Handgunhunt

cape buff vs XTP

Posted By: jamesfromjersey

cape buff vs XTP - 03/12/2018 7:16 PM



Franchise brought to my attention a post on Facebooks "Handgun Hunting and Speciality Pistols" with two photos showing a Mr. Jay Hunt and the two Cape buff he shot with what looks like a Freedom Arms in 454 Casull using a handload with a 300 grain XTP Mag bullet
over 30.0grs H-110 for a 1609fps MV...
Posted By: Franchise

Re: cape buff vs XTP - 03/12/2018 7:26 PM

Two big, beautiful Cape Buffalo!
Posted By: tradmark

Re: cape buff vs XTP - 03/12/2018 7:27 PM

No doubt they can work, no doubt i can post videos of failures on animals as small as corsican rams and follow with good results as well. Its all about how consistent the product is. 100%, 80%, or 50/50? Thats the only knock on em. I believe doc rogers had a statement that if he recovers a bullet on whitetail he wont use em on bigger animals or something to that effect. Obviously worked on those buffs. Itd be interesting to see the bullets pulled out of the animal
Posted By: jamesfromjersey

Re: cape buff vs XTP - 03/12/2018 7:35 PM

trade, just sent an invitation Jay Hunt to join this site so we can hear what he has to say... Otherwise, congratulations on two fine Cape buff Jay Hunt....
Posted By: Franchise

Re: cape buff vs XTP - 03/12/2018 7:41 PM

I just thought this gentleman killed two fine trophies 😉😜 I was impressed by their size 💪🏼👍
Posted By: jamesfromjersey

Re: cape buff vs XTP - 03/12/2018 7:44 PM

hey Trademark, At least he did not use a 10mm
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\:D
Posted By: MrMcPorkchop

Re: cape buff vs XTP - 03/12/2018 7:51 PM

 Originally Posted By: jamesfromjersey
hey Trademark, At least he did not use a 10mm




You beat me to it!
Posted By: tradmark

Re: cape buff vs XTP - 03/12/2018 7:52 PM

I would love to hear what he has to say and i thought congrats are implied but if not ill say it now, congrats! My response was more geared towards the title of the thread but i digress. Im busily going bw rooms. Nice looking buff anyhow he should be extra glad he got some buff before south africa is destroyed and we wont have easy access to handgunning cape buff.
Posted By: tradmark

Re: cape buff vs XTP - 03/12/2018 8:02 PM

HahHahhahaha james. Very true. Props to anyone that can stand in and shoot those big animals. Deer hunting has never been the same
Posted By: 45MAN

Re: cape buff vs XTP - 03/12/2018 8:11 PM

VERY NICE CAPE's, BUT, IMHO, VERY POOR CHOICE OF BULLET, WOULD LIKE MORE INFO ON THE HUNTS, WHAT IT TOOK TO GET THEM DOWN, etc. BTW, NOT TOO MANY PLACES THAT YOU GET 2 CAPE's ON LICENSE, WHERE WERE THEY TAKEN?
Posted By: jamesfromjersey

Re: cape buff vs XTP - 03/12/2018 8:16 PM


This one should make Razor happy cause he used a Dan Wesson 357....
;\)
Posted By: jamesfromjersey

Re: cape buff vs XTP - 03/12/2018 8:17 PM

Rey, I`am pretty sure Mozambique....
Posted By: Gary

Re: cape buff vs XTP - 03/12/2018 8:23 PM

One thing to keep in mind when hunting dangerous game is the opportunity to put in multiple shots. It's not too bad in open country but get in the thick stuff where you can't see but 40 or 50 yards and it turns into a whole different ball game.
Posted By: Whitworth

Re: cape buff vs XTP - 03/12/2018 10:57 PM

 Originally Posted By: jamesfromjersey
hey Trademark, At least he did not use a 10mm
;\)
;\)
;\)
\:D


Kinda like these two big, beautiful Cape buffalo?
LOL!!



Posted By: racksmasher1

Re: cape buff vs XTP - 03/13/2018 1:03 AM

Awesome trophy?s all around, I?m sure Razor dropped a few mags.
Posted By: jamesfromjersey

Re: cape buff vs XTP - 03/13/2018 1:52 AM

Old Razor Dobbs just keeps popping up...sorta like the battery rabbit....
;\)
.... After reading past posts I`am sure that his 10mm buff kills have been talked about by dedicated handgun hunters the world over.... his PR man must have been paid a bonus for this one. I wonder how many 10`s CZ has sold since the video first hit the air....
Posted By: Whitworth

Re: cape buff vs XTP - 03/13/2018 1:55 AM

 Originally Posted By: jamesfromjersey
Old Razor Dobbs just keeps popping up...sorta like the battery rabbit....
;\)
.... After reading past posts I`am sure that his 10mm buff kills have been talked about by dedicated handgun hunters the world over.... his PR man must have been paid a bonus for this one. I wonder how many 10`s CZ has sold since the video first hit the air....


Dan Wesson is a sponsor. Kinda the whole point of him using one. Wasn?t it you who dragged him and his trusty 10 into this discussion? LOL!
Posted By: jamesfromjersey

Re: cape buff vs XTP - 03/13/2018 1:58 AM

no pictures though....
lol....lol lol
ps- that`s why I said his PR man was paid a bonus
Posted By: Whitworth

Re: cape buff vs XTP - 03/13/2018 2:02 AM

What do you mean? I posted two of his photos above.
Posted By: jamesfromjersey

Re: cape buff vs XTP - 03/13/2018 2:11 AM

Whit, It seems no matter how hard we try we just can`t get rid of Razor....

PS and I like the guy
;\)
Posted By: ruger4570

Re: cape buff vs XTP - 03/13/2018 1:03 PM

Nice Buffalo. I hope he joins. Would like to hear details of his hunts.
Posted By: Gregg Richter

Re: cape buff vs XTP - 03/13/2018 3:43 PM

 Originally Posted By: jamesfromjersey
trade, just sent an invitation Jay Hunt to join this site so we can hear what he has to say....


Good idea, James. Chances are if he was a member he would not have used XTP's.


At any rate, congratulations on some great handgun trophies. Murphy must have been looking the other way.


Or else somebody told him the odds.
;\)
Posted By: wvhitman

Re: cape buff vs XTP - 03/13/2018 3:54 PM

Nice buffs. I'm very surprised he did it. I must be one of very few that's had terrible luck with XTPs. They just have never worked for me and it's not I don't know how to shoot.
The one exception is 200 gr. XTP in .45ACP. They out performed every other bullet I tried in it. Go figure.
Posted By: jwp475

Re: cape buff vs XTP - 03/13/2018 5:42 PM

 Originally Posted By: wvhitman
Nice buffs. I'm very surprised he did it. I must be one of very few that's had terrible luck with XTPs. They just have never worked for me and it's not I don't know how to shoot.
The one exception is 200 gr. XTP in .45ACP. They out performed every other bullet I tried in it. Go figure.


I?ve had good luck with the 185 and 230 XTP?s in 45 ACP+P and 45 Super.
Posted By: jamesfromjersey

Re: cape buff vs XTP - 03/13/2018 6:18 PM

 Originally Posted By: ruger4570
Nice Buffalo. I hope he joins. Would like to hear details of his hunts.


me too........
Posted By: Coloradoyaler

Re: cape buff vs XTP - 03/13/2018 8:53 PM

They are nice buffs!

What I am interested to hear is how many shots the PH made if any.

Regards
Mark
Posted By: sixshot

Re: cape buff vs XTP - 03/14/2018 12:17 AM

Those are great trophies with any gun & to do it with Hornady XTP's is almost beyond belief! Good for him even if it took a whole cylinder full. I know most people would have used something else but he made it happen, congratulations!
I think many guys plug different products in hopes of getting a sponsor, nothing new about that game.
Also, it sounds like South Africa is starting to get pretty nasty, would like to go again but don't want to be in a position to have to shoot my way out of there! Thoughts?

Dick
Posted By: tradmark

Re: cape buff vs XTP - 03/14/2018 5:30 AM

I am contemplating on my odds of having to shoot my way out this summer. Havent fully decided yet. Doc, you arent the only one that has had bad results. I was talking to my eldest son about this and his response was that some guys have had unprotected sex with locals in liberia and dont get aids but it doesnt mean you should try it.

That said, dick, which bullets do you think people are trying to get a sponsor with? Im just wanting to get what you are saying, do u think people use some substandard bullets to get a sponsor or are you talking more about the premium bullets.
Posted By: sixshot

Re: cape buff vs XTP - 03/14/2018 7:09 AM

Wasn't referring to just bullets, guys do it with scopes, guns, clothes, etc. In this case as far as bullets, yes he made it work but almost all of us would agree there are much better choices out there for Cape Buffalo. Me, being stubborn would use a cast bullet & most others would use a premium copper/solid bullet but the guy did make it work twice.
I hope the guy jumps in and tells us the whole story, it has to be quite fascinating. He looks quite happy & they look quite dead.

Dick
Posted By: dhom

Re: cape buff vs XTP - 03/14/2018 9:36 AM

Correct me if I am wrong but, didn't Lynn Thompson of Cold Steel use the 300 GR XTP's for just about everything?
Posted By: 500WE

Re: cape buff vs XTP - 03/14/2018 11:55 AM

I believe you're right, Dhom. Regarding XTP's, my experience has been different than what some have suggested here. I have used the .475 400 gr. XTP on a South American water buffalo much heavier than any cape buffalo I've shot, with complete success. I 've used that same one on bison, bull elk, a couple of large bears and several wild boar.
Ive used the 350 gr. XTP from a .500 WE on a couple more bison and boars, once again with no problems.
Regarding the .454 XTP's, there's a big difference between the original version and the thicker jacket Magnum version. That Magnum bullet is much better for anything of significant size, in my opinion, although I personally wouldn't use any .454 on buff, if I had a .475 or .50.
Having said this, I don't take Texas heart shots, and habitually take heart/ lung shots on game, not shoulder shots-- where a hardcast bullet should prove superior on penetration.
Posted By: Whitworth

Re: cape buff vs XTP - 03/14/2018 1:41 PM

 Originally Posted By: dhom
Correct me if I am wrong but, didn't Lynn Thompson of Cold Steel use the 300 GR XTP's for just about everything?


Lynn used the 300 grain Hornady factory loads in .44 Mag in Australia. Keep in mind these are really mild loads that only clock around 1,100 fps. They have a tendency not to open and act more like a solid (and not a very good solid at that). I talked to Lynn's outfitter after this hunt and he was uncomfortable with Lynn's choice, but told me they worked because they so often don't open. Combine that with Lynn's impeccable shot placement and you have a recipe for success. It is important to note that Lynn used CorBon Penetrators and FA 300 grain bullets in .454 in Africa.
Posted By: sixshot

Re: cape buff vs XTP - 03/14/2018 4:53 PM

I also noticed on many of Lynn's Buffalo that the shots were complete pass through's so what does that tell us about needing more velocity than 1,100 fps on really big animals? Just a question, not an argument.

Dick
Posted By: tradmark

Re: cape buff vs XTP - 03/14/2018 6:34 PM

No, good question dick. Two caveats, i was actually looking to book a hunt with his outfitter right before he died in australia and asked just that and he told me that the bullets werent in danger of passing thru when hitting bone on the way in and out. Some were not very fast kills and they were cull biffs. Matt had told me that he was getting a 454 with some appropriate bullets since i would have been shooting one or two large trophy buffs. I didnt have the time to cull a bunch in the same way lynn did. That said, no 300 gr 44 mag bullet at 1100 fpshas ever been in danger of exiting on any of the animals at the bovine bash.
Posted By: tradmark

Re: cape buff vs XTP - 03/14/2018 6:37 PM

Another problem is that there is a big misnomer that the bullets from handguns just punch a caliber sized hole. The faster they go the larger the wound channel. Often times significantly larger and a quicker death.
Posted By: s4s4u

Re: cape buff vs XTP - 03/14/2018 6:59 PM

 Quote:
The faster they go the larger the wound channel.


This a a good point, and one that a lot of cast shooters don't fathom. I see many posts indicating that 900 fps will push a 250 grain Keith slug clean through a deer. That may well be, but the same bullet travelling at 1,200 fps will do a lot more damage along the way.
Posted By: Whitworth

Re: cape buff vs XTP - 03/14/2018 7:08 PM

 Originally Posted By: s4s4u
 Quote:
The faster they go the larger the wound channel.


This a a good point, and one that a lot of cast shooters don't fathom. I see many posts indicating that 900 fps will push a 250 grain Keith slug clean through a deer. That may well be, but the same bullet travelling at 1,200 fps will do a lot more damage along the way.


It will. You have to hold the speeds down for cast bullets because the material can't hold up to very high impact velocities.
Posted By: jamesfromjersey

Re: cape buff vs XTP - 03/14/2018 9:52 PM

 Originally Posted By: 500WE
Regarding XTP's, my experience has been different than what some have suggested here. I have used the .475 400 gr. XTP on a South American water buffalo much heavier than any cape buffalo I've shot, with complete success. I 've used that same one on bison, bull elk, a couple of large bears and several wild boar.
Ive used the 350 gr. XTP from a .500 WE on a couple more bison and boars, once again with no problems.
Regarding the .454 XTP's, there's a big difference between the original version and the thicker jacket Magnum version. That Magnum bullet is much better for anything of significant size, in my opinion, although I personally wouldn't use any .454 on buff, if I had a .475 or .50.
Having said this, I don't take Texas heart shots, and habitually take heart/ lung shots on game, not shoulder shots-- where a hardcast bullet should prove superior on penetration.

Ken, Your much better then I when writing one`s thoughts...
Posted By: sixshot

Re: cape buff vs XTP - 03/14/2018 10:56 PM

This is a good discussion & I hope more join in. There are so many variables when shooting real live game that it's hard to put a definite answer up on exactly what's going to happen once the bullet makes contact with the animal. The construction of the bullet, the velocity, the distance, the angle & of course the size of the animal & where it's hit.
None of these things things can be totally controlled in the field although we always try. Many times these discussions go straight to the top, the very biggest animals & when that happens you narrow bullet selection down to only 3-4 premium bullets, period. Of course others will work, just like a 9mm will kill a Grizzly in Alaska or a 22 LR will kill a Black Bear.
If we drop down to the main stream of big game hunting with a six gun in North America then we allow a lot of different bullets to come into play & that's where most of us hang out.
Probably 75% of the game taken by lower 48 six gunners is deer, either muleys or white tails. The other 25% would be hogs,
exotics, pronghorn, bears, elk, lions & moose. Maybe I've missed something but that pretty much covers most of it.
For these animals "most" bullets of 250 grs or above will handle anything mentioned with proper bullet placement.
I've taken all of the animals above & in 50 years I've recovered exactly ONE bullet. Speaking of my own experience I'll say if there's one place where guys can go wrong it's with velocity. That is they tend to over drive a bullet beyond it's design limits & the bullet lets go.
This is just my experience, some one else may see it different, no problem. A six gun doesn't need top end velocity to kill big game at 40-50-60 yds with good shot placement. For me that's mostly been heart/lungs but sometimes shoulders because here in the west you seldom get a flat broadside shot. It's usually uphill or downhill or at an angle, not much flat ground in the western US.
Bullet seperations, bent bullets, over expansion, bullet blow up, I've never had it, not even once & never seen it once from my hand gun friends, even on bears, elk & moose.
My only recovered bullet was this last fall on a smallish buck at 64 yds with a soft cast HP bullet, something that I seldom use. It was a 240 gr 44 & only 10 grs of Unique. I know that this bullet would have blown up if I have leaned on it hard at 44 magnum velocity but because it was much slower in my 6 1/2 Ruger OM flat top it did something totally unexpected, it stayed together for several inches. He was facing me almost straight on & I hit the big shoulder joint right on the point, this would have blown up a hot 44 HP without question. It went through the pulverized joint, one lung, the intestines & was laying up against the left hip bone & if I remember correctly weighed 85 grs. He covered maybe 15 yds, I was totally shocked the bullet penetrated that far because of the HP & the shoulder joint. The key was, I didn't over drive it. But we never know, that shot could have been 125 yds that day, I still would have taken it but a hotter load would have made more sense, or picking up the 10 1/2" 44 laying at my feet with a 4X Leupold & 21 grs of 2400 & a Keith bullet, nice to have options.

Dick
Posted By: Zee

Re: cape buff vs XTP - 03/14/2018 11:23 PM

I like speed. I like stomping the peddle to the floor. I like hitting the wall.
Posted By: tradmark

Re: cape buff vs XTP - 03/15/2018 3:45 AM

 Originally Posted By: sixshot
This is a good discussion & I hope more join in. There are so many variables when shooting real live game that it's hard to put a definite answer up on exactly what's going to happen once the bullet makes contact with the animal. The construction of the bullet, the velocity, the distance, the angle & of course the size of the animal & where it's hit.
None of these things things can be totally controlled in the field although we always try. Many times these discussions go straight to the top, the very biggest animals & when that happens you narrow bullet selection down to only 3-4 premium bullets, period. Of course others will work, just like a 9mm will kill a Grizzly in Alaska or a 22 LR will kill a Black Bear.
If we drop down to the main stream of big game hunting with a six gun in North America then we allow a lot of different bullets to come into play & that's where most of us hang out.
Probably 75% of the game taken by lower 48 six gunners is deer, either muleys or white tails. The other 25% would be hogs,
exotics, pronghorn, bears, elk, lions & moose. Maybe I've missed something but that pretty much covers most of it.
For these animals "most" bullets of 250 grs or above will handle anything mentioned with proper bullet placement.
I've taken all of the animals above & in 50 years I've recovered exactly ONE bullet. Speaking of my own experience I'll say if there's one place where guys can go wrong it's with velocity. That is they tend to over drive a bullet beyond it's design limits & the bullet lets go.
This is just my experience, some one else may see it different, no problem. A six gun doesn't need top end velocity to kill big game at 40-50-60 yds with good shot placement. For me that's mostly been heart/lungs but sometimes shoulders because here in the west you seldom get a flat broadside shot. It's usually uphill or downhill or at an angle, not much flat ground in the western US.
Bullet seperations, bent bullets, over expansion, bullet blow up, I've never had it, not even once & never seen it once from my hand gun friends, even on bears, elk & moose.
My only recovered bullet was this last fall on a smallish buck at 64 yds with a soft cast HP bullet, something that I seldom use. It was a 240 gr 44 & only 10 grs of Unique. I know that this bullet would have blown up if I have leaned on it hard at 44 magnum velocity but because it was much slower in my 6 1/2 Ruger OM flat top it did something totally unexpected, it stayed together for several inches. He was facing me almost straight on & I hit the big shoulder joint right on the point, this would have blown up a hot 44 HP without question. It went through the pulverized joint, one lung, the intestines & was laying up against the left hip bone & if I remember correctly weighed 85 grs. He covered maybe 15 yds, I was totally shocked the bullet penetrated that far because of the HP & the shoulder joint. The key was, I didn't over drive it. But we never know, that shot could have been 125 yds that day, I still would have taken it but a hotter load would have made more sense, or picking up the 10 1/2" 44 laying at my feet with a 4X Leupold & 21 grs of 2400 & a Keith bullet, nice to have options.

Dick


Yessir. Youre a smart man to run in the bullets range and not just load hot. Good results!
Posted By: sixshot

Re: cape buff vs XTP - 03/15/2018 5:32 AM

Actually I think it's an advantage to load hot if the shooter & the bullet are on the same page. It's when the load is too much for the shooter (recoil) or the load is too hot for the bullet that things get out of whack.
Faster, flatter & hitting harder makes sense if the shooter is up to the task & builds correct loads, I've never stated other wise. I do question some one building loads they can't handle or using the wrong bullet at high speed, that's just asking for trouble.
Good loads & good shooting kills a lot of game with a six gun.

Dick
Posted By: tradmark

Re: cape buff vs XTP - 03/15/2018 6:46 AM

👍
Posted By: Whitworth

Re: cape buff vs XTP - 03/15/2018 10:44 AM

 Originally Posted By: sixshot
Actually I think it's an advantage to load hot if the shooter & the bullet are on the same page. It's when the load is too much for the shooter (recoil) or the load is too hot for the bullet that things get out of whack.
Faster, flatter & hitting harder makes sense if the shooter is up to the task & builds correct loads, I've never stated other wise. I do question some one building loads they can't handle or using the wrong bullet at high speed, that's just asking for trouble.
Good loads & good shooting kills a lot of game with a six gun.

Dick


Well said, Dick. I think you hit the nail on the head.
Posted By: 45MAN

Re: cape buff vs XTP - 03/15/2018 11:11 AM

DICK (SIXSHOT) MAX (WHITWORTH): THAT'S IT, THE RIGHT BULLET AT THE RIGHT VELOCITY.
Posted By: jamesfromjersey

Re: cape buff vs XTP - 03/15/2018 4:55 PM

its so nice when everything comes together.....
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Posted By: SacredCrows

Re: cape buff vs XTP - 03/17/2018 1:56 PM

Great animal. And a awesome successful hunt.

There you go guys. That?s how you respond to something like this.

Not with the...in a nutshell.

What an idiot for using xtp....

Or how many times did the ph have to shoot it after you used a sub par bullet....

The horse named opinion is way too high in here.
Posted By: 45MAN

Re: cape buff vs XTP - 03/17/2018 8:08 PM

 Originally Posted By: SacredCrows
Great animal. And a awesome successful hunt.

There you go guys. That?s how you respond to something like this.

Not with the...in a nutshell.

What an idiot for using xtp....

Or how many times did the ph have to shoot it after you used a sub par bullet....

The horse named opinion is way too high in here.


THE POST OF THE 2 BUFFS WAS NOT DONE BY THE HUNTER BUT BY JAMES FROM JERSEY, AND WAS ENTITILED TO PROVOKE SOME COMMENTS RE THE HUNTER'S CHOICE OF BULLETS. I WENT BACK AND READ ALL OF THE POSTS AND ALL OF THE ONES INVOLVING MR. HUNT WERE APPROPRIATE. HE RECEIVED MANY CONGRAGULATIONS, BUT AT THE SAME TIME THE TOPIC DID PROVOKE COMMENT AND WONDER OVER HIS CHOICE OF BULLETS. I DO NOT DO FACEBOOK SO DO NOT KNOW ABOUT THE FORUM THE TOPIC CAME FROM, BUT HERE I THINK WE LIKE TO KNOW ABOUT LOADS, PERFORMANCE, FAILURES AND SUCCESSES. IF EXPERIENCE IS THE BEST TEACHER, THIS IS A GOOD PLACE TO SHARE IT.
Posted By: Franchise

Re: cape buff vs XTP - 03/17/2018 9:44 PM

I know that when I called James to tell him about this gentleman's kills, it was simply to say.....Damn, this guy killed two nice trophies with his revolver...the debate ensued afterwards ....previous discussions about 10mm's have nothing to do with this in my book....a 454 is and always has been a big game chambering
Posted By: jamesfromjersey

Re: cape buff vs XTP - 03/17/2018 9:47 PM

its nice to give credit when credit is due....and two Cape buffalo taken with any handgun with whatever choice of bullet deserves my credit
....nothing more nothing less
Posted By: jdhunt3

Re: cape buff vs XTP - 03/17/2018 10:00 PM

I just joined the site and I?m the hunter, so please allow me to tell the story. Both buffalo were shot in Mozambique in the Zambezi River swamp. My initial plan was to use a heavy for caliber LFPGC bullet. Because these buffalo are rarely alone and typically in very large herds of 600 or so, the PH only wanted me to use expanding bullets. I spoke to Hornady and they recommended their XTP-MAG bullet as did Freedom Arms. Both said they?d shot plenty of buffalo with them.

I was far from convinced that this would be the right bullet, but they shot very, very well producing tiny groups at 125 yards. When I got to Mozambique, I loaded two XTP-MAGs followed by three LFPGC bullets as the load plan in the cylinder under the assumption that if the XTP-MAGs failed, I?d have solids for back up rounds.

The first buffalo was taken at 75 yards. I shot him square in the left shoulder and he spun 180 degrees. I shot him square in the right shoulder and he went down. I walked up to him and shot him with a coup-de-grace shot in the neck at 25 yards. I retrieved all three bullets. The two XTP-MAGs were found on the off side just under the hide. The LFPGC lodged in the neck. Here are the bullets:

[img]https://www.dropbox.com/s/npgvs75mjjfbr8k/Photo%20Jul%2004%2C%2010%2052%2025%20PM.jpg?dl=0[/img]

The second buffalo was taken a little closer and facing me. I shot him once on the point of the left shoulder with an XTP-MAG. The bullet was not recovered although it did not exit. We simply didn?t have time to search for it because we wanted to get out of the swamp before dark. We didn?t make it by the way.
Posted By: jamesfromjersey

Re: cape buff vs XTP - 03/17/2018 10:13 PM

Jay. Thanks for taking the time to join HHM and letting us know exactly what happened with your Cape buffalo hunt.... Will look up bullet pics....
by the way...two beautiful Cape buff
Posted By: jdhunt3

Re: cape buff vs XTP - 03/17/2018 10:13 PM

 Originally Posted By: 45MAN
VERY NICE CAPE's, BUT, IMHO, VERY POOR CHOICE OF BULLET, WOULD LIKE MORE INFO ON THE HUNTS, WHAT IT TOOK TO GET THEM DOWN, etc. BTW, NOT TOO MANY PLACES THAT YOU GET 2 CAPE's ON LICENSE, WHERE WERE THEY TAKEN?


They were shot in Mozambique in the Zambezi River Delta swamp. Please see the last post for more information on the hunt and why I chose the XTP-MAG (it was not my initial first choice, but given how well they performed I?m now a believer).
Posted By: jamesfromjersey

Re: cape buff vs XTP - 03/17/2018 10:20 PM



Picture of Jay Hunt`s recovered bullets from his first cape buffalo...Shot with XTP`s was 75yds with cast bullet at 25yds to finish downed buff...,.
Posted By: jdhunt3

Re: cape buff vs XTP - 03/17/2018 10:23 PM

 Originally Posted By: 45MAN
 Originally Posted By: SacredCrows
Great animal. And a awesome successful hunt.

There you go guys. That?s how you respond to something like this.

Not with the...in a nutshell.

What an idiot for using xtp....

Or how many times did the ph have to shoot it after you used a sub par bullet....

The horse named opinion is way too high in here.


THE POST OF THE 2 BUFFS WAS NOT DONE BY THE HUNTER BUT BY JAMES FROM JERSEY, AND WAS ENTITILED TO PROVOKE SOME COMMENTS RE THE HUNTER'S CHOICE OF BULLETS. I WENT BACK AND READ ALL OF THE POSTS AND ALL OF THE ONES INVOLVING MR. HUNT WERE APPROPRIATE. HE RECEIVED MANY CONGRAGULATIONS, BUT AT THE SAME TIME THE TOPIC DID PROVOKE COMMENT AND WONDER OVER HIS CHOICE OF BULLETS. I DO NOT DO FACEBOOK SO DO NOT KNOW ABOUT THE FORUM THE TOPIC CAME FROM, BUT HERE I THINK WE LIKE TO KNOW ABOUT LOADS, PERFORMANCE, FAILURES AND SUCCESSES. IF EXPERIENCE IS THE BEST TEACHER, THIS IS A GOOD PLACE TO SHARE IT.


Thanks for coming to my defense, but my feelings are not hurt. I was fairly concerned about the XTP-MAG too until I saw the buffaloes drop! BTW, I failed to add, no PH shots were fired. They were not needed.
Posted By: 45MAN

Re: cape buff vs XTP - 03/17/2018 10:39 PM

JDHUNT: ALL I CAN SAY IS WOW ON THE SHOOTING AND THE BULLET PERFORMANCE. WTG, AND MANY THANKS FOR THE INFO.
Posted By: JDK

Re: cape buff vs XTP - 03/17/2018 11:36 PM

JDHUNT, welcome and thanks for coming to share you're story. I hope you'll stick around and make yourself comfortable. BTW, nice shooting!
Posted By: junebug

Re: cape buff vs XTP - 03/17/2018 11:48 PM

Congratulations sir on taking two fine buffalo bulls up close and personnel with a handgun. Some fine shooting too under pressure.I have always believed don't try to guide the pro as he does this every day and his life is on the line same as yours.The XTP's worked well for you as he said they would, nicely done.
Welcome, and I don't see that you need much defending!
Posted By: tradmark

Re: cape buff vs XTP - 03/18/2018 12:24 AM

Congrats on the buff. Thats good shooting!!! Im glad those xtp?s worked better for you than my box did on the last corsican ram hunt i was on. Thats a great hunt for sure. What other animals did you take?
Posted By: Coloradoyaler

Re: cape buff vs XTP - 03/18/2018 12:28 AM

jdhunt3

Congrats on two great buffs!

My question on weather the PH shot or not was not meant to offend but was meant as a question! I apologize if it offend you or anyone else. It was not my intension. I am thrilled as I am sure you are the PH never fired. All too often you hear about Guides and PH's being to fast on the trigger.

I had one of the gunsmith at Freedom arms tell me the reason they quite making bullets or should I say selling them is Hornady was making a great bullets for their 454's. IE: 300 xtp Mag.

Sincerely
Mark
Posted By: 45MAN

Re: cape buff vs XTP - 03/18/2018 12:35 AM

 Originally Posted By: Coloradoyaler
jdhunt3


I had one of the gunsmith at Freedom arms tell me the reason they quite making bullets or should I say selling them is Hornady was making a great bullets for their 454's. IE: 300 xtp Mag.

Sincerely
Mark


I KNOW FA SOLD THEIR BULLET MAKING MACHINES BUT THIS IS THE FIRST TIME I HAVE HEARD THAT IT WAS BECAUSE OF THE XTP MAG BULLETS.
Posted By: sixshot

Re: cape buff vs XTP - 03/18/2018 12:58 AM

Thanks for the report, great write up & it looks like you had a great hunt. Thanks for sharing.

Dick
Posted By: BRASF0311

Re: cape buff vs XTP - 03/18/2018 1:28 AM

I'd like to say Welcome to Mr. Hunt and congratulations for the successful hunts and thanks for sharing the back story.

I wish I could provide some useful insight to bullet performance that hasn't all ready been covered, but I'm just glad to be able to glean a little of the wisdom compiled in this awesome post.

Thanks to all.
Posted By: jdhunt3

Re: cape buff vs XTP - 03/18/2018 1:46 AM

 Originally Posted By: Coloradoyaler
jdhunt3

Congrats on two great buffs!

My question on weather the PH shot or not was not meant to offend but was meant as a question! I apologize if it offend you or anyone else. It was not my intension. I am thrilled as I am sure you are the PH never fired. All too often you hear about Guides and PH's being to fast on the trigger.

I had one of the gunsmith at Freedom arms tell me the reason they quite making bullets or should I say selling them is Hornady was making a great bullets for their 454's. IE: 300 xtp Mag.

Sincerely
Mark


No worries. I understand completely and was not offended in the least.
Posted By: jamesfromjersey

Re: cape buff vs XTP - 03/18/2018 2:04 AM

 Originally Posted By: tradmark
What other animals did you take?

Posted By: Mech 8

Re: cape buff vs XTP - 03/18/2018 3:04 AM

If I may inquire, at what velocity did you launch those XTP Mag's? Kudos on your accomplishments sir!
Posted By: billa

Re: cape buff vs XTP - 03/18/2018 3:11 AM

Jay, what a great hunt and congratulations on the 2 wonderful Buffs that you bagged. Thanks for joining our forum. It?s a pleasure having an accomplished handgunner as yourself joining our ranks. Please continue to share your experiences with us.
Posted By: jamesfromjersey

Re: cape buff vs XTP - 03/18/2018 3:39 AM

 Originally Posted By: Mech 8
If I may inquire, at what velocity did you launch those XTP Mag's?


a handload with a 300 grain XTP Mag bullet
over 30.0grs H-110 for a 1609fps MV..

PS-I posted this info until JH picks up on the site...
Posted By: Zee

Re: cape buff vs XTP - 03/18/2018 5:21 AM

Well, glory be!! You mean the Witch Hunt isn?t all encompassing?!?

Good for you. You must assuredly have experienced an anomaly according to some on this site.

I don?t think I am able to believe you. The internet says so.
Posted By: tradmark

Re: cape buff vs XTP - 03/18/2018 5:29 AM

Witch hunt, zee?i dont believe anyone ever said that bullet doesnt ever work. Many of us have had failures and its a discussion and always has been. You have some that have had great experiences, some havent. I dont believe anyone hasnt given proper comgratulations nor feels mr hunt hasnt had a couple of incredible safaris nor is belittling his accomplishments.
Posted By: Zee

Re: cape buff vs XTP - 03/18/2018 6:03 AM

I don?t think I stuttered.
Posted By: SacredCrows

Re: cape buff vs XTP - 03/18/2018 1:43 PM

 Originally Posted By: Zee
Well, glory be!! You mean the Witch Hunt isn?t all encompassing?!?

Good for you. You must assuredly have experienced an anomaly according to some on this site.

I don?t think I am able to believe you. The internet says so.


Hahahahah

Perfect. High five
Posted By: tradmark

Re: cape buff vs XTP - 03/18/2018 2:08 PM

 Originally Posted By: Zee
I don?t think I stuttered.


Didnt accuse you of stuttering. Just misreading the intent and words others have written.
Posted By: Raptortrapper

Re: cape buff vs XTP - 03/18/2018 2:31 PM

What an awesome thread!! Great story and pictures. Welcome Mr. Hunt!

THAT is what an xtp-mag is supposed to look like!
Posted By: Whitworth

Re: cape buff vs XTP - 03/18/2018 3:20 PM

First of all, congratulations on the exceptional trophies, Mr. Hunt, and welcome to the forum!

Folks here and everywhere will make their bullet choices on a number of factors. Successful use of said bullets is a strong motivator and convincing evidence your bullet choice is the right one. My beef with XTPs (Mag and otherwise) has come from multiple and spectacular failures during the Bovine Bash over the last two years. Then, Mr. Hunt exhibits clear picture perfect performance on two fantastic Cape buffalo. And herin lies the problem I have that boils down to one word: inconsistent. I hate inconsistency. Granted there are few bullets that deliver EVERY time, but I strive to find the one that will work like it is supposed to consistently. Simple concept.
Posted By: Zee

Re: cape buff vs XTP - 03/18/2018 3:32 PM

 Originally Posted By: tradmark
 Originally Posted By: Zee
I don?t think I stuttered.


Didnt accuse you of stuttering. Just misreading the intent and words others have written.


I was trying to be silly with that comment. Reading it back, now..........looks like I was being an ass.

Not my intent. Just meant that..........I meant what I said.

:fistbump:
Posted By: tradmark

Re: cape buff vs XTP - 03/18/2018 3:36 PM

Gotcha. 🤙
Posted By: JDK

Re: cape buff vs XTP - 03/18/2018 4:22 PM

 Originally Posted By: jamesfromjersey
 Originally Posted By: tradmark
What other animals did you take?


I just hope that, in the future, Jay can take some time off and do some hunting
Posted By: jdhunt3

Re: cape buff vs XTP - 03/18/2018 5:22 PM

 Originally Posted By: Zee
Well, glory be!! You mean the Witch Hunt isn?t all encompassing?!?

Good for you. You must assuredly have experienced an anomaly according to some on this site.

I don?t think I am able to believe you. The internet says so.


LOL!
Posted By: sixshot

Re: cape buff vs XTP - 03/18/2018 7:51 PM

I agree this is one of the best threads we've ever discussed here on the forum. It shows once again that there are lots of variables in our sport & that one time a bullet can succeed & the next time it can fail, even if the animal is smaller than the one where it was successful, go figure!
Maybe it's the angle, maybe the point of impact, mostly I think it goes back to velocity, just my thoughts but I'll give my reason for it.
On this Buffalo hunt the first 2 shots were at 75 yds with a muzzle velocity of just over 1600 fps. Not sure of the impact velocity but you math majors can figure it pretty quick. Maybe, just maybe that had something to do with the success of those 2 shots, just my thoughts.
Going back to one of Max's replies earlier on using a 400 gr hard cast at the Bovine Bash, he said it blew up on impact at close range, I'm not really surprised that it did, that's asking a lot of any bullet that's not pure copper, etc. Again, here's another maybe, what if that 400 gr hard cast had been going 200 fps slower on impact, would it have preformed better, I don't know, you guys have a lot more experience on those big animals than I do, I have no experience on them but every bullet except for the big solids has it's limits.
An XTP at the muzzle might have blown up just like that hard cast but at 75 yds had slowed down to where it was within the design limits of that bullet.
All of this is just asking questions, but velocity plays a factor in how a bullet fails or succeeds & this latest thread has really been a good read, I've enjoyed it very much.

Dick
Posted By: jamesfromjersey

Re: cape buff vs XTP - 03/18/2018 8:55 PM

 Originally Posted By: Coloradoyaler


I spoke to Hornady and they recommended their XTP-MAG bullet as did Freedom Arms. Both said they?d shot plenty of buffalo with them.

I had one of the gunsmith at Freedom arms tell me the reason they quite making bullets or should I say selling them is Hornady was making a great bullets for their 454's. IE: 300 xtp Mag.



I know Freedom Arms gets ton`s of feedback from handgun hunters on how their guns and ammo they used had performed and found it interesting to read the above... I would think for a company like FA`s to make any recommendation they must done a little research into the numbers found them positive before they would commit... This does not mean the XTP is a perfect bullet because there is no such thing but for the 20 failures someone had with XTP`s...there is someone else with 20(maybe 19) successful hunts... As with people...you can find a little good in everyone if you look hard enough
;\)
;\)
\:\)
;\)
Posted By: Ernie

Re: cape buff vs XTP - 03/18/2018 9:58 PM

Understanding the impact velocities of "XYZ" bullet has always been important, or at least it should be!
This goes for both straight wall case bullets or bullets that would be used in bottleneck cartridges.
There is a velocity range of said bullet. Some are narrow and some are broad. Equally important, at least for me.
Within that range (especially the broad range) the bullet will act differently.
Add to that, the type of animal and what parts (Shot Placement) of said animal get hit by that same bullet will also determine what happens to it.
Would I consider a different bullet if I always planned on double shoulder shots or quartering shots? In other words, Always planning on hitting bone.
If, I am a lung shooter that picks his shots, can I be successful with a bullet that is not as tough as would be required for penetrating heavy bone?
I am not even talking about the 300 XTP on Cape's, but rather how we approach hunting in general.

Generally speaking from what I am learning about large pigs, is that they are a tougher animal to kill than deer/antelope.
The majority of guys here are deer/antelope hunters with some elk and black bear thrown in, with pigs of course.
It's cool to see the bigger animals, but the majority of us don't do that on a regular basis.
Posted By: SacredCrows

Re: cape buff vs XTP - 03/18/2018 10:37 PM

I would venture to say the xtp is probably the most used handgun bullet for several reasons.

1. A successful marketing campaign.
2. A good dealer marketing campaign allowing the dealer to make more $ from them thus stocking more.
3. Many ammo companies using their product in ?custom? lines of ammo.

If you read around the web it?s apparent how widely used they are....no secret there.

Most people are not shooting cow type animals at point blank range at magnum velocities.

From reading many hunter reports from around the web and social media the vast majority report good results with these bullets.

But to be noted. Most of these people are hunting North American game. Hogs, deer , bear and so on.

But as seen above they also work on the big critters. Both were reported to be shot at a moderate distance allowing the bullet to slow down a touch. This is more than likely key since velocity makes or breaks a bullet upon impact.
Posted By: Whitworth

Re: cape buff vs XTP - 03/18/2018 10:41 PM

 Originally Posted By: Ernie

It's cool to see the bigger animals, but the majority of us don't do that on a regular basis.


One must go to extremes to test the limits......
Posted By: Whitworth

Re: cape buff vs XTP - 03/18/2018 10:51 PM

 Originally Posted By: jamesfromjersey
 Originally Posted By: Coloradoyaler


I spoke to Hornady and they recommended their XTP-MAG bullet as did Freedom Arms. Both said they?d shot plenty of buffalo with them.

I had one of the gunsmith at Freedom arms tell me the reason they quite making bullets or should I say selling them is Hornady was making a great bullets for their 454's. IE: 300 xtp Mag.



I know Freedom Arms gets ton`s of feedback from handgun hunters on how their guns and ammo they used had performed and found it interesting to read the above... I would think for a company like FA`s to make any recommendation they must done a little research into the numbers found them positive before they would commit... This does not mean the XTP is a perfect bullet because there is no such thing but for the 20 failures someone had with XTP`s...there is someone else with 20(maybe 19) successful hunts... As with people...you can find a little good in everyone if you look hard enough
;\)
;\)
\:\)
;\)


I would question the veracity of that claim as frankly the old FA bullets were of a much higher quality than the XTP. I?m sorry they are no longer produced. I have to call FA this week and I?ll ask them about why they no longer produce this bullet. I will bet it was a financial decision.
Posted By: jamesfromjersey

Re: cape buff vs XTP - 03/18/2018 10:55 PM

Whit, you read my mind as I was going to give them a call myself..
Posted By: tradmark

Re: cape buff vs XTP - 03/18/2018 10:56 PM

 Originally Posted By: sixshot
I agree this is one of the best threads we've ever discussed here on the forum. It shows once again that there are lots of variables in our sport & that one time a bullet can succeed & the next time it can fail, even if the animal is smaller than the one where it was successful, go figure!
Maybe it's the angle, maybe the point of impact, mostly I think it goes back to velocity, just my thoughts but I'll give my reason for it.
On this Buffalo hunt the first 2 shots were at 75 yds with a muzzle velocity of just over 1600 fps. Not sure of the impact velocity but you math majors can figure it pretty quick. Maybe, just maybe that had something to do with the success of those 2 shots, just my thoughts.
Going back to one of Max's replies earlier on using a 400 gr hard cast at the Bovine Bash, he said it blew up on impact at close range, I'm not really surprised that it did, that's asking a lot of any bullet that's not pure copper, etc. Again, here's another maybe, what if that 400 gr hard cast had been going 200 fps slower on impact, would it have preformed better, I don't know, you guys have a lot more experience on those big animals than I do, I have no experience on them but every bullet except for the big solids has it's limits.
An XTP at the muzzle might have blown up just like that hard cast but at 75 yds had slowed down to where it was within the design limits of that bullet.
All of this is just asking questions, but velocity plays a factor in how a bullet fails or succeeds & this latest thread has really been a good read, I've enjoyed it very much.

Dick
.

I think youre right. Finding out those velocity levels and what point the bullets work well in and which bullets give the most margin of error is the question i seek an answer to.
Posted By: tradmark

Re: cape buff vs XTP - 03/18/2018 11:00 PM

I think the bovine bash was frankly always billed as a bullet test for large dangerous game. Nothing more, nothing less, but arguably using the best bullet testing media one can use.
Posted By: jamesfromjersey

Re: cape buff vs XTP - 03/18/2018 11:05 PM

 Originally Posted By: tradmark


Finding out those velocity levels and what point the bullets work well in and which bullets give the most margin of error is the question i seek an answer to.


Mark, Sounds like you and Zee think alike
Posted By: jwp475

Re: cape buff vs XTP - 03/18/2018 11:40 PM

 Originally Posted By: Whitworth
 Originally Posted By: jamesfromjersey
 Originally Posted By: Coloradoyaler


I spoke to Hornady and they recommended their XTP-MAG bullet as did Freedom Arms. Both said they?d shot plenty of buffalo with them.

I had one of the gunsmith at Freedom arms tell me the reason they quite making bullets or should I say selling them is Hornady was making a great bullets for their 454's. IE: 300 xtp Mag.



I know Freedom Arms gets ton`s of feedback from handgun hunters on how their guns and ammo they used had performed and found it interesting to read the above... I would think for a company like FA`s to make any recommendation they must done a little research into the numbers found them positive before they would commit... This does not mean the XTP is a perfect bullet because there is no such thing but for the 20 failures someone had with XTP`s...there is someone else with 20(maybe 19) successful hunts... As with people...you can find a little good in everyone if you look hard enough
;\)
;\)
\:\)
;\)


I would question the veracity of that claim as frankly the old FA bullets were of a much higher quality than the XTP. I?m sorry they are no longer produced. I have to call FA this week and I?ll ask them about why they no longer produce this bullet. I will bet it was a financial decision.


When FA stop producing their bullets Winchester picked them up. The FA bullet had a nice flat point a jacket and a hardened core. They were very good Bullets.
Posted By: Raptortrapper

Re: cape buff vs XTP - 03/19/2018 12:31 AM

Why don't bullet makers have published recommended speeds for each species? I know its not an absolute, but wouldn't that put a template down to kinda prevent some of the bullet failures? I know there are a lot of "what ifs" in this, but after all, it is a hypothetical question.



Posted By: SacredCrows

Re: cape buff vs XTP - 03/19/2018 1:29 AM

 Originally Posted By: Raptortrapper
Why don't bullet makers have published recommended speeds for each species? I know its not an absolute, but wouldn't that put a template down to kinda prevent some of the bullet failures? I know there are a lot of "what ifs" in this, but after all, it is a hypothetical question.





Too many what ifs. And you couldn?t possibly replicate every animal in a lab. They publish or will provide recommended minimum and maximum speeds for general use.
Posted By: 45MAN

Re: cape buff vs XTP - 03/19/2018 2:06 AM

WHITWORTH: I REMEMBER FAIRLY WELL THE TIME THAT FA SOLD THEIR BULLET MAKING EQUIPMENT AND AS I RECALL IT WAS PURELY A FINANCIAL DECISION.

JWP475: I BELIEVE WINCHESTER LOADED FA BULLETS BUT NEVER MADE THEM. THAT IS WHAT I RECALL.
Posted By: jamesfromjersey

Re: cape buff vs XTP - 03/19/2018 2:07 AM

 Originally Posted By: jwp475
 Originally Posted By: Whitworth
[quote=jamesfromjersey][quote=Coloradoyaler]

I spoke to Hornady and they recommended their XTP-MAG bullet as did Freedom Arms. Both said they?d shot plenty of buffalo with them.

I had one of the gunsmith at Freedom arms tell me the reason they quite making bullets or should I say selling them is Hornady was making a great bullets for their 454's. IE: 300 xtp Mag.



I have to call FA this week and I?ll ask them about why they no longer produce this bullet. I will bet it was a financial decision.


When FA stop producing their bullets Winchester picked them up.


There`s no doubt that FA`s made an excellent bullet but whatever the reason they stopped with their JFP is one thing because my question to Freedom Arms is: why do they recommend XTP Mag bullets on big game??
Posted By: SacredCrows

Re: cape buff vs XTP - 03/19/2018 2:20 AM

Well mr Baker is a fairly well accomplished handgun hunter with his products. I would put some good weight behind his recommendations.
Posted By: jamesfromjersey

Re: cape buff vs XTP - 03/19/2018 2:47 AM

\:\)
\:\)
Posted By: Zee

Re: cape buff vs XTP - 03/19/2018 3:24 AM

 Originally Posted By: Whitworth
Granted there are few bullets that deliver EVERY time, but I strive to find the one that will work like it is supposed to consistently. Simple concept.


Well, stand tall on that soap box and enjoy a cool glass of disappointment. Life is full of it and variables don?t help.

I believe they have been searching for the magic bullet since the Kennedy Assasination. Let me know when you find it. The one that does everything you want to everything you want.

We may never find it. But, the search is fun anyway.
Posted By: tradmark

Re: cape buff vs XTP - 03/19/2018 3:29 AM

Lets not forget the big hornady/fa vs buffalo bore dust up. Then again that may be a different story for a different day but may explain a little bit of their
Closeness. We can debate endlessly on whether that 300mag xtp is a good choice on game like capebuff and post examples of successes and failures of said bullet. However, one wonders when a recommendation is given on an expandable for cape buff why wouldnt someone with tons of experience mention the aframes. They may be expensive but ive never seen nor remotely heard of a failure or separation. Ive run thru large game at over 2000 fps and had em open at less than 1000.

Back in 2012 as i was planning my hunt for cape buff i had discussed bullet choices with a gentleman at freedom arms and he hadnt used an aframe before. I had talked to bob baker about shooting a bison with a 41 mag, to which he seemed a little surprised about using an aframe before my next african hunt in 2015. Im not sure if they have used em. Maybe but they didnt seem to familiar with that bullet.
Posted By: jamesfromjersey

Re: cape buff vs XTP - 03/19/2018 4:03 AM

Hey Mark...sounds familiar...remember "we have to re-evaluate"...
Posted By: tradmark

Re: cape buff vs XTP - 03/19/2018 4:10 AM

Yessir, i do, remember u used things many of the pioneers and leaders of handgun hunting hadnt yet james. Many still havent.
Posted By: Raptortrapper

Re: cape buff vs XTP - 03/19/2018 4:34 AM

 Originally Posted By: SacredCrows
 Originally Posted By: Raptortrapper
Why don't bullet makers have published recommended speeds for each species? I know its not an absolute, but wouldn't that put a template down to kinda prevent some of the bullet failures? I know there are a lot of "what ifs" in this, but after all, it is a hypothetical question.


Too many what ifs. And you couldn?t possibly replicate every animal in a lab. They publish or will provide recommended minimum and maximum speeds for general use.


Yup, I know. That's why it was just hypothetical. But it'd be nice to have. But, as we all know and have seen evidence of, even within their recommended velocities we still have failures. Guess I was just thinking out loud...
Posted By: jamesfromjersey

Re: cape buff vs XTP - 03/19/2018 4:42 AM

Hey Zee.... Watch out....your experience is showing
;\)
Posted By: Whitworth

Re: cape buff vs XTP - 03/19/2018 8:51 AM

 Originally Posted By: Zee
 Originally Posted By: Whitworth
Granted there are few bullets that deliver EVERY time, but I strive to find the one that will work like it is supposed to consistently. Simple concept.


Well, stand tall on that soap box and enjoy a cool glass of disappointment. Life is full of it and variables don?t help.

I believe they have been searching for the magic bullet since the Kennedy Assasination. Let me know when you find it. The one that does everything you want to everything you want.

We may never find it. But, the search is fun anyway.


I said consistent , not perfect. So far there have been a few standouts like the XPB and the A-frame on the expanding front, and we know what works on the solid front.

Should we stop seeking consistent performance? What fun would that be?
Posted By: Whitworth

Re: cape buff vs XTP - 03/19/2018 8:53 AM

 Originally Posted By: jamesfromjersey
Hey Zee.... Watch out....your experience is showing
;\)


Or cynicism......
Posted By: Zee

Re: cape buff vs XTP - 03/19/2018 10:55 AM

 Originally Posted By: jamesfromjersey
Hey Zee.... Watch out....your experience is showing
;\)


https://youtu.be/AbekiD1yVSU

Posted By: jdhunt3

Re: cape buff vs XTP - 03/19/2018 4:10 PM

 Originally Posted By: tradmark
However, one wonders when a recommendation is given on an expandable for cape buff why wouldnt someone with tons of experience mention the aframes.


My bet is that the A-Frame is "too good" of a bullet. The purpose of using the XTP-MAG was to ensure that the bullet would not exit on the offside shoulder and wound a buffalo behind the intended target. On my first buffalo, he was in a smaller isolated group of about 10 or so cows about 75 yards behind the main herd, so I could have used solids on him. The second bull was literally surrounded on all sides (including behind him) with cows, calves, and much lesser bulls. If the bullet would have penetrated, I'd have had a goat rope on my hands.
Posted By: sixshot

Re: cape buff vs XTP - 03/19/2018 4:44 PM

I don't know the reason FA quit making bullets but I do know a few years back a guy came to visit me for a week & we went over to FA, it's only 45 minutes & he bought all the remaining stock of 45 caliber bullets they had left & they had a lot!

This same fellow had a strange experience on a goat or some type of other exotic where a bullet blew up on the shoulder using a premium bullet, not sure if it was one of the FA bullets or not, I'll find out. He just got in a bad wreck last week.

Dick
Posted By: 45MAN

Re: cape buff vs XTP - 03/19/2018 4:52 PM

DICK: I HAD A 300 gr FA BULLET BREAKUP ON THE POINT OF A KUDU's SHOULDER. THEY WERE VERY HARD BULLETS BUT HARD IS ALSO BRITTLE. THE SHOT SHUD HAVE BEEN A KILLER BUT THE BULLET DID NOT MAKE IT TO THE VITALS AND IT TOOK SOME TRACKING AND FOLLOW UP TO FINALLY ANCHOR HIM, AND IS ONE OF THE REASONS I GAVE UP ON THE FA BULLETS FOR BIG GAME HUNTING. THEY WORK GREAT ON WHITETAILS THOUGH AND WERE VERY ACCURATE BULLETS.
Posted By: tradmark

Re: cape buff vs XTP - 03/19/2018 7:10 PM

I used to think that and a monolithic solid is the best bet for sure, bit ive used aframes on several and had great results.
Posted By: jdhunt3

Re: cape buff vs XTP - 03/19/2018 7:58 PM

Several people have asked for photos of the animals taken on this safari. For those that are interested, I've started a new thread here. Mozambique Pistol Safari After Action Report
Posted By: billa

Re: cape buff vs XTP - 03/19/2018 8:06 PM

Guys, This has been a great topic. I stayed out of the fray as I have never shot anything this big. Lots of experienced hunters chiming in that I respect as experts. Thanks to all for sharing and thanks to James for starting it and for dragging Jay into our group.
Posted By: tradmark

Re: cape buff vs XTP - 03/19/2018 9:25 PM

Yup, great thread and inspired by a great hunt!
Posted By: Raptortrapper

Re: cape buff vs XTP - 03/19/2018 10:57 PM

This thread gets my vote for thread of the decade. Great stuff from those highly regarded!
Posted By: MrMcPorkchop

Re: cape buff vs XTP - 03/20/2018 2:29 AM

 Originally Posted By: Raptortrapper
This thread gets my vote for thread of the decade. Great stuff from those highly regarded!


I agree, great stuff in here. Every time I would check back to the thread I had to use view all because there were new pages of comments each time I came back and refreshed!


Eric
Posted By: sixshot

Re: cape buff vs XTP - 03/20/2018 5:19 AM

Rey, I think my buddy also used a FA bullet but I'm not positive & I didn't get to call him today, we were in Salt Lake at the Cancer center all day, got home late.
Not wanting to hi-jack this great thread but did want to mention that a good buddy of mine who has since passed away shot a Bison with my Ruger SRH about 15 years ago using one of my 370 gr cast bullets from a Ballisticast Mold that was about a 15 BHN. I think the load was 20 or 21 grs of 4227 so about 1000 to 1075 fps, some where in that range (guessing) The distance was about 20 yds as it was just a harvest bull about 2 years old. He shot it in the head, face on & Ron, the guy with him said it's hind legs kicked the belly so fast you could hardly see it.
Ron has also passed away & he also handgunned a bull but I don't remember the details. They didn't recover either bullet but had 2 bull Bison with 2 shots. This was west of Dillon, Montana.
I think if the bullet had been going faster it might have failed, just my thoughts.

Dick
Posted By: jamesfromjersey

Re: cape buff vs XTP - 03/20/2018 5:43 AM

 Originally Posted By: 45MAN
DICK: I HAD A 300 gr FA BULLET BREAKUP ON THE POINT OF A KUDU's SHOULDER. THEY WERE VERY HARD BULLETS BUT HARD IS ALSO BRITTLE. THE SHOT SHUD HAVE BEEN A KILLER BUT THE BULLET DID NOT MAKE IT TO THE VITALS AND IT TOOK SOME TRACKING AND FOLLOW UP TO FINALLY ANCHOR HIM, AND IS ONE OF THE REASONS I GAVE UP ON THE FA BULLETS FOR BIG GAME HUNTING. THEY WORK GREAT ON WHITETAILS THOUGH AND WERE VERY ACCURATE BULLETS.


There was a post about a year ago that covered the Freedom Arms bullets.. I posted a pic of a 260gr jfp recovered from Shiras moose that only lost 0.2gr. and could be reloaded while Gregg Richter showed one of his recoverd FA`s bullets that performed as if the lead was much softer then mine...There were changes..
Posted By: JDK

Re: cape buff vs XTP - 03/20/2018 4:27 PM

I find this whole discussion about speed fascinating. I must admit not giving it too much thought in the past. I, like many, looked for the max speed with a given bullet. Luckily, I believe the factories do a good job designing their slugs for that use. This being for typical deer/hog use. But, it opens up new options when you view it with an eye for what slowing it down will do to bullet performance. An example would be bullets designed for rapid/explosive expansion at rifle velocity performing as a nice deer/hog round when driven at slower handgun speeds. Great discussion!
Posted By: sixshot

Re: cape buff vs XTP - 03/20/2018 4:50 PM

Talked to my buddy today & it was a FA bullet from a 454 at 1900 fps MV & it blew up on the off shoulder of a Fallow deer at about 100 yds. He said it was the only FA bullet he's ever recovered.

Dick
Posted By: 45MAN

Re: cape buff vs XTP - 03/20/2018 7:30 PM

DICK: AT 1,900 fps I BET IT WAS A 260gr. I SHOT A FERAL HOG WITH ONE AT A SIMILAR VELOCITY, BUT AT CLOSER RANGE, AND IT BROKE/SHEARED INTO A LOT OF LITTLE PIECES. ALTHOUGH THIS WAS A LONG TIME AGO, IT IS ONE OF THE REASONS I RECENTLY GOT FURY BULLETS TO MAKE ME SOME 260gr FP FMJ's.
Posted By: tradmark

Re: cape buff vs XTP - 03/20/2018 8:32 PM

So some never deform at all. Some blow up. Anyone ever hear of a fa bulet with nice expansion?
Posted By: 45MAN

Re: cape buff vs XTP - 03/20/2018 11:39 PM

FA PREACHED THAT BULLETS HAD TO BE HARD AND/OR HEAVY JACKETED TO WITHSTAND THE 454's PRESSURES AS THE BULLET JUMPED FROM CYLINDER INTO THE BARREL THROAT, THAT IS WHY THEY MADE THEM HARD, NOT NECESSARILY FOR TERMINAL PERFORMANCE PURPOSES. I DO NOT BELIEVE THEY WERE INTENDED TO EXPAND BUT THEY COULD DEFORM SOME, OR WORSE, BREAK UP. YEARS AGO I GOT SOME OF THE EARLY SWIFT 300gr .452 A-FRAME BULLETS BUT SEEMED TO HAVE PRESSURE PROBLEMS WITH THEM IN FULL HOUSE LOADS. LATER, SWIFT HARDENED THE LEAD CORE IN THOSE BULLETS. I QUIT USING THE OLDER ONES, AND HAVE NOT TRIED THE NEWER HARDER CORE ONES, AS I BASICALLY DECIDED THAT BULLET INTEGRITY WAS THE WAY TO GO, e.g. CORBON PENETRATORS, THEN THE PUNCH BULLET, THEN THE BARNES BUSTER, AND SOME OTHERS THAT I HAVE NOT TRIED. WHAT MAY USUALLY WORK ON WHITETAILS AND FERAL HOGS MAY NOT NECESSARILY WORK ON THE BIG STUFF, BUT WHAT WORKS ON THE BIG STUFF SHOULD USUALLY WORK ON WHITETAILS. etc., ESPECIALLY WITH SHOULDER SHOTS.

SINCE FOR A LONG TIME I WAS A FREQUENT VISITOR TO AFRICA, AND HUNTING BIG AND DANGEROUS GAME, I DECIDED ON BULLET INTEGRITY AND SHOULDER SHOTS (AS ZEE WOULD SAY: PUT 'EM IN STRUCTURE) AND TRAINED AND TRAINED TO INSTINCTIVELY COME UP THE FRONT LEG AND TRY TO DEAD CENTER THE SHOULDER. THIS HAS SERVED ME WELL FOR MANY YEARS AND I THINK I WILL STICK WITH IT.
Posted By: Raptortrapper

Re: cape buff vs XTP - 03/21/2018 12:19 AM

45Man, please don't take this as me being confrontational as I know little to nothing about the bullets you mentioned, but do you favor them in that order? Corbon, then punch, then Barnes.

Just curious as it is the first time I've ever heard anyone say they prefer anything over punch bullets. Just don't want to put words in your mouth if that isn't what you meant.

Thanks!!
Posted By: 45MAN

Re: cape buff vs XTP - 03/21/2018 1:40 AM

RAPTORTRAPPER: MY RECITATION OF BULLETS WAS A CHRONOLOGICAL LISTING, NOT A PREFERENCE LISTING. CORBON USED TO MAKE A 320gr RN .452 PENETRATOR (I KILLED MY FIRST CAPE BUFFALO WITH THIS BULLET IN ZIMBABWE IN 1993) BUT I WAS NOT HAPPY WITH THE PENETRATION, SO I GOT PETER PI @ CORBON TO MAKE ME SOME FP PENETRATORS @ 305grs. EVERY BATCH HAD A SLIGHTLY DIFFERENT MEPLAT WIDTH BUT THEY ALL SHOT WELL AND WORKED WELL (I SHOT MY SECOND CAPE WITH 1 OF THESE IN MOZAMBIQUE IN 2001), UNTIL THE LAST BATCH, WHICH HAD A WAY TOO WIDE MEPLAT, WHICH IMPEDED PENETRATION, AND WHICH PROBABLY COST ME AN ELEPHANT AND DID COST ME A CAPE BUFFALO IN 2003. THE NEXT (AND LAST TIME) I WENT TO AFRICA (IN 2009) I USED THE PUNCH BULLET, WITH WHICH I TOOK MY 3rd CAPE BUFFALO.


IMHO, THE ABSOLUTE BEST BIG GAME/DANGEROUS GAME "FAILSAFE" BULLET IS THE PUNCH BULLET. IF IT IS BULLET INTEGRITY YOU WANT, WITH A DECENT WEIGHT TO LENGTH RATIO, AND AN APPROPRIATELY WIDE MEPLAT, GET SOME PUNCH BULLETS.

I UNDERSTAND THAT CORBON NOW USES THE BARNES BUSTER IN ITS PENETRATOR ROUNDS. I SHOT A 6 FOOT BLACK BEAR WITH THE BARNES A COUPLE OF YEARS AGO. DEAD CENTER THRU THE SHOULDERS, HE WENT DOWN AND THEN GOT UP AND MADE A SHORT DEATH RUN. ONLY ANIMAL I HAVE SHOT AT WITH THE BARNES BUSTER.
Posted By: Raptortrapper

Re: cape buff vs XTP - 03/21/2018 2:16 AM

Awesome!! Thank you for that!
Posted By: Gregg Richter

Re: cape buff vs XTP - 03/21/2018 4:56 PM

 Originally Posted By: Whitworth
 Originally Posted By: jamesfromjersey
 Originally Posted By: Coloradoyaler


I spoke to Hornady and they recommended their XTP-MAG bullet as did Freedom Arms. Both said they?d shot plenty of buffalo with them.

I had one of the gunsmith at Freedom arms tell me the reason they quite making bullets or should I say selling them is Hornady was making a great bullets for their 454's. IE: 300 xtp Mag.



I know Freedom Arms gets ton`s of feedback from handgun hunters on how their guns and ammo they used had performed and found it interesting to read the above... I would think for a company like FA`s to make any recommendation they must done a little research into the numbers found them positive before they would commit... This does not mean the XTP is a perfect bullet because there is no such thing but for the 20 failures someone had with XTP`s...there is someone else with 20(maybe 19) successful hunts... As with people...you can find a little good in everyone if you look hard enough
;\)
;\)
\:\)
;\)


I would question the veracity of that claim as frankly the old FA bullets were of a much higher quality than the XTP. I?m sorry they are no longer produced. I have to call FA this week and I?ll ask them about why they no longer produce this bullet. I will bet it was a financial decision.


Whit,

Years ago when I ordered my FA .454 I also bought several boxes of their lead nose bullets.

I used them on two bull elk (one went down on first shot, one took two, different shot angles) I basically was satisfied with that bullet but didn't think it could walk on water.


When WapitiRod built my .475 (BTW I miss him) I developed a load with 400 grain XTP mags and consequently killed two bull elk and four mule deer bucks. Again I was satisfied and maybe I do think this bullet is special.

By being a member here for years I have learned a lot from others and probably would not have chosen the XTP for Cape Buff. As others have posted here, we are all learning here. I have even seen you, Whit, going to jacketed bullets and using scopes!

Thank you to Mr. Hunt for shedding "new" light on the XTP and CONGRATULATIONS once again!

And the learning goes on...
\:\)


Posted By: Whitworth

Re: cape buff vs XTP - 03/21/2018 5:46 PM

Gregg, I use expanding bullets in limited applications as I have always. I still prefer a solid for the really big critters. Scopes I still don?t really get along with but only in limited applications. Have one on the .444 as I anticipate shots past 100 yards or else a red dot would be sitting up top. But yes, I have evolved over the years.
Posted By: tradmark

Re: cape buff vs XTP - 03/21/2018 6:00 PM

Hopefully we all do. This forum can be used to sharpen us or tear us all down.
Posted By: sixshot

Re: cape buff vs XTP - 03/21/2018 7:26 PM

I think in hunting we all evolve, it's just a part of the process. As you shoot more game you change your mind as to what you like or dislike.
We don't always shoot really big animals or animals that are really close so we not only change bullets but we change sighting set ups like scopes, red dots or irons to suit the needs, that's just part of the progression.
I've always said, that's why they make chocolate & vanilla, so we have a choice.
You might say a premium (XXX size) animal requires a premium bullet while deer size game can pretty much be taken with about any well placed bullet within reason. That comes from experience.

Dick
Posted By: tradmark

Re: cape buff vs XTP - 03/21/2018 11:23 PM

👍👍👍
Posted By: 45MAN

Re: cape buff vs XTP - 03/22/2018 1:34 AM

WITH EXPANDING BULLETS "YOU NEVER KNOW", e.g. I JUST SAW A 2009 PICTURE/POST OF A BIG ELAND SHOT WITH A BFR 500 S&W USING 350gr XTP's. THE HUNTER COMMENTED THAT IT TOOK HIM 4 SHOTS TO PUT HIM DOWN AND THAT THE XTP's WERE A POOR CHOICE OF BULLETS FOR THE ELAND.
Posted By: Zee

Re: cape buff vs XTP - 03/22/2018 2:00 AM

Where did he hit the eland? What organs were damaged? How far were the shots? What was the impact velocity?

We?re there pictures of the recovered bullets?

Without details and data, we have speculation and here say.

Sorry. I?m into details. I do not trust assumptions.

Nothing personal.
Posted By: 45MAN

Re: cape buff vs XTP - 03/22/2018 3:00 AM

ALL I KNOW IS WHAT THE HUNTER HIMSELF SAID, i.e. THAT THE XTP's WERE A POOR CHOICE OF BULLETS. OBVIOUSLY HE WAS NOT HAPPY WITH THEIR PERFORMANCE, WHILE OTHERS HAVE BEEN PLEASED WITH XTP's ON LARGE ANIMALS.
Posted By: Zee

Re: cape buff vs XTP - 03/22/2018 3:27 AM

https://youtu.be/BSUMBBFjxrY
Posted By: Raptortrapper

Re: cape buff vs XTP - 03/22/2018 3:37 AM

BWAAAAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!! I love that line! I have degrees in biology and chemistry. I couldn't agree more!
Posted By: 45MAN

Re: cape buff vs XTP - 03/22/2018 10:14 AM

 Originally Posted By: 45MAN
ALL I KNOW IS WHAT THE HUNTER HIMSELF SAID, i.e. THAT THE XTP's WERE A POOR CHOICE OF BULLETS. OBVIOUSLY HE WAS NOT HAPPY WITH THEIR PERFORMANCE, WHILE OTHERS HAVE BEEN PLEASED WITH XTP's ON LARGE ANIMALS.


PistolHNTR POSTED THE PHOTO ON 9/11/08 UNDER THE TITLE OF "ELAND", AND HE SAID, AND I AM QUOTING HIM: "the xtp,s were not a good bullet choice" (HIS WORDS NOT MINE). THE PHOTO AND POSTS CAN BE ACCESSED THRU THE BRAGGING BOARD FORUM. BTW, AN OUTSTANDING ELAND AND A GREAT PHOTO.

PistolHNTR: IF YOU ARE STILL OUT THERE CAN YOU PROVIDE MORE INFO RE WHY YOU THOUGHT THE XTP's WERE NOT A GOOD BULLET CHOICE?
Posted By: SacredCrows

Re: cape buff vs XTP - 03/22/2018 1:34 PM

 Originally Posted By: Zee
Where did he hit the eland? What organs were damaged? How far were the shots? What was the impact velocity?

We?re there pictures of the recovered bullets?

Without details and data, we have speculation and here say.

Sorry. I?m into details. I do not trust assumptions.

Nothing personal.


I?m going to guess someone didn?t hit it in the ticker....bigger bullets, other bullets, don?t make up for bad shot placement. We need hand grenades!

I wasn?t there....just a guess....an educated one....
Posted By: Craig44

Re: cape buff vs XTP - 03/22/2018 5:02 PM

Congratulations to Mr. Hunt on two beautiful Cape buffalo. Most folks only dream of such things and you got two!

That said, I would never use XTP's on dangerous game. Seen too many failures of different sorts. XTP's are among the cheapest jacketed bullets, while good bullets are cheap insurance on what may be a many thousand dollar hunt. For an expanding bullet, give me a bonded Speer at the absolute minimum. From what I know right now, the A-frame would be my first choice for an expanding bullet. Although the Punch is my first choice overall. The Barnes Buster second, due to the smaller meplat. A good hardcast third. This is not an emotional decision for me in the least and I don't know why so many cling so obstinately to the old tech XTP.

A dangerous game bullet should NEVER, EVER do this:

Posted By: SacredCrows

Re: cape buff vs XTP - 03/22/2018 6:55 PM

 Originally Posted By: Craig44
Congratulations to Mr. Hunt on two beautiful Cape buffalo. Most folks only dream of such things and you got two!

That said, I would never use XTP's on dangerous game. Seen too many failures of different sorts. XTP's are among the cheapest jacketed bullets, while good bullets are cheap insurance on what may be a many thousand dollar hunt. For an expanding bullet, give me a bonded Speer at the absolute minimum. From what I know right now, the A-frame would be my first choice for an expanding bullet. Although the Punch is my first choice overall. The Barnes Buster second, due to the smaller meplat. A good hardcast third. This is not an emotional decision for me in the least and I don't know why so many cling so obstinately to the old tech XTP.

A dangerous game bullet should NEVER, EVER do this:



Was that bullet recovered from a dead animal?
Posted By: jamesfromjersey

Re: cape buff vs XTP - 03/22/2018 8:12 PM

Someone I know recently took a bison with one shot using a
50 caliber 350gr XTP...
\:o
Go figure...
;\)
Posted By: 45MAN

Re: cape buff vs XTP - 03/22/2018 9:47 PM

 Originally Posted By: sixshot
a good buddy of mine who has since passed away shot a Bison with my Ruger SRH about 15 years ago using one of my 370 gr cast bullets from a Ballisticast Mold that was about a 15 BHN. I think the load was 20 or 21 grs of 4227 so about 1000 to 1075 fps, some where in that range (guessing) The distance was about 20 yds as it was just a harvest bull about 2 years old. He shot it in the head, face on & Ron, the guy with him said it's hind legs kicked the belly so fast you could hardly see it.I think if the bullet had been going faster it might have failed, just my thoughts.

Dick


DICK: BIG LEAD BULLETS, AT THE RIGHT SPEED, CAN BE DEPENDABLE PENETRATORS AND KILLERS, AND HOLD TOGETHER. I THINK WE NEED A TOPIC ON APPROPRIATE SPEEDS TO GET BULLET INTEGRITY AND PENETRATION WITH LEAD BULLETS.
Posted By: jamesfromjersey

Re: cape buff vs XTP - 03/22/2018 9:57 PM

 Originally Posted By: 45MAN


I THINK WE NEED A TOPIC ON APPROPRIATE SPEEDS TO GET BULLET INTEGRITY AND PENETRATION WITH LEAD BULLETS.


Rey, Sounds good cause I remember reading things like "your pushing it to fast"......there are a lot of variables with cast bullets and for a new shooter this may be enough to go to jacketed.
A good explaination is in order and I`am NOT the one to give...
Posted By: sixshot

Re: cape buff vs XTP - 03/22/2018 11:44 PM

With any jacketed or cast bullet you are always going to have parameters, some are narrow & some offer a little more latitude but it's always going to be there trust me.
It's only when you get to the full blown solids that you take away the velocity factor & that's really what we've been discussing here for the last few days & it's been one of the very best topics we've ever talked about.
We know that about any jacketed or cast bullet can fail or succeed depending on 2 main factors, placement & velocity, the last one would also include penetration. If you get those you will declare that bullet a good one. It's almost always when we drive a bullet too fast that we get bullet failure. Seldom do we lose an animal because the bullet was going too slow.
Switching back to the premium solids plus 1-2 others it's almost impossible to drive a solid beyond it's capacity to work in a sixgun/fivegun. That's been proven for many years now & also recently with some the "up close & personal" tests done in Texas on some very large Bovines.
When you get into animals that big a "good" jacketed or a "good" cast can work if you don't over drive it but there's the kicker, most times it's either too much speed or in the case of cast bullets, the bullet is too hard, not too soft, too hard & it breaks apart because of overdrive.
Of the 25 elk that I've taken 13 were taken with handguns, I've also taken 1 bull moose, several bears, some African plains game & probably triple digits on deer, lion, antelope, etc. Almost all were with cast, not hard cast & not fast loads with a few exceptions. One bear with a MV of about 1600 fps & 1 elk at about 1500 fps MV, everything else in the 1200-1300 range with complete pass throughs. Most were double lung if possible, some were through both shoulders, 3 deer were length ways.
This is what I know for a fact because I did it over 50 years.
Once you get to the megatron animals I firmly believe they require more attention because from what I've watched & heard over the years they become almost bullet proof, regardless of bullet structure or placement. They have so much oxygen in their blood stream & so much mass that killing them takes time & time can be a killer on either end. Choose your bullets wisely.....

Dick
Posted By: glynn41

Re: cape buff vs XTP - 03/23/2018 1:25 AM

well spoke sixshot
Posted By: dhom

Re: cape buff vs XTP - 03/23/2018 9:50 AM

When you ask about cast bullet velocities, you have to be very specific on the application and bullet hardness.[ or lack of] My simple rule over the years has been cast bullets 1100-1300 fps and drive jacketed bullets to the top speeds the manufacture list. These are where my parameters start. Next you have to match specific applications. Sure gives me a lot of reason to reload!
Posted By: Raptortrapper

Re: cape buff vs XTP - 03/23/2018 2:30 PM

 Originally Posted By: 45MAN
I THINK WE NEED A TOPIC ON APPROPRIATE SPEEDS TO GET BULLET INTEGRITY AND PENETRATION WITH LEAD BULLETS.


I think someone had a similar idea to this in the first post at the top of page 10 of this thread. Seems like a GREAT IDEA!!
I'd be interested for sure!!
Posted By: jwp475

Re: cape buff vs XTP - 03/26/2018 11:25 AM

 Originally Posted By: Gregg Richter
 Originally Posted By: Whitworth
 Originally Posted By: jamesfromjersey
 Originally Posted By: Coloradoyaler


I spoke to Hornady and they recommended their XTP-MAG bullet as did Freedom Arms. Both said they?d shot plenty of buffalo with them.

I had one of the gunsmith at Freedom arms tell me the reason they quite making bullets or should I say selling them is Hornady was making a great bullets for their 454's. IE: 300 xtp Mag.



I know Freedom Arms gets ton`s of feedback from handgun hunters on how their guns and ammo they used had performed and found it interesting to read the above... I would think for a company like FA`s to make any recommendation they must done a little research into the numbers found them positive before they would commit... This does not mean the XTP is a perfect bullet because there is no such thing but for the 20 failures someone had with XTP`s...there is someone else with 20(maybe 19) successful hunts... As with people...you can find a little good in everyone if you look hard enough
;\)
;\)
\:\)
;\)


I would question the veracity of that claim as frankly the old FA bullets were of a much higher quality than the XTP. I?m sorry they are no longer produced. I have to call FA this week and I?ll ask them about why they no longer produce this bullet. I will bet it was a financial decision.


Whit,

Years ago when I ordered my FA .454 I also bought several boxes of their lead nose bullets.

I used them on two bull elk (one went down on first shot, one took two, different shot angles) I basically was satisfied with that bullet but didn't think it could walk on water.


When WapitiRod built my .475 (BTW I miss him) I developed a load with 400 grain XTP mags and consequently killed two bull elk and four mule deer bucks. Again I was satisfied and maybe I do think this bullet is special.

By being a member here for years I have learned a lot from others and probably would not have chosen the XTP for Cape Buff. As others have posted here, we are all learning here. I have even seen you, Whit, going to jacketed bullets and using scopes!

Thank you to Mr. Hunt for shedding "new" light on the XTP and CONGRATULATIONS once again!

And the learning goes on...
\:\)




I believe that I remember you shot a deer with the 400 grain XTP in 475 and the bullet did not exit nor did it expand. A 400 grain .475 should exit a deer from any angle.
Posted By: sixshot

Re: cape buff vs XTP - 03/26/2018 4:53 PM

John, isn't that the amazing thing about bullets! On paper we always get instant feed back, good group or bad group but on game it takes a long time really to truly trust a bullet to work every time we drop the hammer & think we have good shot placement.
These 2 Cape Buffalo that Mr. Hunt shot has all of us in an up roar in a good way. They both worked all almost all of us would have bet the farm against it.
My friends Fallow doe with a hard 260 gr. Fa bullet from his FA 454 that didn't even exit. Max's 400 gr. XTP that didn't exit on a deer, they could both make that shot again & shoot through those same animals length ways with ease the next time around, go figure.
That's what makes it interesting & frustrating at the same time, we just can't duplicate or explain what happened. You just can't make this stuff up yet we share it to gain experience & I enjoy reading it.
I have learned, and I'm stubborn, that those big heavy solids are the very best if you are hunting megatron's. I don't include moose or the big bears in that group myself, just my opinion. I totally believe my cast bullets would handle any bear out there but I wouldn't over drive them or run them extremely hard (BHN)
I think a hard (BHN) bullet at close range would be trouble.

Dick
Posted By: Whitworth

Re: cape buff vs XTP - 03/26/2018 6:29 PM

 Originally Posted By: sixshot
Max's 400 gr. XTP that didn't exit on a deer, they could both make that shot again & shoot through those same animals length ways with ease the next time around, go figure.


That wasn't me. It was James' deer. Just reported on what I saw happen. The ratio of what works to what doesn't is what interests me the most and when I can narrow the margin of error down to an almost insignificant level of failure, I think we are onto a really good bullet.
Posted By: sixshot

Re: cape buff vs XTP - 03/26/2018 8:49 PM

Max, my mistake, I thought it was a deer you had shot. Anyway, that's a strange result with that big bullet.
What bullet are you referring to?

Dick
Posted By: Craig44

Re: cape buff vs XTP - 03/26/2018 9:01 PM

I was going to offer to test the 400gr .475 XTP in SIMTEST but it appears to be discontinued.
Posted By: Franchise

Re: cape buff vs XTP - 03/26/2018 9:40 PM


Here's a bullet testing result that was printed in the October 2000 issue of The Sixgunner
Posted By: Gregg Richter

Re: cape buff vs XTP - 03/27/2018 5:14 PM

Thanks Franchise for posting this. Good stuff if ok'd by JD and coming from Bob Baker (Freedom Arms).

However I doubt this info is acceptable to a certain ? here with a letter name.
\:D
Posted By: Zee

Re: cape buff vs XTP - 03/27/2018 6:03 PM

 Originally Posted By: Gregg Richter
Thanks Franchise for posting this. Good stuff if ok'd by JD and coming from Bob Baker (Freedom Arms).

However I doubt this info is acceptable to a certain ? here with a letter name.
\:D


You would be incorrect. Pretty much all the information is there. Except pics of the animal. But, there was at least a relative description. We can assume the Muzzle velocities were the same. Not sure the impact distance on the second bullet as the first was stated. So, we can?t determine the impact velocity of the second bullet.

See? Information isn?t that hard.
Posted By: Franchise

Re: cape buff vs XTP - 03/27/2018 6:10 PM

LOL..I just posted the picture to show that testing was done on animals and gelatin. It showed us that the .475 XTP is a tough bullet..that's why I showed what recovered bullets look like when you increase their impact velocity by 400 - 500 fps...this version definitely doesn't fall apart
Posted By: Franchise

Re: cape buff vs XTP - 03/27/2018 6:13 PM

The testing was done in 2000 so nobody should be suprised by any testing done today. This is just what to expect from this version
Posted By: Buttermilk

Re: cape buff vs XTP - 03/27/2018 6:59 PM

Based on my only animal shot with the 454 Casull and a Hornady 300 XTP bullet (factory load), I'd say the 300 XTP is a very hard and tough bullet.

(Not that a Hog is a tough brute...)
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