.500S&W for moose or elk?

I'm considering beginning applying for the ME or NH moose permit lottery this year. During the time before I'll actually get a tag (why, only some 7-10 years statistically

The 460 is marketed as a long range deer gun but it is a 454 on steroids and the 454 has shown itself capable of the most dangerous game on the planet. The key to the 460 is to get away from the kiddy bullets in the 200gr range and go back to true 45 caliber hunting weights. The 460 I had would shoot moa with 260gr Nosler Partitions at 1980fps. If you like hardcast then go to 300+ grains and it will be a hammer. Having owned the 500 also I have not doubts of it's power but again it seems to come into its own with 400gr plus fodder. Both guns will do the job very effectively but as in all cases bullet structure and shot placement are key. I personally gave up both x frames and went back to big bore single actions because of the weight of the gun itself but both cartridges are impressive and once my wrists are fixed I'm seriously considering one of Reeders BMF revolvers in 475 Max or 500 S&W, I had considered the 500 Max but bullet availability for the S&W is much greater.

Rod, this is not good medicine for your wrist...LOL

I have used the .475 Linebaugh and .500 WE not for moose but for elk, bison, and large bears. The .500 S&W is certainly plenty adequate. I would much prefer it to the .460.

Rod you don't listen to your doctors do you? I've shot an X-frame not owned one. They're just too big. I think the power is a no brainer. 454 & up seems more a matter of what caliber you like & what platform you want it in. Elephants were taken w/44s. No reason you can't do a moose w/it. Don't your countrymen use the 6.5X55? Not really a hammer.

I don't like doctors but I figure for what they charge to put the titanium in me I should indestructable

Look on the bright side Rod, you can have fun with a new gun, but if it messes up your wrist you get to go see the physical therapist again! Its a win-win situation!

LOL, didn't think about that but the wife may skin me alive.

This begins to look like thread hijacking!

OK guys...that's enough pickng.

The 6,5x55 is certainly the classic Swedish moose round. And yes, it's not a very powerful cartridge (although I believe it delivers about twice as much energy as a .44mag). Given the proliferation of wild boar in Sweden many hunters are switching to the .30-06 or larger.

Well, not that I mind....

I know you use a 44 Mike. That being the case. You know there is a difference between "energy" & the ability to kill or lethlality (that a word?). No one I know has ever been able to quantify that though. Energy/veleocity being a constantly diminishing aspect. Yet big slow rounds that penetrate w/boring consistency are always proven performers. That 6.5 of your ethnic origin kills so well because of it's wonderfully high sectional density. All out of proportion to it's ballistics. Full circle. Penetration is the real killer. Arrows, spears, swords, etc. Truth is you want a new gun! Bigger can be cool though. LOL

Taylor Knock Out Value and the Thornily Relative Stopping Power methods are better gauges for heavy/slow projectiles than FPE. There is a Taylor KO calculator on this site and Thornily RSP is on Beartooth Bullets site.

http://www.beartoothbullets.com/rescources/index.htm

I've used them before. They certainly make sense. And it would seem to me they are quite usefull. The problem is they're not backed up by proven science. Even though they're backed up by 100's if not thousands of kills. Anybody here whos slammed any big game w/a handgun can probably attest to the killing power. To quote my best friend Beau the first time he hunted & killed a deer w/a 44 handgun using a 300 gr WFNGC. "Boy that round puts em down right now." Prior to that he'd always used a 12ga w/slugs. Then again the toughest thing I've shot were hogs. Plenty of you out there killing the big meany's w/revolvers!

Mike,

I used my 500 S&W with a Lee cast 440, actual wt. 465 gr for my bison. It took 1 shot at 76 lasered yds, with the bull moving toward me at a quartering angle. The round entered and broke the left shoulder, passed through the top of the heart and left lung, through the diaphram into the gut and found it in the right hind quarter under the hide. The bison was 1232 pounds. The round chronos at 1400 fps. This would be more than adequate for a moose. The distance for a ME moose hunt generally will be less than 100 yds. In truth the 44 with the right bullet would be fine; however, it does satisfy the yearn ( necessity )for a new gun.

Doc, and others,

well, of course a new gun is always a great thing...

The .44 will take moose with no problem. Its been used to take every game animal on the planet including elephant. It has been over-shadowed by bigger and badder rounds in the last few years, but its still a great hunting round and one of my favorites. I have not had a chance to hunt them yet, but in my experience, its not difficult to get within 50 yards a moose in most situations. A heavily constructed bullet at that range and under will do the job. I wouldn't count out your .44, but then again, like you said, a new gun is always a great thing!

The 500gr Hornadys should make a couple holes through almost anything you point it at.

Ouch! I can feel the recoil already....

Mike... what about the 460 S&W?

I've been thinking of it - and tested it quite recently in the US - and it's a very interesting caliber. I'm not convinced that the difference between a .460 and my hotter .44 loads is that big at shorter distances. At least not big enough compared to the problems getting either a .460 or a .500 here - a lot of red tape is in my way for either, for various very stupid reasons. So if I'm going to go through that I'm considering going for a .500 just for the fun of it....but a .460 might be a more rational choice. I simply haven't made up my mind yet. And still, getting a moose with my .44 is certainly an appealing idea.....

That sounds like the same reasons I am not getting a 454. My SRH with my 300gr XTP’s are in lower to mid range of the 454’s. I already have enough firearms that “cross over,” I would rather focus on what I have.

Exactly. A .500 would certainly make a difference, though....we'll see....

I have found in my experiences that there is a definite and noticeable step up from a .44 to the various .45 calibers. That said, I don't think they need to be pushed as hard as a lot of folks do. I have never seen an animal impressed with velocity, but they sure take notice to heavy, large caliber bullets.

I think the .500 would be great moose and elk medicine. Heavy hardcast flat point at moderate velocity and you'll get end to end penetration........

JMHO.

Don't forget the 825 Magnum!

Can't really argue with a half-inch hole!

I agree 100%! I don’t like loading over “book” loads and I certainly don’t like pushing a cartridge beyond its designed specifications. However, I don’t argue with the 100 yard results of a max load in a 44. If I need a faster harder hitting round I will certainly look at a new firearm.

I agree that the 500 S&W is an impressive round. IMO to get the best performance from it, a heavy jacketed/expanding bullet would be the best choice for large wound channels while still giving deep penetration. I have only shot one elk with a .50 cal bullet (muzzleloader with a 444 gr non-expanding connical at 1900 fps) and was not impressed with the hard bullets performance. A few years back JD Jones wrote an article listing what he called the Eight Great Truths of Terminal Ballistics. Not trying to start a cast vs jacketed debate, this article just backs up what I have learned from my own experiences.

Eight Great Truths of Terminal Ballistics by JD Jones

1. If the shot is poorly placed, an animal is likely to be lost.

2. An exit wound usually bleeds much more than an entrance wound.

3. The differences in bullet diameter and velocities of .44 to .50 caliber revolvers is minimal, normally unrecognizable in either animal reaction or wound examination.

4. Jacketed expanding bullets create more tissue damage resulting in faster death and greater chance of animal recovery than non-expanding bullets, which just drill a small hole.

5. Roundnose cast or FMJ jacketed bullets, both of which are designed for sheer penetration, are not very effective in ordinary deer hunting; they kill, but you seldom recover the animal.

6. Increasing the velocity of a cast bullet by using it in a single-shot, like a T/C chambered in .44 Magnum or .444 Marlin, does little to increase its lethality. The opposite is true with a jacketed expanding bullet; lethality is greatly increased.

7. Iron sights result in poor shot placement compared to a dot or scope sight.

8. Normally you get much better results with a jacketed expanding bullet, but shot placement is critical with anything. A knife in the heart is more effective than 10,000 ft/lbs in the ass.

There are a lot of point that are right on Pab! Nothing can make up for pour shoot placement. There are exceptions to ever rule but I think, overall, those are not bad.

As far as I am concerned, note this is my .02 and it is still as far as I am concerned, the biggest advantage of a bigger caliber is the advantage of shooting a heavier projectile. There are still advantages of shooting a larger diameter bullet but you are not taking total advantage of a big bore if you are not shooting its heavier bullets.

I will reiterate. When starting with a half-inch hole, no need for expansion. That said, expanding bullets at handgun speeds don't penetrate relaibly and if the bullet encounters heavy bone, all bets are off. Heavy hardcasts break bones and two holes are to be expected.......

Not stating a pissing contest, but I don't know any hardcore handgun hunters that use anything but flat-point hardcas bullets on really big game where penetration is at a premium......

First off and most important… sorry Mike. I didn’t mean to start this hijacking on your post.

Second, Whitworth, thank you! I do not disagree with anything you have said concerning big boars. I have confused the issue by using the 7mm TCU as an example. Using a smaller bottle neck cartridge really confused the expansion issue! I sincerely apologize for that and thank you contributing to the forum!!!

Third, this is a forum. If we are here to start peeing contests, we don’t need to be here… in fact we are here to listen and learn from each other.

Alright, now that that is out of the way…

I don’t have, nor do I want to feed, a 500. I have shot several and even have done research on bullets. But it is just more than I want to spend on ammo. With that being said, the biggest I have is a 45-70. For its velocity I like to shoot hard cast. To me that is doing what I have been preaching and have posted several times today alone. Matching bullet weight, velocity and caliber! I am not starting a peeing contest, I am agreeing with you 100% on this point! Whitworth, if you don’t see that please let me know. On the other hand, out of my 44, I shoot a 300 XTP. And for anything that I will have the ability to hunt with that SRH in the US, that is more than adequate for me. The fact is if we all the same, we would all shoot the same gun in the same caliber with the same ammunition. Thank the Lord we are not.

There are quite a few (several here) who do. IMO, Partitions are one of the best bullets for big game with a handgun. You get the benefit of an expanding bullet with the penetration of hardcast. I shoot 300 grain Partitions in my .45-70 and .454s and have 100% confidence in them. I do use hardcast bullets for bear protection in my RH also. Both jacketed and hardcast have their uses.

I've seen first hand what a shot thats off just a little with a hardcast and an expanding bullet do, normally the cast bullet you end up with a long tracking job or a lost animal but the high quality jacketed bullets give you hydrostatic shock which will kill an animal quickly and many times even if you make a poor shot. Hard cast used properly should hit the shoulders and break the animal down and while a shot into the vitals with one is fatal it normally ends up running a ways before dropping, not always but most of the time. Here in oregon solids are illegal but you can get around it with hardcast because it's written as full jacketed ammo but a hardcast will act just like full jacketed ammo especially if they have the same style meplat. I'm all for hard casts on big animals with guns that don't have the ability to push a quality jacketed bullet deep enough. The 44 and 45's benefit on large game such as elk or moose and the big boomers, 454 on up can go either way depending on hunting conditions and range of shots. The two x frames I had I used the 260gr Partition in the 460 and the 400gr sierra in my 500 and I have no doubt either gun would have smoked and elk and done it more efficiently than a hard cast. I think Mark Hampton was right on the nose when he said a broadhead kills more efficiently than a hardcast, and the reason for that is you have 2 to 4 blades causing massive hemmoraging as they pass through. The hard cast have a place but they are not the best answer all the time and with bullet quality and the power of our new cartridges they are the right bullet even less of the time. I'd consider elk huntig with my 475 with hardcast since I would expect to shoot out to 100yds but I'm not convinced my 400gr XTP Max won't do the job just as well and my short 475 back up gun carries the XTP's because if I get in trouble with a cat or bear which is not that uncommon around here I want the hydrostatic shock to stop the charge first and foremost, I don't want to put a 475 cal hole from one end to the other and have him die after he's done chewing on me.

I perform a necropsy on every animal I shoot as I always want to see what my bullet is doing. Big meplats do a heck-of-a-lot of internal damage. There's nothing clean about the wound they create.

Now, with regards to penetration, I have conducted lots of penetration tests on various media as well as animals, and there is no way on God's green earth that an expanding bullet can compete with a hardcast flat-point. But, it's not supposed to. I can live with that! Hollow points scrub off speed and momentum at a high rate when they open up.

I tested 400 grain XTPs in my .475 and they only went 11-inches in wet news print whereas my 420 grain WFNs went more than 40-inches. I like expanding bullets on thin skinned animals like deer, but I just don't trust 'em on large, thick-skinned animals.

Sorry in advance for the graphic photo, but this is a hog I shot a number of years ago, and this photo shows where the front leg used to be. I pulled it off with a gentle tug when skinning it. Hardcast flat-point bullet at 1,300 fps. They break bones with aplomb and do damage all out of proportion to what you would think they do. Plus, you don't have to choose your shots as much knowing your bullet can go end to end on an animal. Make mine hardcast every time.

Again, not trying to be contrary, so please don't read my posts as such. I think you have a great site here and I am happy to be here!

I agree on the penetration issue but that's why you have to match the bullet to the game, the cartridge and conditions. I by no means am down on hard cast I've got several hundred loaded for my 475s and I also have 44 and 45 colt loads and I just bought some 187's for my 357 to try out. But when the gun has the power and you have a bullet like the Partition which in my opinion is the best handgun bullet made it will drive deep, retain it's weight and deliver devastating internal injuries. The biggest thing is we are all human and we will blow a shot sooner or later and odds are a gut shot elk thats been hit with a partition is going to be easier to recover than one gut shot with a solid because as nasty as it is to clean up they don't go far with there gut blown apart or hanging out. My first shot on my Roosevelt this year was with a 350gr hornady round nose running 1900fps in 45-70, the shot was at a moving animal and I hit too far back but the bull went down and once he got up he never ran again, he just milled through the heavy stuff showing me his but which I grazed but then he finally turned quarter away and I took a rib going in, the heart, another rib and I found the bullet barried in the off shoulder bone and I had to use a chisel to get it out. That was a round nose soft point and a bullet I don't consider to be on the premium end but it's what was available to load at the time. The thing is at handgun velocities the XTP Mag and the Partition especially don't blow apart and I have the the Mags act like solids out of my 475's and have very little expansion and I'm running them at normal velocities between 1200 and 1400 fps. But the bottom line is use what you want and what you have confidence in, I look at the basic physics and animal anatomy to make my decisions and so far I'm doing pretty good with a few botched deals here and there but like I said we are all human and you will screw up sooner or later.

I used to be one who taylored loads to game, but have gotten to the point now where I find the one load that will work under the most adverse conditions and I stick with that. Then there's no re-sighting the weapon, andyou can really maser a load that you use a lot. So, I find the one load/bullet that will take the biggest and hairiest animal and that is the one I use for everything. But that's a personal quirk, LOL!!

LOL I can definitely relate to that. I do keep two loads for my big guns, a dangerous game load with hard cast and the other with jacketed bullets and your right the sighting back in is a pain, I normally count turns but it never fails I always have to spend a little time getting dialed right back in where I want it. Right now I'm in the process of building a 500 Linebaugh and it will shoot strictly hard cast and be for the biggest nastiest stuff walking.

A JHP will not penetrate as much as a quality JSP or Partition. I limit myself to broadside heart/lung shots on game so excessive penetration is not needed. With grizzlies around, I do like the fact that the 320 gr hardcast bullets from my Redhawk with break bones and give the deep penetration needed for head on shots.

I too am in the process of building a .500 LInebaugh! Let's hear the particulars! Sorry about the thread hi-jack!

Amen to that!

Oh know… we have another “Rod” on forum… AH!

Whitworth, you and Rod have more in common than you think. Go look at his 475’s on the bragging board. He also has some other playtoys he has been tinkering with!

Mike, have you made your mind up yet or have we just confused the heck out of the issue?