Terminal Ballistics of Cast v. Jacketed

I have no experience hand loading cast bullets. I understand that cast bullets are less expensive, cause less wear on the bore and can be sized to achieve a perfect fit with your cylinder throats and bore. These are important benefits.

However, if I accept that and want to use jacketed bullets anyway am I sacrificing anything in terminal effects?

I am loading for a .44 magnum and want a load that will be effective for both hogs and deer. I probably could do fine with an XTP or other jacketed bullet but the locals tell me to be prepared for the possible truly large hog.

I hope to get to cast bullets at some point but for now I want to load jacketed bullets of somewhere between 240 and 280 grains. My research indicated I need look no farther than Partitions, until my research indicated they are no longer sold.

My additional research indicated the Swift A Frame may be the solution. Although it losses a small percentage of weight with penetration it still appears to end up putting a .44 caliber hole all the way through an animal. Speaking without experience, this sounds pretty much like what a hard cast bullet would do.


Would I get any additional benefit by using hard cast instead? (Other than cost, etc., as mentioned earlier)

Thank you for any assistance.

I have used both cast and jacketed bullets on a variety of animals including hogs and deer, both will work fine. While I know a lot of people like to use heavy for weight cast bullets, I like them as well, just to keep things in perspective I have killed 5 water buffalo and 1 very large hog using a 44 mag with Hornady 300 gr XTP magnum bullets. My point being if you have the XTPs in 300 gr on hand there is really no need to get anything different unless of course you just want to, then, by all means, go for it. I do it all the time.

I'm going to cook up some popcorn and enjoy this thread. Just about everyone on this forum has more experience than I do with handgun hunting, but I know enough to know you will get about a fifty-fifty response to the jacket vs hardcast debate. It's a topic that will never go away, always come back up, and in reality from what I have read through the years not really make to much difference in the long run. I have always favored the jacketed bullets for hunting but carry a 357 mag loaded with 180gr. Bear Load hardcast when scouting or alone in the wild...Go figure.

no cast will do the damage that a top flight expandable will do, not all cast hold their shape. if ya need penetration ya use monometal or punch bullets, if ya want damage use a barnes or an aframe, anything less you'd better be hunting deer or just f!ing around. end of the discussion.

theres a video where a 454 barnes xbp does the same wound channel and penetrates deeper than a 12 gauge slug. the hardcast load has about a 1.5" wound channel. oddly the larger hardcast don't make a bigger wound channel due to lower velocity. the barnes loaded by doubletap had a wound channel of around 5".

A good bullet that holds together and does not break up and reaches the vitals will kill. A 44/45/50 caliber hole is still a 44/45/50 caliber hole. It need not expand like a rifle caliber.
A 30 caliber has a long way to expand to hit the 44 caliber mark.

Six of one, half dozen of the other. Placement is still key, regardless.

Agree

Me too.

As a dedicated cast bullet user for over 50 years I lean that way for hunting anything big or small & of course you can make them do anything a jacketed bullet will do but, having said that, there are lots of very good jacketed bullets out there that have killed everything on the planet. You just have to match the bullet to the game & then place the bullet correctly, then it's end of discussion. Good cast or good jacketed won't make up for bad hits. The premium jacketed slugs are a fraction of a quality hunt, hopefully you won't need that many so use what you trust. Most of us do like a heavy for caliber bullet but that's because we like exit's & you never can predict the angle you're going to get.

Dick

I believe this old argument was started at least 60 yrs ago. At that time bullets of either type were not as good as todays technology. An example would be, if you were using a 30-06 for whitetail with 150 gr and you wanted to shoot an elk, you would choose a 180 gr because they wouldn't expand as quickly. The same is not true today to a certain extent. Now I can use a 165 gr bullet such as a Hornady spire point for deer then switch to a 165 gr Accubond for elk. A short version of the cast bullets is, we had roundnose, then SWC, and finally LFN and WFN. The latter being the best for hunting. I agree with all the advise given above. Match the bullet to the game hunted. Eventually, I think we all learn premium bullets are the best insurance for the hunt!

I have always been a big proponent of GOOD hardcast bullets for all types of game and have used them successfully on all manner of game. I have found that those critical of their use typically have a very limited exposure/experience with GOOD flat-nosed hardcast bullets. Many often make the mistake of over-driving cast bullets thinking more velocity is the answer to quick kills and that with cast bullets is a recipe for disaster. I am oversimplifying, but we have discussed this ad nausea on this site (and others) and I find it somewhat tedious at this stage. I've dedicated chapters to this topic in two books.....

That said, revolvers will never achieve rifle-like velocities. So, working within the limited parameters (read: limits) of a revolver, hardcast bullets work well. If you don't push them too hard, they will penetrate deeply, and break bones along the way. Like Dick pointed out, heavy for caliber is a good idea for deep penetration, not limiting your shot angles. I will continue to use quality hardcast bullets of some game animals. That said....

We have come a long way on the jacketed expanding bullet front and I am going to lump monolithic expanding bullets into this category for the sake of discussion. I don't consider XTPs or even Mag XTPs to be premium bullets. I watched utter and complete failure back to back with Mag XTPs last October and it was enough to give me cause for pause. They are fine bullets for deer and some hogs, but when the target gets tough, I want something that will hold together no matter what. For that, you are hard pressed to do better than the Swift A-frame. They are tough and hold together well and don't over expand. Another bullet I have trouble finding fault with is the Barnes XPB. This is a bullet that is as tough as nails.

Last year, in Hondo, Texas, at Action Outdoor Adventures, where we gather to live test bullets/loads/calibers on large animals, I saw numerous bullet failures -- both of the cast and jacketed variety. Granted, this is an extreme test by anyone's measure, but that is precisely why we do it. Will hardcast bullets work on really big animals? Yes indeed. I killed a really big (2,000 lbs) water buffalo a couple of years ago with hardcast bullets and they worked admirably, but if you have a big trophy fee on the line, and/or (and more importantly) your own butt is on the line, I want a bullet that will punch deep and straight no matter what resistance it encounters. In this case I don't want an expanding bullet, or a hardcast bullet, I want something along the lines of a Punch bullet. It has all of the good characteristics of a quality hardcast flat-nosed bullet, without any of the negatives -- like a material that has a limited ability to maintain its nose shape. When you are on the ground, and close -- no, very close to this (see photo below), it's no time to skimp on quality or cost.

I think that's why these types of threads don't get the emotions going like they used to. We used to be able to sell tickets to these threads. Now everyone is to tired to get into it again! By now, with a dozen posts in on this thread, someone would have called Rod at least 4 names, James would have pounded his fist on the table, somebody else would have broke a beer bottle over Whitworths head, another guy would have been trying to throw Trademark out the window, and Gary would have said, "I'm watching" at least once by now. Me, Briarhopper (Dewayne), and Chance would be sitting back giving high fives and asking each other "OHHHHHH! Did you see that??!!"

I kinda miss those days! It was fun, in a way...

All someone has to do is post something really inflammatory.

It ain't gonna be me!!!

All true, every bullet has came a long way. Those Punch bullets Kellye started making several years ago were great. I think he's since sold the rights to someone else.
My only real experience with a good jacketed slug was with the Speer 270 Gold Dot & it isn't one of the really tough bullets when something a few paces away might want to stomp a hole in your breakfast but it did work great on the one elk I shot with it.
I am surprised about the 300 gr. XTP thought because of what I've read about from Lynn Thompson using them in Austrailia on a whole bunch of Buffalo with great results using high shoulder shots & getting exits on many of them.
I'm only going on what you guys tell me about the Swift A Frames & the Barnes bullets.
Still, I'll stick with cast, & not wanting to argue but agree, some can make too hard of a cast slug. By that I mean brittle. Get carried away with the antimony & you get brittle. I want a tough cast slug, not a brittle cast slug so until I have one fail me, in my house they are still better.
I do enjoy all of you younger guys experiences, that's what makes our game good & makes it better.

Dick

Spinsail has reached a very logical conclusion as a result of his search for an answer to the 60 yr old question. I would add that Good bullets be they jacketed or cast ain't cheap. I have limited experience with hard cast hunting bullets but have found the good stuff as expensive or more so with a decent jacketed bullet. I remember the rather heated discussions on jacketed vs cast as well. I don't think there is a black and white answer. No bullet performs the same all the time on all game. As Whitworth pointed out it is more of a decision of which bullet for what you are after. Just like which caliber is better than the other.

Oh yeah, but it sure is fun. Those old spitting contests did have their place. It caused me to search and search and experiment to find some answers that have really brought great results. I just hope no one hates anyone based on internet sparring. I love good debates and scientifically examining findings and coming up with solutions. Arguments are a-ok with me. Some of my favorite hunting buds are guys some following these threads over the years woulda figured id be trading fists with.

You mean people called me names? My blood pressure was so high my veins in my forehead were blocking my vision. Those were the good old days. There were times had some of us met in person it would have made cage fighting look like kindergarten recess.

In NO WAY, SHAPE, OR FORM do I hate anyone on this forum because of things that have been said. I admit, I flew off the handle a few times myself. To me, we are like family here. Every family has their arguments. But in the end, when it's time for the crap to hit the fan, I believe every single one of us would stand side by side with one another.

It's kinda fun to go back and read some of those knock down drag out threads now!

Yeah, boy those were some good "discussions" back then. I'll never forget some of those conversations! I was actually referring to s4s4U when I mentioned "Rod", but yeah, that little description would have applied to you as well!

I've wondered where you've been, and hoped all was okay. Sure glad to hear from ya again!

Regardless whether your hunting handgun is loaded with cast or jacketed, as long as you put that bullet in the vital of the animal in your sights you will collect your critter......One may work faster then the other or visa/versa depending on circumstances but both will kill, as they have done hundreds of times over, if placed correctly....

You can keep that expanding crap for small game.

Cast bullets are for people too impatient to wait for a broadside shot.

Or for people too poor to afford A-Frames or XPBs.

Or for people using those wimpy 44 Specials and 45 Colts.

HEY NOW!!!

Cast bullets are for people too impatient to wait for a broadside shot.

Or for people too poor to afford A-Frames or XPBs.

Or for people using those wimpy 44 Specials and 45 Colts.





Was that the bell for the next round TN Lone wolf ? hahahaha

BOY...!!!!

You wanna get out of the bleachers and into the ring, keep it up!

I am staying out of this one. The two times I got into it I got a talking to by Gary. I shoot both but primarily XTP Mags, and I came across about 20 boxes of 300gr .452 Partitions. I've played with the Barnes some but they are expensive although since the Nosler Pro shop turned into yuppie central I've gone exclusively to Barnes in my long range rifles, especially my M40 in 300 RUM where I use the LRX bulletsMy 357 Herret I am running what I have left in 200gr SST's. My encore 300 Win Mag I switched to Triple Shocks from accubonds and my 375x444 I am running Hornady 270gr Spire points to break it in with and depending I may go with triple shocks there. My last 3, 375 JDJ's I ran 260gr accubonds. Oregon has gone to hell and Leupold and Nosler with it. They cater to yuppies. Oregon Trail and Cast Performance are still holding together though. I run CP's in my 500 Linebaugh and with the discontinuation of the 400gr XTP I will go back to them for my 475 Linebaugh also. I use 430gr Oregon Trails in my Marlin 45-70. Aside from all the useless info I provided the one thing I have found is whatever you use you have to have full confidence in it.

I am "all in" with Cast Performance and the 335gr WFNGC for 45 Colt and 460 S&W.

What now? An avowed rifle shooter on a handgun site?
Heresy I tell ya!

This is just hilarious. Ahhhhh.... the good ol days....!

I'll say this...shoot whatever you want and like...I know what's better and use them every time that I hunt. Come hunting with me 😉 I'll show you how it's done with one shot, not 7, 8, 9 or 10 😂😂😂I like jacketed and monometal is FAR superior to cast

I just got back from a handgun hunt with some of the absolute best shots out there. These gentlemen...and my wife 😉 can shoot the lights out...that's 98 percent of it

You're making the mistake of comparing bottle necked rifle cartridges with much greater velocities to revolver cartridges. The dynamic is completely different.

I want to go hunting with Francise. Cast or Jacketed. Whatever it takes!

Come to the JRH Holiday, it's scary at times!

Correct, there's no way you can compare the two. A rifle cartridge will always be a rifle cartridge, whether you cut the stock off or not, can't compare it to a revolver cartridge.

Dick

I'm really not guys 😉😊 just having a good time joking with my buddies! 😆 life's too short to take this stuff too seriously. Shoot what works for you 👍 I'm just glad y'all shoot handguns

My favorites are the cheap winchester usa hollowpoints. Those or the soft 45 colt cowboy loads. I like to unload em and load em hot into my 460. That way they melt on the way to the animal and its just like paintball.

Tell me about the JRH Holiday. When? Where? What?

A group of us gather every October in Hondo, Texas to perform live bullet/load/caliber testing on bovines (Watusi, water buffalo, bison, long horn). All of this is done on the ground at spitting distance and we've had a couple of "oh crap" moments with bovines exhibiting attitude and bad behavior. Last year we put a dozen animals (give or take) down in 2 1/2 days. The skinners were crying!

I'm guessing those skinners had blisters! Hondo is an interesting place, spent some time there one year when we were wintering at Bandera. They also have a very interesting "event" called a "Hog-Dog" baying contest. Didn't see the one they had there but I attended one east of San Antonio & it was wild to say the least.
There was a guy inside the ring with a plastic 55 gallon barrel cut in half, length ways that kind hazed the feral hogs a bit. I won't go into too many details but when I started videoing they told me to turn off my camera..... Anyway, the guys I was hunting with told me some really crazy stories about these events. They had huge trophies they handed out.
This is some of the feral hogs used in the Hog-Dog baying contest. I have another photo of the guy standing behind the half barrel I'm trying to find, he was pretty busy keeping those hogs away from his legs!



Dick

Being a rookie I could use a little help. Could you guys give me the name of the of the cast bullets that you prefer. I plan on loading in 44 mag and not sure which direction to go as far as the weight is concerned. Not knowing much but is there a big difference in bullet weight versus recoil?

Forgot to ask, what is a punch bullet?

Thanks,
Bamabow

A punch bullet is a brand of solid bullets that are machined out of brass. They'd don't deform when hitting bones and such and travel straight through your target. Considered by many to be the ultimate performance cast style bullet. They are expensive. I'll let others answer the 44 specific question.

If you are looking to purchase some top notch cast slugs, I will suggest Montana Bullet Works. They are insanely quick to ship, good folks, and produce a fine slug.

My buddy ordered from Beartooth bullets in October of last year and just received his shipment notice. When he called to ask about his order they shrugged him off. He won't order from them anymore, and I can't blame him.

I'm not bashing Beartooth, but if you want them sooner than later, Montana Bullet works is the way to go.

Yes, if all are driven hard. You can load down heavy bullets to a lesser velocity than a lighter bullet and reduce recoil respectively, but "for evey action there is an equal and opposite reaction" and if pushed to their limits heavier bullets will kick harder.

Montana Bullet Works is a good source for cast bullets for a .44 mag. My experience with them was with the 300 gr Wide Flat meplate and the 265 gr semiwadcutter both with gas checks. Both were very accurate. I shot local whitetail weighing in between 130 and 150lb. at ranges of 100 to 125 yds with both bullets. The deer were equally dead with either bullet. No bullets were recovered. I prefer the 265 gr at higher velocity for the flatter trajectory and slightly less recoil. The 300 WF was interesting as well. At 100 yds I could hear the thump of impact even with ear protection and substantial hearing loss. No leading with either bullet. Dave will guide you as to hardness vs velocity you intend to shoot.

Cast Performance are the only hard cast I use. Never an issue, and VERY consistent from bullet to bullet. I like heavy for caliber, so I liked the 335gr WFNGC for my 45 Colt. Order on Monday, go shooting on Friday.

Whit

Is the JRH Holiday open to others? Can you send me the details?

Thanks
Mark

Ive liked my rimrocks. Quick shipping as well

Cast Performance, Rimrock, Montana Bullet Works, Beartooth, all make good cast bullets. Just don't order from Beartooth if you're in a hurry.

Mark, I will send you a PM.

Thanks guys for all the help.
Bamabow