FREEDOM ARMS LAWSUIT

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bD6m-oGUDlI

Check this uploaded video I just found. Try to stay through the beginning.

Ya, that got posted in the FA hammer position while hunting? thread.

Still a good post!! Just thought you might like to see what some of the users here were saying about it... FWIW...

Tnx for the info. I missed that post. Being fairly new to the FA that I just purchased keeps me on this board. I would eventually like to get one in .45 Colt. Mine is a .44 Magnum. I do find that it takes a little effort to seat my reloads after a few cylinders though. It likes to be clean. I have read the manual twice and probably will do so again. Kinda hesitant to break it down into pieces to see its guts yet. I think I read everything I could about FA before buying it. Since I have been shooting it, about 300 rounds so far, I did have on 1-2 occasions have the trigger fail to stay in full cock, kind of like something was misaligned. Maybe you can help me on that. Since that has happened, I am fairly careful cocking it as I keep my finger off the trigger and it feels awkward holding it in a way I feel is less secure. By off the trigger I mean outside the guard. Yeah, I don't want this thing going off without a good grip. Last, I only carry with four in and over none. I guess I need to find a good holster.

If you are having a mechanical issue with that FA, you should return it post haste. Freedom Arms will be more than happy to remedy the problem.

They state they are not anti-gun but I have a hard time believing that. The host at one point says he thinks it's rediculous to own a handgun that large and referring to a scoped 44 sbh as a dirty harry gun. I also found it interesting that they found the sporting goods store responsible in the lawsuit. Nowhere does it mention the owner of the gun who was carrying the gun with the hammer on a loaded chamber. If I'm not mistaken FA recommends that you carry a model 83 on an empty chamber. IMO it's up to the owner of the firearm to know their weapon and how to carry it safely.

I think it may be me that is doing something wrong after I change cocking positions. It's only happened twice. So I'm going to dig out the manual and read it through again since I have the day off and the wife is at work. Wish I could spend the 4th with her.

Lefty:



The question is can a person reasonably expect a 5-shot revolver to be carried with 5 rounds? $1.7 Million dollars later and one case closed answered the question. Looks like a lucrative profession, product liability law.

Can a person reasonably expect to drive their car on the highway at 185MPH because that's how fast the car will go and that's the highest number on the speedometer. No of course not. What is reasonable is that the person will read the owners manual and follow all safety rules when operating dangerous equipment. If someone gets caught speeding does the car get a ticket?

That whole segment is about as anti-gun as anything I've seen.

EXACTLY! And the guy carrying the gun should have been held more responsible. He is the one who should have read the owners manual.

The program was NOT anti gun.
I have worked on many Freedom guns and have posted problems to the extent I made enemies and have been booted from sites.
The hammer block of the 83 can fail but so can the transfer bar of the 97. It is hard to explain to some when I push a hammer on a 97 to see the firing pin protrude.
I have seen parts wear in few shots where the internal parts fail.
The guns are unsafe period! They are too complicated to save paying royalties for better designs. Freedom admits they are not safe with WARNINGS. That INCLUDES THE 97 WITH THE TRANSFER BAR.
Old Colts were only safe with nothing under the hammer and Freedom with all of the hammer blocks and transfer bars are no better.
They can NOT repair existing guns in any way so a recall is useless. The system they use is wrong and can not be corrected until they go to the Ruger/BFR system.
S&W has lived forever with a sure hammer block. A Ruger or BFR will NEVER fire if dropped and all chambers can be loaded.
But did you know even if you have an empty under the hammer of a Freedom, if you snag the hammer enough to rotate the cylinder and it falls, it will go off? Some love the safety notch on the hammer but it can kill you.
Defend your Freedom but you might be the next to file suit.

IMHO the problem is the money hungry lawyers. If the owner’s manual states not to carry said gun with a round under the hammer. Well there you go.

PS, I have a friend we call Lucky Dave Cox that has been shot twice by handguns that have failed when they were dropped. One was a S&W and the other was a Ruger. His right leg is gone below the knee and he wears a prosthetic. FWIW… (Ps, the other shot was in the neck and he was really lucky. It was just a scratch.)

I am not trying to debate; I have known you too long to think I can change your mind. I am just saying “stuff happens.”

Duane

Well, accidents do happen, that's why they are called accidents. Everyone makes them. Most don't suffer such terrible end results and it's only human nature I guess to blame someone or something other than yourself. That being said, you cannot fix stupid. I don't totally fault Lawyers, when you need one they are good to have around. Judges and juries are equally at fault trying to set precedent or correct society to their view of the way the world should turn. I would like to say I didn't post this to start an argument. I appreciate everyones viewpoint. However, if I buy a Ruger and get shot, I'm suing all you Ruger fans. Naw, that won't work:)

I don't own an FA or many revolvers at all. But it seems to me that there are a certain number of people in the world, who seem to think it is their job to save us from ourselves. They would like to outlaw smoking, chewing tobacco, fireworks and even charcoal grills, you can't buy a decent gas can to save your soul, all these damn spill proof spouts. All vehicles must have shoulder harnesses and countless air bags, the world lacks a little common sense and suffers from a "It's not my fault, so I'm going to file a suit" mentality. Think I'll go running with a pair of scissors, while drinking scalding hot coffee from Micky D's and when I trip and fall, blame the person who paved the road I'm on.

I disagree, accidents don't just happen. They are innitiated by inattentiveness or ignorence, or both. Nearly every "accident" could have been avoided if those involved had had their heads in the moment. A drunk teenager kills a family of four last summer with his car and it was called a terrible accident, but there would have been no "accident" had the teen not been drinking. Same with guns, if you can't follow the guidelines and get shot it is no accident. It is stupidity!

I think we need to rerofit some lawyers. You can teach safety but you can't teach common sense.

Joe W

Original Rugers were based on the Colt and had to have an empty under the hammer. They fixed it. There is no way for a Ruger to go off unless the trigger is pulled. Safe guns need to have the trigger pulled.
The Freedom suit was justified. Even after, they make the same gun. It can NOT be fixed in the present form. It must go to the Ruger transfer bar system.

I find the debate of the safety (or lack thereof) of the FAs very interesting. I am wondering why no one has mentioned the "lack of safety" associated with the old TC Contenders. They are very dangerous in the wrong hands, but I still prefer them to the G-2 and the encore.

I will keep my old contender frames (and remember to break it) and my FAs & load 4. I have yet to fire 4 rounds from any of the FAs at any one animal on a hunt. Actually, two is my personal max on one animal.

Here we are with this mysterious hammer snagging bull crap again. If you've got a proper holster and have it secured the hammer can't be cocked. There is nothing wrong or unsafe about a Freedom Arms. If there is a problem look to the owner.

Good thinking and I agree. The problem is those with no experience or think they are not included in warnings.

Actually, there was at least one lawsuit vs. T/C and the original Contender, reported in the Wall Street Journal a few years ago.
An avid hunter and gun owner from the Charlotte N.C. area as I recall, bent over while hunting and his Contender fell from a shoulder holster, striking the ground. It discharged and killed him.
T/C said that couldn't happen. Then during the Discovery phase, it came to light that T/C had made a video to prove it couldn't happen. They dropped a Contender and then picked it up. A staff member was said to exclaim off camera "Oh ^%$*&, it fell", referring to the hammer.
I think it is a correct statement that with the surfacing of the video, the case was settled out of court.
Nevertheless, I'm keeping all my old Contender frames too, and consider them outstanding single-shots.

So he was carrying it in a holster with the hammer back?

No, the design is also wrong. No safety notch on a hammer is safe if the gun falls and hits the hammer. Remember, Do you feel lucky, punk?

I have an early Contender frame and for the hammer to contact the ground when falling inverted the gun has to be nearly horizontal, unless it were to hit a rock just right. That is like a lottery win in reverse, tough luck.

[quote=s4s4u]

I disagree, accidents don't just happen. They are initiated by inattentiveness or ignorance, or both.

Then there must be no accidents at all. That's good to know. Now I have an explanation for all these golf balls hitting my house:). I will agree that not everything is an accident. Only a root/cause analysis could determine whether there is one or not. Hmmm, maybe. However, more to the point is this guy got a good lawyer to sue the biggest pocket, in this case the seller of the pistol, not manufacture. Whatever he did to the handler of the pistol is unknown? Obviously, he said it wasn't HIS fault. The gun just went off. Whatever. However, the guy who shot him did what many would do. Blame someone/something else. Even here we in some disagreement on fault. What I take on this is the Rules Of Gun Safety are there to protect me and others. Hey, Be careful and Good Shooting.

Yeah, hackers! Not building a house on a golf course would also aleviate this problem.

I don't live on the course. I'm across the street 30 yards from the tee. See, things aren't always as they appear. LOL If I shot any of my guns like they play golf, I'd be locked up.

I live in a golfing community as well. About the same distance from the fareway as you. I have never seen a golf ball in my yard. We must have better golfers here. LOL.

As far as a TC going off and someone walking around with a holstered TC with the hammer back, all I can say is you can't fix stupid. But some times stupid fixes itself!

Dang! But if those idiots didn't hit those errant balls you wouldn't be getting hit. Cause and effect.

We just havin' fun ;-)

Yep.

No, the hammer was not back. As someone suggested above, it might have been a fluke. But he's dead.
Remember, I'm not condemning original pattern Contenders. They're my favorite Single-Shots.

Roger that!

Makes me glade I sent my two old Contender frames back in to be retrofitted...

I have owned every kind of gun. No accidents. All are safe if you know them. Some fail if dropped just right. Do NOT drop them.
But you see there are boobs out there. They also vote.
Would I feel safe with a Freedom? Yes of course but the general public is more stupid then we think.
It was like training in the army, training was geared to the most stupid of the stupid. Those that knew HATED class work.
I owned contenders and never thought they were a danger. Neither were Colts, three screw Rugers or any other gun.
Yet even the best of us can be killed or injured from a gun that is not made as safe as it could be made. All of you are human, prone to mistakes. How many woodworkers lose fingers in a saw?
None of us is holier then thou!

430,

I was going to stay out of this thread, as I thought I made my points in the other one. Pretty much as you noted. Load a gun, any gun, and an accident can happen, and hurt or kill someone. The first rule, above all of the normal 10 point or 5 point gun handling rules is to know the gun, and completely understand how it works. I feel safe carrying an old style lever gun on half cock. But I know if I drop it on the hammer it might go bang. I would never run with said gun, chambered.

Same with handguns. If I holster it, I use the retention device. PERIOD. None of this "well I am only gonna crawl/walk/run a little closer and I do not want to spook/slow presentation if I need to shoot in a hurry" nonesense. It is the wood workers or gun owners who are not trained properly or get in a hurry and cut corners that get burned. Being safe while hunting when your heart and brain are racing a mile a minute takes training and concious effort. So to supplement my first point of knowing your gun, folks need to think just as much about knowing themselves, and how they react or make decisions.

Craig

Exactly

Sounds like Sara Brady or Hillary Klinton talking.
Steve

and yes, that video does have anti gun sentiment. you hear the boob refer a few times to "how powerful" that gun is and implications in his tone and words as to how freedom arms was somehow wrong for making pistols that powerful.

bottomline is if ya don't follow the instructions it's your fault not the manufacturers. that goes for guns and video games, condoms, etc.

How this video can be construed as anything but anti-gun is beyond my comprehension.

Like everything in this country these days, no one ever takes responsibility for their own failures and stupidity. I have a lot of friends who are attorneys and I never let a day pass that I remind them of this and that its their fault for pushing these frivolus law suits forward and how they have bastardized jurisprudence and the rule of law. It has ruined more then one industry in this country. Sadly things aren't going to change until a new generation of Americans comes along and realizes this fact and does something about it. This freedom arms lawsuit is a prim example of this. Not to mention the fact they have to fight lawyers but the anti gun media as well.

I forget what country has the law, but if you choose to file a lawsuit and lose, you have to pay for the other persons court and lawyer fee's. T
hat would cut down on the bs lawsuits, and maybe have people take responability.

That is a great idea and is common sense......which is why it will never happen here.

Exactly!

Well truth is many countries have this in place. It cuts down on frivolous law suits and keeps the courts from being over whelmed. It also cuts down on the number of attorneys in those countries. This is one aspect of health care that not many will take on in this country due to the fact that lawyers run this country. Folks like John Edwards made their living off of bogus lawsuits that ended up costing all of us everytime we see a doctor. Tort reform would be the best thing to happen to this country. And when someone is stupid enough to shoot themselves with a gun because they didn't take the time to understand the firearm or handled it in a way that lead to their own demise then we should celebrate that moment as freeing up another spot on this earth for hopefully a more intelligent being!

Too bad for FA that's not what a jury thought. They were found "partly" responsible. I don't understand how a company can be found liable if a individual used a item outside the parameters of the owners manual.

Broken system screwing an honest to God "American manufacturing company" building quality american made goods.

just look at the tobacco lawsuits. I use Copenhagen and have for 27yrs and I know the risk and it's one I voluntarily accept. I also smoked for about 10yrs, anyone that says they don't realize it can hurt you is an idiot. I have mixed feelings about asbestos too, yeah in the long run it was found to cause lung cancer but how many lives did it save from fire? The lawsuits I don't have a problem with are the pharmaceutical companies, it's been proven time and again that they will doctor up reports and studies just to get their drug to market and not lose all the money invested in r&d and even after the lawsuits they still make money on drugs that royally screw people up. This country has gone lawsuit crazy, I had a cop tell me once if I ever ran someone over (even if it wasn't my fault) to back over him again because dead men don't sue, of course their family might.

Everyone blames the lawyers for the lawsuits. For them it is a job, a way to make a living. I blame the "idiots" on the jury. They are the ones with the hammer --- they make the decisions.

I once had a PI attorney tell me, "If I could always have a jury wherein no one had more than a 6th grade education, I would win every case." Sit in the jury pool & watch the lawyers pick the ones that they think "cannot think for themselves." That is their job. Those on the jury that usually want to give something to someone are the ones at fault.

It's like they say about anyone not smart enough to get out of jury duty. I'm permanently off now, I told them I had a burr in my saddle with local DA and I figure he's corrupt. I guess they didn't like that because they excused me for jury duty. The thing is though I was serious, I've had dealings with 4 DA's in this state as a witness, plaintiff and defendant and from what I've seen they are all just over ambitious politicians.

I have an easy out of Jury Duty, but I have never used it. I think for me it's the cost of citizenship. My country asked for so little from me even after 20 years in the military. Maybe I'm that guy that can bring some sense to a decision. Maybe not. However, I vote, go to requests for Jury Duty, donate blood, support the police. You know, all those crazy things.

All you have to do to get out of jury duty is to

tell them that you support the idea of

"Jury Nulification."

Which any thinking person would!!

YA isn't that funny how a constitutionally protected right/ check and balance on gung ho prosecuters will get you the boot fatser then saying your a racist.

I know that some states have such provisions for law suits where the loser pays the winners costs

All states should have that. Of those that do, it would be interesting to see if they have a lower rate of lawsuits.

I am willing to bet that's the case.