a-frame accuracy

Before we leave the topic of how good Swift A-frame bullets perform on game,
I want to show you guys one of my old targets.........
Sometime back in 2012 I bought some of Federal`s 454 ammunition that was loaded with a 300gr.
A-frame and went to the range,
in preperation for a boar hunt, and shot this 100 yard three shot group that measured 1"
CxC....Besides being deadly they are also accurate....
Doubt very much I could repeat...The photos also show the boar I shot at around 60 yards with these bullets and the bottom picture shows the exit of one of the 300gr A-frames....

Thanks for sharing James
Accuracy & terminal performance? Outstanding results! I plan to try the 265?s alongside the Barnes 250x in my BFR-454 this fall.
Did that boar travel any distance after the shot?

James, I apologize if this is off topic but I have read a lot of your stuff and it seems you like both the A Frame and the XTP. I also load both of those but I lack your experience and I would like to know when you choose one and when the other.

I don't want to "step" on James' answer, but I've used a lot of AFrames and XTPs. It's a no contest to me. A Frames are far superior. Right, James?

Buck, He flopped around a bit after the shot when I popped him with a 22 in the knoggin...
Spin and Larry, Oh yeaaaa they are superior to the XTP.... A good example of purposely loading an A-frame was the mule deer hunt I took. Nothing to chance... Worked perfectly...Another time was when I knew I was going for a big boar in Tennessee and using my 41mag... When you need consistent expansion and weight retention then the A-frame is the way to go... The XTP is good but the Swift is better.....

Swift A-frames.....300 grains .454 Casull. Very accurate. 50 yards I believe.



Shot this group at 100 yards with Swift A-frames (Federal .454 load):

I'm not a fan of XTP's at all. I rarely see one that hasn't shed the jacket & core if it hits anything of substance. The A-frame is the best bullet out there right now IMHO.

Max, didn't you say in your book "Hunting Revolvers" that the .454 Casull and the A-Frame were a match made in heaven?

I would agree completely!

Impressive accuracy! Unlike others I've been impressed with XTP Mags from a .454 Casull (on deer sized game) but that accuracy speaks for itself.

300 gr. XTP's IN 45 COLT 454 EQUIVALENT LOADS HAVE ALWAYS WORKED WELL FOR ME ON DEER SIZED GAME, AND I EVEN SHOT A HUGE BODIED ELK WITH ONE (HEART SHOT). IN A 1993 SAFARI I WAS SHOOTING A LOT OF IMPALA FOR LEOPARD BAIT I USED THE FA 300 gr. FP AND THE 300 gr. XTP, BOTH AT 454 VELOCITIES, AND THEY KILLED EQUALLY WELL. THE XTP IS NOT NEAR THE BULLET THE A-FRAME IS BUT THE XTP IS ACCURATE, DEADLY AND COSTS LESS THAN THE A-FRAMES, BUT TODAY I WOULD NOT USE IT FOR GAME LARGER THAN DEER.

Rey, If I`am not mistaken, the 45 caliber 300gr. XTP`s you used in the early `90`s were the double crimp groove type as the 300gr. XTP Mag bullet with the single crimp groove was not yet around. Back then I handloaded both the 250 and 300 grain
XTP`s which are now considered for lower velocity 45 Colt loads... I caught hell for running the 250 at 1700+fps in the 454 and tried to explain that the reload info I used for that load came from an early Hornady manual... Think it was #3 or 4
Anyway, I used those bullets to great effect in the field.. Just my $.02.........

JAMES: BACK THEN THEY WERE REGULAR XTP's AND NOT THE STOUTER XTP MAG. I USED 250 XTP's AT OVER 1,700 fps IN 45 COLT CASES IN MY FA 454's ON A 1991 SAFARI, THEY WERE WAY TOO FANGIBLE FOR USE ON LARGER PLAINS GAME. I HAVE USED THE 300 gr. XTP MAG BULLETS, IN 45 COLT AND 454 BRASS, IN MY FA REVOLVERS @ 1,6XX fps AND THEY ARE DEVASTATING ON DEER. THEY ARE ALSO THE BULLET I MOSTLY USE FOR PRACTICE WITH MY 454 REVOLVERS. I HAVE SOME 300 gr. XTP MAG BULLETS WITH THE DUAL CANNELURE.

JAMES: I CHECKED MY STASH OF 300 gr. .452 XTP MAG BULLETS, THE OLDER ONES CAME WITH 2 CANNELURES, ALL THE NEWER ONES HAVE 1 CANNELURE. MESSING WITH THE CANNELURES, REMINDS ME OF MY WIFE, BACK IN THE DAYS WHEN SHE ALWAYS WANTED TO REARRANGE THE FURNITURE.

How do A frames perform on thin skinned deer of average size?

Tracker, There is a post on Shooters Bench about the 265 gr Swift and deer.... Some good recommendations there.....

They work great and open up and dont shed their jackets and weight. They get tougher as they go up in caliber and weight. I routinely shoot end to end with exits in deer and all angles are on the table. Theyre expensive and they arent required for deer sized game but in my book its great to know ya got everything reliably covered and dont have to worry about bone or angle.

Whit, what base is that on your handgun? I don't like the ruger rings on my 45 colt bisley hunter. Looking for a more secure base.

James,

I run the 250's to 1,780 fps out of my 45 Colt Carbine. While that is faster than the Hornady recommended top end velocity of 1600 fps, they are pretty close to the 1600 fps at impact. They are very effective at those speeds on deer, usually leaving golf ball diameter exits. They've always held together well and exited deer. I probably wouldn't want to shoot really large game with them, but for black bear or deer I wouldn't hesitate. Out of the rifle I should shoot the 240 XTP Mag but I have so many of the 250's loaded up already, and they shoot less than 1 MOA.

Eric.

Eric, You got me thinking so I opened my Hornady reload manual ( 4th edition )
and looked up the data I used for my FA 454 using their 250gr XTP.. Their Max loads using AA#9, H-110 and 296 run that bullet at 1800fps from a 7 1/2" 454. I used the load a half grain below MAX for a listed MV of 1750fps with my 7 1/2" m-83
Now, if you can`t trust Hornady`s reload info.... who can you trust???

James, going to order the .357 180 a frames for the 357 mag and the 300gr 45 for the 45 colt bisley hunter. Should make for good whitetail and hog ammo.

That is a Weigand no drill, no tap base that was made specifically for the .454 and .480 Ruger Super Blackhawks with a 6 1/2-inch barrel.

James,

Well since you asked nicely, one of my wife's friends was joking one day about some chiseled guy that walked by that was, in her words, "A big hunk of man meat". I told the friend she shouldn't objectify that poor guy, and that she doesn't know what it's like for us fine specimens of utter manliness to walk down the street with women lusting after us...

We all had a good laugh because I work a field job that requires long pants long sleeves and boots, so I don't get a ton of sun on my legs, and have a farmers tan, and I used to be a tall slender guy, so not only am I not particularly chiseled, I'm fairly pale when not wearing a shirt or in a pair of shorts. So when my wife's friend finished laughing she said well if he is Mr. ManMeat you must be Mr.McPorkchop, being pale white like a porkchop but like a cheap low quality knockoff McDonald's version that only resembles it in name.

Since then the name sort of stuck and my wife calls me that all the time, in a good natured way. I think.


Eric.

Eric, I would have expected nothing less...... Thanks for taking the time...

In my humble .44 magnum experience, the A-frame is clearly more accurate than the XTP in similar weights and velocities, but much more expensive and the theoretical terminal ballistics (i.e. in wet newsprint) are definitively comparable. I've never used an A-frame on game but have used XTPs many times - on deer-sized game, that is - and they have never failed me. Would not use an XTP on elk or moose though, as they have bones and joints that can be very tough.

Was re-reading this thread this morning while having my coffee and have talked myself into ordering some of the A-Frames for my 357 Mag.

If you're going to use an XTP, and not an A-Frame or Barnes, once you get to game as big and big-boned as elk and moose, I'd strongly recommend using the XTP-MAG. They have a much thicker jacket than the standard XTP and are rated for much higher velocities.


Eric.

I have seen the XTP Mags fail pretty miserably over the last couple of years. I would go with the A-frame personally.

In 2013 I posted a group I shot with the 325gr. a-frame out of my FA in 454 that was 11/16" @ 100 yards. Yep I'd say they're accurate.

I would say you're accurate as well!

Shucks, thanks Whit

That aint all the gun and bullet. Lotta shooter in that as well.

I have several XTPs (.454 ) recovered from medium size WV whitetails on quartering shots, poorly expanded.
My thoughts are if I can recover them from our small whitetails, then I'm not shooting anything bigger with one.
Another useful bullet is the Speer 260 gr. Mag HP. Oddly, they do super on deer with decent exits and damage and always complete penetration, but they are death on turkeys- broadside shots, 1" damage, instant drops, 35+ birds taken with zero losses.
Still, A Frames are the best. Not good on turkeys. Took one by mistake with them. Low hit. Completely gutted the bird. Only had to dissect the breast.

Your observations mirror mine on the xtps. About 15 to 20 years ago they seemed better but coulda been luck. Those are bold words though. The hornady religion is strong.