Any advantage of the 460 Rowland vs 45 Super?

Seems both the 45 Super and 460 are starting to really catch on. Really any advantage of having the 460 Rowland over the 45 Super as a handloader for thehandgun hunter.

What is your hunting platform setup you are using and bullets?

wildchild,

Welcome HHM. Advantage is perceived only. Essentially the same round, edge maybe to the 460 R. Depends more on the gun ( action strength ), barrel length, etc.. I have the 460 in the Glock 21 and a Dan Wesson revolver. I use Starline brass and a variety of bullets, jacketed, cast, and monolithic ( Barnes XPB ).

Doc

Doc,

Thank ya for the welcome! I been wanting a 460, but really reading on load data for the 45 Super and it comes darn close to the 460.
Plus you can get a 9" aftermarket barrel for the G21, that should make the 45 Super come if not pass the 460 in the power n energy department.

Looking at some ballistic charts, it seems the 460 is a bit more powerful, due to being a higher pressure round. However, I doubt any deer would be able to tell the difference between the two, assuming proper shot placement.

Wild,

If you do a little poking on older posts here, we have had more than a few discussions.

I am an avid 460 fan, having converted scads of 1911's. I got into the 45 Super a year or so ago, and am actually preferring the Super.

I think the only upside to the 460 is not being able to chamber it in a standard 45 acp gun that is not rated or set-up for the Rowland. This is not a minor consideration, but for many not critical. The brass is basically the same between the two, made by the same company, and about the same availability. A wash.

I find that the longer Rowland brass can actually be a problem in guns with magazines. As the oal of the mag sets the max cartridge OAL, this can work against you with some bullets. Some 230's and most that are heavier. For the amount and type of powder that is suitable, case volume is of no concern as a comparison.

I picked up a N frame S&W earlier this year, a 625 PC in 45 acp, and am going to town with Supers right now. These revolvers have been chambered for the 460, but no way I am going to do that. I have a reamer and could, but I see no reason.

I could go on and on.......

Craig

If I'm not mistaken, you can run the Super with a standard barrel where the Rowland requires the brake. I am thinking of Super-sizing an MPA10 just for fun.

Rod,

The brake is essential for the 1911 platform, in my experience of shearing one barrel lug without brake ;^) And I like the Clark compensated 45 acp barrel for the same reasons in the 1911 with fast stepping supers. Hint, hint, any 1911 barrel can be converted to a Rowland with a simple reamer operation. I mention this as it would be possible to have a ramped compensated barrel for example from another maker. I have reamed a couple of Clark standard 45 acp barrels and end up with a Rowland twin. Same everything, including throating, link, etc.

There are so many guns running supers and Rowlands now, I think it not so much a situation where the Rowland requires the brake, as much as possibly the platform. I would not think my 625 revolver would in any way benefit from a brake, unless I was trying to get split times down......I took a quick look at the MPA 10. It looks like a straight blowback? Might be a candidate for upgraded springs ;^) I would be worried with straight blowback of possibly blowing a casehead.

Craig

There is a vid of one chambered in the Rowland so I figure the Super should work. Not sure of the specfics. I think it would make a great little night time high cap pig hammer. I can drill my 50 yard berm in total darkness ;-)

Rod,

I am sick sometimes. When I saw the gun after your post, I thought of the local news reporting camo glad gangster drive by shooting a family of pigs at a water hole. Even youngsters injured. Weapon was reported as full auto assault weapon. Manhunt underway for a neckbeard on an ATV..........

Maybe I wasn't too far off. That's a wild setup.....

Craig

I like to tinker......

The red dot is co-witnessed with the irons so I have backup just in case. I put it together for close range SHTF SBR but if set up for the Super or Rowland it may have a "practical" use.

The comp is a must on the Glock conversions. It delays the action opening and slows down the slide. I have ran the .45 Super and currently the .460 Rowland. If you are staying within pressure specs the Rowland has a sizable energy advantage. The super running in a 6" unvented barrel would spit 185grs at 1325fps safely. The Rowland will launch the same bullet nearly 1700fps. The Rowland will launch 230grs 1450fps. The 265gr Beartooths will leave the tube at 1300+. reflex264

Reflex,

Now see how you are. Just when I have convinced myself not to rechamber my 625 ;^)

Actually, depending on how my gun holds up to the increased banging, I had thought down the road to possibly pick up a really long barreled 45 acp revolver to see what could be done. Or even a 45 Colt revolver, and do the 45acp moon conversion. Could end up with a gun that shoots Colts, acp, super and rowland.

As much as I love the 1911 platform, things get interesting when you move away from it, as you have shown ;^)

Craig

Thank you for the info and the pictures. I was wondering if a 9" G21 barrel shoot in 45 Super will get close to the 460 Rowland. On your block, you use a comp on both the 45 super and 460 Rowland.

Edit: What Barrels and comps are ya using for the 45 Super and 460 Rowland?

It is quite feasable that the 9" barrel could run with the .460. I bought a 460Rowland conversion. Works great. I ran my .45 Super with a non comp 6" barrel and a 24# spring. reflex264

Wild,

a 9 incher would certainly be an interesting project.

As to barrels and comps, in these link/cam guns (1911 and Glock) the brake needs to be a barrel brake, not one of the slide types. The mechanism of why they work is the brake helps keep the nose of the barrel down a tad longer, and pushed forward both helping to delay the unlock. Down is obvious as the gasses vent up, but forward is a little harder to "see'.

On these actions where the slide and barrel move to the rear and unlock, the bullet moves down the bore while the slide and barrel (locked together) start to the rear. As the bullet is moving down the bore, the friction of the bullet in the barrel essentially drags or pulls the barrel forward. On the comps usually used for these, the expanding gasses in the comp vent up pushing the barrel nose down, and the gasses push forward on the rear vertical edges of the comp, again pushing the barrel forward.

In theory, the 9 inch barrel would have more weight in front of the link/cam point, possibly supplying more upward pressure behind the link on the upper barrel lug, and the longer barrel would have more bullet "drag" time. Both of these should work to your advantage.

Might make for an interesting project.

Craig

Here was the super set up. This was a 6" barrel. reflex264

I think both are good options and really I think that for the most part, both are the same.

I tend to prefer the .45 Super for the reason that I don't have to get a special 460 only barrel for it, I use a KKM barrel in my setup which has good support and on top of that, the same setup shoots .45 ACP like a champ. One thing that many aren't aware of is that .45 Super Starline brass is as strong (read: 40K PSI) as their 460 Rowland brass, so both can be loaded equally as long as the same OAL is used.

You can see how much better case support the KKM barrel (left) has over the stock barrel:


Here it is with the standard KKM comp:


Here's a custom comp I had made to slow the slide down even more:


The barrel with threading is right at 5" long, and here's some of the better numbers I've got with it.

(All from a 5" barrel, velocities are averages)

300gr Beartooth hardcast @ over 1,150 fps
275gr Hunters Supply hardcast @ over 1,200 fps
250/255gr JHP/Hardcast at over 1,300 fps
230gr JHP/FMJ over 1,400 fps
200gr JHP at around 1,500 fps
185gr JHP at almost 1,600 fps



(the same setup makes shooting regular .45 ACP feel like a cap gun!)

Adding 4" of barrel is going to bump it up even more, but even still you'll want to get some cuts in the end of that thing to help vent some of the gases.

I like the idea of the Rowland and I do like that its extra case length does prevent it from chambering in the "wrong" guns, but the Super has the advantage of not having to buy a specialized barrel (other than a comped one). Whats even better is that my 5.5" Ruger Bisley convertible with .45 ACP cylinder shoots the .45 SUPER just fine, no sticky extraction at all. As a matter of fact, even out of the KKM barreled Glock the Starline .45 SUPER brass, even load to 460 Rowland levels resizes and passes through the bulge buster easier than regular .45 ACP brass loaded normal....so it's VERY strong brass.

I would say the bright spot with the .45 Super/460 Rowland is in the 250gr+ bullets, because when you start shooting 45 ACP designed bullets 300-400+ fps faster than what they're designed for, that doesn't really make the most sense. With the heavier hardcasts, with either one you wouldn't have to load them to the max to be more than enough for most critters, but with either you've got the ability to load it hotter if you like.

Great post!

My thinking is the 265-270 weight in a large meplat bullet is optimum. It allows the gun to shoot pretty flat. I have shot targets out to nearly 200 yards with mine. Spring for a good set of sights can't be overlooked and the Dawsons will get my money every time. Perfect sight picture for a hunting handgun. After talking to Rowland I had to try the supers and ACPs in my Rowland. Many argued that the only suport for teh striker impact was the extractor. I can tell you that supers and ACPs funtion flawlessly just like they said they would. When using ACPs you need a +p to cycle the gun but other than that in a pinch it works fine. Consider that the 240gr .44 mag load from Black Hills doesn't shoot a 240 as fast as the Rowland shoots a 265gr and that Black Hills load is considered to be a great game killer. reflex264

Great write up and a ton of info also. The pictures are worth 2000 words each.

You ever shot the 460 Rowland without the comp. I shot a 6 barrel one. What cannon.

Never did. Aside from reducing recoil it protects the gun from battering. I have heard a .460 owner that tried it saw it was one of teh most unpleasant handguns he ever shot. reflex264

Thanks....your post kinda made me switch directions and go the 45 super route..... anyone need any 460 R brass...lol

Those velocities you listed.... Is that from 45 super or 460R?