Hornady Handgun Hunter

I just came across this about two weeks ago. Pretty cool they are coming out with their own "handgun hunting" specific bullet and ammo line.

I really like the concept of the bullets design, but only achieving 200grs for thier 454 casull and 460 Smith bullets gives me some doubts. especially when Barnes was able to get atleast 250grs out of their XPB for the 454. I haven't seen a listed velocity yet,but in my mind it will have to be pretty high to get the performance out of THAT light of a bullet

https://www.hornady.com/ammunition/handgun-hunter#!/

Curious to see how they work on tissue

I KINDA THINK THAT IN THE QUEST FOR "FASTEST" WHEN S&W INTRODUCED THE 460 GOING WITH A 200gr BULLET WAS A MISTAKE AND A GROSS UNDERUSE OF THE CARTRIDGE. YOU CAN GET 2,300fps WITH HEAVIER AND BETTER BULLETS. HORNADY GOING WITH 200 GRAINERS IN THE 454 AND 460 IS JUST MORE BS.

Even in the 44 magnum I was thinking the 200 grain bullet was on the light side. I saw these on the MidwayUSA site, but not yet available. Hornady states that they are suitable for elk and bear.

I could see the 200 being useful for smaller, thin skinned animals like whitetails, antelope, and varmints. That's about it.

I've used their 325 grain FTX in my .45-70 lever. Super accurate but complete blow through on deer with little to no expansion. Will be curious to see how these perform.

Look interesting... I should see if they need a spokesman to hawk them here

But that's the advantage of copper/copper alloy bullets. You get same results as lead, but with lighter wght. And the increased velocity makes up for the energy loss of the lighter bullet. I would be interested in there test results of the new bullets on big game animals. And if they haven't tested them real life I would not buy them yet. I've used 210gr Speer Gold Dots in my 44 Mags and have had excellent performance on deer. The only bullet I've recovered was on a mature doe hit frnt of left hind and angled through to opposing frnt shoulder. Bullet found just under the hide. Perfect mushroom. And she didn't go far. Fifty yrds. Most of my shots are broadside and the 210gr Gold Dots blow right through.

If one could get them as a reloading component, I might try them in my 44 special on deer.

When you research them, they are very long for weight and caliber...every bit as long as a 300 gr 44 bullet.

Hey I like that Idea James!

I can see exactly what they were getting at in designing them, and as I said before, realy like the idea/ design.

I was just suprised at how light they were. like Wheelguns said, I hope they make them available as components. I think I would mess around with them

I agree with reloading them... Did not care for the CEB HP`s performance on a large boar but they were accurate as heck.. Its only fair to give them as try as there being marketed to us.. If anything it should be interesting..

I'll wait for someone to try them and show us how they work on animals. I may get a wild hair and try some of the .357 Mag stuff when it is available.

Here is the new Hornady 200 gr Monoflex, 200 gr XTP, and 300 gr XTP....there is a reason the new bullet is 200 gr's.....if it was heavier, there would be NO room in the case for powder.....

I?d play with them as components.

I WAS COMPARING THE POINTY HP BARNES 45 CALIBER 200gr XPB TO HORNADY's NEW 200gr FPHP 45 CALIBER BULLET, BOTH ARE MADE OF COPPER AND BOTH ARE LIGHT FOR LENGTH. I FOUND THE CORBON 460 LOAD WITH THE BARNES TO BE A GOOD KILLER BUT THEY DID NOT SEEM TO IMPART ANY SMACK/WHACK EFFECT UPON IMPACT. LOOKS LIKE HORNADY IS TRYING TO IMPROVE UPON THE BARNES WITH A BIGGER HP AND AN EXPANDER MATERIAL IN THE HP SO AS TO GET MORE EXPANSION SOONER. THIS MAY RESULT IN MORE SMACK/WHACK UPON IMPACT, WHICH, ON DEER, IMHO, WOULD BE A VERY GOOD THING. I GOT PLENTY OF CORBON AMMO ON HAND WITH THE 200gr BARNES, AND I DO NOT USE MY 460 MUCH ANYMORE, SO I MAY NOT GET ANY OF THIS HORNADY STUFF, BUT LOOKING FORWARD TO REPORTS ON IT.

THE 200 HORNADY IN A 454 FILLS A NICHE THAT DOESN'T EXIST IN MY LIFE. IT IS VERY HARD TO PRESSURE UP LIGHT BULLETS IN THESE LONGER STRAIGHT WALLED REVOLVER CARTRIDGES WITH TRADITIONAL "MAGNUM" POWDERS.

who will be the first??

No desire for factory handgun hunting ammo.

They'll probably release them as components in 2020. It'd be nice to be able to experiment with the OAL. Wonder if they'll fit in a 460 chamber when seated out to the lower groove?

X2 on what 45MAN said. Those 200 grain XPB's will kill, but not quickly.

Yep me too

IF YOU COULD LOAD THEM LONG IN A SINGLE SHOT YOU MIGHT COULD GET A LOT OF MV AND MAYBE FANTASTIC PERFORMANCE ON GAME, I FIGURE SOMEONE ON THIS FORUM MAY JUST DO IT.

It's been slow here as far as deer movement goes, but it typically picks back up after Christmas. If I can get my hands on some, I might try the factory loads out before season ends.

Hope you can find them and get a shot... Good luck...

If I could get just the bullets I'd try em, but just to old to start buying anything already loaded. Besides, my encore pistol and Katahdin seem to be very well fed with the Swift 300 grain A-Frame.

I just can't wrap my head around using 1/3rd of what I got. At the range I take game at, I don't need more speed, and I can't imagine quicker expansion or penetration than I am getting now.

Those are long for weight

I will try them as components when they become available,I have no choice.With the exception of Badlands Precision Bullets(they only make rifle bullets)I would never even consider copper bullets.They're hard to load,they're finicky, they lose velocity fast and they're expensive-sometimes double the cost of real bullets!Just my $.02

I haven?t found copper bullets to be finicky at all. The load development I performed for the CEB bullets I used a few years ago, was remarkably simple and the accuracy second to none. They cost more, definitely, but they are a game changer as far as terminal performance is concerned. The XPBs are really good bullets as well.

ok I guess I just expect everything to perform like like the deep curls and f xtp's do in my .41 magnum,that's all.

Which copper bullets have you tried?

Barnes xpb and ceb's and lehighs in handguns, barnes tsx,ttsx,hornady gmx, nosler e-tip,ceb mth,hammer hunters and badlands bulldozers in rifles

So pretty much everything. You?re not getting good accuracy out of them? What powder did you use with the CEBs if you don?t mind me asking?

I'm getting good accuracy out of the CEB's using power pistol like you said.I got poor accuracy out of the barnes at 100yds using H110, enforcer and power pistol. accuracy was ok at 50 yds but that's not what I'm looking for.I'm using a labradar chrono and I have found in the handguns velocity drops a lot with the copper bullets at 100 yds as compared with the lead bullets.I don"t know if that has anything to do with the 100yd accuracy,just an observation.

interesting.

I know every firearm is a little different, but man my old Browning A-Bolt 7mm Rem mag loves factory Barnes VORtx 160gr TSXs. I have shot 1/2" groups at over a hundred yards off bags with it.

My FA83 454 has shot the XPBs pretty well too, maybe not as accurate as the 265 Swifts I have used, but still definitely minute of whitetail.

I even loaded some XPBs for my 45 colt that I am anxious to try at the range. we'll see how they work soon hopefully.

That stinks you have been having so many issues.

Do you have any numbers (MVs, 100y velocities, BCs and specific bullets model #s) you can share on this?

Did the lead bullets you compared to have identical BCs? Did you compare to what ballistic calculators would suggest for the copper bullets?

I'm using an optical chronograph and haven't been willing to set it up that far down range so any information/confirmation of factory BCs would be appreciated.

Well maybe it's because I have a negative attitude about non-lead to start with because we HAVE to use them.I also want to practice with exactly the same ammo that I hunt with and every round I fire with this stuff I can feel it grabbing at my wallet.

I can understand both feelings. I don't like being told what do do, nor do I like spending more money than I think I should.

I made a personal choice to switched to copper or steel for all my hunting that puts meat on the table after reading the MN DNR report on lead contamination and seeing the X-ray images they took of sheep and deer that they used in the study. Lead was often widely dispersed through the carcass and difficult to predict where it would be. https://www.dnr.state.mn.us/hunting/ammo/lead.html for the study home page with links to a online presentation.

For me with a young child eating mostly venison at home, the potential lead exposure wasn't worth it. Low levels of lead don't really effect adults, but it really messes with the brains of young kids, both before they are born and while they grow.

To lighten the load on my pocket book, I've taken the approach of working up a similar load with a lead bullet and using that for the majority of range time over the non-hunting season and then switching over to copper bullets in the ~month or so before hunting starts. I've found the switch to be quite easy when using optics and I can simply dial in a new POI for the copper rounds. I imagine open sights would be a bit more difficult.

Good luck in finding a load that works for you. Let us know how it works out.

karl-cutting edge does not give their bc for handgun raptors so these are the numbers I know without digging too far.this is loads that I will and have used hunting. first is the .41 magnum 210 grain deep curl going 1580 mv, at 100yds it is still going 1250 fps I use this load hunting!next is .454 casull 240 grain C.E.B. raptor going 1620 mv,at 100yds it is going 1190 fps at 100yds, accuracy is 2'' and under at 100yds,I plan on using this load hunting here in the golden state.I'm hoping the power pistol doesn't act up on me when the weather gets up around 100 degrees because our deer season starts the second week of august.

Thanks for the details. I'll find the BCs and run them through a calculator tonight and post the results.

Are you talking about the flat based raptors with the black polymer inset in the hollow point? SKU #FB 452 250 Cu RAPTOR

I called and like their technical spec PDF suggests, they don't have any numbers for that bullet. Tami suggested it would be very low and likely around 0.200

Thanks karl,I use a labradar and it gives you six velocity readings that you can set from 0-100yds.

BIZZMO, Those labradars look pretty cool. you like yours?

Karl,

I had skimmed through the findings of that MN DNR study some time ago if I recall. That is definitely one of the resaons I have been shooting copper while hunting when I have the opportunity too. I think they perform well too.

BB-I love my labradar! without it you're shooting in the dark-literally!It's easy to set-up and works anywhere.The only trouble I had with mine is when those fires were going out here and the smoke carries a lot of particulate matter and that messes with it.It's a little tough on batteries but you can get a rechargeable power pack or you can hook a usb cord to it.

I will give them a try in .357 since I do not hand load it looks like something I should give a chance.

Sorry that I was a bit slow getting time to sit down and run through the numbers. Here's what I calculated
The 41mag 210 deep curl with a 1580mv and 1250 100y vel has a BC of 0.183 which is pretty good for a pistol bullet
Hornady calculator predicts 1270fps @100y vs the 1250 you measured.

the 240gn 0.452 CEB doesn't have a listed BC, but I used the 250gn Barnes bullet (0.141) with your 1620mv and calculated 1224fps @100y vs the 1190 you measured. If I drop the BC to 0.135 100y vel. is 1210. For comparison, the 240gn hornady XTP mag has a BC of 0.16 and would give 1262 @100y. If I gave the bullet a BC of 0.183 that matched your deep curl, the 100y vel. would be 1300fps which is the same as your 41 mag numbers as you would expect.

0.18 BC for a pistol bullet is pretty good. The 0.452 deep curl 250gn has a BC of 0.165. I think what you are seeing for velocities is just a difference in BC values. This is impacted by bullet shape and material. The 300gn Swift A-Frame in 453 has a 0.129 BC. The Lehigh 300gn match solids have a 0.21 BC (would give you a bit over 1300@100y).

Incidentally, CEB recommends a minimum terminal velocity of 1500fps for their FB 452 250 Cu RAPTOR (which they say is for the 450 bushmaster) to function as intended on impact. Have you tested it on any water jugs or other things at 100y to see how it performs?

FYI The Barnes 250gn has a 1050fps minimum recommended velocity. @ 1600fps mv you get ~1080fps at 150y.

Karl-Thankyou very much for the research and data.The C.E.B. bullets that I am using are the handgun raptors,they don't give terminal velocity for.I did shoot a water jug at 65 yds and found 3 petal holes in the remains of the jug as they say it will perform.The flat base bullets that you describe are rifle bullets.As for the barnes I can't get them to group under 4" at 100yds.The C.E.B. bullets are giving me consistent groups 2" and under using 17.8 grains of power pistol so I'm sticking with that load. I don't think I can do better than that.

Ahh, I found the bullets you are shooting. I would imagine they have a much lower terminal velocity requirement. They are also pretty blunt and rough so it I could easily imagine a pretty low BC value for them. Best of luck and let us know how it works out!

I understand on the Barnes, just threw it in for comparison on terminal velocity and range. I've only sent a couple down range with optics as I hope to use them with iron sights which will impose a much more limited distance for me.

The Barnes shoot great at 50yds. so I ran out and bought all I could find at the time!Only to find out they wouldn't group at 100.So I bet you'll have good luck with them with irons.I am still open for any load suggestions for them as I have more than I would like to admit.

I got the recipe from another HHM user here in the reloading data section of the site. I posted the details back to the database. I use H110 to get ~1600 fps in a relatively mild load that is a little bit below min from the Barnes published data in s SRH.

Karl-I've tried h110 with 250 grain barnes in .5 grain increments from 27.0-29-0 and gotten 1530-1720 fps respectively, according to my notes all have given me under 1.5" accuracy at 50 yds but 4"-6" accuracy at 100.Oh how nice it would be just to stuff your favorite bullet in case full of H110 and go huntin'!!

Would be nice, but where would be the fun in not having a shooting/reloading project to keep you busy and out of trouble during the off season? My wife is a little more allowing when I say I have a purpose to my range trips.

Are you intentionally keeping the velocity low to limit recoil like me? The Barnes loaddata runs from 29.5 to 32.8. I seem to remember that more velocity may increase stabilization at longer ranges.

YES! and also I don't like compressed loads and 32.8 grains with the barnes is very compressed.

and depending on what kind of brass you are running (Barnes data uses Winchester) you can't (in my experience) fit all of that H110 in Starline cases and not deform the hollowpoint pretty badly.
I wrote Barnes about my experience using starline brass and they stated that the Starline brass obviously has less case volume than the WW because they did not experience any of those issues.

The Tech did say because of the smaller case volume, less powder should create the same velocities as the larger case with higher powder charges. interesting stuff!

If you are looking to get rid of those XPBs I may know a buyer!

Case volume with the loaded bullet plays a huge roll in velocities. If you ignite the same amount of powder in a smaller volume the pressure gets higher and pushes the bullet faster. If you ever do some extrapolating between loads and different bullets, you need to pay attention to where the back of the bullet is between the different loads and what the available volume is inside the case. As Barnes said, different case brands play a roll too. Internal ballistics in a gun is a fascinating subject with lots of nuances.

If you do want to sell the XPB's i would take a few but am not planning on shooting a lot of them.

I dropped the charge from 32.8 to 28.5 and it was still compressed and I was getting the same velocity,a different brand of case won't make that much difference when you're that compressed, Barnes missed on that one,thats why you have to start low and work up!

LIGHT FOR LENGTH REVOLVER BULLETS DISAPPOINT IN MV. MANY YEARS AGO I HAD BARNES MAKE ME 500 45 CAL 260gr (MAYBE THEY WERE 265gr) WFN MONO-METAL BULLETS. I COULD GET 2,000fps WITH THE FA 260gr BULLET IN AN 8 3/8ths INCH MODEL 83 BUT THAT WAS WAY TOO FAST FOR THAT BULLET SO I WAS LOOKING FOR BULLET INTEGRITY AND HIGH VELOCITY. TO MY DISAPPOINTMENT, I COULD ONLY GET THE BARNES UP TO AROUND 1,800fps, NOT BAD BUT NOT WHAT I WAS LOOKING FOR.

I will try them in my .460 Encore when I can find some. I have been shooting the Barnes XPB 200 grain copper bullet with H110 in my 460 Encore since I got it. Best accuracy, fast and hits hard. I have had no deer or hogs walk away with one of the 200grn XPB in them.
I tried heavier bullets but didn't find the accuracy. Might have tried more loads but when I have this load that does it all for me, I'm sticking with it. I wouldn't be worried to try it on Elk or game of that size. I'm not sure what velocity I'm running with the 200's but it works.
I did load some XTP's and they shot good but are a little slower according to the Hornady manual.
Mike

Have you tried the 250 grain XPBs in your .460? I personally would be much more comfortable with that bullet over a 200 grainer on elk. JMHO.

I think you may be right. Trying to get rifle speeds out of a revolver just doesn't seem to work well. I guess we will have to see how things go with this new line.

I brought this topic back up with a little food for thought. I think some may learn something from this and others find this information interesting. Larry Kelly used a 200 gr bullet (208 gr to be exact) to kill a Bull Elephant with his 44 Mag..yes, the bullet was a bronze, tungsten core bullet, but it was 200 gr and penetrated the vitals of an Elephant. Depending on bullet material, weight is not always a limiting factor.

That is interesting Franchise.

I recently read JD Jones and Larry Kelly's book "Hunting for Handgunners" (good read by the way!) and was suprised to read that Larry did a lot of his hunting exploits with fairly light weight bullets in the 44 Magunum. From what I read he used 240gr bullets pretty extensively.

I really like the concept of the Hornady Handgun hunter bullets, and I hope they do as well as they claim.

Put a tungsten core in one of those and they would be unstoppable! haha

LOL...if only...too bad bronze bullets with tungsten cores are outlawed...which is really kinda crazy

Pigman hunted with these very bullets on tonight's show...y'all need to watch this episode

I recorded and then watched that episode today. The wound channels that their pigs demonstrated with the 44 Mag load were impressive.

I have no experience with mono metal bullets, and I know that the Barnes have demonstrated that mono metals can function like a heavier cup and core bullet, but I just can't get past the light weight and long bearing surface of solid copper. I was excited when I read that Hornady was releasing an ammo line specifically for us. We should be proud that anyone is catering to us. I won't lie, I was disappointed when I discovered Hornady had chosen to go solid copper. I am currently enamored with bonded hollow points in my .44, and hoped for an improved XTP. I think most can agree the XTP is accurate. I understand the drama and discord surrounding the XTP is inconsistent, over/under expansion, or even jacket seperation. I think bonding can address these shortcomings. I really believe bonded and jacketed hollow points of standard weight pushed fast is where it's at.

Perhaps a Hornady XTPB&J?