Load Testing

This summer I plan to do some load testing for Bullet expansion vs. Velocity. I am trying to muster up some telephone books (wet them). At what distance do you all normally place them at? 25 yds or 50 yds?

OTHER THAN SOME UP CLOSE PENETRATION TESTING AT A LINEBAUGH SHOOT, I HAVE NOT DONE SUCH TESTING, BUT, IF I WERE TOO I WOULD DO SOME UP CLOSE (A FEW FEET AWAY) AND THEN MAYBE SOME AT A LONGER DISTANCE, e.g. 50 - 100 YARDS. IN A RECENT POST JDK HAD A REFERENCE TO A bullet testing LINK THAT YOU MIGHT FIND INTERESTING.

Wet paper is not a very reliable way to test expansion and phone books are too dense. You're better off using newspaper and make sure they are soaked through and through.

Revolver & semi-auto cartridges I usually test at 50 yards because that is the approximate distance I would feel comfortable shooting a revolver or semi-auto at a game animal. Rifle type cartridges I will usually test at 100 yards. These would include the straight wall type cartridges like a 444 Marlin.

I do my bullet testing on the 2000+ whitetails I've taken. I shoot them end to end, then broadside. If the bullet looks good on the end to end, then I see what it does on broadside.
If the broadside doesn't exit a whitetail, then I use it mainly on groundhogs (like XTPs- I have many recovered on our small whitetails).
If the broadside penetrates, then I go to 300+ yd. shots. If that stays in a deer I won't use it on large animals, but is OK on deer size animals in US or Africa.
By this criteria, I've settled on the regular (not LR) Nosler AB for most animals.The only ones I've recovered were from AK and Shiras moose.
In revolvers the best bullets (performance wise) have been Xs , Swifts and hard leads.
Really big stuff (elephant, hippo, rhino, buff) doesn't apply to the above, but I use the intended bullet on groundhogs and deer for accuracy testing.
This "method of madness" has never let me down in all my hunts.

DOC KNOWS!

this is as good as it gets.... no "pussy footing" around....

There's one thing that is a guarantee and that is if Doc says that a bullet and gun combo works.....it does! He's not in it to sell bullets for his backers/sponsors or guns or scopes to push false agendas. He simply tells it like it is. I know this from years and years of his bullet testing. Any time I use the bullets that Doc uses, I get similar results. That is far different from certain philosophies that preached falsehoods about guns and bullets just to sell them...they were easy to disprove by actually doing my own testing. Doc is a man of Vast handgun hunting experience and integrity, if he says it, you can be certain, it's the truth

So who?s selling what on here? I think alot of bullet myths have been dispelled and only remain for ideologues. Barnes swift and monometals are tops and i dont need monometals till its bigger than cape buff. I think what works has been pretty well sorted out. I test on 1500lb+ animals and deer. If it makes a large would channel on a deer and holds together thru a waterbuff or like animals shoulder and penetrates to the offside hide its a great bullet. Very few make the grade.

I know that Doc would never try to say/sell a Dan Wesson semi auto 10mm was a 1 shot Cape Buffalo gun. Seems like Razor is trying to sell a lot of something. Hopefully no one on here has never done that, but never said HERE either...just know that BS like that is rampant...always has been

Aaah gotcha. Yeah i think razor made a big mistake not being upfront about how many shots cuz the episode gave the impression it was one shot, not sure if dobbs claimed it, bit like we have talked about, there are many bullets holes on that cape buff to be seen. Ive been away from paying much attention here for this flu season amd was wondering if i missed something. I know gary and max have both published articles on certain bullet loads and have refused to change articles to say things worked well that didnt even if it meant not publishing it. That integrity is rare in the industry. I was at a friends ranch and one of the industries best known writers were there wringing out a new rifle and new cartridge about 10 years back. He couldnt get the rifle to feed and the group sizes at a hundred were bigger than a paper plate. He cussed that combo all over that ranch. Then his article came out and quite the opposite. My friend asked him wtf? The reply was that honesty doesnt pay the bills. Never read anything by that guy or read his books again!

Cape buffalo with one shot from a 10mm shooting a 200 grain bullet does go to the farthest reaches of believability.....but a good way to sell DW semi autos to the public.... Elgin Gates carried the wrong handgun....

Not to re-litigate this hunt, but I can't see anywhere that he claimed one-shot kills on either of the two Cape buffalo he took with his 10mm.

I wanted to look at Razor`s buff/10mm video but can`t find it on his you tube page... Link??

If I remember correctly the title of his video was "One Shot Buffalo"... However I cannot prove that because I can`t locate his 10mm/Cape buff video.....

Thinking back to what I saw and remembering all the Razor videos I`ve watched and the amount of impact shots that were shown and yet when one of the greatest handgun hunting kills of modern times
(Cape buff with 10mm) the camera was off except for the one shot...
...I think you guys know where I`am going with this..PS heard rumor that Razor`s PH said multiple clips of 10mm were needed to down the Cape Buff...Also, on Double Taps web site it states that
three (3) Cape buff were taken with this load buy one individual..
What is the story???

I too can remember watching the YouTube video of his Cape Buffalo with his 10mm. Now, I can't find it...I can find one with his 9.3mm rifle and his bow, but unfortunately not his 10mm. Luckily, The Outdoor channel broadcast that hunt. It shows the stalk, it shows 1 shot, it shows him run off, then it shows the recovery. Razor makes sure to roll the Buff over to show the surgical precision in which he placed the heart shot.....and even though this buff had been cleaned up rather dramatically you could still see the multitude of bullet holes in the Buff...keep in mind that there was NO blood coming from the mouth or nose of the Buff and none either from any of the multiple bullet holes....if it sounds too good to be true, if it looks to good to be true, it's probably a little too good to be true......on Razors own page he states that he only shot it twice 6" apart through the heart......gotta love video editing.....unfortunately, a lot of consumers took his "marketing propaganda" for honesty......a 200 gr 40 caliber bullet is short in length and light in weight, not exactly dangerous game material, but, that's just how I feel about it. That bullet combo is much better suited for deer and boar.

I use to work for a nationally syndicated hunting show and it pretty much turned me off of most shows. If you were to ever see a show go from raw footage to final product, you?d never believe anything you ever saw on a hunting show again. Countless stories I could tell. And unfortunately some of them involve me and hunts I was filmed on, including that huge pencil horned 8 in my album. That was killed with a handgun, but it aired as something completely different....

can only imagine what you witnessed....Talking with a former fenced ranch owner I was told how some of the old gun writers would pose for different pictures with different guns but the same animal....

I have countless hunts filmed and wanna put videos together. Not professionally done but no bullshit, bad shots and all.

The beauty of editing , sometimes its not pretty when in the hunting world!

MY FIRST PH WAS AN AFRIKANER ON MY FIRST SAFARI IN 1988. THE OUTFITTER TOLD THE STORY ON HIM THAT ON A HUNT THERE WAS VIDEOGRAPHER ALONG TO FILM THE SAFARI. THE VIDEO GUY WAS HIPPIE LOOKING, WITH LONG HAIR. THE PH AND VIDEO GUY GOT TO SHARE A ROOM. THE VIDEO GUY TOOK OUT A SMALL BOTTLE OF CLEAR JELLY/GREASE (APPRARENTLY SOETHING USED ON LENSES) AND PUT IT ON THE NIGHT STAND BETWEEN THEM. THE PH, NOT TRUSTING THE HIPPIE, AND THINKING THE WORST, THOUGHT IT WAS FOR SEXUAL ACTIVITY, DIDN'T SLEEP ALL NIGHT AND KEPT A GUN HANDY.

Rey, that's about the funniest thing that I've ever read!!! HILARIOUS

And what type of film were they making exactly? :-)

I've seen members here shoot animals a heck of a few times with bigger cartridges to kill them.

Why are we bitching that some long haired goober shot a buff several times with his 10mm?

Just curious.

Simply put, it's because actions like his give handgun hunting a bad name and reputation. So many people take actions like his for face value. Unfortunately, a lot of people now think a 10mm is a much more capable gun...handgun hunting has already been outlawed in other countries

due to politics I'm sure, but also due to foolish people shooting animals with gun and caliber combos that are absolutely insufficient. Razor only did that crap for money..I care to much about the sport of handgun hunting I guess

100 percent of what he did was a media stunt. To sell DW Semi Auto 10mm's loaded with Double Tap ammo as Dangerous Game worthy. Everyone who has been in this game long enough knows that it was a complete joke

Oh, I know it was a stunt and think him a circus performer. Just because of his mannerisms and antics.

But, cartridge choice is a personal choice to most of us (when you?re not getting paid like him ).

If I ever decide to take on an elephant with a .38 Spl, I expect you to tell me it?s likely I?ll advised...............but then offer to hold my beer and watch.

Other than that, ain?t none of anyone?s damned business what I choose to use.

No?

We live in a free country thank God, but rest assured that if you went after a Elephant with a 38 Special I'd would be laughing like crazy when it smashed you like a gnat and the locals ate your guts like dessert...LOL, but very few folks are that ignorant...LOL

Youre right and i think theres way way too much stock put in for a one shot kill. I pretty much dont have to shoot twice. I do on the big stuff bc im usually testing a bullet and im not sure whats gonna happen and the second is that its not good to let the animal languish any longer than necessary. I dont like something being billed as something its not but if it works and does a good job then i guess it works. I do like a larger sample size than two though. Btw whit, good point i went back and watched both episodes and it was never billed as one shot kill. Watching again im not sure why i got that impression. My bad.


Zee, not sure id use a 38 but ill buy the popcorn if u buy the elephant!

I`am afraid caliber choice in Africa is other peoples business when hunting the Big Five because the hunting countries in Africa have agreed on .375 as minimum (read Keith`s book "Safari)..

Make for a great YouTube, eh?

Ha!

I suspect you know what I meant.

😂😂😂 that it would!

I think its fun to experiment and i also think that itd be interesting if the african countries were to revisit the caliber minimums with some more modern bullets in the mix.

Yup, and the minimums are largely based on minimum muzzle energy levels that our handguns don?t achieve anyhow. It?s all about the bullet.

Yep. Based on the .375 H&H with its historic loads of 270 gr. @ 2650 FPS and 300 gr. @ 2500 FPS, it's hard for handguns to match.

The large caliber laws of Africa were made for humane kills on African big game and not for the safety of hunters making a poor caliber choice... The PH does all the worrying...forgot to add LOL...

Sorry Zee...must have missed it....

They were also created at a time when the best bullets we?re cup and core and generally of a poor quality. True premium bullets like the Barnes TSX has made calibers that in the past were considered inadequate into viable alternatives. Yet the laws of most of those countries related to minimum calibers remain unchanged.

So very true Whit....

Whit, Do you have an idea of what bullet type you will use on your upcoming safari???
Looked at your video and see your using the Punch... sorry bout that....

Everything under the sun but lod testing. This thread has been officially hijacked!

Completely off the rails...... :-)

Hey I wasn?t the one to drag Razor Dobbs into the discussion! LOL!

BSCOTT: YOU NEVER KNOW WHERE A TOPIC WILL GO, IT IS A BS SESSION AMONG PISTOLEROS, BUT THEY ARE RARELY BORING.

You?ve got that right!

Understood bscott 😜 Moral of my original statement was that Doc is the original "bullet tester" and has no monetary reason for giving his opinion, unlike some of the sh*t you'll see or read. He only bases his opinion on using bullets on game animals and definitely not from shooting phone books 😂😂😂 or paper 😉. His opinions today are what they were last year and any time before. If it honestly worked then, it'll work now, and it always will....basically, the worst test media is dense paper....test on game animals yourself.... and send Doc a PM. He will steer you in the right direction

as long as it stays civil its ok....

Probably doesn't hurt that Doc, being a doctor, is essentially a scientist.

As is tradmark.

We developed the Bovine Bash specifically to test bullets on what amounts to the toughest of animal flesh (obviously excluding elephant, rhino and hippo). I can think of no more credible test medium. It ain?t cheap, but the data collected is invaluable.

Thats why all we test on big animals. Ala the bovine bash was created. Then side that lived paper goes nuts.

I also wouldnt mind simtest or any consistent media. Paper isnt nor has it ever been.

Hey bcott... what type and brand of bullets do you want to test??
The reason I ask is they may have already been tested by one of the members and their results could save you time and money...

I didn't realize we had two doctors among us. Can we set up a forum for nagging medical questions we're to cheap to see a doctor about?!

Seriously though,because of the special nature of our hobby, we have special issues. We use the same bullets over extreme velocity spreads, which brings the discussion back to BScott's question. When I first got my .357 Max. Barrel, I ordered 140 gr. XTP's for speed, and added a box of 180's since it didn't add much cost. As I researched loads, I discovered the 180 had more speed at 100 yards anyway. I never used the 140's, but I'm curious if they would have even held up to the speed anyway. It seems like XTP's were the current edge then for handgun hunting.

180 aframe for any 357 running hard will stand up to anything u throw at em!

Hornady XPT 158 FNP and 140 xpt fnp

For your consideration, last year's Bovine Bash.....

http://www.handgunhunt.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/ubb/showflat/Number/183501/page/9#Post183501

Whit, that was very informative, especially the info about HC lead bullets. Looks like a blast. Thanks for the link!

Thank you. Here is the link to the second annual event of 2016:

http://www.handgunhunt.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/ubb/showflat/Number/174359/page/20/fpart/1

The only XTP I hunted with was their 180gr. and that was shot at pretty HV from a Freedom Arms model 83... I bought the 158gr. FP on recommendation from a mid-west handgun hunter who used them with much success and whose weapon of choice was also the m-83 and I know he loaded them at 1700+fps, but I never got the chance to use them. There is a post on Shooters Bench about this bullet`s use on game you might read..
Sorry I could not be of more help, however, I`am sure some of the members have used these bullet weight`s in their 357 revolvers...What gun are you using??

Model 83 Freedom Arms Revolver.357

Mark, Yes it would be interesting and they'd probably find some good reasons to allow smaller calibers USING THE CORRECT BULLET.

Now having said that, I do not think that it would be a good idea to change the existing laws regarding minimum caliber.

BECAUSE there will always be the ignorant or un-educated "hunter" that is recoil conscious or too cheap to buy a bigger rifle that will happily grab his smaller caliber rifle and go after the dangerous five if it were legal. And have no idea about what bullet to use.

Sound familiar?

That cuts both ways, Gregg. There are guys that over-power their capabilities who can't shoot the rifles they bring because they are scared of them. Also, the incorrect bullet in a big caliber isn't good either. Recall the failures that were synonymous with Weatherbys because the lousy cup and core bullets were matched with much higher velocities than other "safari grade" calibers. Unfortunately, the bullet is never the factor even though in my humble opinion it is the most important factor bar none. Being able to shoot is up to the individual.

Good thing that even the most basic rube can shoot a 375hh with a touch of motivation.