CAST BULLETS: HOW FAST IS TOO FAST?

THERE HAS TO BE AN OPTIMUM VELOCITY RANGE FOR HARD CAST LEAD BULLETS FOR THE BEST COMPROMISE BETWEEN BULLET INTEGRITY (MINIMAL DEFORMATION) AND PENETRATION.

THE TOP RIGHT HAND BULLET WAS A 325gr WFN SHOT OUT OF A 5 1/2 INCH CUSTOM 45 COLT TLA REVOLVER @ APPROX, 1,325 fps INTO A LIVE WATER BUFFALO AT ABOUT 30 YARDS, AND, AS YOU CAN SEE THE BULLET NOSE WAS BEGINNING TO BE COMPROMISED, BUT, AS I RECALL, THE PENETRATION WAS ACCEPTABLE. THE LOWER BULLET WAS A 200gr FN SHOT OUT OF A 357 MAX CONTENDER @ ABOUT 1,750fps INTO THE SHOULDER OF A WHITETAIL BUCK @ 95 YARDS. THIS BULLET's INTEGRITY WAS SERIOUSLY COMPROMISED AND IT DID NOT PENETRATE STRAIGHT. I HAVE NOTICED WITH MY 45 COLT OUTDOORSMAN LOADS (A 250gr OTBC RNFP @ 1,350 fps) THAT BULLET INTEGRITY STARTS TO SUFFER (PRIMARILY SOME NOSE DEFORMATION) ON SHOTS AT 60 YARDS AND UNDER. SO MY THINKING IS THAT THE OPTIMUM VELOCITY FOR BULLET INTEGRITY AND PENETRATION MAY BE SOMEWHERE UNDER 1,300 fps.

I KNOW A LOT OF YOU GUYS OUT THERE HUNT A LOT MORE THAN I HAVE, OR DO, WITH CAST BULLETS AND ARE BOUND TO HAVE MORE EXPERIENCE AND RECOMMENDATIONS. SO HOW FAST IS TOO FAST?

45man

Great Topic!

The buff bullet (325gr wfn), was the hit in the sholder and did it strike any large bones? Oh and what was the muzzle velocity?

Thanks
Mark

I now use speed strictly to do calculations, and to make sure my loads are consistent. I prefer accuracy, no matter what speed it's at. Granted, ya got to have enough speed to get the bullet there, but after that, there's an obvious line between gaining penetration, and gaining recoil. I saw some guys on this forum discussing that, and had to see for myself. Went to the range and figured out what they were talking about.

MARK: MV WAS, AS I RECALL, A LITTLE OVER 1,325 fps, BUT THIS WAS MANY YEARS BACK, AND MY MEMORY FAILS ME. I BELIEVE THE 1st SHOT WAS A SHOULDER SHOT AND HE RAN A SHORT DISTANCE INTO A THICKET, I THEN DROPPED HIM WITH A BULLET INTO AND/OR ALONG THE SPINE. DO NOT EVEN RECALL WHICH OF THE 2 BULLETS THIS IS. DID NOT DO MUCH OF AN AUTOPSY, IF ANY AT ALL, PROBABLY DUG THAT BULLET OUT FROM UNDER THE SKIN SOMEWHERE, AND THE VAQUEROS AT THE YO PICKED HIM UP AND TOOK HIM TO TOWN. I KEEP THOSE 2 BUFFALO BULLETS IN MY DESK DRAW AT THE OFFICE. ON THE LEAD BULLET YOU CAN TELL IT HAD STARTED TO LOSE BULLET INTEGRITY.

...and at what weight can we then slow it down and allow the heavy bullet to do it's job at a lower velocity and still get deep penetration and not have nose deformation from too much velocity? For example:

.500L 450gr at 1350fps compared to 540gr at just under 1100.

I don't think there's a definite answer, just too many variables in hunting to nail it down other than a ball park figure, even then things can happen that none of us can explain.
Again, I can only go off my own experience but the problem I've seen most times with cast is when a guy messes up & loses an animal he goes home & makes his ammo hotter. To me, this is going the wrong way, a big heavy cast bullet, no matter how tough can only stand so much strain & then it's going to fail but if you let it work in the 1000-1300 fps range where most alloys are in their comfort zone you will have a successful out come, my experience.
Before chronographs, I always started out by shooting a mild, book load & increasing until it started to get nice & tight, then when it started to open back up I stopped & called it good.
Later on when I got my first chronograph I found out that most of those loads with heavy bullets were almost always in the 1100-1200 fps range.
Two things were happening here, one was, that seemed to be the "sweet" spot for many of the heavy cast bullets & it also seemed to be my "recoil" sweet spot. I could & did shoot many loads much hotter in the early years but my 1100-1200 fps loads were zipping through deer, elk, bears, antelope, lions, moose, hogs. Why punish myself with more recoil in a short range, iron sighted gun that was killing everything with ease by going up the scale, made no sense!
I've probably taken somewhere around 20 head of game with jacketed handgun bullets, not many, but back in the day there weren't many good six gun bullets to pick from & cast were so much easier to make & shoot by the thousands.
Since recoil goes up about 3-1 compared to velocity why punish yourself & your gun to make a 50 yd or under shot on a 200 lb deer? These are just my thoughts, agree or disagree. Like I said earlier, that's why they make chocolate & vanilla.
I always think it's best to go up in caliber & bullet rather than stress a smaller one. Heavy bullets, reasonable velocity & great accuracy will get you there, again just my thoughts.

Dick

DICK: IF YOU CAN, PLEASE PROVIDE INFO ON THE TYPE OF CAST BULLETS YOU USED AND/OR THAT YOU THINK THE SWEET SPOT FOR IS IN THE 1,100 - 1,200 fps RANGE, e.g. 240 SWC's IN THE 44 MAG, OR 300 WFN's IN THE 45 COLT, OR WHAT? MY 2 LOW END 45 COLT LOADS DO AROUND 925 fps AND 1,350 fps IN 5 1/2 INCH BISLEYS WITH 250gr OTBC RNFP's, BUT I AM THINKING I MAY NEED TO DEVELOP A LOAD IN THE 1,100 - 1,200 fps RANGE.

As Dick said, my 45 Colt shooting 335gr hardcast came in to a sweet spot at 1075 fps. I went about it by starting just above the lowest load listed, and went up, 5 shots at a time, from there. I got to where my groups were great, and again as Dick stated, pressing them further made the group start to open up. I went back to the last "best group" and called it good. I THEN ran it through my Ohler to see what my average was, and also my standard deviation.

The sweet spot I found for my cast bullet loads for my 45 Colt was right at 1,150 with a 320 grain LBT style with a very wide meplat cast out of wheel weights and quenched in water. Out of my 7-1/2? Blackhawk they create 6 shot groups at 25 yards that touch when I do my part. I?ve always gotten straight line penetration with them and have had no problem sending them through both shoulders on hogs and they make nice round 45 cal holes going in and coming out. I have not been able to recover any to determine if the bullet is deforming much, but at those speeds and looking at the evidence during the autopsy I don?t think I am having any significant deformation. I wouldn?t be afraid to send them through an elk at that speed, but would need further testing before I sent them through anything large and nasty that could do me harm.


Eric

This is a great topic. I think I'll defer to those with much more experience than I. One such man is Marshall over at Beartooth bullets. I've used his bullets in my .357 and .44 and I love them. He seems to agree that somewhere close to 1100 fps is ideal. See the below link for a very comprehensive article on the subject.

http://beartoothbullets.com/tech_notes/archive_tech_notes.htm/61


"Putting aside game outside the lower 48 states, and looking at strictly deer, pronghorn and average black bear sized critters, an effective hunting load need not be over 1100-1200 fps with careful bullet selection. In fact, both my experience, those of hunting partners, and countless customers attests to the fact that cast bullet loads with muzzle velocities in the 1000 to 1100 fps category are truly amazing in their terminal performance!" Marshall Stanton

This is the "thought that counts" !

Rey, this is what I've done with cast bullets for over 50 years & it's done pretty well for me with very little adjustment. I've posted this formula on several forums & sometimes you need to bump it up a point or down a point but it's seemed to be really dependable for me on game up through hogs, many elk, my bull moose & African plains game, beyond that I can't offer any advice because I have no experience on the megatrons.
Here's what I've always done as far as alloys but remember one thing about wheel weights, they've changed over the years & that's why you "might" need to juggle them up or down one point from what I post. Earlier WW's had a bit more antimony than later WW's, like 4% for the older & the later one's something like 2% so there's a slight difference making the old one's a bit more brittle.
So, here's my formula & I always start out at 1000 fps.

1000 fps I use 70% wheel weights & 30% pure lead
1100 fps I use 80% wheel weights & 20% pure lead
1200 fps I use 90% wheel weights & 10% pure lead

Above 1200 fps I just used straight WW alloy, air cooled.

Going the other way now.

900 fps I used 60% wheel weights & 40% pure lead
800 fps I used 50% wheel weights & 50% pure lead

This has always been really close to ideal to get good penetration on lower 48 big game, good accuracy, accuracy & zero to very minor leading with correct fitting in the throats.
As I said, you might have to juggle this up or down one point depending on your supply of wheel weights.
I've never felt the need to add expensive tin & in the photo's below are some of the animals taken including a few elk with the 41 & 44 magnum with full penetration, one was almost length ways with the 41 magnum & a 230 gr Keith bullet & it did exit.
The bear is a 6 1/2 ft bear taken with a 44 flat top OM with an exit (one of seven)
The bullet is my normal 70/30 alloy & was one of few recovered from a very large feral hog after pulverizing both front shoulders from a 480 or 475. Almost 1" expansion & only lost 2 grs!!














Dick

IN 41 & 44 MAG AND 45 COLT, WHAT ARE GOOD BULLET WEIGHTS FOR DEER, ANTELOPE AND AVERAGE BLACK BEARS? WHAT ABOUT FOR BIGGER BLACK BEARS AND ELK? SOME OF YOU REFER TO "HEAVY" BULLETS BUT I AM NOT SURE WHAT YOU MEAN BY THAT.

45 Colt is one of my favorites. I like the heavier bullets in all my guns. In 45 Colt, I prefer the 335gr hardcast from Cast Performance.

I have no experience with the 41 or 44.

Rey, again I can just give you my opinion, take it for what it'w worth. In the 41 magnum I've used a 230 gr Keith bullet from a very old Saeco mold for about 45 years & have no idea how many deer I've taken with it but it would be dozens for sure. Also elk & 1 bear. The elk with the shoulder rig laying on it & me in the red shirt & you can see a piece of fat sticking out of the left hip. She was trotting up through the sagebrush & spotted my mule tied to a tree above me. When she stopped she was almost facing me but I could slip a 41 slug just behind the right front shoulder with my 8 3/8's Nickel S&W.
The bullet got one lung, the intestines hit a kidney & exited just in front of that left hip, she ran in a little circle for 5-6 seconds & piled up. It almost went through her length ways.
The cow elk that's laying in the snow was taken at 168 yds with an OM Ruger 45 & a 260 gr Keith & 23.5 grs of H110. My buddy "Duck" was shooting her with the range finder as I set up on my walking stick & got lucky with a double lung shot that threw blood in all directions, she was down & out in 20 yds.
Not sure I can tell you what a hard cast bullet is, not sure anyone has the same idea on hard cast. I make my bullets as soft as I can make them & still maintain accuracy. If accuracy starts to fall off & I don't think my load is fast enough then I make the bullet a bit harder. My #1 goal is accuracy & I always get exits.
My last cow elk was very big & was taken with a 250 gr LBT 41 magnum bullet at (I think) 74 yds. The bullet broke both front shoulders & exited, she never took a single step.
The 250 gr in a 41 is a heavy bullet in my opinion, a 280-300 gr bullet is a heavy bullet in a 44 magnum & a 275-325 gr bullet in the 45 Colt is a heavy weight, just my opinion.
I'm guessing you've taken a great deal of game with 45's & have a pretty good handle on what does & doesn't work as does several others here on the forum.
I do think you can "over bullet" any caliber & it's time to move up to something bigger, I'll say it one more time, just my opinion.

Dick

Rey, these were taken in Montana, Wyoming & Utah using a 357 Maximum, a 44 special Bisley, a 41 mangum, a very special 7 1/2" 44 special Bisley & a Ruger 45 Colt. All using cast bullets at around 1100-1200 fps except for the 357 Maximum. I used a 204 gr cast bullet at about 1450 fps on some of those doe's & a Utah doe antelope at 123 yds.
The Montana doe tags are $75 & I usually buy 2-3 & use a different gun on each one & shoot one a day along the Beaverhead River.













Dick

Dick, I have a question concerning a recent purchase of some bullets. It is a cast hollow point 225gr in the 45 caliber.
Cast with 2-2-96 alloy (tin-antimony-lead)
My question is about how fast should I go for with these? I was thinking about 1000 FPS should be max?,, but haven't loaded any yet.

And yes, I did read what you said about the accuracy part. I may have to slow them down to 950 but figured you might know of a good starting point.
My throats on the Pistol are all .4525 and usually I get little or no leading with the hard cast bullets I have used. Barrel is a custom one.
Charles

DICK: BTW, I REALLY ADMIRE ALL THE KILLING YOU HAVE DONE WITH OPEN SIGHT REVOLVERS OVER THE YEARS. THERE WERE PROBABLY MANY TIMES YOU WISHED YOU HAD A LONGER RANGE SCOPED HANDGUN BUT YOU OBVIOUSLY STUCK WITH THE OPEN SIGHT REVOLVERS.

Charles, that should be a very good bullet at 1000 fps but I'm guessing with a good barrel you can exceed that with no problem if the bullets are flat base instead of bevel base.
You'll just have to load some & give them a test drive. The 45 is a superb game killer & does it with modest recoil. I've taken 4 elk with mine. All with iron sights & Keith bullets, except for that calf in the above photo, it was with a 325 gr LBT in my 5 1/2" Bisley.

Dick

Thank you Dick. I am excited about the bullet since it is a Keith style SWC-HP Flat base.
Pistol is the Ruger Bisley with 4 5/8 barrel.
Hopefully will get to load Monday.

Charles

Charles

If that is the GT bullet I'm getting great accuracy with no leading at 1025 fps in my OM 7.5" Blachawk. GT is using good lube and I've been pretty happy with their bullets. They are pretty soft. I thought that HP would be good for white tails but didn't use them this past fall.

I've seen a few 45's that don't like that bullet however. Good luck with yours.

Dan

Yes it is the GT bullet. We had a lengthy phone conversation before I ordered anything and felt that these would probably work. Yep, we will have to see how the shorty likes em. My barrel seems to produce faster velocities than expected. The only leading I ever experienced with it, was from some cowboy bullets. And,,That may have been, from me running them a little fast. If I can find an accurate load then I am going to try them on a whitetail for sure.

Charles

I have used that bullet with 13gr/HS-6 in my 5 1/2" and 7 1/2" SBH with great results. Caution Ruger only Load

Thanks, This was one of the powders I was going to try.

10gr of Unique
14-14.5gr Power Pistol
13-14gr of HS-6
19-21.5 2400
22gr N110

I have some OLD Hodgdon data that lists higher than what is posted. I will start at what I posted.
dhom: Your load should be from 1150-right under 1200FPS (SWAG)(depending upon which barrel length) and that sounds right about where this bullet should be in a sweet spot.
Dick: is saying the same thing. suggested around 1000FPS and should be able go up from that. (VERY MUCH EXPERIENCED)
This is encouraging.

dhom Did you harvest a whitetail with this load?

Here's a few more old photo's of elk, mules, bears, a very large badger taken with the OM 41 magnum shorty, same gun I used on the 2 Texas Javelina.
The 2 elk were taken with an OM flat top 44 magnum & the 250 Keith. The one next to the house was taken close to home, the other bull was taken along the Selway River where we used to pack in almost every year before the wolves moved in.
Four of us were packing out a couple of elk & 2 of us had got seperated from the other 2 guys by maybe a mile. When me & Eddy came around a bend in the trail at a place called Upper Crossing there was this bull standing right in the river drinking. This is a favorite crossing place for elk, we've taken a couple others there before.
Anyway, Eddy had already shot one & I ran past him with my flat top as the bull ran to the far side & stopped. He was in a bad place because it was almost all shale rock & hard to climb. I hit him at an angling shot & he humped up & I hit him again through both lungs & he fell in the shale & slid to the edge of the water. The distance was about 60-65 yds.
I had to unload the packs from my mule & ride across the Selway River & rope the bull & float him acoss. This didn't go to well with my mule, the current was pulling pretty hard & I ended up getting pretty wet!
Longer story on the other bull, for another time.










Dick

Wouldn't that be an oxymoron?

Dang, Dick. You are the epitome of the handgun hunter before handgun hunting was "cool". Good on ya, Man!

Cherokeetracker Got to shoot a doe approx. 120 lbs. The shot was 65 yds and hit 1 rib going in and 1 rib leaving. No bullet recovery but definitely showed signs of expansion. The bullet was cast 20:1 and had a GC. It weighed 315 grains. I choose a heavy bullet because of expansion. Just wanted to make sure I had enough weight for complete penetration.

dhom
Sounds good I have been shooting the "Leadhead" 335gr LBT. harvested 2 deer with it last Season. It is a good bullet and is accurate to longer ranges. with 21.5gr of H110 it gives me 1200FPS That's with the 4 5/8 barrel. Just wanted to try to find a nice HP in case I want a change up. Not used to shooting cast HPs, I had a question about it this "formula" of alloy, and lead etc.
Who knows if I can get my Colt up and running again before Season begins, I might be able to use this bullet in it also.

Rey ask this question and I think it got lost midst my question.


Charles

If I could retrieve all the other photo's from Photobucket I could fill several more pages. I did get some of them but can't remember how I did it!!!!!! Bummer.

Dick

This is an interesting thread. The deer I took last year was with a powder coated 240 Keith SWC at 1035fps ... long story, but at the time I thought it was a tad hotter. I think my new project will be to add another 1/2 grain of Unique and see if accuracy holds.

Some years ago John Linebaugh did a series of comparison tests with heavy weight cast bullets. He concluded that "...a dependable cast slug, not too hard, not too soft, at a moderate velocity not to exceed 1300 fps and let caliber and bullet weight do the job..." He went on to state that his preference was 1200 fps. I load between 1100 and 1200 fps, depending on caliber. I prefer 1100 fps in my 45/70 and 480 Ruger revolvers and 1200 fps in everything else.

I?ve used pure wheel weights water quenched up to 1400 FPS with excellent results on Alaskan Yukon moose with 50 plus inch spreads as well as grizzly.

John is correct, as velocity goes up bullet hardness has to go with it. Although I prefer to shoot my cast bullets as soft as I can & still get accuracy once you go so far speed wise you have to raise the BHN of your bullets.
Here's 3 different targets I shot with one of my 480's a few years ago just to prove a point. The first target is 25 yds, the second target is 50 yds with 2 shots going a tick low but still a decent group at 50 yds with iron sights.
The third group is the same load but the bullets weren't water quenched & you can see how the group opened up, even at 25 yds.
It all goes back to matching the hardness to the velocity. Almost forgot, Idaho is probably having it's first Grizzly hunt in over 50 years this fall, hope I get lucky! Only 3 hours away!






Dick

I've done a little reading and it appears that they would only allow 1 Boar to be killed in Idaho? Is that correct?

Snyd, yes the 3 states are getting the ok for a hunt this fall but Montana is going to pass this first time around, not sure why. Idaho is going to go with one permit, again not sure why, we have lots of bears! Wyoming is going with 24 bears!!
This isn't a done deal for sure but it sounds like this is the way it's going to play out the first year (fall hunt)

Dick

If you can find a copy of John Linebaugh's article "Gun Notes: A Common Sense Look at Handgun Hunting" it reinforces a number of the points raised in this thread,

Like so many others here I always chased that speed years ago, now all but my varmint revolvers are as has been stated, 1000 to around 1300 fps max, most 1150 to 1200 with heavy for caliber bullets, and seem to have better results than them early years, imagine that?

I also find the last couple years have started using reflex sights, as them most productive hours of first and last light I just can't find the sights on the dark background. I am sure as I continue to age there will be even more changes.

In Tn where I live, TWRA wants hunters to use expanding bullets- so I try to... I run the ballistics of my rounds through a program and try find out where what load is going 1200 fps and at what distance which should let the bullet at least try to expand...all my bullets are cast; cup points, penta points and various HP. If the bullet is plain base-- I WD, if the bullet is HP I let it AC
If the 1200 fps is farther than I want to shoot --I will sight the gun in at a shorter distance--

My 45 Colt load is 25 gr of I4227 with 250 XTPs. It clocks 1250 fps. It prints 1 hole ragged groups from the bench at 50 yards.

Ruger SBH Hunter 7.5
Burris FF1

CMNASH's RECENT BRAGGGING BOARD POST OF HIS 2 PIECE RECOVERED WFN "HISTORIC" CAST BULLET MADE ME THINK THAT GUYS NEED TO REVIEW THIS MOST INTERESTING TOPIC AGAIN.

320 grain .44 loaded by Reeds Ammo to a claimed but unverified 1200 fps.

The bullet struck a 550 lb Highland bull low in the shoulder at about 30 yards. The base was recovered from the offside hide, while the nose fragment remained in the on side shoulder.

That result is why we started the bovine bash. Now imagine trying to bring down a cape buff with that. There are much better bullets. Im sure an elk would die with that with your shooting matthew, but it might add alot to the pack out if you recover it. Id prefer it going down ?right now? than going down 800 more vertical feet to pack it up and out.

I concur. I carried that bullet to elk country last fall. If I had been able to close to sixgun distance, I might have placed one in a bull elk. I think now, that he might have very well walked my butt all over that country.

Thats also why i get a kick out of the elite, usually western, hunters that criticize fences feeders, stands, etc. but mostly fenced exotic hunts. These serve a huge use besides hunting and fun, but ample opportunities to test and undo the horrible advice/dogmas of years gone by. I know more than one hunter that wishes they wouldve seen results from this hunt or the bovine bash before losing expensive animals and trophy fees.

This is the problem though. Linebaugh hasnt shot much and quite frankly doesnt know how bullets work or damage is done. This last year we compared 475 440 wfn?s with a huge meplat, the biggest in the business, shot at 1100 fps vs 357 mags with 140 gr barnes at 1450 fps and the 357 created a better wound channel. A revolver isnt just a punch press and the idea that that is the way to go is only touted by those that havent done much of it to begin with. Working on one or two animals doesnt make for a dogma worth adhering to. I shot a watusi, which is no cape buffalo, with a 440gr 500 smith at jrh velocities 1384 fps and it obviously lost its nose profile and took a 60 degree turn and exited the size of a pencil hole and the chase was on. When we caught up to them we couldnt even tell which one was the wounded one until my cousin picked up a trickle of blood in one of their nostrils. Put it down in 10 yards with a barnes xbp 250 out of a 454. According to the dogma its supposed to be the other way around, but its not.

I have a feeling theres alot of animals running around africa that were never recovered, but those stories are rarely told. I witnessed one of them. Rarely in the world of dangerous game hunting is a solid the best answer and ive yet to find a situation where a cast is.

Blasphemy!!!! Hahahahaha

Well said

Bullet-performance is the key. A good cast-bullet that penetrates through the vital living area of the animal will kill that animal. A heart-shot animal using a cast-bullet will die. If a cast-bullet deflects or looses its nose it is not going to kill predictably. A Punch bullet or Cutting Edge Bullet will hold together and penetrate like a good hard-cast bullet has shown it can also do. And an A-frame through the heart or through the skull will kill also. So I echo the Bond film and state clearly, live and let die. LOL

Im not sure i understand what you are saying?

To reply, I mean the given being bullet placement, then bullet performance on said game is what matters. Not the supposed reputation of a type of bullet. Now logic dictates a solid bullet i.e. Cutting Edge Bullet or Punch Bullet, will not deform and lose performance as expanding bullets may or may not exhibit. And the A-frame bullet is boringly predictable in its exhibited performance after entering the hide and interior plumbing of the animal. But hard cast that performs well will do as well as the CEB or Punch bullet as long as it holds together and does not damage its meplat as it penetrates.
Does that make anymore sense?

Yes, i get it now. Much clearer. Unfortunately u cant tell when the hardcast will do that. No sense finding out it wont hold together once its thru the shoulder of a buffalo

I agree with the unpredictability of the meplat as it makes contact with heavy bone. All the more reason for water quenching and using alloys that will be tough but not brittle. The Garret formula of alloy used for the Garret, and now owned by Ashley Emerson, Hammerhead design is ultra reliable.
So discounting cast bullets as unreliable offhand is not fair or just. In my honest opinion of never say never...

Ive seen garrets fracture before. I agree on the issue of using a reliable alloy......like copper! How many big animals have you shot that you have based these conclusions on?

Trying to discount me is what that question is meant to do. I will not retreat. I am a teacher and my funds do not allow me to experience world travel. And dispatching bovine flesh is not big game, but still revealing as to what kills, as is dropping bison which would be a traditional big game animal. So I will endorse good hard-cast bullets at adequate velocities, as has been proven effective in my arena of life.
I know what I have seen used kills effectively and I know normally docile bovine can become very aggressive in a split-second. But killing is just killing and even Karamojo Bell, who killed over a thousand elephants with most falling to a 7x57 using a 175 grain FMJ bullet. In his writings he self-disclosed that some elephants mysteriously were unharmed after he had made a precise aimed shot, and he was lucky enough to survive some close calls to tell the tale when all did not go as planned.
So after about a thousand elephants taken, he still had some things happen that surprised him. He theorized that the 7mm bullet would bend or deflect enough to miss the brain. So he upped his arsenal to a 318 Westley Richards and the problem was solved, in his mind. He even wrote later, after the .308 was made into a factory round, that a .308 with 240 grain FMJ bullets running about 2300 fps, would be his new choice for braining elephants.
And domestic fenced in bulls have killed unarmed men working with them, as an uncle of John Ross lost his life to a domestic bull for example. This is why John Ross eventually made a special run of 5-inch barreled 500 S&W X-frame revolvers with no muzzle-brake or ports. His belief in having a carry-piece for protection that would have saved his uncle's life was so great, that he ordered a minimum run from Smith and Wesson made to his special requirements. I have spoken with him over the phone. He sales them, but he may have run out by now.
I digress though. Killing provides experience, but it is not the only requirement for validity for sharing on this site.

Not discounting you. So shooting waterbuffalo, cape buffalo, eland, elk, etc isnt? Now im really confused. Proven, i dont think so. What will potentially work, and which works well, and which works everytime are all different questions.

See these two animals? Same breed, both adult bulls, both thick-skinned. The top one was killed in Argentina and was free-ranging. The other, a blonde specimen, was killed in Hondo, Texas behind a high fence. Now guess which experience was more challenging and exponentially more dangerous. It was the big blonde one. We played a game of cat and mouse with him for three days before "dispatching" him in which time he stalked us repeatedly and snuck up on us from behind more times than I care to count. Very unsettling, and very aggressive. Not all high fence operations are petting zoos. I have had fairly docile bovine bashing experiences, and more than a few that were very dicey.

Sorry for the thread hijacking.





I have used Garrett loads on a few animals and have been present when they were used on a few others, so I feel I can speak with a modicum of credibility when I say that they are probably the toughest commercially cast bullets available. They can and do fracture on occasion and while they killed everything I have seen them used on graveyard dead, you still cannot beat the consistency of the LeHighs, CEBs, or Kodiak Punches. That's just a given. The Garrett loads are however, fantastic (just wish they had a bigger meplat!).

JEFF460: I LOVE WFN BULLETS, I SHOOT A LOT OF CAST BULLETS, AND USUALLY HAVE ONE OF MY RUGER BISLEY 45 COLTS LOADED WITH CAST BULLETS FOR WHEN OUT HUNTING WITH ANOTHER HANDGUN OR DOING RANCH CHORES, BUT EVEN THE BEST CAST BULLETS HAVE THEIR LIMITATIONS WHEN USED ON LARGER GAME, OR WHEN DRIVEN TOO FAST. CMNASH's 320gr 44 MAG WFN CAME APART AT ONLY A MV OF 1,200fps. REED USUALLY PUTS OUT GOOD AMMO BUT THIS LOAD/BULLET DID NOT HOLD UP. IF YOU ARE GOING AFTER AN EXPENSIVE ANIMAL, OR YOUR LIFE MAY DEPEND ON FAIL SAFE PERFORMANCE, USE A PREMIUM BULLET WITH PREDICATABLE BULLET INTEGRITY AND PERFORMANCE. SORRY TO SAY, BUT IMHO THERE ARE NO "PREMIUM" CAST BULLETS.

I stand by Randy Garret's, and now Ashley Emerson's, made hand-cast lead bullets with alloy that will not break, but rather bend. The refinement of the bullet and loading of 44 magnum cartridges by Randy Garret have now been passed on to Ashley Emerson.
Ashley bought the company and added 45 Colt and 454 Casull loading's to the aforementioned 44 magnum cartridges. 45/70 hard cast and other bullet-types are also available. Proving the worth of both hard cast and jacketed bullets by way of Ashley Emerson offering BOTH types for top-of-the-line performance.

Actually, he has quite a few left if anyone wants to buy one.

Killing provides experience, but it is not the only requirement for validity for sharing on this site. [/quote]


Yes, anyone can have an opinion but the weight that opinion carries is directly proportional to their experience! Reminds me of watching mma and boxing fights with people that never fought telling us all during a tyson fight what they would have done to beat mike tyson or roy jones and guys that never grappled telling all those in the room what they think an opponent should do to anderson silva. But but i hit a bag in my garage!?!?! I know this cuz a cousins uncle fought golden gloves etc etc.

As such then you WERE stating by your question of me earlier, if I did not have ENOUGH personal killing experience, then my opinion does NOT matter. So tradmark you now reveal your damning prejudice. I have nothing CLOSE to your killing experience, so you win and I leave.
Shooting into ballistic gel provides valuable comparison to other loads shot into the same ballistic gel. That is valid.
But I will post no more on this site, because intolerance for
any other opinion, no matter the basis, is not tolerable or valid from you.
I am NOT in agreement with you. Good bye and go with God.

JEFF460: I HOPE YOU RECONSIDER AND DO NOT ABANDON THIS SITE. I LEARN A LOT FROM OTHER HANDGUNNER'S EXPERIENCES, AND ALSO VALUE OPINIONS AND THEORY, BUT AM MORE APT TO RELY MORE ON EXPERIENCE THAN EITHER THEORY OR OPINION.

I may reconsider, but I abhor exclusive dogma that seeks to distinguish those who have first-hand experience and keep them ONLY. And that also seek, by interrogation techniques, to discard the well-meaning and learned members who simply wish to interact and keep learning. Learning and reflecting no matter what role player of an honest-source provides for contemplation.
Please pray for me, as I am honestly unconvinced of my own self-worth on this forum.

For those who have not hunted South Texas properties with "high fence" it is used just as much to keep poachers and game thieves out as it is to keep animals in. I have hunted in pastures on a high fenced Texas ranch property. The high fence was around 50,000 acres and the pastures were 5,000 acres each. Not exactly what first comes to mind with the term "high fence".

Let me note here that when discussing such a hot topic as bullet performance on game animals, since every hit/kill is different due to so many variables, there can be different experiences and therefore different personal conclusions.

That is why reading about other people's experience is not going to satisfy or convince everybody...

By all means, please relate your own experiences but do not assume that other's opinions (experience) will be the same, or that everybody will or must agree.

Actual experience (as long as it is truthful and not exaggerated) proves or disproves mere opinions; opinions based on experience are meaningful but as I stated experiences can be different.

Jeff, posts on this site are not to win or lose, but rather share information. I hope you will continue to share yours and please do not doubt your self-worth.

I will not lock this post yet as it has remained mostly civil...

Jeff?i am not being exclusive or prejudicial. I would love to hunt with anyone here and we compare notes and discuss. I have had very very heated discussions with some on this forum that i am good friends with and hunt with regularly. Do not doubt worth but i will say i have some serious questions related to the dogma spread over the years i havent found to be true. Thats where the discussion comes in. Then imagine my surprise when i find out the number of those giving bad advice that has been spread as dogma havent ever done it.im certainly not perfect but i learn from my mistakes. I do agree with rey?s posts above. I dont sell anything, im not sponsored but i have been on hunts where handgunninf was portrayed negatively to an outfitter or a ph, not due to poor shooting but to the bullets being used failing and nearly getting someone killed. I couldnt hunt at a great concession for sable in africa in 2018 due to a bad hunt and bad hardcast failure. No more handguns there! Asking you what you have shot is not prejudicial nor is it trying to make you look bad. I am just figuring out from which position are you speaking from. Nothing more and nothing less. Dont leave but also be prepared to back up opinions with experiences. That is not being mean or malignant and i certainly dont mean for it to. My goal is to help those that havent done it do it well and not learn the lessons i have the hard way.

Hunting can be so unpredictable, even with great bullets & what we call perfect hits. Some animals just don't accept the fact that they are dead on the spot, it happens. Hang around hunting long enough & you'll see it happen with no explanation in sight.
Probably the best, or maybe the worst example I can relate is a guy that shot an Idaho Pronghorn 7 times with a 7mm magnum.
The first shot looked good & was an exit, the next 6 were just brutal & yet it kept running, why? We were just spectators but it was a sad event to watch with no answer that we could come up with. Cast or premium, sometimes it just doesn't make any sense how they react.
Jeff, reconsider, we all need to keep these discussions open & going, hopefully no one gets too worked up over some one else's opinion. There's 2 ways to get experience, listening to those that have it & are willing to share it & also by getting out there & getting in the trigger time. Good hunting!

Dick

Forgot! Being a born & bred western hunter I can tell you that many don't understand high fence hunting but I've always defended it & encouraged it. It's a simple fact that not everyone lives in the western US where there is a lot of public land where you just take off & hunt. We take that for granted out here & some laugh at people that high fence hunt, they wouldn't if they lived in other parts of the country.
I learned when I was in the military in Texas that it's all private & you're going to pay somebody if you want to hunt so shut up & pay or don't hunt.
Also it's a great way to speed up the learning curve, not everyone can make a trip out west every year or go to Alaska or Africa, so stay home, find a good hunting preserve or high fence operation in Texas, etc & get some nice animals under your belt. We all have to start somewhere but at least get started. Then you can test bullets, meet other hunters & see what works & what doesn't. Nobody was born doing it!!!!!!!

Dick

I will come back. Every so-called expert started out as a beginner with no experience. Admire the experience but value all on the journey.

Well said dick

Amen Sixshot..Life is too short...go hunting

Can I get a big AMEN!?!?

Amen

I've said this many times in many places but maybe some haven't heard it or perhaps don't believe it. I learned my lesson in 1976-77 in Handgun Silhouette, you just can't shoot hard cast at hard objects, especially at high velocity or you are doomed to fail. A premium bullet will not do that but cast bullets can break your heart if you break the rules.
The rules are, hard cast at high velocity on heavy bone is a no no, same way on steel we found out after much experimenting. Once we slowed down & softened our alloy we started to have success.
We referred to it as "dwell time" A cast bullet will do fine on a lot of bone but not a lot of heavy bone, especially if it's going fast & is an high antimony alloy bullet.
Big, heavy cast bullets are wonderful, I've used them all my life but I've never tried to drive them top level, you don't need to. The faster you drive them the faster they will fail on heavy bone. Also a nose profile that is too wide will work against you, you have to compromise a little.
I doubt I'll ever kill anything bigger than the elk, moose, bears & plains game I've already killed so I'll never shoot anything but cast. I do have a local guy who said I can shoot some slaughter steers for him in a few weeks, I'll use 3 different calibers. I've done this twice before but it's been a while, looking forward to it.

Dick

"AND SIXSHOT KNOWS CAST BULLETS".

DICK: THIS WILL NOT BE THE LAST TIME YOU MAY HAVE TO REPEAT THE ABOVE, TOO MANY MYTHS OUT THERE ABOUT "HARD" CAST BULLETS.

He who knows cast bullets knows a lot from experience. Experience in testing in live animals and testing in media meant to create a measurable comparative data.

I AM RESURRECTING THIS TOPIC FOR RON K, WHO HAS QUESTIONS ABOUT HUNTING BULLETS FOR HIS COLT NF 45 COLT.

SAW SOME CAST BULLET DISCUSSION ON ANOTHER SITE, GOING TO DIRECT THEM TO THIS TOPIC FOR SOME "STRAIGHT SKINNY", SO I AM RESURRECTING THIS TOPIC SO THEY CAN FIND IT.

As a born and bred Texan I appreciate you pointing out the facts about hunting in Texas. If you want to hunt the very little public land we have here, be prepared to hunt with guys who haven?t hunted much, some of whom are downright unsafe to be around. The other choices are own your land, lease your land, or hunt in exchange for money on a game ranch. These vary from a couple hundred acres to thousands of acres. I own, I lease, and I?ve hunted high fence places. Game is game and it all winds up on my plate. Now that I?ve highjacked a great and educational thread, I?m getting off my soap box to thank .45 MAN for bringing this back up, it has been a great read by folks who have been there and done it !

As a Texan living in the West I get to enjoy the best of both worlds.
This is a very educational thread...thanks!