Recovered Bullet from Mule Deer

I had meant to post this a couple months ago.

This is a 400 grain Hornady XTP recovered from my Mule Deer I killed with my Dixie Firearms .475 Linebaugh last November. I know that these XTP's aren't recovered that often so I wanted to share. It weighs 386 grains and was recovered under the hide on the off shoulder from a quartering away shot while he was on the move.

I had about the same expansion I am guessing from a .430 240 gr XTP on the deer I shot this year. It was only about 65 yds and coming out of the barrel at 1500+ fps it just drilled its way through 2 ribs and never did open up.

I knew there was a reason why I bought so many 400gr. xtp's for my 475. I look forward to giving her a shot now. They held together alot better then the 250gr xtp did when shot out of my SRH..

How fast are you running that load?

They do hold up, but often don't expand much if any.

S4s4u, I am not a chronograph guy; although I used to be to a point where I think I burned myself out on it. I am loading the 400 XTP with 25.5 grains of H-110 out of a 5 1/4 inch barrel. This load has now killed three mule deer bucks and two bull elk in two years (seasons) and I see no reason to change a thing

That is the standard load I use and give to my clients for their guns as it has consistently been accurate in every 475 I've tried it in. That load out of my 6" is going 1350 which as you can see by Greggs record with his and the bison Ed shot is more than adequate for big animals. It's also basicly a twin to the factory Hornady ammo. I've pushed it harder but found the gains in velocity weren't worth the extra recoil or abuse to the gun. I also started running into high pressure signs not much over that.

Man, that is NOT how I pictured an xtp to perform. That basically looks like a copper hard cast bullet!

This gives me concern with my 45 colt shooting the 250gr xtp.

Maybe I was just expecting more? Is this how that bullet is designed to perform? If so, I think I may be using the wrong bullet for what I want to do.

I'm running the same load out of my 7 1/2" FA's and mine are running 1335 fps.

Gregg it doesn't look like it opened up to much, so was wondering if you could give us some details on what kind of damage it did on the deer, and also do you think it would open up a little more on a heavier animal like Elk or Moose?

RT the 250gr. xtp is alot softer bullet you shouldn't have any problems with it in your colt.

The 400 grain .475" XTP is actually an XTP MAG. Big difference in construction.

yeah the 250 will open up just fine on deer at 45LC velocities, the mag is designed for tougher animals and/or higher velocities.

Yup, but without a good nose profile. Penetration doesn't seem to have been great either judging by the fact that the bullet was recovered.

That was my thought.

Ok, didn't realize the bullet being talked about was a MAG. Makes me feel better about my bullet choice for the Colt!

Thanks!!!

The buck was following a hot doe track through some fairly heavy black timber; I intercepted him but couldn't get a shot. I circled and tried to get ahead of him but instead ending up flanking him. I waited till he was in the clear and shot off-handed. The bullet entered behind his last rib and shattered the off-shoulder. The bullet stopped just under the hide.

Hitting heavier bone on a bigger animal may or may not cause it to open up more. I can't say for sure; on the two bull elk I have killed with that bullet they exited.

RT, you might also try the Speer 260 HP and compare them shooting into milk jugs and wet newspaper.

Thanks Gregg for the info. Was wondering what slowed that bullet down enough to find it still in the deer. I'm a little surprised it still didn't pass through thou.

pass throughs are subjective, I've seen some weird stuff with identical bullets so you really can't judge them all the same. I don't know if a hard cast or solid would have even come out on that particular shot. There are way too many variables that can affect penetration. I've had (on the same animal) a round go through the rear hip of a 700# bull and end up in the front of the chest cavity and the finish shot went through two ribs and stuck in the off shoulder. Both shots were at roughly the same range with the same gun and loads. the first one went through the hip length wise so it had gone through over 6" of bone and continued through the guts and one lung. The second had a third that distance and half as much bone to go through but still didn't make it out.

I would call that bullet a failure. It failed to open, and it failed to exit despite not opening. However, it killed the animal graveyard dead, so how can we call it a failure?? What a tangled web we weave.........

Sorry! i just cant help myself....why not just use cast. ha ha i did say i was sorry

I've killed 3 deer with a 375 gr. cast performance bullet out of a 480 Ruger SRH. 2 of the 3 died quickly with quite a bit of blood lost and the third was shot broad side at about 25 yards ran approx 30 yards and was still on his feet when I got up to him. I finished him off with a head shot. The first shot was a passed through, but no blood coming out of either hole. I have no idea how long it would have taken for him to die had i not put a finisher round in him. So as far as cast and jacket go, I've had good and not so good performance from both. From now on with cast the shots will be going into the front shoulder.

You don't have to worry about your 250gr. XTP not opening up. I have never had any problem with this bullet opening.

I can think of many reasons, but we best let this thread stay on course ;-)

I would agree. Somewhere in the archives here somebody said something about each bullet is its' own case?? (or sumpin' like that...)

Like Rod said: I (we) "have seen bullets do some strange things."

And none based on logic, only emotion.......LOL! Sorry, couldn't resist, Rod!

I don't emote, brother ;-)

There are so many variables that come into play, you can't really judge this and you all know that. I bet if you looked at the video from the other side, the hide probably stretched 2 feet out and came back. I've seen it on deer and in videos of African game even. I've had two CAST do the same thing, both were cast from LBT molds so there is no "it was a bad cast bullet" thing. Sometimes, strange things happen. I've had a 260 grain slug stop in a deer that weighed 110 pounds on a broadside shot. I put it dead through the center of the shoulder at 110 yards at a muzzle velocity of 1890 fps from my FA 454. The hide was just hanging loose on other side. She never ran but that is the ONLY 454 slug I've ever recovered, cast or jacketed. Things just happen. I just find it odd that Gregg's picture has been posted in numerous other sites today and used as an example of bullet failure. Just tacky. He was just trying to show a bullet he recovered.

Congrats on the mulie Gregg. The XTP mags are just tough bullets

And by posting it, it was open to scrutiny and discussion. Of course there are a multitude of factors that come into play, but you cannot ignore the fact that this bullet didn't expand and it was recovered, so it didn't exit. I feel it is a failure as such. However, as I pointed out above, it would be hard convincing a jury that the bullet failed as it was recovered from a dead mulie. So, you can't really say it failed in the grand scheme of things, just that it failed to do what it was designed to do and that was to expand. Granted, that doesn't mean this is the norm, but I have used XTPs in various calibers and weights and this is not that uncommon. They are really tough and a good choice when velocities are high.

Stuff does happen to any and every type of bullet, no doubt. But consistency is a really important issue to me when I hunt, and even though you cannot ever have any product that is 100% infallible, I try to stack the deck in my favor whenever possible.

Just pulling your chain, Rod!

Gregg's bullet from that mulie is an example of why we must be careful in shaping our opinions based upon our own experiences. Few of us ever shoot enough animals with a particular load and bullet to have a substantial basis for an opinion on its performance. As has been pointed out previously, in any one situation unexplainable things happen.

Specific exceptions to the "limited experience" above exist. I, for one, listen carefully to those who have used a particular projectile on many animals. We are fortunate to have a couple of members on this forum who are in that category.

Rapper, The 45 cal. 250gr XTP you use in your Colt will have a more mushroom shape expansion if you should recover one. I`ve used that bullet in my 454 along with the double cannalure 300gr XTP to take a number of animals in the past. I`ll try and post some photos. James

Gregg, Here is a recovered 475cal 400gr XTP bullet from their factory ammo that was found on the off side of a water buff.Lost 103.5grs weighing 296.5grs and lost jacket. One stop shot...

describing a bullet failure is a funny thing, i shot an oryx with a 420gr hardcast, complete penetration, i put the animal down later with another shot. both were through the vitals, both bullets evidently did their job. 2nd shot was approximately 6 miles from the first. had i found an xtp in the animal that looked just like greg's i would've found it hard to call it a failure, though i felt like the oryx hunt recently wasn't a failure, it sure didn't make me feel like i used the right bullet. i've also seen some very slo mo camera footage on the offside of animals shot and it's amazing how far that hide will stretch and hold a bullet. i've shot the same size oryx with a number of different bullets and recovered a few expandables up in the hide. the animals were recovered within 60 yards of where they were shot. not a failure imho.

Gosh, we over analyze everything here don't we... I LOVE IT! haha.

Interesting, thanks for sharing Gregg, and that is a beautiful buck.

I like reading through all the posts and seeing every bodies take on this stuff.

I at first also thought, huh, a 400gr 475 not passing through a deer? but like everyone said, weirder things have happened and we all know the end result

I have also always liked the 250gr. xtp. Very accurate, and deadly. I think I stated before in this post that the only thing with the bullet is that it sepirated from the jacket upon hard impacts. Just like your 400gr. from the 475.

That was a concern of mine as well. Again, I will reiterate that you would be hard pressed to convince a jury that this constituted a bullet failure, and really it didn't as it killed the mulie graveyard dead. However, the bullet was designed to open and it didn't.

Perhaps it really wasn't designed to open??

AH HA! ... now we are getting philosophical! lol

they definitely aren't designed to open like most hollow points

This thread has been interesting. When I first read it I thought wow it didn't expand. Then I sat there and thought about it for a minute and realized not only did it not expand but it didn't exit. So without expanding it managed to use all of it's energy inside the animal like an expanding bullet is designed to do but somehow accomplished that without expanding. Makes me think it may have hit a rib at a weird angle and tumbled. Either way it resulted in a dead deer and a nice one to boot.

Yep, and that is the name of the game. I don't know what to think about whether the bullet "worked" or not, but it definitely "worked".

Most definitely! But it does raise some interesting issues.

the key is for these issues to raise questions and have a discussion. as long as it doesn't degenerate into personal attacks and bad feelings. this is done well at this site. one could easily say use cast, but then ya could show a moutain lion pic with a large bore cast round in the hide. these things happen, dead animals are the key and we're all really after the same thing. i appreciate the pics greg.

LOL! I recognize the reference!

haha, i use both and i'm an eternal experimenter, till africa, aframes and busters on the biguns

Keeps it interesting!

Holy crap my heading is spinning from all this info!! This is AWESOME!!!

James, good photo; that is what I would have anticipated for the 400 gr. XTP to look like after it "worked."

And thanks fellas for the compliments as well as sharing so much info; ie. like raptortrapper said!

i remember reading many years ago about a fellow that was complaining to John Nosler that his bullet that was recovered didnt work. Mr Nosler response was at what point in the dears death did the bullet not work? i think we as hunters spend too much time thinking about what a bullet looks like, putting a hole all the way through/ or expending all a bullets energy in an animal, ect. meet in the freezer is meet in the freezer.

The XTP mags dot ever expand all that much for me. Now, hitting a water buff is a different critter and it should. But deer/elk in some cases just aren't enough but the terminal performance side is always excellent. We come back to the point of any nose distortion causes disruption and when they start out at 45 or so and up, who cares. I like that we have choices and that there are so many good choices out there on jacketed and cast for us to use. But the one problem I see among us handgun hunters is that they want to argue which is "best". What is your favorite may not be someone else but that doesn't make it wrong. You don't have to beat people up to prove your best should be their choice also. Just silly when we have so many people out there against us as hunters or gun people and we want to argue amongst ourselves. Just silly and doesn't accomplish anything in the process. If it works, it works, simple as that. I use both types and will continue to do so regardless of what the popular theory is at any given time. Just remember, those that "follow" are always behind

I don't see anyone beating anyone else up on this thread. In fact, it has not only been civil, it has been interesting (at least for me it has). If we cannot discuss/argue the merits of one bullet over another, what is the point of these threads and these websites? If we all agree on everything, these sites wouldn't be all that interesting IMO. I think this thread has raised some good points.

JMHO.

you missed my point. This thread has been Civil and I'm impressed. My point was that we all know the merits of each bullet type, we've beat them around over and over. However, there is nothing to say that the same thing wouldn't have happened in this case with a cast slug. You just never know. In the posts on the other forums where it was reposted, there are the guys that deem it a failure, etc. That's bull and then there are the experts that claim that the cast would have exited in this case....Really??? How do we know that? That's my point. In the end, it doesn't come down to the merits of the bullets, it comes down to people trying to convince the others that their choice is wrong. As far as this slug being a failure, I'd say it performed as expected and designed. I think that the 400 grain XTP is about as close to a cast slug as one can get with a jacketed slug. It has a nice "flattish" front on it and it performs strength wise much like a solid in most applications but its strong enough to perform well in a larger animal. As you have stated, it failed to exit or really expand and it has a HP so it was designed to expand. That's not always the case. In some states, where you have to have a HP slug, this is a great compromise. It passes the law but it will most likely perform as a solid. I've seen that some were able to use the punch bullets in some of those areas just because it has a divot on the nose but they consider it a HP for the purposes of the law. I can guarantee that one will most likely not expand either but it will perform just like the magnum versions of the XTP. In the cases where they do expand, great, if not, who cares, you just shoved a 400 grain slug nearly 1/2" wide through the animal and its dead. So to go out and plaster it as a failure on other sites, I don't agree personally. Would the cast slug do better in this particular case...Who knows....maybe, maybe not. In the end, who cares, it worked and that's all that matters. I've shot a lot of stuff over the years with cast and they are great but they are not the end all for handguns by any stretch of the imagination in my opinion. Just because you hit one with a big cast slug does not guarantee death anymore than it does with a jacketed bullet. They all work and they usually work well. Its up to you to make sure that you match them up appropriately. However, it is nice to know that there are jacketed slugs out there that can handle the chores that normally would go to a cast slug

I didn't miss your point at all. The fact is that with that big hollow cavity up front it will do a poor imitation of a proper, flat meplat (cast, jacketed, titanium plated, whatever). I too think that these bullets were not designed to actually expand, but then they are far from ideal for penetration even if the nose fills up with material. You do realize of course that all handgun bullets on the market in the US are considered expanding bullets, don't you? As you pointed out, that is why the Punch (and the CorBon Penetrator) have a small hole in the nose. It's all semantics anyhow! They are ALL classified as "expanding" bullets whether they actually do expand or not. And I will bet ducks to dollars that the magnum version of the XPT will not perform like a Punch bullet. That meplat (and nose profile) is responsible for wound channel size and stabilizing the bullet in flesh. I have never seen one turn or tumble like this XTP appears to have done.

As I have stated here, as well as elsewhere, it is hard to argue with the results -- it killed the animal quite capably. However, I will stand by the asertion that if indeed, the bullet was designed to expand (and perhaps it wasn't designed to expand), then it failed on that front. It's not that difficult a concept to swallow. Can we agree to this?

On the other sites, where this bullet was posted, it was not declared a failure by the poster, nor do I believe anyone called it a failure unless I missed it. Again, I said that if indeed it was designed to expand and it didn't well, then that aspect of its design failed.

I do prefer a proper flat-nosed hardcast to most bullets, but just like with jacketed bullets, not all of them are created equally (as was the point of the postings on other sites of this bullet), but you will note, that I frequently use jacketed expanding (or not) bullets on hunts/shoots to further my understanding of terminal dynamics and to educate myself with hands-on experience as I don't think one can ever learn too much. It's a never ending process. I used this very same bullet this last weekend on a hog, so despite my perceived biases, I am open-minded enough to see for myself.

I thought this thread was going pretty good and am not sure if I missed something that indicated a heated argument. Maybe on another forum but that's why I am here. I will say that this has been about the best forum group or the fastest mods I have ever spent much time around. I don't see a problem with a xtp mag not expanding properly if they are designed for larger thicker skinned game. As far as best bullets I say use what you have confidence in. Though I wouldn't call this a complete failure I will say that the bullet used is probably not the best choice for deer but it will kill them as will many other. Probably a great choice if hunting both elk and deer.

This is a great thread and the type of dicussions we should have. Id just add that it appears the original bullet lost some weight and perhaps the loss of weight did come from violent expansion and despite the fact it wasnt mushroomed it very well may have done lots of wound damage from the fragments cutting vital tissue on the way through. Recently a friiend shot a 125 lb hog on my land with a 240 gr xtp factory hotnady load at 15 yards. Some small portion of the bullet passed thru the shoulders because we found about a 50 small pieces of the bullet spread over about the size of a softball on the offside of the vital cavity and in te hide on the offside. The entrAnce hole into the chest cavity was about twice te size of my fist. I thought he had to have Spined te hog as it just dumped over. First non cns Drt hog kill ive seen with a pistol. It was impressive and no i wont use that bullet on big stuff but what seemed to have happened with gregg's bullet is what is seen with some of the CEB rifle bullets. Just food for thought.

Okay, so if I can put this all together, and draw one conclusion from all of this, it would be that the bullet would have been just fine if he hadn't used magnum primers. Is that correct??!!

LOL, don't go down that road and by the way I like MAGNUM PRIMERS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

HAHA!!! Yeah, that is a one way road to "Guys... I'm watching!"

Love the chocolate horns on that deer.

I have had the offside hide catch several bullets over the years. Most (not all) had a reason for the bullet recovery, shoulder, spine, distance or hard quarter. Our whitetails go 275ish lbs on the hoof max for the big ones. Using .44 mags and .45 colt mags we use the expanding bullets like the Barnes X and Swift A frames. If our deer were to suddenly grow to 350 lbs or more I think less expansion like this XTP mag bullet or hard cast would be considered.

Greg, moving forward will you continue to use that same load for your deer hunting?

Again, great buck!

Yes, this load has accounted for two bull elk and three mule deer bucks in two seasons.

FWIW, it appears the bullet did mushroom because the petals broke off near the bottom of the hollow point nose or hole. You are seeing the side of the bullet basically from the bottom of the hole down to the base.

I'd say that "works" just fine.....

That's what I thought you would say. Your results prove the effectiveness.

I can only use shotgun slugs, muzzle loaders and handguns to hunt deer in my state. Every bullet we shoot is moving at 1400 fps or less. Large farms are two hundred acres here. Large expanding bullets are preferred. We have learned to hunt them up close.

Where you put your bullet is 95% of your result IMO.