bullet failure

How do you guys define bullet failure??

If the critter was shot properly (define "properly"), but lived or died slowly.

Edit: "Bullet failure" can sometimes be confused with "user error". As in using an expanding bullet but expecting hard cast results, or vise versa.

:popcorn:

In my opinion, a bullet can be terminal in effect and still fail. Examples of bullet failure are expandables that don?t open, or cup and core bullets that experience core separation. Cast bullets that have their noses wiped off or that fragment are also failures. Bullets that vear off course or tumble have also failed. Just because it kills the animal doesn?t mean it didn?t fail as designed to perform.

Mainly due to military FMJ use, some rounds are designed to tumble, so that may not be technically a failure, if that's the design. So, I'd say it fails if it does not perform as designed. That's pretty much along the lines of Whit's above post. The confusing part is that a bullet failure can result in an ideal game kill. Sometimes an autopsy is required. It has been an issue for a long time. Al Georg placed a brass screw in the nose of a hollow point bullet and killed a bear with it. Later, folks milled slugs from architectural bronze, and other metal, to increase performance. It is a fascinating subject.

To which I?ll add: Or does not produce the intended result.

Reason I add this is because I often use bullets for that which they were not designed. And get the precise results I want. Which means there was no failure in my book.

For example, I use Hornady A-Max and ELD-Match bullets almost exclusively for bottleneck cartridge hunting bullets and get exceptional terminal performance from them. A purpose for which they were not designed. They often over expand or separate, but produce adequate penetration and better terminal performance than many ?hunting bullets? I?ve tried. So, for my purpose, they did not fail.

Another example, is that I often push Hornady XTP bullets WAY above their velocity threshold and get over expansion and separation. With excellent terminal performance. They did not fail to give me the results I wanted even knowing I was pushing them beyond their design limitations.

So, there are manufacturers standards and the end users. Failure can be subjective sometimes.

Good post!

A bit like obscenity I think. Ya know it when ya see it.

The flippant response is "One that doesn't go where I want it to go" while the personal response is "One that leaves lead particles in the food I feed my family"

As Zee points out, lots of of ways to measure success/failure

Yes to this, but what may be good performance on smaller game i might not use on a moose or elk and/or dangerous animals. One thing i consider abject failure is when two identical bullets from the same manufacturer is shot into the same animal and one seperates and fails and the 2nd fails to expand at all. This i find troubling.

Are you talking about a particular red stag that weighed in around 350-lbs give or take? 300 grain Mag XTP from a .45 Colt??

I think I explained my definition in a prior post I made about load testing ie Bullet failure. Early in my reloading career I was experiencing Bullet failure when I use to rifle hunt. Yes I got burnt with the sexy looks of the Ballistic tips shooting the wrong load recipes which resulted with a couple of wounded animals that i am not proud of. The bullets fail to expand properly. This why I don't shoot per say cookbook loads before I do I use you guys as a reference and then I decide if it's worth my while to invest time in. You have to put the proper amount of range time in

Well hello, Captain.

;-)

Hahaha. Yessir, one if my favorite commercials btw!

This is how I look at this subject and this is just my personal opinion. First I don't believe in 1 type/style of bullet for all game. I match each and every game animal with a specific bullet/load/caliber. Bullet failure to me is when my bullet cannot get to and destroy the vitals of the game animal that I'm hunting. I think some of what we consider bullet failure are just poor initial bullet/gun choices....I don't think that a 400 gr solid from my 416 Barnes is a good choice for deer, and neither do I believe that a 125 gr BT from my 300 Whisper is supposed to reach the heart of a Hippo...it would be hard for me to blame the bullet if I made the above poor choices....just me.

What if our expectations are different than the designer? Reaching the vitals and causing sufficient damage is a good basic definition, but we may want pass through penetration as well. We're a special and peculiar bunch, so, as students of the gun and ammo, we may want much more than bullet manufacturers will design.

If I?m looking at a dead animal, the bullet did its job.

That's simple a bullet that fails to make it to the vitals because it has destructed in muscle tissue and bone. Seen it on couple of elk severe soft tissue damage but no penetration to the vitals.

I love you.

Actually yes. Thats but one of a few examples but the prime example.

Ok, so ill ask if the animal is dead but only because you got lucky and a bullet fragment happened to cut a large artery coming out of the heart or lungs but u absolutely know u woulda lost the animal had u been an inch further back? Sometimes luck over shadows the bullet not working as advertised. I go back to the local in liberia comment. Ok so you made it but would you do it again?


In the case of the bullets whit posted, its only dead cuz of another bullet shot, actually a vastly superior bullet.

Racksmasher, how many bullets do you allow to kill the animal, especially small to medium sized game?

Zee, I had no idea, lol!

I think blindly accepting a kill as a bullet success might be inviting disaster. It could be happenstance and a little luck that was more responsible for the demise of the animal than the bullet doing its job as designed. This is why we perform necropsies on all the animals we kill. I just have to know what happened....

Mark, I never had to shoot a Deer twice with a Handgun, I like Hornady bullets, they work for me, I will be testing the 300 grain XTP in my new Freedom next week on our little group hunt.

I HAVE NOT DECIDED WHAT I WOULD DEFINE AS BULLET FAILURE BUT I DO KNOW THIS: WHATEVER BULLET FAILURE MAY BE, THE RIGHT BULLET AT THE CORRECT VELOCITY LOWERS THE CHANCES OF BULLET FAILURE. SIMPLY THAT IT KILLED MAY NOT BE ENUFF AS YOU MIGHT NOT BE SO LUCKY NEXT TIME.

PICTURES PLEASE!!!

Between Jim, Matthew, Cole, and I, we will have a bunch of pictures...All different guns (types/styles), various bullet configurations, and all different sizes of animals....from 22 mag, 35 Remington, 44 Mag, 50 AE, 500 S&W, and a 450 Alaskan...all pistols, all day

I have stood over a dead animal killed with one shot. Opened it up and surveyed the internal results and not liked what I saw. The bullet worked, the animal is dead, but maybe I didn?t get the amount of damage or expansion/penetration I wanted. Ultimately deciding to use a different bullet next time or at a later date.

A recent example, I have been using the 165gr Sierra HPBT-GK in .308 Win to cull a bunch of deer and pigs the past couple months. They have all died but the internal damage or the recovered bullets aren?t what I?m looking for.

Not pleased with the bullet and could say it has ?failed? in that respect. But, it?s killed everything I?ve shot with it. The end result? I will use up the loads I have left.........and switch to the ELD-Match. A bullet not designed for hunting but that gives me ?better? results.

Waste not. Want not. Got the Sierras loaded. Just don?t like them.

You took the words......................

pretty much how it goes

you have all heard the expression "match the bullet to the game". After 35+ years of hunting with a handgun I found that by following those words the chances of bullet failure or lost game go down tremendously....todays hunting bullets are of a pretty basic design.... Some differences here and there... Some good and some not so good...About 10 years ago I compared recovered XTP vs Swift bullets... The better bullet? Swift...However, from the size and weight category of the animals taken, the XTP`s did what they were suppose to.... Match the bullet to the game and put one in the kill zone and you should have you trophy...

Well, I been giving eyes to you for awhile now. You just haven?t been paying attention.

:-)

I thought animals other than deer were on the menu as well. Il used em on elk, the elk was dead. The fact it took 3 thru the vitals lead me to assume it was a failure despite looking at a dead animal. Good luck on you guys hunt next week and i look forward to seeing the results.

and so it goes..... the more you hunt...the better you know what a bullet can and cannot do.....I found one caliber that I could cross the line to where performance suffers is the .41...I`ve had great results especially with the a-frame, but twice I used them on large boar that overwhelmed its capabilities. Both animals died but after more shots then I was comfortable with.. A mistake on my part by not matching the bullet to the game...

Every time that I've ever had an issue is when I mismatched the appropriate bullet/gun combo to the game that I was hunting.

I used to be happy with a simple dead animal. Years ago. Now, I want to know how. I want to know why.

My thirst for knowledge has ruined my simple hunting days. No longer a hunt. They are quests for understanding of terminal performance.

The science of death intrigues me. What caused it. How to cause it.

Such is my lot in life.

If the A-frame was overtaxed, consider how much worse it would have been had you used an XTP!

Im the same. I had two bellweather events that caused me to start investigating. One was a rifle elk hunt that went bad with a good shot but a trusted bullet went to hell and turned 90 degrees and became a long long two days to recovery. The other was another elk hunt with my 454 and instead of a crushing blow a trusted bullet led me on a long long chase that led me on a long long chase and got off the mountain 20 hrs later. Dead animal but dang, not good.

I've held off on this one, wanting to read some of the responses from others because this one can get very complicated & also quite heated.
We all go off of personal experience, the more experience, the more chance for failure, success & opinions that can be flexible or maybe 100% based on just 1 or 2 shots. If they were good it's a great bullet, if we made a bad hit or missed it was the bullets fault, just human nature.
I personally don't think there are any bad bullets, I just think they can be used for the wrong situation & bad things happen. I've heard stories of the shot being absolutely perfect yet the animal escapes & is never recovered, how do we know it was a perfect shot if we don't find the animal.
Use any bullet outside it's parameters & bad things "might" happen, sometimes we get lucky & it still works out. I'll give you an example.
Back in the very early 70's me & a friend were deer hunting & we had tied our horses in the shade next to a nice little Beaver pond (full of trout) & started hunting a stand of Quakeys. We spotted some deer but didn't shoot anything & it started to get dark. On the way back down I happend to look up on the skyline & spotted a spike bull elk. If he hadn't been sky lined I never would have seen him.
I had an elk tag in my pocket but was packing a Ruger 6mm with 85 gr. Nolser Solid Base bullets because I was deer hunting. I had won the rifle the year before in a big bull elk contest, it was one of the very first flat bolt 6mm's ever made.
The shot as I remember was about 80-90 yds steep up hill & I held on the base of his throat. At the shot he disappeared & neither of us could tell if I had hit him or if he had ran. we walked up hill but now it was dark so we walked back down to where I had shot from & looked again.
We spread out & went back up & my buddy Gene stepped right on his legs. That Nosler Solid Base, against all odds had killed that bull, wrong bullet, light caliber & a full blown lucky shot.
So, what makes a bad hit, many things. Bad shooting, wrong bullets, too far away, sometimes too close & the bullet explodes on impact. Bad angles can do it, hunting isn't written in stone, once we pull the trigger lots of things can & do happen, some are good & some are bad, some can be explained, some can't, some are imagined.
Then there are times the perfect bullet is used & put in the perfect place but the animal actually over powers the bullet, yes it does happen. You do everything right & still it takes 3-4-5 shots or more on a Cape Buffalo, Elephant, Lion, etc & still the animals soaks up bullet energy long enough to put up a fight, there's enough oxygen in their system to stay up & be a danger for a long period of time. Nothing is guaranteed in hunting, nothing.

Dick

Well said Dick

Nope. Nothing is guaranteed. I had a run of 4 elk just awesome performance, then a run of bad performance. Started video nearly all my hunts so i could know with certainty where the bullets hit.

Thanks Mark, well said MR Thompson, the great thing about this thing we do is the experience and knowledge we learn from others, still after all these years I pick things up from you all!

What's the worst failure you guys ever had? Or maybe it isn't possible to know if the bullet wasn't recovered??

Earlier in this thread I posted photos of two Mag XTPs we recovered from a red stag. One completely grenaded. There have been others.

Yeah I saw that one. That's what prompted my question. That was amazing.

That was actually an error on my part. Here is the second Mag XTP that grenaded. The other photo is what is left of a 500 grain LFN from Cast Performance that shattered on the onside shoulder of a downed water buffalo.

Are water buffalo that tough, or was the bullet to brittle? Cast Performance makes good stuff! Surprised their bullet would do that, but like anything else, accidents happen.

Probably a combination of the two. The stars clearly aligned for that bullet's brand of failure.

As a side note, water buffalo, like their cousins the Cape buffalo are thick-skinned bovine. Takes more to punch through them than it does a bison, watusi, etc. The skin is like an added layer of tough.

Exactly..................

DT say`s it to perfection....

Here's another example of what could have been a bullet failure but luck played some role in success.
This was many years ago when my daughter was just 14 years old & she had her first elk tag. We were down in some deep, thick timber & had left the horses at one of my old camp sites because I knew the elk would be feeding close by in an open meadow.
They much have heard us walking in the crunchy snow because they made it into the timber & we could see them milling around waiting for the lead cow to take them out. I spotted the bull & had her kneel down quickly with her 308 & pick a spot & at the shot the bull buckled, took a couple of steps & fell.
As we walked up to him about 20 yds in front of us was a 2" Quaky limb with a bullet hole dead center through the middle of it, if it had been just a bit higher or lower it would have deflected & been a complete miss. The bullet hit the bull through both lungs but had tumbled yet still made an impressive kill. Sierra 150 gr.



Dick

Been Living in Alaska most my life. I started hunting with a handgun in the late 80,s and have been lucky enough to take Bear, Moose and Caribou with the 44-454-475L.
Started with 44mag factory soft points and had ok results on caribou when hit in the ribs but had my first bullet failure with a front quartering shot the bullet cup and core came completely apart.as I stated Reloading I went with the 300ga XTP mag in my 454 and had better luck until I pushed the bullet past 1500fps and then had the same results as the soft point 44,s. After reading books and some postings on the web by Max I started down the road of Hard Cast bullets. have not been able to recover a bullet so far to see how the bullet survived but all animals hit made it to the freezer.

I`ed rather be lucky then good anytime.....

Luck is a byproduct of being prepared.

...most of the time.

shot properly is always a sticking point. you read it all the time . "i shot a buck with this gun/caliber/load combo right in the heart, it ran off with little to no blood and i never found it" then prove to me you hit it where you said. not animal no proof. when we are talking deer sized game they are not hard to kill. but like some have said what performance are YOU looking for and are YOU satisfied with.

Honest question. This is a 165gr Sierra HPBT-Game King that killed a 125lb pig at 177 yards quartering away last week. The round entered the back of the ribs, broke the off side shoulder bone, and lodged under the hide in the off side neck. Dropping the pig on the spot.



Bullet failure?

Not to me..that's what I'd expect from that bullet...if it were a Partition, an A Frame, a Oryx, a Weldcore, or an X Bullet...Yes....an unbonded, fragile bullet, this is what I'd expect

What did you expect from that bullet? I use the 165 G.K. spitzer as the H.P. doesn't shoot well for me.Never recovered one from a deer yet,have recovered the deer.

I would say it worked. Dropped the pig instantly, so it did what I would have INTENDED it to do.

Don't know if that is HOW that bullet is designed to perform, but nonetheless, the critter died quickly, so I'm good with it.

I will never be disappointed in a bullet that quickly kills a critter I shot.

Well, some here would say that it is a failure because it isn?t a picture perfect mushroom, retaining most of its weight and exiting the animal.

It separated in some regards. It fragmented in others. It failed to hold together after bisecting the cardio vascular system, breaking heavy bone, and lodging under the skin on the off side.

It doesn?t look pretty.

Therefore, to some. It failed.

I present to you the state of our expectations. Unacceptable.

A dead animal with a shitty looking bullet.

Here we are.

Some would say failure. Others would expect that. Its not a failure but should give pause as to how big an animal one should expect good results. Theres many contexts. Deer and hog bullets? Elk/moose, large bovines, elephants are a compeltely different set of expectations. I for one have been on record for years saying i didnt care if a bullet exited. Never have. In a revolver that relies more on weight for penetration especially if im gonna use it on bigger critters, i do want it to hold together. Its not an argument but a legit question to ask, would that result be good if a shot was at 50 yards (more velocity) on a pig 2x that size. They certainly do run that big in your neck of the woods. Would that be adequate on that size hog if it were quartering to you and you had to go in the front point of the shoulder. Lots of hypotheticals but thats the fun of discussing it here. Dead-yes, unacceptable-hardly, raises questions about other scenarios-certainly. No harm no foul.

While I play devils advocate and badger some for their ill-fated expectations and and presentations..............I?ll be switching bullets after these run out.

I can play good cop / bad cop with the best of them. I think you haters are off your rocker and poorly represented. While judging and switching bullets of my own accord and accordingly.

What a fun world we live in.

This is good stuff!!

Have I written books? No.
Have I killed thousands? No.

I research what is in front of me at the time and I do it more thoroughly than some.

Hard cast? I better hit a support structure.
Expandable? I better go for soft tissue with velocity.

I may have been born yesterday. But, I?ve been up all night.

Well said, i just prefer the expandable thatll do both. Thats my ideal. If i dont have any otf those, then i make my compromises.

I certainly am not trying to start an argument here, just stating what I do.

I use hard cast in my revolvers, but I shoot behind the shoulder. My wife and I hunt in order to fill the freezer, so we try not to waste much meat. Therefore, we avoid large bones if we can. Hard cast bullets hitting soft tissue still hits like a freight train. I've not shot a lot of critters with hard cast, but the ones I have shot have folded up right where they stood, or very close by.

I shot a deer on a high shoulder shot once, or what I THOUGHT was a high shoulder shot, and it was a disaster. Only deer I never found. Saw it run off with a broken leg, and swore I'd never do that again. After that, it's been behind the shoulder on everything.

I know the shoulder shot works for a lot of you guys, but I'll keep putting hard cast behind the shoulder. It's what works for me, and what I have confidence in.

I never want to sway one from their personal experience and convictions. I express what I see before me. And weigh it against science and reality.

From what I?ve seen, I have been able to eatright up to the proverbial bullet hole when using cast Bullets at reasonable velocities. There is little blood shot or temporary cavity damage as they tend to run at a slower velocity than jacketed Bullets.

They are heavy and slow (in relation), causing a generous permanent cavity with a lesser temporary (hydrostatic shock and tearing of organs due to a higher velocity, expansion, from a large temp cavity) cavity than a fast jacketed bullet. So, I personally prefer to smack something that keeps them on their feet. Dropping them in the spot and affording the opportunity for the disfunctionate cardiovascular system to cause their demise before regaining their feet.

A high velocity jacketed bullet tends to leave more of a temporary cavity to surrounding tissue (blood shot) and therefore, more inedible meet ness the path of the bullet. So, I?d just as soon send that through the ribs in a lung or low heart shot and have more meat in the end.

If you are getting good results (terminal performance) and yield (meat left over) with the bullet, velocity, and placement you are getting..........DUDE!!!!!! Carry one!!

If it ain?t broke. Don?t fix it.

edge

Have any of the bear been brown bear or grizzly with your handguns?
'
Regards
Mark

Holy Molly..... I just realized that I`am not that good with the King`s English.....just no stopping "the masked man".....Last paragraph is classic....

Coloradoyaler
Hi Mark
I have taken two black bear and one grizzly with my FA 454 using 300ga. WFNGC not had the chance for a brown yet.

Thanks edge!

My definition depends on what the bullet does, not what the critter does. How quickly or slowly it expired is not even a factor. I have had complete and utter bullet failures that both scared and angered me but the critter was deader than fried chicken. I've also had bullets that did better than I hoped or expected but the critter still ran 100yds. The difference is what to expect the next time, or the time after that. In the case of abject failure, there won't be a next time.

For you, Mr. Z.

Not sure what your sarcastic post is trying to achieve. But, could you provide the Muzzle velocity or estimated impact velocity so we could learn more than a dead animal and a recovered bullet?

That might help us dertimine whether you had acceptable bullet performance as understood by some.

I just want to know the facts. Speed. Distance. Impact velocity. Parts hit. Recovered or not. End results.

You know. Simple facts. So we can all learn and not assume.

So, what was it you were trying to do with this post? Poke or provide?

Just trying to put my finger on what makes you say what you say sometimes, not really trying to poke you but you seem to go up and down on your responses as to being "likable," for lack of a better explanation. Sorta like you are more inconsistent than some bullets are.

Again, what happened to that post where you were saying negative things about this whole website?

Then speak plainly. Say what you mean and mean what you say.

I thirst for knowledge so we can all learn. Pretty simple.

Not sure what you mean about what happened to the post.

OK I am going to drop this now between us two; my apologies to the rest of our members for side-tracking.

I like craig44's wording: QUOTE: "I have had complete and utter bullet failures that both scared and angered me but the critter was deader than fried chicken. I've also had bullets that did better than I hoped or expected but the critter still ran 100yds."

Bottom line is there are so many variables here it keeps us all reloading!

Wow...

Anyway, I have a question...

I still consider myself to have limited knowledge compared to several on this forum. My years of experience are only a fraction of theirs. In my eyes, I'm extremely happy to have made a clean kill on any critter while using a handgun. I really don't have much interest in recovering the bullet, but rather am super excited to have added some meat to the freezer. Here's my question:

Did those of you with tons of head of game under your holster start off that way as well, and then "develop" a curiosity about bullet performance, or was it always there from the beginning?

Because of this thread, I'd like to start recovering bullets and learn more about the terminal performance.

I do my homework on bullets before selecting them for use in the field, but after that, as long as I have a dead critter after I hit the bang switch, I'm happy!

Perhaps I've been looking at this the wrong way the whole time.

Good question, rap. For me, I just started hunting; not really totally in to bullet performance, but I do remember that when I was reloading for my .30 Herret, there was the "new" Sierra .30 caliber "single shot pistol bullet" that had just come out. So this piqued my interest, kinda started me thinking more along those lines.

The "problem" back then (1970's-'80's??) was that bullet technology was old school (cup and core) compared to now, and there was not a suitable bullet for .30 caliber handgun velocities.

Thanks again to JD Jones; he was on his game and was testing bullets constantly for use in his JDJ line-up of cartridges.

So if you went with his recommendations you were OK.

Gregg, I think both those bullets look really good but I have to disagree on one thing. I care a whole lot about what the animal does, to me that's #1 after the shot. I'll worry about the bullet performance later but recovering the animal has to come first.
How could it be any other way? Since I use cast I almost never recover a bullet so I always have 2 holes & I think that's an advantage when hunting, especially with cast.
Those of you who use jacketed have the advantage of some expansion over my cast although I usually get some, I can tell by the exit hole.
I've said before that I never cast my bullets any harder than needed, here's one of the main reasons.
Back in the mid 70's when Handgun Silhouette first started up, guys were having a hard time knocking over the 200M Rams with their 44 magnums & cast bullets. So, they would go home & load hotter loads & the loads would still fail. This went on until guys were blowing cylinders & top straps, many of you will remember this.
The problem was 2 things, too much speed & too hard of a bullet, Bingo!! Slow down just a bit Junior & soften up that alloy & you gain a little bit of "Dwell" time on the target before bullet break up! Made all the difference in the world & guys started having instant success on the heavy Rams...or bone.
A big heavy cast bullet might start out a bit slower but it maintains it's speed better than a lightweight bullet after a short distance, trust me.

Dick

Didn't say I didn't care. I said it had nothing to do with what I consider a failure or not. The point being, a bullet can do exactly what I wanted and expected but the critter runs 100yds before giving up. Likewise, a bullet can be an utter failure and the critter drop on the spot.

Raptor.....i got into the bullet performance as i think most who have by having a failure. Some may decide its not a failure but after using a bullet that i had many successful hunts with. I made a great shot on cow elk and followed it with several more right in the boiler room. Elk continued to run. It died but the end result but at the end of a deadfall that i had to back out an elk up nearly 1000 feet of elevation over logs. It was hell and i saw my bullets that had served me well before suddenly not opened and bent and some blow to peices. It caused me lots of work. I decided i needed to study the issue. One i didnt know needed studying when hunting deer and other similiar game under the 200lb threshold. More questions were raised when guiding for oryx and then it got more
Critical when the discussion turned towards cape buffs. Thats how it started for me, at least.


On a side note. I Really think this is a great forum. I think 99% of people here would get along really well when they get to know each other. Lately things have gotten testy amongst people that would usually get along well. Or worse, have so in the past. I would hope everyone could be mindful of that fact and that when things get stirred up in the forum ?cauldron? theres usually someone stirring the pot with a stick. A stick That they have hands on both sides of while stirring.

I just have a real problem with folks wanting to alienate, divide and conquer over friggin' bullets.

Personally, I've always been fascinated by what bullets do to critters. Even as a kid hunting with .22's and air guns.

Since we're obviously not doing it right, which was gleaned from Zee's few hours spent as a guest on a several day hunt, I anxiously await the results of his buffalo cut `n shoot.

Funny that through all of these discussion the excellent Speer Gold Dot (Deep Curl) hasn't been brought up. I have taken one cow elk with that bullet & it worked great. Never used an XTP.
I know it's a bit softer that some of the other bullets, but still it's a dandy at 270 grs & at magnum velocities.

Dick

I often wonder that too. The Gold Dot/Deep Curl is a much better bullet than the XTP. I've driven them fast enough to blow apart but the core material always remains bonded to the jacket. The 270gr .44 is particularly good.

I've shot the .475 version of the Speer Deep Curl (400 gr) out of my 475/350 Rem Mag. The bullet so far has given great expansion and excellent wight retention. I'm pushing them over 1,800 fps...no problems...I've used the 400 gr XTP (475) out of the same pistol...I don't recover bullets on deer, but, in my case/opinion..velocity is king. JD Jones used to write in the Sixgunner that the 400 gr 475 XTP required at least 1,650 fps out of his 475 JDJ to reliably give expansion...they are pretty hard bullets (400 gr .475 XTP's)

400 gr Speer Deep Curl out of my 475/350 Mag Single Shot

Recovered 400 gr .475 XTP out of my 475/350 Mag Single Shot

How fast were the Speer/XTP bullets going out of your 475/350?????
Just ordered a cannelure tool from K.Knight with the intension of rolling a crimp groove on some Speer/Xtp bullets made for the 50AE to see how they perform from my 500WE... May turn out to be just right for deer/boar... When I run 400gr bullet in the 1200fps range
from my FA`s its gets your attention fast.... I don`t need that power for what I`ll be hunting but I also don`t want to leave the gun in the safe...

1,837 fps at about two feet from the muzzle...and as my video on The Handgun Hunting Forum on Facebook, it kicks just a little....hahahahaha

Every bullet type has some different characteristics in different calibers. Aframes in 45 cal are much tougher than in 44 cal for example. I think the 300gr 44 mag bullet is vastly superior to the 300?s in 45 cal. I think it was you, franchise, that was commenting that jd jones or some gun builder had tested the 400 hr xtp 475 bullet and found it started to reliably expand at around 1600fps which mirrors what ive seen and that is the 475 cal xtps are tough tough bullets and dont reliably expand at 480 and 475 linebaugh velocities. It may and it may not. Ibe had the exact opposite with 240xtp mag at 454 velocities. Some great mushrooms and great explosions. Ots an interesting science experiment for sure.

The .475 version is definitely tough..so is the 500 gr XTP FP in the. 500..The gentleman from SC who produces the B&M line of cartridges uses it in his custom rifles and vaves about them...he used them on Cape and Water Buffalo..every bullet is a little different

I shot that cannon of yours and you really don`t know what a hard kicking handgun is about until shoot something like that

I havent seen that. I would love too!

X2 for sure!!

Only critter I ever took with an xtp of any sort was a deer. Used Hornady cartridges right off the shelf through my very first hunting handgun-- a 460 S&W XVR.

Knowing what I know now, I would have bought a different revolver as my first hunting handgun, but that "scam bullet" did it's job that day. I went home with a dead critter. It didn't even take a step.

I believe that bullet was made so Smith and Wesson could say they had the fastest, biggest, baddest.... Whatever. And admittedly, I bought into it. But now that I'm older and more experienced in this way of life, in my opinion, the 460 doesn't really show it's ability till you get to the heavy bullets. My second 460 was a single shot, and it loved the 335gr hardcast, and hit like a hammer.

Anyway, guess I got a little long winded, but that's my limited experience with the xtp bullets, and it worked very well that day.

In some calibers and weights ive seen nothing but success out of xtps. Others as low as 50/50.

My 460 is at its best with 300-325 gr aframes for sure.

Tradmark-- this talking about my old 460, and hearing of yours, makes me want another one!! Maybe someday...

Haha. Maybe one day we shall tAckle
Nasty critters together. If u dont get another one i have 2!!

HAHA!!! That'd be fun for sure. And yeah, I'm sure I'll have another one some day. Got other irons in the fire right now though.

Oh yeah. I hear ya. Ive got many irons in many fires. I like all the shooting sports.

Sixshot, I agree with you, I didn't mean to give the wrong impression. My "best" shot is always a one shot DOA kill; and when I achieve that I feel that I did my job correctly.




Yeah z you deleted it (got scared?) or maybe Gary did. Good idea to get rid of what you posted as it could of gotten you banned IMO. Too bad someone didn't quote you on it.

It wasn?t me.

You are barking up the wrong tree about Zee.
He is not wired the way that you questioned/suggested to him concerning, "fear."

Im not sure what post was ban-worthy, i may not be paying enough attention. I dont mind controversial posts. I do think that anything said that leads to even better testing is valuable, as long as it is applied evenly across the board which is whysome look at some posts as an attack. AS LONG AS ITsa critique for improved information its good but should be applied across the board consistently
WHAT I Think we should all worried about is people who try and start controversy between members for whatever reason playing both ends against the middle. I think many of us have unwittingly been victims of this already😠

I have a recovered Speer Gold Dot 158 grain fired from my 357 S&W revolver at 1400 FPS that sows zero expansion, looks unfired except fir the rifling marks.

In my experience what the animal does after the shot may or may not indicate good bullet performance. I?ve seen deer run with the heart and lungs destroyed and the offside shoulder nearly blown off.

John, that's the crazy thing about bullets that I don't think we'll ever solve. You mention heart & lungs destroyed plus the off shoulder, so that bullet had to work extremely well, yet the animal runs off. That could just be that animals will to live, and the next animal drops on the spot from less performance, it happens & we can't explain it.
But I don't know if we can blame that on the bullet if it does everything you just described, I've seen the same thing but can't explain it either. It's the biggest X factor in hunting & probably always will be because of angles, impact, velocity, etc. just such a crazy mix of events once that bullet leaves the barrel & yet fascinating with the end result.
Just like the 357 Gold Dot at 1400 fps with no expansion, that bullet at that speed should give some expansion on a Potato!

Dick

Micheal has never used the XTP on buffalo of any kind not out of a rifle or handgun.

You summed tit up rather well.

I know Michael and he absolutely doesn?t and hasn?t used XTPs on any bovines. The CEB solids are his design.

I hope Bud Rummel chimes in, but he used the 500 grain .500 Smith XTPs and wasn?t happy at all with them on Bison and I believe water buffalo.

I will tell you without a doubt that if you go to the B&M website and look at the 50 Alaskan B&M and the B&M Long..he has used them on Wildebeest, zebra, Eland, and Giraffe...he recommends them for big bears and lion too. He (Michael) from Conway SC did 2 bullet reviews on Midway

I was mistaken on the Large Dangerous Bovines, but he sure likes the 500 gr XTP FP...

Yep..the article I read was that Layne Simpson was taking the 50 B&M Alaskan to Africa and thought it would work good on the Cape Buffalo..my mistake, but Michael from Conway, SC (owner of that rifle company) certainly likes the bullet..Hornady 500 gr XTP FP

I asked Micheal in bullet tech earlier to day. If you are a member then you can read his reply, I was rather sure that he didn?t use any XTP?s on any large game at all.

Well guys, I just want you to read his bullet review of the XTP on Midway...I don't know him....I was just going by his review....read it and see what you think

It sounds like we?re talking about different Michaels.

[img]I would like to add an update review for this bullet. In April I had tested the bullet up to 1875 fps in wet print with perfect results. I have since that time increased the velocity to 2100 fps in a new rifle cartridge--50 B&M Long. This has been tested in wet print with 100% success. The bullet holds together, expands, and penetrates to around 20" at this velocity. However, the main reason for this update is the success I had recently in Africa with this bullet on wildebeest, zebra, eland, and giraffe. I used my mid size 50 B&M and the original velocity of 1875 fps. This bullet performed perfectly and of all the soft point bullets used on this trip, the 500 Hornady really showed it's stuff! It literally knocked the socks off everything, perfect performance, bullet did not break up, or shed jackets, and retained 80% + of the original weight! We are very close to having a perfect .500 diameter bullet for velocities from 1500 to 2100 fps! This is a great choice for the big bears, lion, and any soft skinned dangerous game, and of course other game such as elk & Africa's big antelope. It is a hammer! Thank You Hornady! Was this review helpful to you? 27 5[/img]

I?ll put you in touch with him if you want to talk to him.

Sorry guys, it must be a different guy. The above post is from Michael from Conway, SC...he makes another review too...Sorry for the confusion

Even on the B&M website itself, with the 50 B&M Alaskan, there is very positive feedback on the XTP FP, but I do understand that it's not the inventor of those rounds, probably someone just trying to make the round sound more appealing

FRANCHISE: DID THIS GUY USE THOSE BULLETS IN A HANDGUN OR A RIFLE?

Rifle...that's what made me think that if they can hold up to rifle velocities, they must be fairly stout

I know a few guys from the site that have the 50 B&M Alaskan in single shot pistols..Gregg Richter has shot one...it's on Youtube

The 50 B&M Alaskan is a 50 Alaskan case necked down to .500

Hornady does not make a 500 grain XTP, they do make a 350 Grain XTP 50 caliber.

https://www.hornady.com/bullets/xtp#!/

Hornady only makes a 570 grain 50 cal rifle bullet.

https://www.hornady.com/bullets/rifle/#!/

JWP, yes they do make a 500 gr XTP FP, just google it....they've made it for years

I don't make this stuff up....go to the B&M site

You said XTP bullet and they do not make a 500 XTP in 50 cal.

Hornady does make a 500 grain .500 bullet for the 500 S&W but it is not an XTP

https://www.hornady.com/bullets/handgun/#!/

Your post does not say XTP in your picture of the article.

Show me.

Here's the bullet that you can't seem to find

I can't type this in the search bar on your computer so I screenshot it...this is from their webpage under 50 B&M Alaskan

No show me on the B&M forum. Hornady web site does not call them XTP?s as I linked the web site. Inorder to load them in a B&M they would have to be a component bullet.

Now what buddy?

Go to B&M rifles....look under the 50 B&M Alaskan round....and read this for yourself.

https://www.hornady.com/bullets/handgun/#!/
On the web site their is no 500 grain 50 cal XTP. It is listed as ? Traditional?.

Look for your self, their is no XTP component bullet listed.

They are a component bullet....go to midway USA....look under handgun Bullets....and you'll see they are MAGICALLY there

I followed your link...they are there

No they are not the bullet is 500 grains and is 50 cal. but is called ?Traditional? not XTP.

On the Hornady web site under Bullets for reloading is the link I posted, now what does Hornady call the bullet.

I can?t find that thread.

I can find 500 grain XTP 500 S&W loaded Ammo, but under component bullets for reloading they do not call them XTP.

https://www.midwayusa.com/product/770395...agnum-box-of-50

Yes they do!!!! Click on the above link

I'm not sure what you see, but I might not speak the Queens English, but.......

I see what Hornady calls them, not some vendor. I believe since Hornady makes and sells the component bullet that they know what they ar3. Apparently you refuse to read th3 Hornady Page that I linked.

Found the link on the B&M rifle page.... Got it.....It say`s everything you just posted......

why would Hornady call them XTP FP on their ammo, if they weren't what I say....good old JWP......

[img]http://www.handgunhunt.com/photopost/showphoto.php?photo=9635&ppuser=4067[/img]


I dont speak the queens english but i speak hornady?s


Xtp is a hollow point. These are softpoints

Maybe it?s 2 different bullets.

I guess Hornady themselves are wrong...Xtreme Terminal Performance.....I guess you think that ONLY means HP

Different Bullets??? You can't be that hardheaded

Of course it says the same since it?s a screen shot. I still can?t find that thread.

Look Hornady calls them ?TRADITIONAL? not XTP on their website surely you can?t be this hard headed.

http://www.handgunhunt.com/photopost/showphoto.php?photo=9635&limit=recent

http://www.handgunhunt.com/photopost/showphoto.php?photo=9634&limit=recent

This is getting pointless.....from the 2011 Hornady paperback catalog....this is the only heavyweight .500 bullet hornady offers....process of elimination tells you it's this bullet

JWP....IVE GOT IT RIGHT IN FRONT OF ME....I GUESS HORNADY CAN CALL IT WHAT THEY WANT, BUT YOU ARE THE ONLY PERSON ON EARTH THAT CANT SEE THAT THEY ARE THE SAME

Franchise I posted a link to pictures on the bragging board that you obviously didn?t look at. The pictures are from Hornady and the 500 grains is called Traditional and th3 350 grain is called XTP. I?ve looked at everything you?ve posted but you have not looked at what I?ve posted.

I saw it, that's why I said that they can call it what they want...it's the same bullet...I'm not arguing anything, but they call it XTP in their catalog...you're just arguing with me because it's me

All capitals does that make you feel more empowered? If they call them different names, why do you think they are the same?

Nope, has nothing to do with who you are, Hornady has 2 different names for them, logic would lead a logical person to be believe their is a reason they are not both called XTP. Only the 350 grain bullet is called ?XTP? the 500 grain bullet is called ?Traditional?

Argue with the box of component Bullets from Hornady.....looks like XTP to me

I can't wait to hear how the box is wrong now

I?m waiting to hear how Hornady web site is wrong.

Hahaha, YUP. Been there, done that ;-)

https://www.hornady.com/bullets/handgun/#!/

FRANCHISE & JWP: A HEATED BUT POILITE DISCUSSION. THEY DO NOT LOOK LIKE XTP's AS I DO NOT SEE THE SLITS IN THE JACKET CHARACTERISTIC OF THE XTP's (ON SECOND VIEWING THERE MAY BE SOME REALLY SMALL SLITS, NOT SURE).

BELIEVE IT OR NOT, THERE IS OFTEN A DISCONNECT BETWEEN THE MARKETING/LABELING GUYS AND THE GUYS THAT ACTUALLY MAKE THEM. WHAT I WOULD LIKE TO KNOW IS HOW THIS BULLET WORKS ON WHAT IN REVOLVERS IN 500 S&W, 500 JRH AND 500 WE. (JUST SAW A POST BY BUD RUMMEL ON BRAGGING BOARD UNDER PICTURE OF THE XTP 500 gr AMMO POSTED BY FRANCHISE, GOOD, BUT NEGATIVE, REPORT BY BUD ON THIS AMMO).

How about CALLING Hornady to find out once and for all? Hard to argue with a box though!

I think it's like debating GoldDot vs Deep Curl... You can find both in books and boxes and websites...but at the end of the day, they're the same thing.

Semantics. I know a number of big game handgun hunters who have used that Hornady factory load on big bovines and it has not worked well, including Bud?s report. Keep in mind Bud is a former PH out of Zimbabwe and he has a lot of big game hunting experience with both handguns and rifles. His opinion matters to me.

I absolutely am not at all arguing with Buds results, he obviously had less than great results..Some bullets work at times and some come up short..that's unfortunately life..it's each hunters choice to use them or not

Inconsistent performance can get you killed.

All XTP'S are traditional in my book..they are unbonded and lack a partition....that's traditional to me

Almost all bullets can be pushed to failure...missing and not being able to place shots properly can get you killed too...there are a lot of variables in failure

This is true, but we should all take the responsibility of reducing the variables that we can, and the bullet's integrity is a big one.

We can argue semantics till the cows come home, and call it what you will, but the question remains: Is it a good bullet or not? That, in a nutshell, is my only concern.

Truly that is what we all should want...I still think that we can improve on most bullet designs and construction...no a single thing to argue about there

Just got of the phone with Hornady and they do not offer the 500 grain XTP in a component bullet only in loaded ammo. The 500 grain offered is a traditional pistol bullet flat point with no serations to aid expansion.

No it?s not semantics, they are indeed two different bullets.

Just got of the phone with Hornady and they do not offer the 500 grain XTP in a component bullet only in loaded ammo. The 500 grain offered is a traditional pistol bullet flat point with no serations to aid expansion.

Doesn't matter what it's called. What matters is that it is not a very good bullet.

Exactly, doesnt matter semantics. Matters if its good or not. I oddly enough bought a few boxes from midway for my sons 500 jrh. Mustve bought at the transition and wish i kept the boxes. Never thought i would need to. Bought 5 boxes. 3 were clearly older and werent marked xtp and 2 were the newer packaging and labeled as xtps. If hornady doesnt know what to call them we prolly shouldnt be wasting time debating semantics but results on game.

In 475 speer labels soft points and hollowpoints all as deepcurls formerly known as gold dots. None of the name
Changes made them good
Or bad bullets.

If it doesn?t matter what it?s called then how is one to know the difference in the good one and or the bad one ?

It?s lije some think a magazine and a clip is the same thing when in fact they ar3 2 different things.
Accuracy matters in names and shooting.

They are the same bullet with a name change, we are talking about 2 different bullets that are made different.

XTP or Traditional, Ordinary, Extraordinary, Pathetic, whatever they call it, it ain't good. That's the only point I'm trying to make here. This is a thread about bullet failure, not nomenclature. Names perhaps do matter if there is some radical design difference, but from what I can tell, they used to call that bullet an XTP and now they don't. What doesn't change is the construction and performance of that bullet.

I still don't think Michael has used them on anything really big. I will call him to confirm.

What were the shortcomings of the 500 grain bullet when used on larger game?

Just got of the phone with Hornady and they do not offer the 500 grain XTP in a component bullet only in loaded ammo. The 500 grain offered is a traditional pistol bullet flat point with no serations to aid expansion.

They aren?t made the same, they do make a 500 XTP that they only market in loaded Ammo according to the Hornady employee that I spoke with.

Agreed. The first step in better Bullets is to identify short comings and then correct them.

I think several current bullet designs could be improved on, for instance, bond the XTP'S, put the cannelure lower on a frames to allow for hotter loading, make Speer bullets readily available all year, and bring back the Trophy Bonded Bear Claw in the 454 and offer them in other revolver rounds

For single shot folks, make north fork bullets softer so that they can expand more, and offer Trophy Bonded Bear Claws in a wider range of bullet weights...the only knock on a frames, and this is only when pushed hard, is sometimes you'll get a double mushroom..one in front of and one behind the partition..I'm a big fan of Woodleigh Weldcore and Norma Oryx bullets, but they're not perfect either

When Trophy Bonded Bear Claw decided to close shop, Jack and I almost bought it. But we were both very busy with our work and didn?t feel we had the time to devote to the business.

By golly, I missed most of this in "real time."

It's my Friday...I'm Happy 😉😁😆

The aframe changes i would make are very caliber specific nut none less than add 475?s and a heavier longer 50 cal and most of all is a heavier longer 41 to make use of the mass of space with their 210?s due to their short length. Basically you read my mind!

Well that would explain the varying reports and different results in ballistic gel when some say they dont expand and others have shown core separation in ballistics gel.

Jack and I nearly bought the Trophy Bonded Bear Claw Bullets equipment when the decided to close shop.

I have come to expect very little from Hornady bullets anyway.

Hey Craig... do you base this from what WE saw at the Bovine Bash??

No, I base it on what I've seen and experienced before that. Not saying they're all crap but I've seen more Hornady bullet failures than any other. They seem to be more lightly constructed than they should be.

I guess you had poor performance on animals you shot for which I could`ent blame you for feeling that way....

You experienced poor performance as well, so why are you still clinging to them?

The n 2008 I tested quite a few defensive bullets in the 45 ACP in +P loading in the 45 ACP. The Hornady 230 grain XTP penetrated well enough but fragmented and left a smaller frontal area than the other bullets tested. I shot them through 4 layers of denim and wet pack. About 4 or 5 years ago I tried the 230 XTP in the 45 Super at 1130 FPS. The bullet obviously change since the bullet lost little to no weight and expanded extremely well with excellent penetration.

The bullet definately changed for the better, but when I run out o& these will the new ones perform the same? Only time will tell.

Whit, Wish you could see my reload room and all the different calibers, makes, styles and weights of bullets I have already used and will continue to use on game from small to large.... I try and load a different make bullet in a different caliber every time I hunt with my handguns....I`ve used just about every brand out there on 100+ boar I`ve taken..."Clinging to them"??? I don`t know if I would put it that way.... More like "another reload component"... I do know where to draw a line when using XTP`s and for most of it they have served me well...Gees Max...I used the same bullet to take my Cape buff as you will use when you take yours

anyway......

Thanks Whit....that was a good question....

240 gr Speer Gold Dot 44 mag, 240 gr PMC Star Fire 44 mag, 400 gr Hornady XTP 475/350 Mag, 400 gr Speer Deep Curl 475/350 Mag, 350 gr Speer Uni Cor 50 AE, 370 gr Cast Performance 50 AE, 385 gr Remington CL 50 AE, 375 gr Barnes XPB 500 S&W

125 gr Nosler BT 30/221, 100 gr FP 327 Federal, 300 gr Hornady 376 Steyr, 300 gr Nosler Accubond 376 Steyr, 350 gr Hawk 416 Barnes, 350 gr Speer Mag Tip 416 Barnes, 340 gr Woodleigh Weldcore PP 416 Barnes

Left to right: Cast Performance 525 WLN, DT 320 WFN, Rimrock 440 WFN, CEB 340 grain solid, 300 grain Punch, 380 grain Punch, 420 grain Punch, 300 grain CEB solid......none recovered.....

Hahahahaha! Hahahahaha! Hahahahaha!

Ok, I don't have a dog in this, but that was funny!!!

Whit is a revolver guy, I'm a single shot guy. Whit was always a big Hardcast guy, I like jacketed bullets..I show recovered bullets, he shows a blank screen showing complete pass thru...it's just a rib...the history makes it funny

I gave Whit lip about having to shoot animals several times, he gave me lip about shooting hand rifles...just friendly ribbing

Yeah, I got it when I saw it. I know you two well enough to know what was going on. That was good stuff.

Yeah, it's all in good fun -- the way it should always be.

That XTP looks pretty good there.

AND I THOUGHT IT WAS A LOUSY PICTURE

You should know me better than that Rey!

Whit, ya cant have pics of the cast bullets ya shot into animals when theyre running around still with them rattling around in the animals stomach like a spray paint can.

Hey, at least I connected -- that's got to count for something....

Yeah. Thats what bill clinton used to say

Somewhere I have the pellet that's all that's left of the 300gr .405WCF Hornady bullet that made a fist sized entrance wound on the shoulder of an 80lb doe. I had to brain her to keep her from getting up.

This used to be a 225gr .338 SST. Thought it 'might' be a good elk bullet but it only penetrated 11" in SIMTEST. Which is dismal but at least it's 2" better than the 300gr .45 XTP that separated. I guess the 185gr is just a varmint bullet.

How far was the Simtest from the Muzzle with that .338cal SST? Any idea the impact velocity?

Same question for the 300gr XTP if you can.

James, who makes that HPFB cast bullet you pictured?

Any more info on that you can provide? Cartridge? What did you shoot it with? Etc.

I like the looks of that one!

1267fps for the XTP.

The .338RCM was a Hornady factory load out of a 20" barrel. Never chronographed it.

Here's some of the Midway reviews on the .338WinMag version, which is advertised at 100fps faster. To me, these failures ring a lot louder than any of the successes.

"after reading some of the 1 star bullet failures reviews here, I decided to shoot some magazines with them. Now I now that is tough on a bullet, but I've done it before with smaller calibers so just looking at previous experience. Have to say at close range these bullets break up into powder, maybe Hornady should think about using less tin in the lead portion. I won't be using these for moose this fall, ranges will range from 30 feet to 300 yards? I have to believe the experiences of previous reviewers on poor penetration. Well the brass is good, I think I'll roll some old 250 gr hornady RN. and 4350"

"I used this ammo 3 years ago on a solo elk hunt. I had an angry 6 point bull run in at me stopping 30 yards away. I shot him in he shoulder and he ran about 75 yards and stopped. His side looked different but I couldn't figure out why. He had his back to me when I came up to him the second time. He turned to the right and I shot him in the same spot a second time. The second shot brought him down. When I walked up to him I noticed the hair was missing from around the wound. It looked as if the hair was shaved off in a star pattern. I recovered the second bullet inches under the skin. The first round exploded on impact. Not cool. The second round was flat like paper. This was my first bull and almost wasn't. It scored 317 3/4 BC. I went with a different ammo for my second bull, and that one only went 50 feet. Sorry guys, but never again will I shoot these no matter how low the price."


"Bullets seperated upon impact. Wounded 2 Gemsbok with solid shoulder hits and could not understand what went wrong, then took 4 shots to drop Blue Wildebeest. Upon skinning Wildebeest found shrapnel and seperated bullet housing. No penetration after contact with bone! Will never use again!"


Here's part of one from somebody happy with bullet failure.

"The bullet jacket was found stuck in the off side hide, while the core had exited. This was the only animal on which I didn't get full penetration. Would definitely recommend."

Thanks.
How far was the Simtest from the gun on both? That will help me estimate the impact velocity. Or at least, get an idea of real world application.

I use both of those bullets, by the way. So, the information is pertinent to me. Not asking to pick on you or personally ?attack?.

SST?s. that I have tried are way too soft for my liking and i?ll Never use them again on any animal larger than a coyote.

About three feet.



That's about it for me as well.

I have used them in a .25-06 with great results on deer.
I have used them in a .243 Win with less than pleasing results as it appeared to not expand as much as I like on deer.
I tried to load them for my .338 WM but couldn?t get the accuracy I wanted. So, I have a box and a half of the bullets I am trying to figure out what to do with.

I am not a big fan of crimp rings on rifle bullets. So, I usually stay away from the SST.

I won?t use them anymore in the .25-06 because I have a more accurate bullet now with equal terminal performance. And I won?t use them in the .243 Win because they were too tough for me.

Wow! Yeah.............I?m not likely to shoot an animal at 3 feet. That?s a little unrealistic for my application.

Thanks.

Anybody else see the crack pipe on this particular Midway reviewer's desk?

So, the first bullet "exploded on impact", but only knocked the hair off as though shaved and left a star pattern in the skin. From a .338 Win Mag?!? Shaved hair.........and left a star impact. Hmmmmm

So, he "shot him in the same spot a second time".

The second bullet.......that hit the same spot........only penetrated inches under the skin..........but yet brought down a bull elk.

If a .338 WM round can "explode" on impact and only knock the hair off with a tiny star pattern.........We need to be using .50 BMGs on elk.

Conversely, if the very same cartridge can bring down an elk after only penetrating "inches under the skin"...........we can all throw our hard cast bullets away. Who needs penetration!?!

Craig........I ain't pointing at you on this. I'm pointing at the conflicting and unrealistic information from that reviewer.

The flags are flying and they ain't range flags.

Just trying to get us to think.

Zee, this is the same reason why I copy and pasted the 500 gr Hornady review from Midway and screenshot the B&M rifles take on the bullet...they are good between 1,800 - 2,100 fps, but suck out of a pistol at much lower velocities ...there are some inconsistencies

That's why I've always said test bullets yourself. Unfortunately, some folks are not always honest...like "I hit em in the gizzard, and the bullet blew up" in real life, they couldn't hit the "gizzard" at 2 feet..LOL....

before anyone thinks I'm talking about them, that was just an analogy

Franchise, this is from the Hornady web site

50 cal 500 gr InterLock? Flat Point
Item #50105 | 50/Box
Delivering a Better Performance
Hornady Traditional and FMJ bullets are built with a rugged AMP? bullet jacket (Advanced Manufacturing Process) that clearly delivers better performance. The thin-plated full metal jacket offered by other manufacturers is easily distorted and often breaks or separates when the bullet impacts the target.

The Hornady AMP bullet jacket features virtually zero tolerance for concentricity and near-zero wall thickness variation, punching through targets without deforming or breaking.


Notice they call that bullet an interlock, which I believe is the bullet being discussed in your screen shot.

To be 100 percent honest, I truly don't really care what Hornady calls or labels there 500 gr FP bullet. I've held the loaded round and component bullet in my hand...they are identical twins. Either way, I think that they are using sheer weight and mass to try to make the bullet function properly. I have been unable to get the bullet to blow apart or fall apart at single shot pistol velocities. I do wish that it was bonded though...I need to order some 450 gr Spitzers (bonded) .500 from Fury Bullets to test...the 300 gr RN (bonded) 44 cals that I've tested in my Super Redhawk are pretty dang stout (I love em)

The distance is irrelevant. The impact velocity is what matters. It's a .338RCM out of a 20" barrel, not the WinMag, so it's going to already be slower. Do you really think that 100fps slower would make a difference? If it did, would you still want to use it? Do I want to shoot an elk at 50yds on a $10,000 hunt with a bullet that fragments at the muzzle? Or do I want a bullet that holds its wad no matter the circumstances? That 'should' be an easy one to answer.

I approach all this with an open mind and no agenda. I used to be diehard about cast bullets for everything but have since accepted that they are not without their shortcomings. I want a good bullet and don't give a rat's ass whose name is on the box. Fact is I've associated more bullet failures with Hornady than any other manufacturer. Sure, I've seen, had or heard of Remingtons and Federals fail too. I sold my .243 and refuse to use a standard cup & core bullet in the .250Savage because of it. This ain't 1950 and we don't have to put up with crap bullets.

Meh, I don?t defend a name for name?s sake. Not defending Hornady at all.

I was implying the impact velocity when I mentioned the 3 foot distance. Or maybe, I should have implied it better. Yes.......impact velocity is what is important. That?s what I?ve been on about all these years.

So, what do you estimate the impact velocity of that RCM at 3 feet?

BOY AM I GLAD I AM NOT A RIFLE HUNTER, TOO MANY OPPORTUNITIES FOR FAILURE ON THE DEALER SHELVES. WHEN I USE RIFLE, OR RIFLE LIKE, CARTRIDGES IN SPECIALTY PISTOLS IT HELPS THAT LOWER VELOCITIES MAKE A LOT OF ORDINARY BULLETS INTO PREMIUM BULLETS. ON WHITETAILS I HAVE NEVER HAD ANY PROBLEMS WITH WINCHESTER 150 gr FACTORY AMMO IN A 14 INCH .308 XL. WHAT WORKS IN JDJ's IS WELL DOCUMENTED. THE HORNADY .376 STEYR 225 gr FACTORY LOAD IN A 15 INCH XL HAS ALWAYS WORKED EXTREMELY WELL FOR ME ON DEER. WHEN IT COMES TO REVOLVER BULLETS, I ONLY HUNT WITH 45 CALIBER REVOLVERS, AND I STRIVE FOR DEAD CENTER SHOULDER SHOTS, SO I LOOK FOR BULLET INTEGRITY. I AM GOING TO MAYBE TRY TO HUNT DEER AND HOGS WITH A FA 357 MAG REVOLVER AND FOR THAT I WILL PROBABLY USE EXPANDING BULLETS AND THEN HAVE TO HOPE THAT THEY WORK.

Box says 2,750 fps (probably out of a 24in barrel)

So, maybe around 2,650 to 2,675 +/- fps from a 20in barre?

And honestly, that SST pic you posted looks pretty good to me actually. I wouldn?t consider that recovered bullet a failure.

Sorry for jumping in here so late but Max you got me thinking and if I were to add up all the recovered bullets from game and times it by......say 3 or 4 times.....that will give you the amount of projectiles that I never recovered.... Living where I am I cannot set up any sort of way to catch the bullets which would make it much more easier for me....Anyway, I agree with what Franchise wrote...ha hah ha.......

Hey Craig please forgive me as I did not forget about you

Maybe not but some will defend their pet bullet/brand to the death, so it seems.

Knowing how the box is so often very optimistic, I wouldn't bother trying to guess. Really doesn't matter anyway, referring to my point about shooting an elk at 50yds. The recovered weight was 134gr. It penetrated 11", whereas a .44Mag 330gr LFN penetrated 26". Whether one regards it as a failure or not, I wouldn't use that bullet on anything bigger than deer and I wouldn't hunt deer with a .338 so.....

I agree. I would not choose that bullet for elk hunting.

Deer/Pigs/etc.........I would without issue.

Just counted 62 recovered handgun bullets from downed game and if I use my "loose fitting" formula of multiplying that amount by four it comes to 248 bullets that I never recovered and may be up there with "Mariner 9" circling the earth.... I have a feeling that 248 is on the low side of the count....

Zee, The cast bullet you asked about is a 388gr. HP loaded over 14.0grs of HS-6 in 480 Ruger brass and shot from a 5 1/2"
Ruger Bisley.... The boar was around 30yds... This bullet was made by Dick Thompson with help from Glenn Swaggertt.... They gave me this load info after trying different powders and finding that the HS-6 load of 14.0grs gave the best velocity for this hollow point to work properly.. I believe a 0.5 grain increase caused the petals to shear off...

Thanks.

Zee, there is a very shallow gap between the 2 crimp grooves in that 388 gr cast HP that I make. For that reason I seat in the bottom crimp groove. Glenn crimps in the top crimp groove but you can shear off that small amount of lead between the 2 crimp grooves, many have had that happen. Plus it changes pressures.
Glenn has also shot that bullet completely through a large bull bison with an exit.
Dick

I look forward to trying that bullet on game this year.

It?s amazing how James can ask such a simple question and have it result in such a loooong thread and passionate exchange. I have stayed on the porch so far on this thread as I am a relative small pup in the field of big dogs that are sharing their experiences and opinions.
Getting back to the original question I would define bullet failure as a projectile that either fragments prematurely without imparting a fatal wound on an animal or a bullet that penetrates without making a sufficient wound channel to quickly kill or immobilize an animal. Penetration is great but obviously controlled expansion will kill quicker if the penetration is adequate. It?s my preference that a bullet creates a larger than caliber would channel and always exits to create the best possible blood trail if the animal does not drop. Additionally, bullet placement and using enough gun are baseline requirements for properly judging a bullets performance. The rules certainly change as the game gets bigger. So another important rule is to properly match the bullet and cartridge to the game. I have taken about 20 whitetails with various 44 magnums using 23 grains of H110 with a 240 grain Hornady XTP. All have been pass throughs with 0 bullets recovered. For me this round works great on deer. I have shot 2 whitetails with SSK 320 cast bullets and both ran some distance with double lung shots. If I were to use the 44 Magnum on larger game I would consider the 320 cast or possibly a tougher jacketed bullet. I have shot about the same number of animals with the TC 358 JDJ that have also all been pass throughs. About 10 deer with the Speer 220 grain flat point and about 10 or so with the Hornady 250 grain Interlock. Again all pass throughs. Velocity of the 358 is about 2000-2100 at the muzzle. The largest animals I have shot with this bullet is a 600 lb Kudu and a 450 lb or so Blue Wildebeest plus a couple warthogs. All full penetration shoulder shots. The Kudu at 190 yards and the Wildebeest at 100.
I consider the Speer 220 flat point the best 358 deer bullet and the 250 Hornaday spire point a great bullet for larger game up to Moose or Eland. It is my assumption that if any of these 3 bullets were driven at significantally higher velocities they may fracture and fail. Again I am sure the rules are different for the big bovines.

billa, you bring some good experience to the table, well done! Any cup & core bullet can fail if it makes contact right off the muzzle with hard bone, etc at pretty much it's maximum design limits.
But look at all the buffalo Lynn Thompson killed with Hornady bullets when they were off a ways & also remember the 2 amazing Cape Buffalo our new member hammered with Horandy XTP's & the bullets looked amazing, how do we counter that, we can't! Remember, both were off a little ways.
Friend Ken O'Neil had taken some massive Bison & Water Buffalo using Hornady bullets & had no problems & he's done it more than once. This bullet thing doesn't come down to one success or one failure & call it good or bad. Same way with cast, shoot high velocity & hit heavy bone right off the muzzle & the bullet loses, slow things down a tick & you might see a different outcome. Crazy game we play for sure. Don't think there's one right answer for every situation.

Dick

billa nailed it

Wow.....we have a lot of incomplete test data....so I reckon conclusions were drawn by filling in missing data with emotion.

To me it's all about maximizing your odds of success and minimizing chances of failure.

I have no expertise with handgun bullet performance in big game hunting, so I hope you will not be offended if I comment but this thread and others like it are fascinating.

It may not be applicable by analogy, or relevant in any way at all, but these threads bring to mind things I have seen in another arena.

I suspect no one has more theoretical, laboratory testing, field testing and actual field performance experience, analysis and data than the military, particularly the Army, with bullet performance in living tissue. Ask any Army trauma surgeon and they will tell you that it is common to see bullets do very strange things in bodies; inexplicable things. Large city forensic pathologists who do autopsies on gun shot victims will say the same.

Maybe there will always be anomalies in this area. Maybe there are just too many and diverse factors that come into play. Maybe a reasonably consistent performance in a specific application is the best one can hope for.

Maybe these experiences with soft skinned humans bears no relevance to large wild game and I have just wasted your time.

Either way, it is a very interesting thread.

Craig44, I agree but does that mean only one bullet will work on every thing & others will fail, even on the smaller big game? I'm not defending Hornady, I don't use them either but an awful lot of people have taken lots of game with them with great success.
Some bullets need to expand quicker rather than later depending on the animal. One such animal is a Mountain Goat. I've skinned a fair amount of them for a Taxidermist friend & they are built deep but somewhat narrow for their size. I guess that's so they can navigate around cliffs & ledges where they live.
Anyway, on them you want a bullet that expands fairly fast & works it's magic quickly because as I mentioned they are deep up & down but not real thick.
Switching to something thick & compact like a big feral hog requires a different structured bullet that holds together longer & damages that animal all the way through like the bullets you guys mention or a good, heavy cast bullet. Hope this makes sense.

Dick

First off, I've really enjoyed this thread, but we could continue this discussion forever..there are no perfect bullets in my opinion, there are some that are better, but no where near perfect. Impact velocity plays a huge role in what bullets do just as what they impact. A bullet will almost certainly act differently at 100 yards than it will at point blank range. Plus, a huge factor in this is....90 - 95 percent of most handgun hunters are probably shooting deer and boar, with a few bears thrown in for fun..the guys and girls out west are shooting elk and pronghorn..point being, the majority of all the bullets we have discussed will work wonderfully on these animals if WE PUT THEM IN THE KILL ZONE 😉😬😜

Yup. Shot placement trumps all else.

I have used all of the major brands of bullets and lead ones I cast. Never had an issue as long as I did my part.

The problem with the military's experience is that it's limited to high velocity, non-expanding, pointy bullets. Even the handgun data. I know we didn't sign The Hague Convention but we adhere to at least the part that restricts the use of expanding bullets. So the usefulness of any data derived from the military is very limited.

EDIT: Weird things happen when you start a response and finish it two hours later.

Impact distance is irrelevant. A bullet is not going to act any different at 3' than it will at 300yds if the impact velocity is the same. The question remains, do you really want to go afield with a bullet you KNOW is suspect at close range? Where is the line drawn, 50yds, 100? I don't want to work in such a narrow margin. I want a bullet that works at both ends of my effective range.

We also have many reports of bullets failing on deer-sized game. So it is all relevant.



In any discussion of terminal ballistics, shot placement is a given. It also does not make up for bullet failure. I don't know why this keeps getting parroted. It's in essence tangent to the discussion here.

So why are you trying so hard to discredit reports of failures???

Craig, what animals have you, yourself, shot with a handgun, that you had bullet failures? Is it 1 time or 2, because I'm trying hard to find where "you" have had many failures with handgun bullets..seems like a lot of opinion with little handgun hunting experience

I don't understand this statement. Impact velocity is directly relative to impact distance. No cartridge can maintain the same velocity regardless of distance.

I take up to 100 Medium Game Animals (deer/pigs/etc) throughout the year in culling and crop damage prevention. I test and play with various cartridges and bullets for fun.

My list of preferred bullets I like and that have not failed me in effectively taking game are:

.224cal - 62gr TSX / 64gr GD / 64gr PowerPoint / 77gr SMK / 80gr A-Max
.243cal - 85gr HPBT-GK / 105gr A-Max
.257cal - 117gr SST / 115gr Berger HVLD
6.5mm - 140gr A-Max
7mm - 162gr A-Max
.308cal - 125gr SST / 150gr BT / 165gr BT / 165gr Tactical Bonded / 165gr HPBT-GK / 168gr A-Max / 208gr A-Max
.338cal - 200gr BST / 225gr DC / 285gr A-Max
.358cal - 158gr XTP / 180gr XTP / 200gr FTX / 200gr HDY RN / 250gr Interlock
.375 - 270gr HDY-PSP
10mm - 155gr HST / 165gr GD / 180gr HST / 180gr XTP
.423cal - 400gr RNSP-DG
.430cal - 240gr XTP / 325gr WFN-GC
.452 - 250gr XTP / 300gr WFN-GC / 350gr WFN-GC
.458 - 300gr HP / 500gr RNSP
.50cal - 440gr WFN-GC

I am probably forgetting some.

This is what I have/keep on my shelf that I?ve used and like. Some, I?ve used a lot. Some, I?ve used a little. But, all gave me the satisfactory results I look for in a bullet for medium gave.

There are others I have loaded but have not used yet. So, the list may grow. There are some I?ve used and disliked.

This is my list. It makes me happy. All are free to agree or disagree. But, they have worked for me. So, this is my list.

Exactly. Impact velocity is completely relevant. Bullets generally have minimum and maxim impact velocities in which they work.

This is fact wether we are talking about either end of the shooting distance argument. A bullet that works at 5 yards may be horrible at 500 yards and the opposite is also true.

There is a lot more science to this then what?s being given for ?facts? here.

And no I?m not defending any brand. I use a lot of different projectiles based on the intended use. No one projectile will do everything.

Not at all but how many failures are acceptable? Yeah, lots of folks have had success with the bullets in question. Does that nullify the failures? Remember what I said about improving the odds?



"Very little handgun hunting experience"??? I'm curious to know how you come that conclusion?



You're taking my comments out of proper context. Impact velocity is what matters. The distance is irrelevant. Zee wanted to discount the bullet I recovered from SIMTEST because it was 3' from the muzzle. The distance it was from the muzzle is irrelevant. The impact velocity IS relevant. In other words, if the bullet comes apart at 2700fps, that is useful information. So if you're starting with 3000fps muzzle velocity, then you can calculate at what range this will occur. Likewise, you know if you're starting at 2500fps, you will get less expansion/fragmentation. The ultimate point here being that that bullet is not going to get better at velocity higher than that achieved by the .338RCM unless you're shooting at very long range. And that I'm not going to hunt with a bullet that comes apart at the muzzle because whatever it does at the muzzle, it's going to do anywhere within 100yds.



I'm pretty sure that's what I said.

No I didn?t. The impact velocity retained at 3 feet is not applicable to my purposes for that bullet and my intended game. Try not to put words in my mouth. Please.

We already discussed how the retained velocity was my implied concern.

I have always been one to show interest in the muzzle and impact velocity. I think I?ve made that relatively clear.

Thanks.

The horse named opinion here is way too tall. And facts are skewed with very little data to come to a accurate and reasonable conclusion.

The only one I have ever seen post complete data gathered from any bullet is zee. He post pictures through the entire post shot process. Details range, load data, estimated impact velocity and so on. The only way I know Anything about him is through reading the forum posts.

Someone?s background doesn?t make up for lack of evidence in a scientific discussion. If you don?t look at this as a scientific discussion your more than likely missing a lot of facts.

You can?t have a quarter, half, 3/4 the data and draw a complete conclusion. You need every piece of data otherwise your stating opinion......and opinions are worth about zero.

People desire facts to help them make decisions on their hunting equipment....opinions you can get from the rookie at the gun counter...

Whether it?s cup and core, lead, bonded, solid or whatever all the major bullet makers produce an acceptable product if used within its limitations....and they all have limitations.

I would suggest settling down on the opinion and beef up on the fact finding....produce complete data....then you?ll have a leg worth standing on in an argument.

Yes, you did and you did that before I even shared its retained weight. Its relevance depends on what cartridge you plan on using it in and you never shared that. You discounted it due to the distance saying, "I'm not likely to shoot an animal at 3 feet. That's a little unrealistic for my application." You said you had shot them in the .338WinMag. Well, if you shoot anything at 100yds, you'll get what I got at the muzzle. I see you never bothered to answer my question about going afield with a bullet you know will fragment and lose half its ass inside 100yds. None of which really matters, as we all quantify "failure" differently.



All you have offered is criticism. The above is no different. We all know what Theodore Roosevelt said about critics. What do you bring to the table besides criticism? Sorry but your opinion of our opinion isn't really much at all. You speak in broad sweeping generalities. Whose information on what example is lacking? Maybe you just don't know enough to properly interpret what's being presented?

Hmm....hostile and belittling much? Grow up dude... get over yourself.

Well then, unfortunately you misunderstood me and are incorrect.

Hostile? Grow up? Get over what?

I see you failed to answer the questions.

Maybe I did but it was the context of the "distance doesn't matter" comment.

So far here is how this thread has went.....

Opinions were stated on what is bullet failure. That?s all good...opinions were asked for

Then half compiled facts were thrown out for proof of what consistently fails....

So far enough facts haven?t been posted to be worth putting in my expertise.

But yes. You have one heck of an attitude problem which is apparent across the forum.
It?s not that hard to be reasonable and polite and skipping out on jumping to insults....

The only one making personal comments here is you. It's unnecessary, uncalled for and unproductive. We're talking about bullets here, not wives, mothers or dogs. I don't see a valid reason for ruffled feathers.

So we haven't earned the right to hear your "expertise", is that what you're saying? You think this "attitude" is going to be helpful?

I'll ask again, whose information is lacking? I can't speak for others but if you have questions, perhaps it's possible to obtain more information, if you would but ask for it?

That is quite a broad statement that I must unfortunately disagree with due to personal experiences.

So you would willingly take to the field with a bullet you know comes apart at close range? I guess it's a jacketed "thing" because I sure as hell wouldn't.

Must be.

But, my disagreement was with the statement, what it does at the Muzzle it?s going to do anywhere within 100 yards.

You know, the part I put in bold from your quote.

Happy hunting! I know I enjoy mine.

:-)

After your experience with cast bullets on the Longhorn, would you ever use the same bullet/gun combo...that has to be the most times that I've ever heard an animal having to get shot to be killed

I understand that but the question remains. Who wants to trust a bullet that fragments near the muzzle? Do you just walk away from a 50yd shot?

Feel free to share your experience with bullets that fragment at close range but work anywhere under 100yds.



I'll answer your questions when you answer mine.

(PS, that was addressed two years ago when it happened)

I know that James has asked you twice during this forum discussion and I've asked you once, what bullet or bullets out of your handguns have failed you? Is it just the one XTP? I questioned your actual in the field handgun experience because you seem to be avoiding that question. You made the comment to Zee that his choices must be a "jacketed" thing, but he put's his animals down quickly, so it seems that he knows what to do and how to do it already..so I think that answers your question

1) I do.
2) Yes I have. I often prefer to shoot game at further distance or within the velocity threshold of the bullet.
3) A-Max/SGK/SMK out of a high velocity cartridge will often separate at the muzzle in lighter high velocity cartridges but work perfectly further out and within 100 yards. I've seen it happen quite a lot.

James asked what bullet failures I've had and I answered it. So you take that and the bit about the longhorn to mean that I have no handgun hunting experience??? That's an interesting conclusion you reach on very, very limited information.

No, I said accepting such limitations must be a "jacketed thing".

Since you decided to draw a conclusion and make an accusation rather than asking a question, I'll tell you. I've been handgun hunting for 30yrs. Since long before I was old enough to buy a firearm, let alone handgun. Got my first .44Mag at 16 and started hunting with it shortly thereafter.

I don't hunt with single shots so the overwhelming majority of my bullet failures have been with rifles. Why? Because I have always used cast bullets in handguns and found that they work with boring regularity. No picking and choosing my shots, no worrying about bullets failing due to excessive velocity, no worrying about angles or any of that. Most of the jacketed bullets I've used in handguns have been Speer's bonded variety and I found that they work very well. The separated XTP I posted the picture of was recovered from SIMTEST. I have never used XTP's on game because I heard of more failures than I was comfortable with and saw no reason to deviate from cast bullets. It wasn't until I started shooting 1500-2000lb animals that I discovered for myself the shortcomings of cast bullets. Which I still prefer over your average jacketed bullet for the task.

On the longhorn, yes I remember your rhetoric when it happened and I had the same response then as I do now. No, it didn't take so many shots to kill the damned thing. It was dead on the first shot, just like the two water buffalo last year. We could've easily waited for the animals to expire but this wasn't your typical hunting situation, we were there to test bullets. So the most bullets we could get into each critter before its heart stopped pumping blood was the goal. More bullets = a more data. Fortunately, a 2000lb bovine has a huge heart that pumps slow and it takes a long time for them to bleed out. Therefore, most shots were possible on the live critter before it gave out. Unlike anything possible with deer or hogs.

Yes, I would use that load again. The bullets did not fail but were recovered under the hide on the opposite side. Considering what they went through, they did very well.

Thanks for answering. Looks like you've never had a bullet failure in a handgun....looks like a lot of your distrust in some handgun bullets is through others experiences. You never know, they might not be as bad as you think if you shoot something with one (jacketed bullets) out of a handgun

Gees Zeee, Keep up the good work cause with numbers like that your hot on the trail of Doc......

I ain?t as smart as him, but I AM prettier!

😁

A lot of what I do as well is take others hunting/culling. Like my friends, co-workers, family, and such. I give them the guns and or ammo and we go shoot things. It gets them the experience and excitement and it gets the testing done that I want done. Honestly, the joy of taking others hunting is more rewarding than doing it myself. I?ve taken plenty. I like sharing my passion with others. And I get to learn in the process.

Zee, you have definitely been a welcome addition to this site and the passion that is handgun hunting! Keep it up brother!

I SAW A FRIEND OF MINE SHOOT AN AMERICAN BUFFALO, AT MAYBE 30 - 40 YARDS, WITH A 500 A SQUARE RIFLE (HIS ELEPHANT RIFLE AND LOAD). HE SHOT IT GOOD IN THE SHOULDER AND THE BULL JUST STOOD THERE. HE THEN PUT 2 MORE INTO HIM, FORMING A BEAUTIFUL 3 SHOT CLOVERLEAF, AND STILL THE BULL STOOD THERE, FINALLY HE WENT DOWN AND EVENTUALLY EXPIRED. THE FIRST SHOT KILLED HIM BUT MY FRIEND KEPT PUMPING HIM. WE DID NOT BELITTLE HIM FOR THE 2 XTRA SHOTS, NOR DID WE DOUBT THE 500 A SQUARE, WE JUST MARVELED AT THE BISON'S TENACITY.

Oh, you?re gonna start an argument with that one. Ha!! I?m sure it?s debatable.

I am what I am. I like to share and I like to learn. Maybe not always with the greatest tact. But hey..........it?s exciting!!!

😎

No one can argue with a love of hunting and shooting, particularly handgun hunting. We are such a small group (as compared to all the other types of hunting )

Well, in full disclosure, I am a whore when it comes to firearms and hunting. I refuse to recluse myself from all the fun and knowledge I can have.

I like guns. All guns. I like hunting. All hunting.

I use handguns, longarms, bows, knives, sticks and even a tire iron once!!! I hunt close and I hunt far.

If it means I get to go to the range and or field..........sign me up!!

So, I am NOT solely a handgun hunter. Just being honest.

part time is better than no time...some folks just kill the keys on the keyboard of a computer...it's an obsession...even part time

This

That's right! You never know how much is enough until they're with St. Peter. Guy posted a video on B&M Forum of a Cape buffalo that soaked up six .577's without even acting sick. You just can't use the one shot and done approach/mindset you might use for deer. I'm gonna keep shooting until they're down and then shoot `em again.



Oh I've seen quite enough but if we're not going to learn from others, why are we here? Reminds me of one of my favorite quotes:

"Wise men learn by others? harms; fools by their own." - Benjamin Franklin

This [censored] is starting to get boring

Ha!! I couldn?t resist. 😁

I also have a friend that took a American buffalo (last year) at 40yds with a 350gr XTP from his FA`s 500WE...The buff stood a second and fell over.....Go figure.....

Has anyone ever seen or heard of a punch bullet failing? By failing, I mean blowing up, or severely deforming.

Happy Easter, gentlemen!

Happy Easter!



I bent one and cracked the brass sleeve but had to shoot it with a Barnes Buster for it to happen. The result of a mid-buffalo collision.

The US snipers use SMK bullet and they definately expand, I know I?ve used them. Also the Marines a few years back purchased 2 million what they called open tip to issue their troops for increased performance.

Like I said, limited.

Not that limited, there have always been full metal jacketed bullet that expanded and or fragmented. It?s not new.

I thought the idea behind the 77gr.OTM was to yaw? The air cavity makes the bullet tail heavy leading to Tumble. I believe it was the same for the 7.62x39 8M3 "Effect" bullet.

I use the Mk 262 Mod 0 (77gr OTM) for work and pleasure.

It expands and performs well on ?medium game?.

77 grain SMK's stabilize just fine, flying through the air, even at distance. Personally, I have not used any on game yet.
Will use 77 grain TMK's soon on prairie dogs though.

Then where's the data and how does it apply?

If it actually expands, I'm surprised as its supposed to yaw. That may result in fracture, I guess. Military lawyers gave It the thumbs up because it's not designed for expansion.
It is made for accuracy and is very stable until contact, that's when the Tumble does its damage.

Zee, be cautious if using actual Gov. 262 mod. 0. It was replaced by mod.1 in 2003. We had a bunch of mod. 0 and experienced reliability issues.

My bad. Tested the Mod 0. Use the Mod 1.

I suck with numbers. Ha!



Terminal performance is exceptional. And one of the reasons the 6.8 SPC project died.

I wish I knew as much about bullets, as some of you guys have forgotten.

It's accurate stuff to boot!! My boy shot 750 yards for the first time using that ammo and it worked like a champ. Ernie was there to participate.

What are you using, a 7 twist barrel?

Dick

Fun times for sure.
107 SMK has killed a number of mule deer, antelope and some blacktail, chambered in a 8T 243 Win, by a good friend of mine, Darrell Holland in Oregon. He is usually an Accubond fan, but he likes the 107 for deer sized game.
I have taken game with the 107 Smack, as a young man has here in Gillette with XP's.

SMK?s definately expand I?ve seen too many head of game shot with them and a fe2 recovered bullets and they expand.

I killed elk, deer and deer with the 300 grain 338 SMK and it is devastating on game. They will come undone in deer at 220 yards with extreme internal damage. At 300 on 2 deer I?ve had complete pass through with extreme internal damage. At 1400 yards they leave tennis ball size exits.

Th3 175 grain SMK is devastating on antelope at about any range.

Yes. That is a 7 Twist barrel on that particular rifle and my Contender Pistol that likes them as wel.

GENTLEMEN: A LOT OF RIFLE DISCUSSIONS GOING ON, AND SOMETIMES NO CLARIFICATION OF WHETHER YOUR EXPERIENCE WAS WITH A BULLET IN A RIFLE OR A HANDGUN. SINCE THIS IS A HANDGUN HUNT WEBSITE COULD YOU PLEASE AT LEAST LET US KNOW WHICH EXPERIENCE WAS WITH A HANDGUN.

45 man,
My experiences with the 107 Smack, was in handguns.
Darrell's is with rifles. Since Darrell was shooting sometimes at further distances than myself and Logan, the impact velocities were in the same area at times. Darrell started faster/longer barrel, which just showed they handled the faster impact velocities too.

45 man,

The use of SMK?s is with rifles.

It is also used in specialty pistols too...

Many of the specialty pistols due to barrel length replicate the gas gun rifles

I figure that SP?s run about 200-300 fps slower MV?s, than rifles on average

QUOTE from ZEE: "I like guns. All guns. I like hunting. All hunting.

I use handguns, longarms, bows, knives, sticks and even a tire iron once!!! I hunt close and I hunt far.

If it means I get to go to the range and or field..........sign me up!!

So, I am NOT solely a handgun hunter. Just being honest. [/quote]

HELLO!

I have been admitting this for years!

Oh... BTW I killed a fox with a crossbow.

FWIW I have a bull elk and a muley buck in Pope and Young...And a huge 6X8 muzzleloader rifle bull elk that I have not bothered to enter...

I AM A HUNTER. Pretty much as my ancestors were.

Hunting "too much" helped cost me my first marriage...

Me too! I didn't get a chance to hunt with any of the half dozen or so handguns I wanted to use this past season because I never got to blood my new custom flintlock rifle. Too many irons in the fire, I guess.

Ive not tried the 77 gr. OTM in my Contender, as it has the 1-12 (I believe) twist. I look forward to trying some 62 gr. Federal barrier blind/ bonded SPs though. They're .223 pressure. If they shoot well with that twist rate, they should do well. They hold together very well and expand down to 1800 FPS.

I know, I was talking about my experience with them

I can tell you exactly how many times he shot that animal, it was 12 times to get him on the ground and then borrowed a 500 to Finnish him off. That?s a total of 13 times, that?s why he refuses to say how many shots.

The dead on the first shot? BS you shot it 12 more times total, 11 more just to get it on the ground and then borrowed a 500 to finish it off. How can you say it was dead on the first shot? Do you really think infection sets in that fast?

Is there an echo in here? I already explained this. It was dead with the first shot. It was a bullet test. We don't fire a shot and let them go bleed out. We press them and put as many bullets as we can into them before the critter loses blood pressure for a more complete test. More shots = more data. In no way does that mean it "took 13 shots" to kill it.

The .500 coup de gras was unnecessary as I stood over it watching a thumb sized stream of blood gushing from its chest. Maybe if you had been there, you'd have a more accurate perception of what actually happened but folks with an agenda hear what they want to hear.

And I told in the hunt report how many shots I took. It's not a secret.

Don't pollute this productive thread with personal nonsense.

Congratulations 🎈 I think you have established a new record!

Sometimes you just can't win. Shoot a critter one time, well that's inconclusive, not a deep enough test. Shoot one 12 times and now it's ineffective. For some people, it's all about their narrative, not what actually happened.

Are you trying to say you intentionally were trying to wound this longhorn, instead of taking him cleanly and effectively?

Hahah.

Sorry but no.

c'mon now boys and girls, 'nuff!

Buglers 'N Bullets:

Freedom Arms .454 along with two of their 260 grain Flat Point bullets recovered from 2 different bull elk.


Perfect failures?

We used to say "magnum primers" when joking about hot topics on this site. Looks like we'll have to start saying "bullet failure."

Greg, I'll take 2 kills with 2 shots anytime & I'll call it success no matter what the bullets look like. You need to send that gun up here to Idaho where I can take better care of it, I'll let you keep the ivory!
Dick

That?s because it is a success.

Did you get the PM that I sent you on the 4th?

hey Gregg... I understand about the testing and wanted to ask if they were 13 different bullets?? Had to be something to see with all those guns..

I guess this is as bad as I`ve experienced with "bullet failure"..

This was a 180gr XTP fired at 1700+ fps MV and hitting a four horn at 40 yards so you can get an idea of impact velocity... He was an extreme quarter toward and at the shot he was lifted up on hind legs and over on his back....The front leg/shoulder bone took the entire impact and what you see is what I found. Shot him through the ribs to finish... Talked with Bob Baker at the YO that year and he said "its a rare shot when an XTP did not penetrate a shoulder bone"... Anyway ...that`s my failure story... You bullet test guys are doing a service for handgunners....

So you were not trying to intentionally wound the longhorn, logic would dictate your 12 hits weren?t effective.

Logic left a long time ago when the agenda took over.

Logic would've concluded that a .44 caliber, 355gr WFN with a .340" meplat at 1200fps would be mighty effective and that no critter would know the difference if the bullet was 100fps slower with a .015" bigger meplat. Yet here we are.

Some people see what they want to see, no matter what.

James, that XTP has been destructicated! Looks like it hit a piece angle iron. But, it flip over the critter over, that's impressive!

Gregg, tell us about those two bullets (distance/speeds) and what parts they hit. One shows some expansion, but it's not crazy. The other turned into a glob of lead and copper, but looks like it held together.

Being a member of various forums has convinced me that somewhere there's probably a Bagpipers forum where guys are arguing about whether a plaid kilt should be more red or green

Then how do you explain it taking 12 hits from your 44 to get the longhorn on the ground and then a 13th with a 500 to put him out of his misery?

I?m all ears.

JDK, After watching that ram flip I looked down at the gun and thought "what the hell do I have here".....

I counted less than six while he was on his feet, all but one on the run, six to eight more while he was on the ground and for the 1000th time, the .500 coup de gras was unnecessary. You would know this, had you actually been there. I'm sorry but you're twisting the truth to fit your personal vendetta.

All of which ignores the two water buffalo down with two shots.

Phil Shoemaker killed a 900 pound charging Brown bear with a 9mm with fewer shots. 👀

By Phil Shoemaker

I have been guiding brown bear hunters and fishermen and bear photographers from our homestead within Becharof National Wildlife Refuge in Alaska for 33 years and have had numerous close encounters with bears. Until now, I have never had to shoot an unwounded bear to protect either myself or clients, but the other week an event occurred and my good fortune changed. When it happened, I was fully aware of what was going on and how big the bear was. I also managed to stay aware of where my clients were, even when the bear was directly between us. The woman I was guiding said that while she did not remember smelling the bear?s breath, it was close enough to her face that it could have bitten her!

I have killed enough bears to know how important shot placement can be, even with large-bore rifles. I was well aware of the limitations of my 9mm pistol, even with Buffalo Bore ammo. I was aiming for a vital area with each shot; because it all took place between 6 and 8 feet, they were not far off. But hitting the head and brain of a highly animated and agitated animal is a difficult shot.

The two photos shown here tell a pretty good story by themselves. The secondary photo (embedded at the bottom of this story) was taken from the point where the charging bear first erupted from the brush. I am on the left and Larry, my fishing client, is on the right. The bear was within 2 feet or less of Larry and his wife when I shot it. You can see the dead bear to the left of Larry. The main photo (embedded to the right) shows Larry and me with the dead bear and shows its size.

Larry and his wife were fishing with me, and because we were going to a small stream I had fished before, which had numerous large male brown bears, I decided to take my Smith & Wesson 3953 DAO 9mm, rather than the S&W 629 .44 Mag. Mountain Gun I have carried for the past 25 years, as the larger boars are usually less of a problem than sows with cubs.

Before we reached the stream, while we were walking through dense brush and tall grass, we heard a growl and deep ?woof? of a bear approximately 6 feet to our right (behind me in the secondary photo). We had been talking loudly but must have startled a sleeping bear. It sounded like it made a movement toward us, and I shouted loudly and the bear ran back through the brush to the right in the photo. Within 15 seconds, we could hear it growling and charging through the dense brush from the opposite side.

I had my pistol out by then, and the bear first appeared from where the photographer in photo No. 2 was standing. It went straight for my clients; Larry and his wife fell backwards in the deep grass. She said the bear?s face was close enough to hers that it could have bitten her!

The bear was highly agitated and standing within 3 feet of my clients when I decided I could take a shot without endangering them.

My first shot was at its neck, and then it began growling and spinning toward the impact. I wanted to hit the head but the bear was moving so fast I simply began shooting each time I could hit a vital area. I hit it six times before it turned to run off, and my seventh shot was into its pelvis area as it ran. When it dropped within 6 feet of the last shot, I checked my pistol and found I had only a single round left in the chamber so decided against walking in and finishing it.

My pistol was loaded with Buffalo Bore 9mm +P Outdoorsman 147-grain FN hard-cast loads that have a muzzle velocity of 1100 fps. I had previously tested, compared and proven such loads with my .357 and .44 mags., and I was convinced they would work

https://www.americanhunter.org/articles/...ith-9mm-pistol/

Hey Greg.... looks like we both know a good thing when we shoot it

Here we go again......

Speaking of Shoemaker... heard Buffalo Bore has a hard time keeping up with its 9mm 147gr TC ammo...

I heard the same.

I heard the same.

And on B&M forum we watched a Cape buffalo soak up six .577's. So what???

It's a pity you weren't there to get an accurate perception of what happened but you have your version and are sticking to it. Sorry Parker but now you're just being a troll.

John, did you send me a PM on the 4th? I didn't get one.

Dick

It was Gary.

Well Mr. Copeland the accurate picture is the poor ole domestic cow surpffered unduly.

Tell us again how effective you were.

I guess if the meplat had been .005" bigger I could've just fired a shot over its head and scared it to death. I'll know better next time.

The water buffalo must've already been sick and ready to die.....or something.

Since this is a thread on bullet failure and not one constructed for your personal vendetta, which has nothing to do with a dead longhorn, maybe you can explain how a cast bullet with a .340" meplat that broke shoulders and fully penetrated an 1800lb bovine and was found intact on the far side, is a "failure"? And further explain how a meplat .005" larger would've just flattened it like a .30Mag on an 80lb doe??? Or maybe you should just stop with this childish nonsense before you embarrass yourself any further????

13 rounds to kill a domestic cow sounds like bullet failure. Poor animal