45 Super vs 10mm for Hunting

I'm sure this has been beat to death with the 45acp vs 10mm, but I'm looking to those with real life experience hunting deer and the performance of 45 Super compared to 10mm.

I'm leaning to the 45 Super just because it's a bigger bullet, but I'd like to know from those that know.

Here are a few links to the data I'm gathering for comparison.

https://www.underwoodammo.com/10mm-auto-220-grain-hard-cast-flat-nose/
https://www.underwoodammo.com/45-super-255-grain-hard-cast-flat-nose/
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V-e3BTkzr_M

To me....about the same

Bras,

No, not much in the way of historical "beating" between these two caliber, around here. In my time here, I recall very few caustic debates trying to tell someone their choice of caliber is wrong.

With that, and no actual data for the bullets myself, I would note that I tend to the super, as I like the commonality of 45 diameter components. The 45 super round you linked to is of the traditional weight and shape of the 45 Colt cartridge. I have spent many an hour on the web searching that bullet shape for results on game. Not a lot out there, besides folks generally noting the historical use of the bullet, and it should work great.

All be it that bullet in hardcast form is probably a lot different than the old swaged design, which is probably more historically accurate. I think folks who choose to hunt with lead tend more to the more modern designs with larger meplat areas, ala LBT or similar design. I have a lot of recipes for your linked bullet that I load for various Supers, but they tend to be my carry at the ranch loads, not hunting, per se. I know it will penetrate for days, and has a reasonable meplat. And the shape makes chambering for the autos, easy.

Lots of folks, many here, have harvested whitetail deer with both calibers. Certainly they have done so harvesting hogs. As Hoggin more succinctly noted, if I were making the choice based soley on deer, I too would call it a wash.

Your post and criteria make me think that perhaps you do not handload. If that is the case, you might ultimately find more satisfaction with the 10mm.

Craig

In my experience a 10mm,180 XTP at 1300+ FPS penetrates about the same as a 45 Super 230 XTP @ 1000+ FPS. The difference is the 45 Super expand significantly larger and leaves larger holes. IMHO the Super is higher on the food chain.

I'd have to go with the 'Super'. They'll both work if you do your part, I just prefer the .452 over the .401 and 230grs over 180/200grs.

This ^^^ and the fact that the .45 has a better chance of performing well if expansion is less than expected.

As a single point of comparison: One of my hunting buds has thus far never experienced complete penetration with 180 gr hollow points from his Glock 20 whereas I have gained complete pass through performance with half of the 200/230 gr HP's fired from my Glock 21.

Thanks for the info guys.

Bearbait, you are correct, I don't reload, so the underwood ammo was going to be my choice, unless someone noted a better option.

Looks like the 45 Super will be my pick, and I'm really leaning toward a Springfield XD or XDM for the way they fit me better than glocks. It looks like spring upgrades will be the only thing needed then. The benefit of using the factory springs to shoot 45acp just adds to the flexibility.

jwp475, Thanks for the pictures, and if anyone has performance pictures (Downed deer / hogs), please post them.

Thanks.

185 .451 bullet next to 210gr .41 bullet


Doe with super

reflex264,

Great pics, thanks. Do you use hollow points exclusively or have you tried hard cast, and what's your thoughts on both? Also, what distance did you shoot the doe at?

Thanks.

I have no experience with the 45 super. I have enough to say that that picture of the 180 xtp is a bullet that shed some weight. If so it was expanded significantly larger at some point along its path. That said the picture of the 45 looks nice. I personally shot only jacketed hollow points in mine. A jsp would have been nice. A heavy cast in the 10mm would be a great penetrator but wouldn't have a large enough meplat for me to use on deer. The 45 I might try cast of I could find a profile I liked that would feed reliably. It would be nice to have a little tougher hollow point for the 10mm and super. Both of those bullets are made to expand at 40 and standard 45acp velocities.

The 185 grain XTP is a tougher bullet than the 230 XTP and foes not expand as large in my experience with the Super. The 185 XTP penetrated much better than I expected.

I have used the 265gr beartooth in the super and Rowland. It does a great job. The 185 Nosler is great on deer. I shoot it at 1200 from the super.

PS- I get Marshall to size the 265gr to .451"

The 265 is an excellent bullet!

Good stuff guys, thanks. I'm still leaning to the Super, and trying to trade for a Sig Scorpion 1911 now. Would I have any concerns with the Super in a standard, non-ramped (fully supported chamber) barrel?

I do not use a ramped barrel, if the lockup is correct and the recoil spring correct there is absolutely no need for a rampted barrel.

You might check out Razor Dobbs. He has taken everything up to and including elk with a 10mm and double tap ammo.

Decision made, here is what I got.

Sig Scorpion



Picked it up this morning, BNIB with Blackhawk Serpa Holster, also got some standard 45acp 230gr ball ammo.

As soon as I got home, I cleaned and lubed it, replaced the factory recoil spring with a 24lb recoil spring I had laying around, and took it out for some testing.

So far it runs the ball ammo flawlessly, and accuracy is great. Shoots POA=POI at 10yds.

I'm sure the heavier recoil spring would be problematic with lighter weight rounds, but I don't have any intention on going lighter. This gun will be set up for deer season using 45 Super ammo.

When I get the Super ammo in, I'll test it and see if further spring upgrades are needed, and start stepping back on the yardage, to see how POI is affected.

This is my first Sig ever, and so far I like it, Mine looks a little darker green/brown than in this factory photo. On line reviews are hit and miss for this pistol, but I was willing to give it a try.

Thanks for all the input guys. I think the 10mm would work great, but the bigger 45 bullet is what made my choice. I'll update later.

Nice piece!

Wow, that was brain numbing!

I just spent the past few hours researching correct spring combinations for a full sized 1911 shooting 45 Super.

Everything from "JMB designed it for blah blah blah" to "it's like putting nitros in a pinto".

Does anyone have real good information on spring combinations that help reduce the abuse from the round without creating abuse from the springs?

How bout it Hoggin? Any advice?

Thanks.

I've done a LOT of load development with .45 Super, running it in several different platforms . I've not used it a lot in the 1911 so far but I have plans to do more. That said the .45 Super (btw 450 SMC is basically a small primer version of the .45 Super) you get from Underwood or Double Tap is very similar to warm 10mm ballistics, so I would think spring weights for those loads would be very similar to what 10mm guys use in their 1911's.

I would probably get at least a 24lb spring and go up from there just to test out, see which one works best. I have a 28lb I'm plan on testing out. I did run some mid-level .45 Super through a bone stock 4.25" Ruger LWT CMD (250gr @ 1050 fps), but it needed more spring. The fullsize 1911 will benefit from the heavier slide, so coupled with a beefier spring it should handle the mid-level loads just fine.

Brasf0311,

Been doing Rowlands and Supers for more than a 15 years on the 1911 platform (Supers not quite as long). If the 24 pound spring worked well in your gun, meaning the brass did not dribble out, you may need additional gun mods.

You need to research flat firing pin stops on the 1911 forums. This mod, along with a heaver mainspring (the spring in the mainspring housing) are really the best places to start. When you run recoil springs greater than 24 pounds, you can get into seriously bad situations where the slide is running too fast on the return to battery.

When this happens, you can get feeding issues, and more significantly bullet setback issues which can cause a case blow out. You have probably read the Whoa Mamma series on the 45 Super, and in my experiences, I disagree with his assessment that all you need to do is keep uping the recoil spring weight.

It is possible that your gun came with mods that are great for a stock 1911, like a heavily radiused firing pin stop, and even a reduced mainspring/hammer spring. 23 Pounds is stock for Colt 1911's. 19 pounds is a common weight for guns with trigger jobs, and I run 25 pounds in my Supers and Rowlands. The heavier main spring and flat bottom firing pin stop greatly aid in slowing the slide down on the back stroke, which also slows it down on the front stroke, by letting you use lower weight recoil springs.

besides starting with the mods I noted above, I would also use the stock spring (should be 18-20) with performance 45 acp factory fodder ( or duplicated handloads) in the unmodified gun to see where your brass is landing. Should be 6-8 feet out. Then try the mods. Looking for brass to be barely making it out of the gun. Brass ejection is a poor guage all in all, but better than waiting for the frame lugs and recoil slide tunnel to start showing signs of battering.

If you are looking for 28K psi loads in the super, it should be pretty easy to do. If you plan on going into low Rowland territory, the gun needs to be evaluated for more than just heavier recoil springs, only.

Craig

You guys are awesome, Thanks.

Hoggin gave me some good info too. So here is what it looks like my next step is to handle the Underwood 255gr Hardcast or Doubletap 450 SMC 255gr Hardcast 45 Super Ammo.

Order new springs and components as follows;

Recoil Spring- Wolf Variable 18lb with heavy firing pin spring.
Hammer Spring- Wolf 25lb
Firing Pin Stop- EGW Standard (non-radiused)
Strong Magazine- Wilson Combat, Chip McCormic Power Mag, or ACT mags.

Bearbait, I'll try the ejection test as you recommended and see how it goes.

From the info I have gathered, this seems like a good place to start. I understand that there may be further tweeking needed, but I feel pretty good about this set up as a starting point.

This thread seems to be turning into a handgunhunt.com pistol build. I do appreciate all the help. I believe I'll have to post all the updates and results, even with the next seasons deer harvest. Maybe I can get my wife to video the hunt for me.

Thanks again, and any other suggestions are welcomed.

I use a 20 pound Wilson flat wire recoil spring in mine

Brasf0311,

Sounds like you are getting off to a good start. With factory ammo, you do not need to worry about the reloading side, at this point. Starting focus on the gun.

If you have found the lengthy 45 Super reloading on the Glock Talk Forum, it makes for a good read, if you have many hours. Those folks have really pushed the envelope on the handloading of the Super. If you are able to get through it, and even find additional threads/posts by those in that thread, you will see some of the folks have dialed back from the possible, to the slightly more sedate of the practical. meaning, not shooting the gun to pieces. I have broken more than a few 1911's and pieces, over the years.

Your Scorpion looks like a dandy, and it certainly deserves consideration as a platform.

Craig

If one is loading the Super much over 1300 FPS with jacketed 230's they are getting into the low end 460 Rowland territory.

Thanks again for the info guys.

I plan to stick with factory loads that use 200gr or heavier bullets. I like the bullet profile of the Doubletap 450 SWC 255gr.

http://www.doubletapammo.net/index.php?route=product/product&path=303_354&product_id=568

I don't have the need for speed, and after seeing the performance of big slow moving bullets, I was hooked on them.

I think 255gr bullets moving at 1000fps should give me good ethical kills at 50yds or less, and not beat up the gun to bad.

I'm really stoked about this 1911 set up for Super. I love my revolvers and single shot pistols, but this one can really pull double duty as defense and hunting.

Please post any pics of your 45 Super or 10mm that pulls double duty for you.

j





I run an 18 pound spring in this one.

Brasf0311,

Yes, that looks like a "killer" bullet shape. But, that is like the bullet that gave me my first taste of how to wreck a 1911. I am anal on my experimenting and reloading, but at the time did not really understand the feed stroke of the 1911. I was loading this in a Rowland, and the gun was feeding with a "ker-chunk" feeling. This was the bullet whacking hard into the feed ramp. I set a bullet back, pressures went way up, and I blew out a case rim. Cracked the slide, ejected the mag in pieces, and otherwise made a mess.

I recently picked up a Glock 41 MOS, and once the weather gets better, will be doing a little fiddling. The slide on the 41 is thinner and lighter than the 21, so no nuclear loading. I may not even get to, or much higher than 45acp +p, but I am gonna see what I can do with a 250 or 255 grain bullet. Probably gonna pick up a Bar-Sto threaded barrel for it, which would give a full 6 inches of barrel. Hoping that with the longer barrel I can get a 250ish close to 900 or 1000 fps.

Craig

jwp475- sweet, goin after the dangerous game I see. ;-) Aim small, miss small, worked for you.

Bearbait- Thanks for the heads up. Which factory ammo would you recommend?

Midway says my springs should be here in just a couple days. They didn't have the 25lb mainspring in stock, so I went with the 26lb mainspring instead. We will see how that one works out.

Found this guy loading 45 Super and setting up a 1911 for it too. Notice the firing pin drag on the primer. Looks to hot to me.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V-e3BTkzr_M
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z8EXZyBc3qY

As to factory, any that will feed smoothly, not setback and not show smiles or bulges.

I had seen one of his videos, but not the ones you linked. Those are excellent, and I like his detailed approach of explaining the entire "system" of the gun. I would say those should be a must see for someone doing a Super. I would take NO exception to anything he says or does, based on my experiences.

His FP drag marks are what are called tadpoles. Those in and of themselves are not indicative of anything bad. The firing pin is not "getting out of the way" quick enough. My really custom Colt S70 that I use for supers exhibits FP cratering. Cratering is usually associated with excessive pressure for the cartridge. In my case, the craters are a function of the FP hole in the breach being too large. I have been fighting this, and ultimately tried using RWS small primer 45 ACP brass. With less primer diameter, there is less to flow into the hole. Worked perfecty. My original 460 Rowland platform was a Springfield 1911 that used a smaller FP, from the 38 Super design. Never had issues with cratering, even when I was way over my head, pressure wise, with the Rowland.

Both the tadpoles and craters are not indicative of pressure being too high for the case, but the cartridge itself revealing stresses in the entire gun and cartridge combined system. Much like the guy in the videos stressed. A super heavy recoil spring might help in one area, but taken in totality of the system, a bad idea.

I would not worry about a 26# mainspring. You are not going to have a competition trigger pull, but it is what it is. No free lunch when pressing a given platform. Gotta pay, somewhere.

Craig

Thanks Bearbait, you always got the good stuff. Glad I get to tap into everyone's experience and knowledge. I think I'll start with the Underwood ammo and see how it performs.

Here is a beauty that can pull double duty. Sig P220 10mm Elite with Nitron coating.



I have a feeling that this might be next.

Hey guys,

I finally got all my parts in, ammo together, and had some nice weather to test the new Sig Scorpion set up to shoot the 45 Super.

It did really good. I only had one malfunction, and It may have been a magazine issue, or just need to shoot more to break in the gun. The ammo used is Buffalo Bore 255gr. hard cast running near 1100fps. Cases for the BB were landing 8' to 12' away. I also shot cheap Federal 45ACP 230gr. FMJ, and those cases were landing 6' away.

I really like this set up. Next time I will be shooting for groups and varying ranges out to 50 yards.

Pictures are great, but I thought I'd try to put a video together for this. It's the first video I've ever done, so it's pretty bad, but you'll get the idea.

Thanks again guys for all your help.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1iYtSIsDPdk

Watched the video. Not bad at all, and I am jealous, as I was standing in 2 feet of snow shooting on saturday, with a tarp for the brass.

I was watching the gun recoil closely, and it looks very good. My experience with the full size 1911, Super and no comp, is that when the gun violently recoils, the pressure is too much for the gun. Your recoil impulse looked about par for still being reasonable. When the gun twists like a bronc, and the muzzle goes skyward, things are not right.

You noted an 18 1/2 (or 18) recoil spring. The Rowlands come with a Wolff 24. With the Rowlands, I settled on either the Wolff 24, or an ISMI chrome silicon 20. I had a lengthy conversation with the owner of ISMI, back then, and he opined that his 20 would take less of a set than the Wolff 24, and would function better, over time. I was able to confirm this. I have been running the ISMI 20 in my Supers. Just in case you want to experiment some, there. The really nice thing about the 20, is that it is easier on the return stroke, and seems to keep issues with feeding a little more reduced.

I should have all of the spring upgrades for my new Glock, by the end of the week. Looks like I will beginning a new journey, myself.

Craig

Hey Craig,

You guys get snow in NM? Never been there, but I always envisioned it like the Mojave desert. Our snow just melted enough and the temp is finally out of the teens and twenties. My regular range is still to swampy to shoot, but the 1/2 mile driveway pulls double duty when needed.

Thanks for studying the gun recoil for me. Here is a link for the recoil spring I installed- https://www.midwayusa.com/product/286146/wolff-variable-power-recoil-spring-1911-government
I will get the 20lb spring you recommended, and try it out, just to see how it works.
I've been watching for any signs of stress and accelerated wear on the gun, especially on the link lugs for the barrel. All in all, it looks good so far. I've got 100 rounds of Buffalo Bore 45 Super and 100 rounds of the Federal 45 ACP through it as of now.

I was looking at some of the barrel bushing compensators, and I'm just not sure if they would be helpful or not. They do look cool though. Any recommendations for these?

I also wanted to note that the firing pin strikes were picture perfect, with no drag, or tadpole look to them.

Please post the upgrades to your glock and pics too.

Thanks again for all your useful input.

As a general rule, the barrel bushing compensators have a significantly reduced effect when compared to a traditional barrel mounted compensator.

I am not sure who manufacturers it but the round one that looks more like an extended barrel than a compensator has virtually no effect on recoil or muzzle rise. It is more of a "tacti-cool" accessory than a functional one.

Wilson makes a bushing comp that is probably the closest to a true compensator, with actual chambers and baffles. The effectiveness is likely to be less than a real comp due to the larger bore, but it is probably better than the straight through one, or nothing.

I am in northern NM, at 7000'. The weather and terrain is like Colorado. The Rockies are the Rockies.

98Redline is correct, in my experience. The 1911 (and other makes for that matter) rely on the barrel locking to the slide for an instant, to achieve lock up. At ignition, the case slams the slide and imparts a rearward impulse. The bullet engages the rifling, and imparts a forward drag. All the while the slide and barrel are locked together, moving rearward together, until the link pulls the barrel down, at the rear. This is your delayed, locked breach design.

The delay of this process is what needs to be increased, as you have done with the flat FPS and springs. The comp that is standard with the Rowland is a barrel comp, as I presume in testing they figured out that a forward impulse on the barrel, and possibly a force directing the barrel nose down would also help counter the link down, at the other end. Competitors usually use comps to to tweek muzzle rise, dipping ect. to aid return to target acquisition of the sights. In our application, we want to "drag" the barrel forward that last little bit, and push the barrel down a bit at the muzzle. To that end, I feel that comps that have good vertical faces, work better than holes. The expanding gasses in the comp that hit vertical faces can exert more forward pressure. I certainly have no way to test this, but it works for the Rowland, and the same Rowland comp works on a 45acp barrel, running super.

If you visit the length threads on Glocks and Super, you will find that they usually figure this out. When you hang a goodly amount of comp weight on the end of the barrel, and that weight has vertical faces, the result is that it works to our benefit.

With the 1911, wear will be on the frame abutment, where the spring tunnel on the slide impacts (the place you would put a shock buffer). This can peen, and if excessive you can actually crack the frame, at this juncture. This crack is common on very high mileage 1911's, with standard loads. I think your frame has the pic. rail which should add material to this juncture. The other load bearing part for which we have no control is the breech face, and possibly the slide at the ejection port. I prefer my slides to not have excessive lower of the port, as this is metal removed from strength. Dunno. The face of the breech on the slide, about all you can do is routinely check it carefully, for cracks. Food for thought, if you crack the slide at the breach bad enough, the back part of the slide could launch reward, unrestricted.

Definitely the barrel lower lugs can show wear, both the front and back. And the upper lugs of the barrel and slide can show peening, especially if you are on the low side of engagement fit here, while the barrel and slide are in lock up. There is a popsickle stick method of checking your vertical lug engagement between you slide and barrel, if you want to search for that on the 1911 forums. The more the better, but do not fall down the longer link is better, rathole.

these are the reasons I will not be able to go nuclear, with my Glock, as others have. My 41 slide is thinner and weaker than a 21 slide, and is actually a tiny amount lighter, even though it is longer. It has a fair amount of material removed, to allow function with standard pressure 45 acp. I know where and how to trash a 1911 with the hot stuff, still learning on the Glock ;^)

Craig

Thanks for the advice guys,

I saw the bushing comp from Wilson, and believe that to be the best of the bunch, as far as being made from quality material and have the vertical faces of the chambers as mentioned.

http://shopwilsoncombat.com/Multi-Comp-Bushing-Compensator-Full-Size-Blue/productinfo/397/

I'll also be checking the stress points as mentioned, and I have bought the Wilson Combat Shok Buffs too. I didn't have them installed for the shooting session with the video, as I wanted to see if the gun functioned properly, but plan to use them for range sessions only, to help reduce wear.

Thanks again for the insightful advice.

I fall into the camp that does not like buffers on carry guns, but for testing or hunting or plinking, no problem-o. I have used the Wilson, but prefer the CP buffers for this type of application. Be sure to check your spring compression with the buffers, for spring bind. Not good for really hot loads.

Craig

I'm with you. Shok Buffs are for the range and not for duty. I don't want to introduce a point of failure into the system.

I'll keep an eye out for spring bind also. Thanks.

Looks like I am back in the Super game, with the newer Glock. With the 24 pound ISMI spring on the steel ISMI captured recoil assembly for the Gen3 and the Gen 4 adapter ring, was able to test some today.

The barrel is a lone wolf threaded, so it mics out at 5.98 inches. My 230 XTP recipe was yielding 1250 fps, and the 255 Rim Rock .452 swc was doing just short of 1150 fps. Does not look like the frame abutment face at the front of the front frame rails was taking any real abuse. Not a lot of rounds, but so far so good.

As a point of reference, these loads fired from a fitted Kart 1911 barrel and no comp are way too hot for my 1911. They work fine in a Clark 45 acp barrel with comp, on the same gun. The comped Clark 1911 and my Glock 41 feel about the same at firing and recoil. A good hard thump, easy to get back on target. In the non-comped Kart 1911, nothing close to manageable recoil, and pretty violent.

And my Trijicon RMR held on for the ride, just fine. I am actually kinda impressed, so far. I might throttle back a touch, as this was a bit faster than I was expecting, or probably need.

Craig

Of course they are too hot without a comp, 45 Super speeds are 1100 FPS with a 230 jacketed bullet. 460 Rowland top speed is 1300 FPS for a 230 jacketed. You are in Rowland territory

JWP,

Yes, these should be in the 30K psi range. Low end Rowland. But, I have an almost 6 inch barrel, and my plinking loads also chronyed were showing about 50 fps faster than my factory Glock barrel. So I am probably picking up a little speed without the attendant pressure. I was really surprised at how well the Glock performed, without a comp. Recoil was fine, not out-running the magazine or other feed issues.

I will most certainly be treading lightly here, being new to Glocks. With the 24 pound ISMI spring on the conversion Gen3 assembly, 45acp ball (230 at 850) was actually ejecting fine. I am used to that combination just dribbling out of the 1911 modded platform. That's a big red flag, for me. As a matter of fact, I am leaving the 24 in for acp loads, as this was giving much more consistent brass ejection than the stock Glock RSA. The stock RSA gives me a lot of brass upward, landing on my head, and occasionally whacking my RMR.

Trying to stay above Colorado's 550fpe/50 yards hunting ammo rule, so when the weather gets better, I will be get serious looking for an accurate load, hopefully somewhere a little south of these. With the numbers crunched on the above loads, I have more than enough wiggle room here :^)

Craig

I greatly enjoy my M21 Glock 460 Rowland. I have found the XTP Mag in 240 grain & Speer GoldDot and Nosler 230 HP are great penetrators and give great mushrooms when pushed at 460 speeds. The plain XTP is not built heavy enough.