Cow elk with a .357 magnum

My 15 year old son was recently drawn for a cow elk tag for December 2012 in Kentucky. He really wants to hunt with a handgun but his size and hand strength would limit him to a 10-inch contender in .357. He has killed deer with this pistol from both a tree stand and a ground blind and he shoots it quite well.

The Buffalo Bore 180 grain cast load in this pistol shoots right at 1,800 fps and so this particular load in this pistol more than satisfies the Kentucky requirements of a minimum 550 ft/lbs at 100 yards (which I guess is a debatable standard but its what is allowed).

At any rate, I sure don't want to set him up to fail and he could certainly leave the pistol at home and use a rifle. That said, I would appreciate your opinions on this setup for cow elk at 75 yards or less.

Thanks

In the closed breech of the Contender the 357 shines. Since most barrels have plenty of room in the chamber you can stick a 180 out a bit and push that bad boy like a 360DW, and even get close to 357 Max numbers. That Buff Bore load is right there too. Within respectful range it will kill an elk if the shooter can put it in the right place.

Has he killed any other animals with it? How much is he shooting on a regular basis?

He has killed 3 deer with it and we shoot every couple of weeks especially during the summer. We practice quite a bit with some 158 grain handloads off shooting sticks but he has fired probably six boxes of the buffalo bore (its expensive).

I have of course been with him when he was hunting with it and he stayed a lot more composed than I did. I have to say, hunting with my son while he was using his handgun is the best times we have ever had in the woods.

Here is a pick of the last deer he killed with it. Good shot placement from 52 yards.

[img]http://tinypic.com/r/whd1d4/6[/img]

TCScout,

I am just going to read this post and not give MHO as Gary has this totally under control.

What I will humbly mention in the meantime though is:

Obvious Factors:

1. Range
2. Shooter ability
3. Shooter experience (not the same) (Exciteable as in ELK FEVER?) I still get that sometimes!
4. Shot placement
5. Bullet construction and design
6. Angle of bullet impact to animal

We all know a .22 will kill an elk; that aside, I bow out.

Thank you for listening.

Gregg

PS: I was unable to get the photo of your son with his deer to come up.

PPS: TC Scout, No matter how the other opinions play out, I applaud you for your times hunting with your son. I agree: it is the best!!!

Not sure what I did wrong on the picture.

I appreciate the factors you mentioned. And I realize that shooter experience and shooter ability and elk fever are not as objective as range, bullet type, etc.

I won't even consider letting him hunt an elk with this pistol unless I feel comfortable that he and I have done all we can to maximize his ability before we go hunting (which would include a lot of range time and a few more deer hunts in the interim) That said, he might not be ready.

I guess my main question has to do with any thoughts you may have regarding a 180 grain hard cast .357 caliber bullet for elk. Assuming good shot placement from a shot taken at fairly close range, do you all think a non-expanding bullet would work well on elk?

Sorry guys/gals, but I was asked outright; so in due respect, I will give my opinion:

The bullet is capable. It appears your son shoots the t/c well. It also appears he has a maturity in the field that many adults do not have. Just reinforce the ethics and enjoy the elk hunt with him.

My .02

Excellent; a pic is worth a thousand words.

I wish I had gotten started hunting with handguns when I was 15! Congrats to him for drawing a KY elk tag. They're not that easy to draw, are they? Very cool.

i'm sure it'd work, however, i'm not sure why not a 44 mag. my 15 year old daughter shoots her smith alot and i've got her shooting some really mellow hardcast loads that your son wouldn't have to worry about angle at all and would certainly do the job and i'm sure he'd handle the loads just fine as i'm sure he's bigger and stronger than she is. in fact i'm willing to bet the loads she's shooting don't kick worse than that 357 load.

That's a great photo and it looks like the young man is on the right path! I too would lean more towards the .429 Magnum.

I have to agree with the .44magnum crowd.

While a 180gr BB from a .357 contender is no slouch I think that it is riiiiiiiight at that marginal level and does not really give you a whole lot of lattitude for a less than perfect shot.

A medium loaded .44mag out of a contender would be a much better choice.

Just for the sake of comparison, looking at the Taylor KO number for these two rounds:

180gr .357 @ 1800fps = TKO 16
280gr .44 @ 1250fps = TKO 21

That is a 31% increase if you subscribe to the TKO as an indicator of killing power.

I personally am not a 357 fan. However, in reality it is a 35 caliber bullet, 180 gr, striking at some velocity within 75 yds. If this discussion involved a 35 Remington rifle also shooting a 180 gr bullet, I would expect that most would think that it would be effective out to 150 yds or more on a cow. I expect that the 357 contender would produce similar results at 75 yds.

It is very interesting to me that many of us believe that animals are much more difficult to kill now, than they were years ago. IMHO, they are the same animals. They were killed with bows, muzzle loaders, black powder cartridges, "hot" newly introduced smokeless powder cartridges (30-30), etc. Today, most elk hunters think they need a XYZ super magnum to kill an elk. I do not believe that.

It is still much more important ---- where you hit them, rather than what you hit them with. Take the 357 & make a good shot. He will be OK.

wtroper that was my thinking as well. it is more of a moderate rifle round than a handgun round. I say have at it a practical ranges and make it count

It sounds like he's capable and so is the cartridge if everything is perfect. My biggest concern would be having an adequate blood trail to follow if it went very far.

Guys,
Thanks for the feedback, it is much appreciated. I have considered stepping him up to a .44 and may do that. It would have to be something on the higher end to meet the energy requirement but it would not necessarily need to be a really hot load. Its just that he shoots the .357 pretty darn good and he is comfortable with the recoil.

As far as him getting drawn, I have a hunting buddy that calls him "Horseshoe" referring to what is apparently a small solid gold object on his person in a particular place that seems to manifest itself much of the time and is such a way that he seems to be lucky. Best thing is he just likes to hunt.

I am a little concerned about a scant blood trail myself.

Again, many thanks.

do it right, stay within your predicted range and place your shjot and you won't have a problem, compromise those two rules and it will look like a bad idea.

In a nutshell how much more velocity & energy could be mustered out of a 10" .357 MAX? It would seem a simple conversion to have your barrel rechambered if it would provide better ballistics and peace of mind.

Then again I have a book in my possession by the late Bob Milek entitled Handgun Hunting Across America. On the chapter on Elk the late Bob Milek and the late Steve Herrett are up on the Salmon River in Idaho hunting Elk with 10" T/C Contenders Chambered for the .357 Herrett. If memory serves me correctly (I'd have to go re-read the article to be sure) they were shooting a .357 Speer 140gr. Jacketed Hollow Point at something like 2000 FPS. In regards to Milek's Bull Elk he had to shoot it numerous times and finally realized that he was not penetrating the shoulder. The folowing shot (at much greater range than he said he should have been shooting at) he put behind the shoulder and the Bull collapsed.

Again I'd have to go read the article again to be sure of the velocity, Energy and range but the point is he was shooting a Jacketed Hollow Point meant for a .357 Magnum, and not a hard cast bullet that at least in theory should provide for much greater penetration.

The bottom line is if it is legal, if your on can restrict himself to a certain range (pre determined) and put the bullet in the right place I am sure you'll be eating Elk.

But then what do I know, I have never hunted Elk, and never shot a .357 Magnum Contender.

Good luck on the hunt to your son regardless of what he chooses to hunt with.

Larry

not sure what jacketed .357 bullet would be designed to hold together at 2000fps but it sounds like a rather poor idea to begin with. i know of only a few 454 bullets designed to hold together at that velocity and i would imagine it would be a nice varmint round. if ya use a hardcast i'd make sure you do some testing to make sure it stays together at that velocity.

Yup. Can't drive the cast bullet that hard, a common mistake. The bullet I would be comfortable to use at those velocities would be the Punch.

Easier to go with a bigger bore. JMHO.

Given the choice, I will take volume over velocity as well, relatively speaking.

I don't know how applicable it would be in a hunting consideration but I can say that we shot the Buffalo Bore 180 hard cast during part of a science experiment my son did for 7th grade.

He shot the Buffalo Bore and a Swift 180 grain A-frame into wet phone books tightly bound together with bailing wire. The 180 grain cast bullet penetrated 19 inches worth of phone books and held together perfectly - cut a straight hole too. He got about 7 inches with the A-frame.

I am not worried about that particular cast bullet falling apart, but I do understand the volume over velocity argument.

I was simply stating that when you push them too fast, you can compromise their performance by exceeding their ability to keep their shape.

I would start the young man on the 44mag with 180gr at first then as summer goes on I would up the bullet weight. If he don't like the heaveier bullets then he could stay with the 180gr. That way he want loose any thing and then when he is ready he will be use to the 44.

I'll be the oddball here and say aside from a 44 Contender barrel you can go with the 45 Colt. You can start him with cowboy action loads and take it up until he reaches his tolerance. The 45 will excede what the 44 is capable of on the top end.

I gotta throw my .02 in!
Your original question was would .358 hardcast @ 1800 fps properly plased by a competent young shooter do the job on a cow elk. I believe it would do it quite well!!!

Would it be my 1st choice? You didn't ask that question (But the answer is Nope). BUT, I have no doubt that in your son's capable & experienced hands it will work & might be his best choice.

IMO the 357 might work great in the "right situation". But if you would move up the ladder to say the 44 mag or 45 colt you will get a few more "right situations"

Also if this is a once in a lifetime or an extremely hard to draw hunt. I would go all out on a "more proper" (if there is such a thing) elk cartridge. I would hate to think I would come home empty handed (and never get to hunt that hunt again)..........all because I had to pass a shot, or worse yet, not get the job done with a 357.

I believe the 357 will do the job. How about you do the ol switcheroo with a 44 mag meaning get him started shooting mellow 44 mag reloads and when you go hunting slip in a hot 44 mag he wont even know the difference he will be to excited to care. Thats what my dad did when i killed my first turkey. I practice with low brass 20 gauge but he slipped in a 3 in magnum and I killed the turkey and didnt even know about it until afterwards.

That sounds good, but would most likely change the point of impact. Bullet placement is too important to take that chance. You could let him try the 44 mag and see how he shoots it.....if any problems stay with 357. The 357 will perform.

You beat me to it! The .44 Mag load doesn't necessarily have to be so hot.

I am considering the .44 magnum and the only reason I have not started up some loads for him to shoot is that I do not have one at this point other than a Desert Eagle. So before I purchase a contender barrel I really want to think this through.

Years ago I loaded and shot a lot of cast bullets through a couple of Redhawks, but those were all hotter loads. So I have some experience there and I know I could work up some medium range loads that you guys are talking about.

That said, if I were to go with a 275 or 300 grain hard cast I could push it at 1100 fps and meet the Kentucky requirement of 550 ft/lbs at 100 yards. I know that velocity is not the be-all-end-all factor and that weight and diameter are strong considerations in the equation - but again I have to meet the standard so I have to look at velocity.

I could obviously push faster than 1100 fps but then I am concerned its going to bite him pretty good (I could be wrong about that because I have never shot a contender in .44 mag myself). What do you guys think - at 1100 fps in the .44 am I really gaining over the 180 grain bullet in the .357 at 1800? Secondly, if I push the .44 hard cast faster will it result in some level of recoil he might not be able to handle.

In reality, the only way I can answer that is to try it, but I wanted to know some more about what you guys thought before I invest in another barrel, and possibly another scope.

Thanks again for all of the input, it is much appreciated.

If you sight it in to the hotter load you are good to go and chances are the lighter load will be close enough for practice

Make sure if you don't already have them get a set of Pachmayr decelerator grips for the G2 and it will make a night and day difference in percieved recoil.

Good luck...shot placement

Hornady makes a good 180 gr X.T.P. if a guy wanted a hollowpoint that wouldn't come apart like the lighter weights and should penetrate pretty good.

Well the season finally arrived and my boy was fortunate enough to fill his tag today. Picture and details are at "Kentucky Elk" under recent photos.

Great accomplishment for the young man. Any elk with a handgun is a wonderful trophy!

TCScout

I have been a long time fan of the .357, and you can realize the potential with the contender.

Your son did very well, and you did too, to support him and spend the time with him so he was ready for the hunt. More important than taking the animal was the time you spent together, that makes memories that last a life time.

Great job. I am a fan of the .357 and am glad he had a positive end for a tough to get tag. He is probably the first to kill an elk in Kentucky with a 357.

Where is "Kentucky Elk". I would love to see and congrats! I hunt with a t/c exclusively and have gotten deer with various calibers. I live in Ky but, have never been drawn for an elk tag.

Gun guy, go to the bragging board (location of photos) and his photo is titled "Kentucky elk".

Big time congrats!

Wow! congratulations to both of you!

Great job! Great Times!

Wow ! With a 357? Nice

Congrats to both of you, and you have every right to be a proud papa.

Larry

very cool

I have hunted elk for 40 years and i would never have expected a one shot kill clear through the elk with a 357 pistol. Great shooting. Here in Idaho, with my luck, I would have had to chase that cow over two or three mountain ridges and spend two hard days hauling it back to camp. Enjoy the ivories!

Congrats to both of you....Nice job

After this has carried on this many pages how about a repost of the final results info here or a link.

I'm assuming a mature cow elk in KEntucky might be smaller than in Montana. Several years ago I chose to shoot a buffalo with a 44 mag 240grain Speer FMJ hotloaded and the results were bad! I head shot it at 35 yards and the first shot went through the skull and into the hillside just flenched like a bee sting and didn't hit the ground, 2nd shot missed the 1st hole by a couple inches through the skull into the hillside with the same reaction the 3rd shot was a little lower and further forward all within few inches of each other. This buffalo still standing decided enough was enough and left the area and about 3 hours later I found the buffalo still alive but bleeding out. It took another shot to finish it off. The energy was going through the buffalo with no expansion and this was a poor bullet choice. A year before that I shot another buffal with a 240grain hornady XTP same fps which dropped the buffalo in it's tracks because the bullet lodged inside the head and thus the energy was spent on the buffalo not the hillside. A 357 magnum can kill an elk but it's certainly not a good choice. I killed an elk with a 243 rifle which has much more power than a 357 magnum but nobody would recomend it for elk. Just don't rush the shot, get it in under 50 yards and make sure you put it through the vitals such as the lungs, heart, head not anywhere else. I don't know what to tell you about a hard cast bullet since it's not a good choice in small calibers and big animals. You need expansion but you also need penetration. I like XTP's but you have to choose what you believe in and know how the bullet works.

I guess I was late to the party and didn't need to waste my breath writing all that info. Congratulations! I couldn't find the photo but good job anyway. Great accomplishment!

Howdy and Welcome Aboard Z!

Ya, there are several debated topics you just brought up that have been debated extensively here on he forum.

Just to name a few:
Cast vs. Jacketed-and the sub group there of-
Expansion vs. penetration.
Ethical requirements-multiple stated above including-
243 and harvesting elk. (Yes that has been discussed here...) and
What can ethically harvest appropriate game vs min requirements.
Matching game with the appropriately constructed bullets.
Shot placement.


In this case, the young man did a fine job. He and his father did their home work and knew the limits of the equipment as well as their own.



I have to say Bravo Zulu to them IMHO

Duane

Energy nor bullet choice was the problem with the 3 head shots that failed to put the animal down. The bullets missed the brain, simple as that. This is the very reason that head shot are not recomended

"I have head shot Mule Deer with my 4 5/8 44mag at over 70 yards. It's all about knowing what your max accurate shooting distance is in a hunting situation and don't shoot over that. I have also killed Buffalo with that same pistol. On the other end of the spectrum I have also head shot dear at 165 yards with my 8 3/8."

Apparently 'Z' likes those head shots . He has six posts and at least two mention shooting for the head . Just saying... trying with all my might to just let this go.

I have not been able to find the picures, would someone please post a link

Thanks

I do like the head shot. The reason for the Buffalo was the ranch I hunted on only allowed that shot on Buffalo which if you wanted to hunt on his place again which I did you had no choice. I would of much rather preferred the lungs but this was not my chosing. On deer either you miss them or you drop them in the tracks. I'm no t here to tell others different. I'm also not saying cast is not as good as jacketed or vise versa. Know your bullet and what it's capable of. I've been involved in hunting since I could walk. Killed lots of deer, elk, antelope, buffalo and other to know for me what works what doesn't and expereienced the good, bad and ugly of hunting with pistol, rifle and bow. I'm in my late 40's and I don't have an ego about hunting or firearms and believe you should share your expereinces to help others which is how I like to learn as well.

So you advise taking headshots AND you can consistently shoot 'minute of brain' out to 160 something yards .



Seems legit...

For the record, I'm not a big fan of headshots. Maybe I'm just not good enough -- LOL! I will take a headshot if it presents itself and I think I can make it, but usually I won't.

This statement alone has me pondering your actual experience as a hunter, let alone a handgun hunter. There is a lot of area around the brain to hit but will not kill a deer. I've done it.....once. Followed a blood trail for over two miles in the snow and never did recover the deer. I will never do it again.

This one has several epiphanies wrapped in a conundrum spiraling down towards infinity…

TCScout, I apologize for the blemish on your son’s accomplishment. With my oldest just getting old enough to go out, I cherish the time with him. We need more parents like you that are willing to take the time to share what we love so much with our children.

Duane

I agree. I'm proud of his accomplishment and rite of passage. Well done , young man.

Thanks to you all for the kind words. I just reposted a photograph under "Kentucky Elk (repost)" on the bragging board.

I had removed it a few weeks ago when I reacted to someone on here busting my chops in a manner that I thought was rude and called my character into question.

That said, I have realized that his behavior is far more the exception than it is the rule here. So I should'nt let that incident bother me as much as it did and steal my joy and keep me from participating here.

There are a great bunch of folks on this forum.

I hope you all enjoy the picture a quintillionth as much as I enjoyed being there when my boy dropped the hammer.

Here ya go, pal...

http://www.handgunhunt.com/photopost/showphoto.php?photo=5641&limit=recent

Congrats to you and your son!! That's definately a PROUD POPPA moment.

in the TC the speed will be like shooting the .357 Max,I wouldn't hesitate to use it-john

Exactly!


My 15.75in Max gets 2000fps with a 180gr.



TCScout was getting 1800fps with his 10in Mag. That is very respectful.