FA hammer position while hunting?

I finally purchased my first Freedom Arms 83, a 7.5" PG in 475 Linebaugh. This is my first FA and Im a little confused weather or not I need to carry on an empty cylinder? Or hammer cocked to where I can rotate the cylinder? Too many choices... need to stick with my Rugers! Just kiddin, the gun feels great! The lockwork is incredable! I don't see myself selling this one off anytime soon.

Congrats 240! Be careful, that first Freedom starts a slippery slope...

As far as hammer positioning, I carry mine on an empty chamber - that way, when I cock it back, I'm ready to go...

Freedom recommends carrying on an empty cylinder because there is no transfer bar system as on the Rugers and BFR's. They are similiar to Colt in that if dropped on the hammer they can go off. I have an unaltered 3 screw Ruger and it has the same issue so I carry hammer down on an empty chamber.

Sounds like empty cylinder is the way to go. Thanks guys.
SCHunter- I'm already looking for "a deal", on another.

when you buy you next one, the 97 has the transfer bar.

Yep - that's how it starts

You're going down a very dangerous path......

Quickly abandon ship before it hits the iceberg of no return.

NEVER carry a model 83 with 5 rounds loaded or a live round under the hammer. If you can't sort things out with 4 rounds of 475 then there have already been several screwups and one more isn't likely to solve it either. It is not worth the risk to yourself or those around you

But what if you have FIVE bears attacking you?



I know, then you've got bigger problems.....LOL!

Then once again, its up to my 3rd Grade YMCA Karate lessons to save my ass! Im sure that bear has no idea whats to follow when I strech into my "Crane Stance". Wax on/ Wax off

Hahaha!

Can FA make it with a transfer bar? I have 2 Model 97's and have fewer worries, but I have always wondered why that action can't be duplicated in the 83's.

No, it's a different action.

Just for the sake of being accurate, the m83 action does indeed not have a transfer bar, but it does have a blocking bar that is raised when the hammer is drawn slighty back. This keeps the hammer off the firing pin and spring.

Craig

I spit my coffee and snarfed my coffee out on that one!

That's correct but it is not safe to carry the gun with a live round in the chamber under the hammer.

So what is the point of even having a hammer block safety? It is no different than many semi autos or lever rifles that employ such a system. I believe that the warning from FA is more a lawyer induced idea to guard against idiots that don't have sense enough to pull the hammer back to the first click. That being said a transfer bar safety is more idiot proof.

I believe that FA 's position on not changing the modle 83 to a transfer bar is that it would impare trigger performance.

Or if you have expended you 4 shots and Grizz is still coming you need one for yourself.

Carry an extra Ruger for yourself... LOL

With a full cylinder, haha!

Do we need an irony smile for this?

3:)

Yes they could, but simply choose not to do so. The system fo a transfer bar in the FA-83 was designed years ago and FA declined

I'm not sure I wanna know what that means ;-)

HAHA, I just watched that movie last night... weird

Is a snarf similar to an urrp?

The story that I have heard related to the reason for the warning on the 83s --- a foolish person shot himself in the leg with a 454. How??? Who knows. I expect that he cocked the hammer & pulled the trigger. But it happened. After the dude's lawyer put the finishing touches on the story, FA was guilty. This is a third hand story. I have never asked Bob or Wayne about it.

There have purportedly been a number of accidental discharges from what I understand. That said, you can count on a certain percentage of the populace to have trouble with even simple tasks like breathing.

That feller was wearing a slicker over his rig and when he pulled off the slicker it caught the hammer and pulled it back just enough to make it go bang when it released it.

Snarf:

"when one is eating and is provoked by something funny which causes them to laugh and expel said food out of nasal passages... also applies to liquids."


I don't know if it applies to the generation or geographic differences... LOL

Law suit issue: I heard it rummered that there were those who thought we was "quick drawing" with it. But again, this is a third person rummer and can not be confirmed...

I would bet that he did not have the hammer set to the first click. And the slicker only pulled the hammer enough not to go to the first click. I may be wrong but I believe once a FA has been set to the first click that the only way to remove the hammer block is to depress the trigger. If that is not the case it should be and I would say the model 83 is a poor design since the hammer block serves no function. If I was shopping for a larger than 45 colt revolver I would steer clear of a FA. Give me a custom Ruger or a BFR.

i would enjoy all the benefits of a freedom arms and just learn to follow the instruction in the owners manual and carry over an empty chamber. never ever have i needed that fifth shot, in fact, never needed a sixth which is why i don't care they're not 6 shooters.

that said, once it's to the first click and the block is up, the only way to get the gun to go off is to finish cocking it and pull the trigger. how that happened in these cases is beyond me, i know the stories the idiot in question told the court, but i think it's probably closer in similiarity to the idiot that shoots someone else when bowhunting. serious user error.

So bottom line a FA is no more dangerous than any other gun with a hammer block safety with a round in the chamber as long as it is properly used. Keep in mind that many here carry G2 Contenders with a round in the chamber. It uses a hammer block safety although it is automatic and doesn't require you to cock to first click.

I carry my FA's with the hammer on an empty chamber. That being said. I have practiced placing a loaded round in the empty chamber right after the gun has been cocked and fired. On the model 83 the chamber is lined up perfectly with the loading gate with the hammer down.

Toby

Everyone should carry in the way that they feel comfortable with. My contention though is that the idea that it is unsafe with one in the chamber is overblown because of some requirement that the lawyers have required of FA.

Since FA makes the top of the line production gun I just don't get why they don't just use the transfer bar system. The Ruger and BFR are as safe as a gun can get since the hammer itself never touches the firing pin and the transfer bar doesn't move unless the trigger is pulled and can't move up with the hammer down. I have to say though I don't agree they are the best guns out there. I've handled custom Rugers my own included that have better actions and are just as accurate but for a production gun they have the best tolerances of any out there.

I have to agree with this assessment. For a production gun, there is nothing finer or more refined, not to mention absolutely superior fit and finish. But a finely built custom Ruger -- that is very hard to beat. But out the box, FAs are pretty damn good -- to say the least.

I have owned a couple FA's in .454 and the tolerances were IMHO a bit to tight. If I didn't clean them after a couple or three cylinders they got draggy. My stock other than springs Ruger .45 Bisley Hunter shoots just as well without having to constantly clean it.

I've been shooting FA guns for some years now and I simply don't believe the stories of the people who've been involved in shooting them selves or their buddies if they have followed gun safety rules and the rule (unless you're an idiot) of only loading 4. I think they were either screwing around with the gun or they actually had their finger on the trigger when it went off. Like the guy with the slicker. I'm betting it went like this if it's as he said and his slicker cocked the gun (which I seriously doubt). 1) he didn't have the gun strapped down 2) he stuck his finger on the trigger when when he went to pull his gun out of the holster and boom. These stories of these guns getting mysteriously cocked and firing is someone telling a story so they don't have to admit they've shot someone through negligence.

And to save face for being stupid, they blame the gun.

Yes

When the FA-83 first came out they were considered safe with the hammer block, now they are considered unsafe with 5 loaded. I have carried 5 in mine a number of times especially in Grizzly/Brown bear country with a loaded pack of raw moose meat. If the FA-83 is dropped from about 3 or more feet and the gun falls on the hammer on a hard surface it can break the hammer block and fire. This has happen to at least3 people that I know of.

The FA-83 is in no way as safe as a transfer bar system when fully loaded
4 in the cylinder is by far the safest way to carry a Freedom-83

so technically if your scope hangs over your hammer so it would contact before the hammer you would be safe?... LOL I don't know, I think a lot of this is splitting hairs. 4 in the chamber is fine by me.

one thing about custom Rugers are that they don't say Freedom, WY on them like my 83 does... and I kinda like that

You do know who casts their frames for them, don't you?

actually, no I don't...

last conversation i had with freedom arms about 2 months ago they were thinking about the 97 system on the 83.in my unasked opionon,you got to be a clutz to drop or discharge your gun by accident,5 rounds in the 83 with first click position.if i wind up shooting myself you can have the last laugh,73 and still clicking.

Ruger cast their frames. Ruger is a world leader in investment casting

elwood kirby:

Your post read; albeit spelling/english. However, the fact is (and proves out over decades): IF you handle firearms ENOUGH and ROUTINELY and for a LONG ENOUGH period of TIME, you WILL experience some personal errors. Whether or not they result in an AD, will be determined by luck, circumstances, and you.

Don't be too "COCKY." Or if you are, you better be PERFECT.

AGAIN: Main safety precaution: where you point that muzzle AT ALL TIMES.

it's like the loggers I've grown up with and around. The two most likely types to be hurt or killed are the beginners and the old timers. One is green and doesn't know anything and the other gets over confident because of their experience. All it takes is once and you or someone else may not live to regret it.

cocky would be an invention of you,the original,one and only,LEDGEN IN YOUR OWN MIND!!!worry about your own self.that is a task in and of itself!!!as a true moderator,this subject is closed.

A couple of points:
An 83 needs to be carried with an empty chamber under the hammer. Anything else is plain foolishness and irresponsible. Stuff happens. The same is true of Colt and USFA 1873 pattern guns.

An 83 could indeed accomodate a transfer bar system. I closely examined and SHOT one, an experimental version modified by Bob, at the 2011 Shootists Holiday. No, they won't modify yours, as the cost would be prohibitive. Will there be such a model in the future? Who knows ... I doubt it.

The guy with the slicker "won" the lawsuit, with the responsibility for penalty / payment being assigned 50% to him and 50% to FA .. apparently enough to put FA into bankruptcy protection to forestall such payment. That wasn't the end of the world - they still make guns every day, and I'm glad of it.

Fa's are good; Rugers are good; custom Rugers can be good. Buy what you want. I have examples of all 3 and like them.

So I repeat my earlier question. What is the point of the hammer block system if it serves no purpose? I would think that FA would be better served from a libility risk to eliminate it all together if they feel that it is inadequate . The fact that it is there will lead some to use it. Of course you should have an empty chamber on a Colt or any of it's clones, but they don't have either a transfer bar or a hammer block.

I would think that FA would be better served to do away with their admitted defective hammer block and remove all questions about how it should be loaded if they are not going to put a transfer bar on them.

Maybe it comes down to the cost tooling, patents, or profit margins? Im sure launching FA's new single shot cost a bundle, and they won't be getting that money back. Those single shots went over like a lead ballon. I still think they would have been better off trying their hand at making a 5 shot double action to compete with Ruger's Redhawk.
I have not made it the range with my new 83 yet, however I have been fondaling it on a regular basis. There are a couple of things I like about it that my Rugers lack: 5 shot cylinder; best grip I have ever felt; super solid lockup, and I much prefer FA sights and ease of mounting various optic bases. This being said, I wouldn't sell 2 or 3 of my custom Ruger to buy another FA. The two revolvers look similar, are made for similar tasks, but I still think its compairing apples to oranges.

Hank, I think there's a difference between "defective" and can be broken. The combination of the hammer block and the FA warning to not load a full cylinder are enough of a CYA legally. To remove the hammer block and not have the warning...that would be foolish. People ignore the warning as it is...at least the block may prevent some from accident.

By the way, I load four in all of my 83's. And it's so habitual, I do it in my 97's.

The 83 utilizes a piece of 1/8inch solid steel bar stock that comes up between the hammer and frame when on safety (first hammer click)...this is not a hammer notch system like the old Rugers and 73 style Colts, that can be broken by dropping or hitting the hammer. You could beat the FA83's hammer with a framing hammer and not get it to fire...and there is just no way you can drop it far enough to flatten the 1/8" bar stock, no way a 3 ,5 or even 10ft drop is going to do.

The problem is that you have to "Set" the safey and it is not automatic like the Ruger. Those guys that drop them 3ft and have them fire Did Not have the 83 on saftey...

The senerio that can cause one to AD is...if a piece of brush catches and pulls the hammer back and another piece of brush pulls the trigger it can fire the weapon...But wait, this senerio will also override the Rugers transfer bar system won't it.

The 83 is safe but not idiot proof......YOU NEED TO ENGAGE THE SAFETY BAR... The new Ruger is idiot proof becuse the bar sets automatically.

The 83 is NO old colt style that can be broken. The guys that only load 4 seem to always have to peep around the end of the cylinder to make sure the empty chamber is in the right place..so pointing the gun, that you just loaded, at your head doesn't sound too safe to me. ANd if you don't look, then you are reliying on your best guesstimate that you have successsfully found the empty chamber.

. The FA83 safety system is as robust as the rest of the gun...and Safe as a Ruger transfer bar...but you have to set it.

I am sorry but you are wrong the hammer block can and has been broken when the gun has fallen on it and the gun has accidentaly fired.

I know one guy that this happened ot when he was running to get in postion and the gun fell from his shoulder holster on to rocks and discharged. Yes the hammer block was in use at the time

So how can you break the bar?? Not really anything to break?? It is more like a penny on the railroad track...nothing to break, it just needs to be smashed flat if the hammer is to reach the firing pin..

How do you know for sure the guy had his block engaged??

I am not trying to mess with you here...just want to learn as much from the facts as I can....so many BS statements on the net is is hard to wade through them all..

When I got my first 83, I tore it apart to see how it was made. After seeing how it was made, I never questioned its' safety. That was 23 years ago. Several 83's later I am still failing to see how the safety can be broken.

Please share what you know...did the end break off the bar?? (Thinking out loud here) but even if the bar broke in half the bar would still be there between the fame and hammer.

And just how did you confirm that after the fact? Was something broken and if so what?

I got my info from one of the top pistol smiths and revolver builders in the world. Yes he examined them. I defer to his expertise and I will go with his word

The term "automatic safety" is used all the time ...the fa 83 is completely safe...but the problem is the safety is not automatic.

Just like everything else we seem to see an increase in..."someone else needs to do it for us" "Govt save and protect use from ourselves"......It is not my fault, The "gun" blew my leg off, killed him etc...the bottle got me drunk, etc..lol

There is some scarey stuff out there guys...here is just one. This will make you sick. http://www.legalshowtime.com/video/227/K...aliber-Revolver

I am not trying to bash the FA-83 as I own 7 or 8 of them and like them and intend to keep them, but let's call a spade a spade

Of course putting an empty chamber up the hammer is a long way from being "automatic".

Hank,

My initial post on clarifying the hammer block was a bit along your lines of thinking, I think. Rather than me tell anyone how they should handle their firearm, I was trying to clarify that when owning a firearm, it is your job to truely understand how it works, in all detail.

Without getting into the weeds of legality here, I would only ask. Does anyone here hunt with an older levergun or break open shotgun? How does one carry one of these, always chamber empty, always with the gun action broken open (single shot). No one here hunts with an older weapon with a dedicated half cock notch as designed by the maker? Not talking about a Colt with the hammer resting on a primer. Sure a FA with an empty under the chamber is drop proof. But as posted above, what about brush snagging the hammer and drawing it back?

In the scenario that JP posted about the gun falling from a holster while running and discharging, I can think of a lot of pistols and rifles where this could happen. I would say this was not a design problem with the gun as much as it was a user gun handling error. It's pretty easy to fathom a scenario that will discharge any loaded firearm unintentionally. So I still say undersatnd the entire workings of your partucular gun and act accordingly for your safety and those around you.

Carrying a loaded firearm is an ongoing active process, not "follow the instruction manual to the penny and assume all will be well so I can now do stupid things".

Craig

Craig, I think this is well stated. You simply cannot prevent human error, and you certainly don't have to be a "clutz" for an accident to happen.

Quote: " in my unasked opionon,you got to be a clutz to drop or discharge your gun by accident"

That is a foolish statement.

Bottom line as always is handle firearms carefully and respectfully, be attentive, and where that muzzle is pointed.

I have carried my 83 with an empty chamber under the hammer. Now I may carry it fully loaded.

Good post and I agree with a lot of what you posted, but to term something safe 100% of the hazards must be removed and the transfer bar system does this.

I only posted the facts so that everyone can process the info and proceed as thy deem appropriate. When hunting free ranging animals in rough terrain it is not unusual to have to run to get in position to have a shot at animal. I have also had a revolver fall from my shoulder holster in rough terrain, a Ruger Bisley in 45 Colt

As Forrest Gump so eloquently stated "sh!t happens"

Darn, I thought I posted this on the wrong thread 20min ago... LOL

I am not trying to be a smart butt, however, the gent in video link stated that it wasn’t his gun, there was only one handgun hunter in the group (and he wasn’t that person) and he wasn’t familiar with the firearm.

So being the “safety advocate” he is claiming to be, those comments are very hypocritical IMHO. Also, if he was carrying the said firearm when it went off, he would have had to have the muzzle resting on his own body. Or did anyone else catch that?

I am not trying to play devils advocate, however, firearms are generous and merit respect. If you don’t respect them YOU will get hurt. That simple…

All right, I have just ordered a new holster with a flap (to avoid hammer snags). Would anybody be interested in going in on a "group buy" for Bowen Lanyard Rings (dropping gun on rocks)?
There is an alternative that no one has mentioned: We carry on an empty chamber, and leave the following chamber empty as well. Unless the brush grabs your hammer twice, or your dropped gun bounces down a clift repeatingly rotating your cylinder, you should survive.
Back to Whit's senario, ... 3 dead bears, and 2 crawl away with limps & black eyes. What do you think?

Ok so someone is running or whatever and the gun isn't strapped in. That someone has a round under the hammer (who knows what position the hammer is in). They are not running with one hand on the gun to prevent it from flopping out of the holster possibly with no retention strap in the first place (all FA holsters have a retention strap). Gee how could there be any possibility for dropping a gun. I'm surprised they didn't also blame the rock that the hammer hit and sue the landowner for having rocks on his property? They could also sue the maker of the slicker for producing a product that can inadvertently cock and fire a gun when removed, same is true for bushes that can cock a gun and pull the trigger.

The FA owners manual clearly states don't carry 5 rounds loaded.

BAZINGA! you got me there, I didn't know that!

JWP,

And your post is exactly what we need in thread like this, all of the facts to help folks make a decision for themselves. I actually checked the instruction manual for a couple of other hand guns I own and both state specifically not to load the gun until shooting is imminent. If I were to follow the rules to the letter, I would not be able to carry a gun for self-defense ;^) So we all violate the manuals, but pretty much have to agree the manual should just be a starting point for the decision.

Gregg, you have probably surmised that I do carry mine with 5 in the holes, sometimes. My gun is carried in a SD Myers custom holster that fits the gun so snug, the cylinder cannot rotate. and it has a thumb break that holds the hammer tight. But, I also hunt alone and try to exercise common sense. And, I am not opposed to changing my carry to accomodate the situation. That is what I was trying to say about an active process. I hunt with my leveractions with the the chamber loaded, in half cock. But if not alone, I adjust and at times will empty the chamber. If on a narrow trail with others, not in the front, shuck out the shell.

Gary, I actually had my FA 83 for quite a while before I figured out how it actually works. I felt really dumb for that, and I had read the instruction manual. But I had not really taken the time to understand. I'll admit to being guilty of skimming over the safety section, just as I do with a lot of pistols. I found quite a few threads on various forum about how to safely carry a 83, but none were as reasonable as we are here. I agree 100%, the FA manual says 4, period. To not do so one had better understand and be responsible about it. Even if you shoot your own bloody leg off...

Craig

JWP said it the way it is.
Freedom instructions for both the 83 and 97 has very large printing that states NO ROUND UNDER THE HAMMER but the entire truth is, the only way to be 100% safe is to never load the gun.
Internal parts are too complicated and they wear out. I seen too many where you could push the hammer and see the pin come out. I made new internal parts. The transfer bar on them is not safe.
Setting the hammer on safe is the same as a Colt and the notch or trigger can break. The hammer block can fail to rise to block the hammer. But you forget as you pull the hammer to the safety notch, the bar drops a little. The farther back the hammer, the lower the bar.
Why did Freedom make a hammer block and a transfer bar system that they, themselves do not trust? The cost to make their internal parts are half the cost of the gun just to save paying royalties to Ruger for the best system ever.
Just how many of you Freedom owners have taken your gun apart?
Wear Depends to keep from wetting yourself.
Funny that in the history of the S&W hammer block, there has never been a failure and the same with the Ruger transfer bar. You MUST pull the trigger. I find that the way to shoot a gun.

There have been some good points made and I feel that common sense applies here. There is NO WAY that I would hunt dangerous game with my Freedom Arms revolvers without five cartridges in the cylinder. I think that the remote chance of an accidental discharge is far outweighed by the very real possibility of needing 5 shots (or more) in a hurry when hunting large, dangerous game. Even with well-placed shots, large animals take awhile to realize they are dead and a lot can happen between that first shot and the death of the animal.

If I'm hunting non-dangerous game, well 4 in the cylinder absolutely makes sense. Just my .02...

Such a great quote I stole it from the FA Lawsuit to post over here...

Thanks, TC. Spend enough time in the woods, and sooner or later everyone is going to have one of those moments where we either do something stupid, or about to do such. It is that exact moment that is the hardest to recognize, but requires that we do.

Craig

I agree with this completely.

I have the answer to FA's problem. They make enough 83's to give one to every lawyer in America, then you put in the manual to carry with all 5 loaded and hammer at full cock then they get to on a mule ride in rough country. Eventually FA's and Americas problems will be solved.

Oh man, Craig, you are starting to sound like my good buddy wa...
Oh... I won't finish...don't want to sound ...

Haha! Problem solved!

If your FA83 has a scope, theres no way dropping it can impact the hammer. I carry one everywhere in a bandoleer. on quads, horses, in and out of boats, etc

Greg,

Now that I am recently divorced, and about to turn 50, I have those "is this gonna leave a mark" moments more frequently. No one around to haul my dumb you know what to the emergency room ;^) And it's not really different than hunting remote areas alone, even if you have buddies on the hunt. Stupid move with the gun, your foot or your head and you might end up using that little fee on your license for search and rescue ;^) I figure by now, I have several dollars in credits. Should be enough for perhaps an aerial ride, ya think? At least I do not have to worry about where my horse is about to step......

Craig

Craig,

Just wait another 20 yrs. It does not get better.

Anything can happen. It's less likely but I wouldn't want to bet anything significant on that assertion.

Actually Craig and I have had some interesting conversations and it's safe to say we are on the same page

Hell, we are on the same book, not just a page. LOL!

Imagine that!

I have to say that this thread has disgressed to a POS. I have no problem wirh my Faa's

I agree, we have gotten way off track. I guess a few of us need the ban hammer or a time out in the corner. I just hope while I am in the corner I can practice a little dry firing, and putting my FA hammer block into position ;^)

Craig

Please define what is a POS; and how/why did this thread change to that according to your opinion?