.

Humphrey, thanks for your input. I hoped someone with a better knowledge of anatomy and physiology might have more insight. Sure seems consistent with my archery experience that it is not needed to create "jelly". Your perspective does seem to indicate that 2 holes might be better than one for something besides just tracking....

And Dog, I am pretty interested in your original premise here, as I am leaning towards a 45 caliber bullet next season that will not be much more than your shooter. I go way back with the Sixguns and the writings of the traditional folks, as well as the more modern who sort of pioneered handgun hunting with guns that did not have 475, or 500 or Linebaugh on the gun. I spent a couple of hours researching the top break guns this morning, you put a major burr under my sleeping bag.

Craig

Was it possibly the HHI publication: THE SIXGUNNER?

Gregg,

Definately not the Sixgunner. It may have been in one of the magazines I saw at the barber shop here. It has been a lot of years since I read it.

Craig

No, it was in a big monthly publication if I can recall correctly.

I would not worry about the .45.
I have taken many deer with a cap and ball revolver and round balls. The last was on my side of my fence, she made it over in a leap and fell dead when she landed.

dogsbreath I would use it with the 50 yard limit and never think twice. I'd take it to a gunsmith and let him look it over well but I know a 260gr projectile in the 800-950fps range will work if you put it where it belongs. This load is a little over factory ammo but no where near Ruger levels.Good Luck to ya

Are you handloading or buying factory rounds?
Steve

hand loading 250 grainers with 6.3 gr. of tight group. Worked up a bunch of berry's bullets to spec and I'll match some Hornady's to the same speed. at 50 yards or under that should be fine. I'm a real careful hunter. I don't mind passing on questionable shots. I'll have this and a .454 t/c for the longer stuff if needed, but in N. Ga. short range is what it is all about.

I myself use A ruger new model blackhawk scoped with a pistol scope on whitetails here in Ohio.The load i use is for tc contenders or ruger blackhawks only.I have used 21.0 grains of win 296 with the hornady xtp 300 grainer hollowpoint and have had devasteting results out to 100 yrds with this load, DO NOT USE IN ANYTHING BUT A RUGER BLACKHAWK OR STRONGER FRAME. THIS IS A NEAR 44 MAG LAOD WITH A 45 CAL BULLET. I CRONOED IT AT OVER 1250 FPS AT 10 YRDS.do not try and hunt deer with cowboy loads and single action armies.

!!YOU GOT TO KILL IT TO GRILL IT!!TedNugent

I've used several bullet weights and types in .45 Colt or .45 ACP for hunting, including 165 grain Gold Saber Remington, 200 grain Speer Lawman, Federal 230 grain Hydra-Shoks, up to 300 grain Hornady XTPs handloaded to 1100 fps. Cast bullets work well too. A good flat point 255 grain cast bullet at 800 fps from the S&W top brake should stay well below the 14,000 psi limit. Your skill and judgement are the limiting factors. The ethical part is you limiting yourself to your own ability. If you can shoot inside 8 inches at any given distance, given the same field position you practiced in, including all flyers, you can hunt large game at the same distance. I'd stay below 700 pounds in animal weight unless you move up to a modern S&W Model 25 and can up your loads a bit.