The hypothetical handgun

Going to do some more testing this weekend. Tests have little meaning if you never point them at a critter. Among this weekends test are some penetration with the .475 linbaugh, .480 Ruger, .45 Colt (stretch) and what ever else I dig up. I should note that in testing this stuff there are enough miths floating around to write a books called single action fairy tails. I don't have any unrealistic notions of the .475 out penetrating my .416 Rigby rifle. last time around the .416 out did every pistol we have tried by at least 60" in damp print. The only reasom it didn't beat the pistols by anouther 12" is we ran out of room. If you have never shot a .416 RIgby +P with a 400gr solid it is quite the specticle!! Don't expect anything different this time. What I do hope to do is figure out a comparison index of what it takes to reach water buffalo vitals and destroy them using data that already worked in the .475 then comparing it to the numbers from the ballistic buff. Then all the shooting paper can mean something. Its all fun though!

reflex. I have a Ruger mkII bolt rifle in 416 Rigby and can agree with you about shooting 400gr solid handloads. The scar over my right eye is proof... Will wait to hear about testing. Have fun.....

Reflex, first off, let me say it was a real breath of fresh air to talk to someone who will admit that velocity makes a REAL difference in performance and penetration when it comes to bullet testing! I am speaking of & comparing shooting large diameter, heavy for caliber bullets at various velocities. In my testing of these bullets on dead bovines, I have seen in every instance that when I compare my single shot rounds to different revolver rounds, my single shots win every time. I know that I am comparing "rifle" rounds to "revolver" rounds, but I have been told many, many times how the 475 & 500 Linebaugh's will out penetrate various rifle rounds. In all of my testing I still have not seen any straight wall pistol round that will come close to out penetrating my 376 Steyr with a 300 gr. Barnes banded solid or my 416 Barnes with a 400 gr. DGS bullet. I agree & will agree that dead is dead & a lot of what we shoot will kill anything that walks on this earth, but let's be honest too. I am absolutely not trying to start a debate and I am not going to argue with anyone, we have all done that before. I have seen this in all my testing, but reflex264 takes it to a new and different level. He has shot more animals of varying and different sizes testing bullets to back up his findings. I love all hunting handguns from revolvers to single shots and hunt with them both and they both work great, but let's all be honest and admit that there is not a 45 Colt load that will out penetrate a heavy solid in a 450 Marlin either when they are both pushed to "high" for their round velocities.

It does to a degree. Remember that most revolvers -- not specialty pistols chambered in bottleneck rifle cartridges -- cannot produce really high velocity. They will not necessarily produce deeper penetration gong faster as the resistance climbs with higher impact velocity. I believe, as do others to include John Linebaugh, that there is a bit of a dead zone over a certain velocity where gains are so minimal as to not be worth the added recoil and subsequent punishment. Once you pass that threshold, the gains are more prevalent.

The Linebaugh Seminar results are always interesting particularly when the big-bore rifles are pulled. It's worth going back and looking at the results.

Great topic -- more later after I eat my dinner!

Whit, you are right, this is a good topic. Maybe this topic & different members results will help to educate our members that have still yet to make a handgun kill. I hope that nobody tries to turn this into a jacketed vs. cast debate either. Just compare similar diameter rounds of similar/equal weight at different velocities. Example...44 mag w 300 gr vs 444 Marlin 300 gr with same type bullet in same test media.

As it should be -- calm, cool, and devoid of emotion!

Now comparing rifle cartridges to revolver cartridges is a bit like comparing apples to grapes. Whole different dynamic with the velocity potential of the bottleneck cartridges. The reason a revolver cartridge -- take the .475 Linebaugh for example, can penetrate all out of proportion to its paper ballistics has more to do with the bullet chosen to do the task than anything else. A good nose profile with an adequate meplat will penetrate in a deep, straight line. However, there are a multitude of factors governing the way one round may penetrate compared to another. But, when all is said and done, it's all in the bullet. I tested a .475 Linebaugh many years ago against a .470 Nitro Express double rifle belonging to a friend. The 420 grain bullet at a scorching 1,350 at the muzzle handily out penetrated the .470's 500 grain solid in wetpack. Why? Well, for one, the solid bullet's small meplat was causing the .470 bullets to veer off course, not penetrating straight. Had the .470 been equipped with a better bullet with a better nose profile, the tables may have been turned. It's all in the bullet. There is a reason why Weatherbys had such a hit or miss record in the early days. Bullet design and construction of the day couldn't keep up with the velocity potential, so many a "lesser" cartridge were more reliable killers on game. It's all in the bullet -- I know I am beginning to sound like a broken record.

There is only one reason hardcast bullets are usually kept below a certain velocity threshold. The material is not up to the task of real high impact velocities. The nose profile will degrade and that beautiful, deep penetration causing nose can no longer perform its duty like it could at slower speeds. Keep the speeds down and they penetrate like crazy. However, not all hardcast are the same -- too soft and they distort, too hard and they can be brittle. Many factors here to consider. If you want to ramp speeds up, then moving up to a Punch bullet, CEB solid, or a Barnes Buster is the way to go. Then you can take advantage of a little more speed.

Again, good topic.

At the Linebaugh seminar in Jackson, Miss my 416 Rigby shooting 400 grain solids from Federal factory loads penetrated 46" the 475L penetrated 48" with a 420 grain flat point hard cast, the 525 grain WFN from the 500L penetrated 50" as did the 425 grain flat point hard cast from the 500 JRH.

very interesting. My Rigby has never been out penetrated by anything and and no handgun has ever been close. I am curious abuot the test media. Exactly what did you they use and how did they contain it? I would very much like to duplicate their test media. I did this before with wet news print as described by someone that was at one of John's seminars and he said the same thing happend. Someone one pulled out a .416 Rigby and it was the only thing that exited the box. Not trying to start a argument but would love to dulpicate the exact condidtions where the handguns out penetrated the rifles to see why. reflex264

J. Linebaugh soaks his newsprint for 24 hours from what I understand. It is well worth going back and seeing his test results over the years.

I should add that after testing tons of bullets. loads and media types one thing I ahve learned is that as the tensile strength of the media increases kenetic energy quickly becomes the deciding factor.

As Whitworth described the bullet shape making a difference I was working on a bullet based on the findings from shooting tons of different media types that took into consideration bullet abrasion, nose profile, tensile strength and such like. I called the bullet project X and made the mistake of posting it on the levergunlovers forum. 3 months later a company that I am not allowed to name brought a "new bullet" to the market also supposd to do what I busted my doing the testing for. But it achieved its purpose. The meplat allowed it to penetrate straight and it was strong enough to not deform on the 1500lbs steer knuckles.



If it looks familiar and you wonder if it was really my ideal you can look up the date of my post and the date "they" released the "new" bullet.

This should be interesting. I have never tested bullets in water jugs, like many prefer. I too have used mostly "wetpack". Up at the ranch, where trees are plentiful, I have been known to perforate a few ;^)

My feelings on wetpack are that it is really only useful for comparisons on that day, in that material, as wet and as dense as it is. I usually just try to compare bullets shot side by side, on that day. Maybe there is a way to "calibrate" the amount of moisture that is held by the material, but I have not been able to make it so. I have manged to split a Coleman cooler, back when I first started out ;^) Sterilite tubs are cheaper...

Reflex, I am familiar with your testing posts over on the Marlin Forum, and I suspect that you and John L. have the media part of it nailed down pretty well. Looking forward to see what you post up.

Craig

The newspaper in MS was soaked overnight if I remember correctly. I remember setting up the little kiddy pool down at the range for that seminar that JWP is talking about. It was interesting to see all the tests that were done. Some of them were pretty surprising!

I agree with you completely.

Personally I don't put a lot of stock in tests into static media (not live critters) because I've been mislead by the results too many times. There is just too much inconsistency in the media to be worthwhile and since ballistic gelatin so expensive most of us won't ever use that stuff and it too is very temperamental depending on temperature and probably some other factors. I doubt anyone has a tool that measures the water content in the newspaper either. I've seen some guys videos that are shooting media and shoot it multiple times with different guns and then make some claim... doesn't shooting it once change the dynamic? With that said, we have some great bullets these days in both rifles and pistols.

I have always encouraged everyone I have talked with to do their own bullet testing. Bullet testing as with many other comparisons can be swayed to effect the outcome. If you know the gun or bullet maker personally and are friends with them, if you benefit financially from one bullet or gun doing better in the test, or if you "push" a certain bullet or gun, then one is supplied with them free or at a discounted price I just am very skeptical of the results. Point.....comparing round nose bullets to flat nosed bullets of the same configuration. The results will be swayed and not really accurate. In this Linebaugh Siminar, if the 416 Rigby was shooting a 400 gr Barnes Banded Solid or a Woodleigh Hydrostatically Stabilized Solid, the results would be very different and everyone involved already knows this. A test would need to be conducted by impartial parties without an agenda to push that benefits them financially.

Gary,

No doubt you can get some pretty insane claims. What I find useful is side by side shots comparing what hollow points will do. Mostly just trying to see if pushing one designed for a lesser velocity might get the "inside out" effect. I also like to see what the cavity looks like with lead bullet nose profiles.

I once tested a Beartooth RNFP bullet designed for the 45acp that looked reasonably impressive when run at Rowland velocities. This was compared to a cast performance bullet in the same test. The CP was a known quantity, the rnfp was the unknown. I also ran a RN bullet at the same time. I would go only as far as saying that the BT RNFP was worthy of more testing, and something more than discarding based on the nose profile alone, without testing.

Marshall had recommended this bullet for hunting. I just wanted some kind of validation before working up loads. The problem most of us have is the only sources for how a bullet can be expected to perform is recommendation from the maker, or other users (web or print) or some type of self test.

Occasionaly a bullet comes along that you just "know" needs no testing. I had that with my 458 Socom and a 335 Barnes banded solid. One look at that bullet, and knowing Barnes' reputation and I felt zero need to test, other than for load and functioning. Smacked a nice sized Muley with one a few years ago, and it was DRT.

We're all here to share and learn. And while this type of testing or water testing, or tree testing or butcher bones may not be the final word for anything, it's all adds up to a degree. For some of us it is just another part of the joy of shooting.

Craig

I don't know who this is directed at, but if you are testing and evaluating products for a number of different manufacturers, should you pay for them? I think not. Most of us who do this work would make no money at all if we had to pay for the components as well. I have had a number of bullets/ammo/etc. fail and you won't be reading any praise about them from me or anyone else I know in the business. Who is impartial? We all have our favorites. The key is to present your findings as they are. I personally have developed favorites through testing. When you see what works and what doesn't, it makes you lean in a certain direction.

Remember that it took Woodleigh a long time to get into the current technological advances that companies like CEB, North Fork, etc. embraced a while back. Woodleigh is still looked at with fondness by the guy who is nostalgic enough to use round nose solids in his double rifle, because the original Kynoch ammo used round nosed solids, not knowing that Woodleigh now produces more modern bullets. But don't kid yourself into thinking that most guys shooting solids out of their big-game hunting rifles have accepted the flat-nosed solid. Many are still stuck on nostalgia. Those round nosed solids are notorious for not tracking straight and frankly many flat nosed profiles will handily beat them in a penetration contest.

The current trend is towards flat-nosed profiles for rifles. Do you know where they got that idea? From the handgun hunters who have been using them and have known how effective they are for decades. Elmer Keith knew.......it's about time the rifle guys get with the program!

Hahahahahaha! Don't read too much into that. That was kinda funny. That was directed to any and everybody that reads results from Hornady, Nosler, Speer, and the like. The same goes for gun companies. If they push it, the results will always be in there favor. I seriously doubt that Speer would ever report that Hornady bullets shoot faster and perform better. That just makes good common sense.

One more thought. If you are truly interested in bullet testing, this thread on AR is absolutely worth its weight in gold. It's a long read, but the information is valuable. I know the gentleman who performed all of this testing and he did it independently. His results on wetpack-type material have been confirmed on numerous large wild bovines as well as pachyderms. When Michael heads to Africa to test bullets, he shoots multiple buffalo. I think he is in the triple digits as far as Cape buffalo are concerned. He helped design CEB's nose profiles and he helped North Fork adjust theirs. He had many a long conversation with handgun hunters when he started designing.

http://forums.accuratereloading.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/4711043/m/2861098911

How should they present their own products? In a bad light? No job security in that! Of course the manufacturer is going to talk up their product over the competition, it's only logical. It's what they get paid to do.

It surely read that way.

Media unless you have a way to keep it consistent is pretty much guess work. One of the things I have strived to do is make something consistent and repeatable. This means taking known performing loads and adjusting media until you see a result that can be equated to a critter. In the case of water buffalo they are very tough. As they age they get tougher. The one I killed with the .450 had skin so thick you coulsn't stab through it with a bayonet. If you are trying to duplicate that kill then you need to simulate the skin and so forth. Nothing say whoa! to a bullet like a 7" steer knuckle. More later. reflex264

I will say this. I know of a certain professional hunter that uses muzzleloader's. Ten years ago, Knight rifles were the best and now it is TC. Is he lying now or then, because they both can't be true

That is why I say everyone should do there own testing. I know that companies and salesmen will undoubtedly hype their products, I just hope that a novice handgun hunter can see through some of the "hype" and find out some real life results for themselves.

Careful Whit, pointing members to AR. If we drag any AR folks back over here, were soon gonna have members banned for posting that the the 45-70 Contender is every bit the Cape Buff round as the 458 Win Mag Encore........;^)

Craig

Yeah, and if the .45/70 is incapable, a .500 Linebaugh is like a BB gun!

I can tell you from a professional sales perspective it is never a good idea to run down the competition to sell your own product. It either stands on its own merit or it does not...

AMEN!!!!!!

using the same style bullets the rifles will always out penetrate the pistols unless using an antiquated hardcast which do not benefit from velocity. this however, is very very different from saying velocity does not matter. it does and it makes a difference if one uses a bullet worthy of such velocity. i don't, nor have i ever thought paper testing was worth the paper it was shot into or the paper it was printed on. i've seen bullets that are supposed to out penetrate an expandable shot throught the same animal, the same area, same bone structure not outpenetrate it. though the paper testing shows different. i'll taket he animal test everytime.

That's not in dispute here. Lots of guys are still using round nosed solids, and they leave a lot to be desired.

I agree completely. The only thing a test media of any kind will do is provide a comparison of the various loads included in that test. You cannot take information from paper or water or pine trees or whatever and apply that to tissue and bone. My favorite test media is water, by the gallon in jugs. It is always the same. It provides a comparison of various bullets and their penetration or expansion (if applicable) or both, relative to one another, but nothing more.

The round nose 416 solids were out penetrated by the handgun rounds, the flat point 416 solids were not out penetrated by the handguns rounds.

I agree that theres too many still usig round nose solids. Horrible bullets. Just a wastin powerf

When I bought my 10" FA`s 475 a few years ago I took my 416 Rigby loaded Federals Trophy Bonded solid and my new 475 Linebaugh loaded with Buffalo Bores 440gr EWN-GC ammo listed at 1325fps to a friends place in Pennsylvania. I assume my single action velocity was close to the spec. speed because of the 10" barrel on my Freedom. We tied up bundles of dry newspaper until they reached 60 inches or five feet. Shot one round of the 416 TBBC solid into the top half of the bundle with velocity in the 2350fps range and then shot the 440gr EWN-GC bullet from the LB into the bottom half of the paper. The 416 out penetrated the 475. What did I do wrong???????

Thats using the same stack of paper. Youre not supposed to do that. Youre also supposed to have at least a 25% variance from high to low performance dontcha know!! See itnonly works if ya get 60" of penetration one time and then when ya use a different stack of paper ya get 40". Dontcha know that james.

Where is that sarcasm smiley?

I think that this is a great forum topic because it makes us talk about "real life" bullet testing, meaning actually testing bullets on flesh, not paper & phone books. I really hope novice handgun hunters don't actually take paper test results as the "gospel" & believe they will get the same results on game. My advice is talk to the guys & girls who actually shoot real life breathing, bleeding animals with these bullets, not just recycled trees. For example, if someone was going to Africa to hunt a Cape Buffalo, talk to the men on this site that have done it, I will promise you they will tell you truthfully what works and what doesn't. Talk to the men and women that spend their own hard earned money on these hunts. I know many of these hunters and have talked to them personally and they will tell you not to put faith in testing bullets in paper.

H

A proper flat point solid will out penetrate the handgun rounds. Many rounds nose solids will not, since they yaw and or tumble.

Several months ago I started putting a fall/winter hunt together for a Nilgai bull. I was planning on using my Competitor single shot in 376 Steyr with Hornady DGX 300 gr. bullets. All of the press & paper testing reviews & results were "off the chain" great/positive. Luckily, I didn't just go with those results. Like many have said before, "if you are getting paid to say how great the bullet is & how well it works" why would you admit to the hunting community it's short comings. I talked to one of our fellow handgunhunt.com members from Texas. I knew that if anyone knew he would. He and his family are a wealth of real life hunting "bullet performance" knowledge. He informed me without bias or prejudice that this bullet does not live up to the hype. This gentleman's son had used this same Hornady .375 DGX bullet on an Oryx. The bullet fell apart & miserably failed to live up to the hype. I am very glad for his "real life" review of this bullet. I will be using a 400 gr 475 bullet in my Competitor 475/350 Rem Mag Competitor single shot instead. I discussed this bullet with the one man who has actually tested this bullet - reflex264 & I feel very confident in this bullet & load choice.

David, did you go look at the link I posted? It sounds like you didn't. Again, media testing correlated quite nicely with flesh testing and Michael has killed more buff than anyone I know excluding one person (who is well into the triple digits). I am not saying that wet pack testing is the end-all be-all, just that when you have a bunch of different calibers and bullets to test, it is not only not feasible but not economical to use a bovine every time. Besides results vary animal to animal as well. You would have to have very deep pockets to come up with a meaningful way of testing bullets and loads only on flesh.

ONCE AGAIN, no one is disputing that a properly loaded rifle can out penetrate a handgun. THIS IS A HANDGUN HUNTING FORUM LAST I CHECKED so why are we fixating on rifles??????? And the terminal ballistics of a long barreled single-shot chambered in a bottleneck rifle cartridge has little relevance to the terminal ballistics of a firearm that can only achieve 1,500 fps on the high side.

Just because of the industry I work in I am in contact with many hunters -- many African hunters -- most are not even remotely fixated on the bullets they use in fact they are disengaged completely. They don't care and don't think it is that important (I'm talking rifle hunters here). You would be amazed at how little they think about the stuff we debate on a regular basis and frankly how little they know.

Dry newspaper. Lead bullet versus a tough bonded bullet. Come on James, the outcome of that one should have been obvious. Shoot 2x4s and you'll see the same trend.

I don' know if anyone is really fixated on rifles or if it is similar rounds that can be put into single shot handguns. My only point is that increased velocity does matter, at least in what I am shooting. I have heard & it has been discussed here & in written print that several of the Linebaugh rounds can & do out penetrate bottleneck single snot pistol/rifle rounds, and I just want the public to know that they only do this if the parameters are set up to sway the results. Similar diameter, same bullet configuration, and same weigh comparisons will show that they are not as close as some of the seminar results show. There are a lot of guys that hunt with 45/70 & 450 Marlin HANDGUNS on this site & their is not a single 45 Colt load that can be produced that will out penetrate or out perform them if they use similar styled bullets. I know that some "newbies" think that the 45 Colt can because they "read" it somewhere. I know this because they have told me when I have talked to them. I think someone once said "that the truth will set you free" & that is all I am saying - these results should be shown in a light that doesn't try to mislead anyone.

No they are not. The Linebaugh Seminars are "run what you brung" events. Most guys don't load their rifles with flat-nosed solids (there's the feeding issues as well from using these bullets). When they show up with round nosed solids, they often get trounced by "lesser" handgun rounds. Go look at the link I posted. It is chalk full of great real world information. Again, tested in media and then he goes and whacks seven or eight buff at a time. His findings in the lab absolutely correlate with his results in the field. READ THE LINK!

Man, don't misconstrue what I write to mean more than it does, I have been mislead by a lot of bogus information back in the early 90's back when I got seriously into only hunting with a handgun. I learned very early that if money is behind results, they will not always be accurate. Remember guys, I started out with revolvers in 44 Mag & 50 AE. I still love them & all the rounds that go in them. They will work on anything that walks on God's green earth. I like what I like because I have hunted with both & have seen with my own two eyes with how they perform on game. I will be happy to shoot any revolver you bring & spend all day doing it, but I am not stupid enough

I will gladly shoot anything you put in my hands! The .50 Alaskan is now sporting an Ultradot 6, BIG Talley rings in an attempt to put some weight on the top. I suspect it's a better configuration but we will have to find out!

The recoil energy & speed your 50 Alaskan revolver produces is all you buddy!

But I want to share the fun!

So that's what you call it?

What would be even more fun is to rest your elbows on a nice hard table top[concrete or wood don't matter] and then touch one of those monsters off and you will know how the poor wet pack or bovine feels. Penetration will be the fartherest thing from your mind for awhile. I would like a report on how deep your elbows penetrated though. Toyota trucks at 65 mph don't penetrate worth a damn [too much meplat I guess] but you can't argue with the results. Ain't this fun!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Hahaha, you have a good point Junebug!

The 45 doesnt give up much to the 454 if and only if ya use hardcast bullets and once again only if youre shooting paper. Shoot a 340 gr beartooth at 1700+ fps into a buffalo then shoot a 45 colt with the same bullet into a buffalo at 1300 fps and tell me theres no difference. Ive done it several times and its quite obvious despite the fact its not to the ruler in the paper. Whit. Youre right that the ph in africa dont know mucha bout bullets which is why i sent a few hundred a frames for his 458 lot to my ph as part of the tip.

Theres hopefully gonna be some african countries that are considering handgun hunting. The results by the first few people that hunt there will determine whether theres new places for us to handgunhunt and they better use the right stuff bc there better not be failures or it wont ever happen.

That was the point I was making. I was also trying to explain to you that in my 5-shot .45s, I can push 'em just as hard as a .454 -- hence the comment about the case length. I don't though, as I don't really think it's necessary, but that's just me. I think your pushing you luck with a hardcast bullet at 1,700 fps -- I wouldn't trust them completely at these speeds. Even 1,700 fps isn't all that fast in the grand scheme of things and I just don't see a huge gain. Now if you can get that bullet up to 2,400 fps I think you'll definitely be on to something! I just don't feel that the added velocity really gets their attention anyhow. Your placement needs to be spot-on, and a dead animal ensues. I still think placement causes more "reaction" than any other factor (assuming your bullet get's to the vitals). I have only one time seen a large animal (a bison) react to a shot (by react I mean he was visibly taken aback by the shot), and that bullet was loafing along at about 1,150 fps. However, every animal is a law unto itself, I don't expect the same reaction ever again.

And it wasn't PHs I was referring to, but rather people who drop coin regularly in Africa. For many, a solid is a solid.

On your second point, no doubt. I gave Larry Weishuhn a whole bunch of material last month in a meeting as they are preparing to pitch the Namibian government (the project that Gary is working on). The right stuff is a bullet that will reliably penetrate through to the vitals without deviating, and a shooter who can deliver. God knows rifle shooters loose game in Africa pretty frequently.

Yes they do but when they do lose animals left and right. Funny thing is they never think they needed a better bullet but that they need a bigger rifle. Ive always heard hunters talk about losing game with a vital shot on a cape buff with a 500 jeffrey or the like and my response isnt they need a 600 OK instead they just need to quit shooting round nose solids and that stuff will quit happening. I think we got it across pretty good the last time in africa to some of the ph's at the 2nd property it is about the bullet and not the caliber or whether its a rifle or pistol. This is why you can fail miserably with a 470 nitro and succeed with a 44 mag. Thankfully our ph is experienced with pistol hunters, in no small way due to him hunting with gary a few times, and he would tell the other phs that the pistols killed game real well

In a 5 shot 45 Colt it can be loaded to the same pressure and speed as the 454. Loaded to the same overall length the powder capacity will be the equal as well.

Jack Huntington shot an Asian buffalo with the 50 Alaskan out of a rifle shooting the 525 grain WFN at 1850 fps and it didn't have any quicker effect than what the 500 Linebaugh shooting the same bullet at about 1100 fps

Forgot to put this on my post

Yup, do it all the time. Can't remember the last time I hunted for my pleasure. Always testing......

Yup, do it all the time. Can't remember the last time I hunted for my pleasure. Always testing...... [/quote]

WHIT, Make sure you post the results and pictures of all your upcoming hunts. Will really enjoy seeing and reading about your tests....Let me add that be allowing some of the new handgun hunters to see and read your hunt results it will give them some insight into the ballistics of hunting handguns. You will be doing them a real service....

For editorial purposes, that's why I don't post 'em up much anymore.

That's to bad because the members will not be able to take advantage of your testing unless you tell us when these articles will be published. I cannot imagine what your day must be like and only hope I`am not asking to much.

Jwp. I dont much care one example of what jack huntington did once. I used my example for a reason. Its the velocity that i start to see that exact bullet expands with that type of lead to expand to about .8 inches. Therein lies the difference. That said if the wound channel wasnt bigger on the faster bullet the he needs a better bullet to maintain its integrity

I agree the bullet will expand a bit at higher velocity. I have shot a lot of large game such as moose,buffalo, etc as has Jack. I have not nesseceralily noticed more effectiveness especially at 1700 fps. Which is why I cited the example. I have noticed increased effectiveness on smaller game such as deer. Your experience may be different and there is indeed overlap.

Whats interesting to me is where it happens. So far ive been able to notice a significant "crumpling" of animals up to elk size when ive amped up the velocity and used an expandable vs a solid and have had adequate penetration up to 2k lbs so far. Fun to test things.

It's fun to see what really works & what falls short to live up to the hype. Animals over 1,000 pounds really prove what does & what does not perform as advertised.

This has been very educational for me guys! Thanks for keeping it civil so it didn't get locked.

This is good stuff!

This was the 18" tall tougher than shoe leather heart from my 2000lbs water buffalo. A 420gr Crater Lite at 1768fps did this.

thatll do it for sure there reflex!

Crater bullets & increased velocity....you know your stuff Reflex, but then again you have shot large dangerous game

Exit in the rib cage of a 6X7 bull elk a 440 grain wide me plat hard cast at 950 fps fired from the 500 JRH

Speaking of dangerous game





Another on

Fellers I appreciate everyone keeping this civil. The goal is to develope a repeatable index to measure performance. I am going to do another sort of questionnaire post for all who awant to participate that will include loads and cartridges used on actual game. reflex264

JWP, just out of curiosity, what did those bears weigh? Or the moose? I would think your best example would be the Bison you shot. When I was referencing Reflex, I was speaking of his Water Buff that weighed close to a ton. In this example I think size really makes a difference. I would really like to see a picture of your Water Buffalo if you have one readily available.

I have only shot 3 animals over 1,000 pounds with a pistol to test different bullets.

The first Yak bull was shot with my 416 Barnes Competitor pistol using a 350 gr Speer mag tip bullet. The Water Buffalo cow was taken with my Encore in 50 AE using 370 WFN. The last Yak bull was taken using my Competitor in 50 AE with a 385 gr Bonded Core HP bullet.

You mentioned dangerous game and the bears definitely fit that description especially when coming in as you work a moose kill. The 390 grain LFN flatted the one that I shot. It is in "Big Bore Revolver written by Max Prasac.
The bears were Arctic grizzly not the biggest, but the rather ill tempered. At least according to the AF&G . The Alaskan Yukon moose is the largest in world and larger than most Asian buffalo in my experience.

This big boy went over a ton. 1 shot with the 525 WFN at 1100 fps and he was finished blood pumping out the entrance and exit holes.





Average size Asian buffalo
A 425 grain wide flat point hard cast at 1385 fps broke the onside support bone through the shoulder and exited the off side shoulder immediately stopping his forward motion.

jwp, What year did you shoot your bears??

In the 80's. Does the time frame make a difference? The 390 grain LFN worked perfectly 1350 fps and I would choose the same today with the exception that I would move up to the 420 grainer.

This may give a perspective of how large these Alaskan Yukon moose are.

That is a really nice Buff (Bison)

jwp, I figured it was the 80s by the camo your wearing. You shot the moose in the above picture?? The reason I ask is that is that its bigger then the one I took... Nice moose. Shot mine in the 00`s....

Ok, I think this is a good point for everyone to PLEASE take a deep breath, and relax. I don't think anyone is pointing fingers or calling out anyone at this point, so far. But I think it is getting close. I don't want it to get that way as I am learning a LOT from this thread, and would hate to have this thread locked.

GREAT discussion fellas!!!

I think the biggest way to help each other is as follows....when we make a kill with our handguns, tell what round, bullet, bullet weight, & powder charge we use. Take pics of entrance & exit wounds & discuss animal reaction & distance animal ran after shot. We need to discuss tissue damage & quality of blood trail. The biggest thing we need to do is to fill the bragging board up with handgun kills! That means get out & hunt with your handguns!!

Yeasir. I agree. Its also a fun way to research

I'M IN!!!!!

Sounds like a plan. I wish our deer season wasn't 5 1/2 months away.

You will see TN Lone Wolf, this & every hunting season separates the handgun hunters from the handgun "talkers". I hope everyone involved in this forum topic & other topics really get out & handgun hunt. In my opinion, taking a doe, coyote, or even a field mouse with your handgun qualifies you as a hunter. Unfortunately, it seems like the same group goes hunting while everybody else sits on the couch. If this inspires you to go handgun hunting.....well.....GREAT! We learn best from each others handgun hunting experiences.

Moose heart that I shot in the 90`s shot with Freedom Arms 454 and FA`s 300gr JFP ammo at 60yds. Looks like reflex water buffs heart is much bigger or is it my old eyes....

That water buff heart was 18" tall and weighed over 20lbs. It was like leather. Very strange to me. I shot twice even though it wasn't needed. Hard to see from that shot but the bullet destroyed the bottom of the aorta and blood was shooting at least 4' from the buff. The guide said he had never seen anything like it. Here you can see the track of the blood on the ground.

Just remember guys lest keep the hunting fun and the data second. I have become so infatuated with numbers before that it started draining the fun out of my hunting. We are all here joined by a common bond. We enjoy hunting with guns that don't have butt stocks. Some like single actions. So do I. Some like double actions. Me too. Some like single shots. I in. Some like autos. I can go there as well. I have been fortunate to kill critters with all of them. If we are careful and observe results that we can share we can still have fun and learn something in the process. reflex264

I am with you on this Reflex. I learn something new every time I make a handgun kill. It doesn't matter if it is a WT doe or a Nilgai. They are all learning experiences. In my "neck of the woods" WT deer are my "willing" test subjects. If they walk in front of me while I'm in the deer stand, I'm "willing" to shoot them. I shoot them, young or old. They all taste good & there is NO shortage of deer in the south.

Yep I have absolutely lost count of handgun killed deer. I still get excited when a fat doe steps into range. reflex264

Thanks

I had to show this to my wife to prove to her that I am not the ONLY one in the world that slows down while driving to look at every single deer. To her, they are "just like seeing another dog". But I never get tired of them. Deer, elk, turkeys, antelope, ANY wildlife causes me to slow down and take a look.

She just doesn't get it???!!!

I would like to thank everyone for keeping this thread civil even though there is clearly some disagreement, which is fine. We don't have to agree all the time. I don't know of another forum where you could have 91 replies and a good bit of disagreement and no one has really gone off the rails. It's a testament to the caliber of folks here.

I have really enjoyed this thread. It has a lot of good information in it(as well as many others). Although I don't have much (any) experience with the big critters, I've learn quiet a bit on here. Now if you want to talk small game.........I've killed a squirrel or two.

this is partly my fault. i was hearing the siren call of a 480 srh at a local pusher's store. i also happen to have a friend who has a 480 srh and a few 475 linebaughs who graciously offered the loan of these guns to do some comparisons. i have parts and a donor gun for a 500 linebaugh and was musing on the fact that the 480 srh would be a turnkey gun. i may take a flogging for this, and one test is not a final conclusive solution, but i did not see enough gain over my 45s to justify going to the 480 and am going to the 500 linebaugh. phonebooks do not indicate how an animal will react to being shot by x bullet at y velocity, but do give an idea about wound channel and tissue destruction. i am planning on a progression of several deer to pigs to black bear to water buffalo over the next few years. one reccuring theme i have seen on this thread is that even though we all have differing opinions, there are still a pile of dead critters by handgun and that is the end goal anyway. sorry for a long post, matt.

Yep this group has class. Friendly disagreement is a great learning tool. reflex264

As LABRAT mentioned the .480 I too have heard its call. I will say one thing about the gun. It is super accurate. I shot a one handed group at about 23 yards ( we had a fire going so we had to scoot down hill) that was about 1.5". Then set a 12ga hull up and one handed it at 25 yards. The gun was just that easy to shoot good. One big surprise was the 360gr oregon trail bullet in ruger level .45 Colt loads. From my 4 5/8" gun they clocked 1248fps and if I remember right 1367fps from Matt's 7 1/2" hunter. Both of these out penetrated the .480 and .475. The permanent channel was even a bit larger. Herein is the point where we need input on kills. I will take this into consideration on the questionnaire. reflex264

Bullet and speeds of the 480 & 475. I have never seen any 45 Colt or 454 load out penetrate a 475 420 grain LFN. I mean a true LBT LFN in the 1350 fps + or - range.

I have shot some good size boar with my 475 using JHP bullets and then shot some more boar and a red stag using my 500 and JHP bullets. The difference in the wound channel was plain to see so I understand when you said you did not see enough gain over your 45 to go to the 480 and just go straight to the 500.... top boar is shot with 475...bottom pig is shot with 500jhp...and please don`t anyone tell me the 475 boar had thicker hair. The proof was in the wound channel after we opened them up..

I agree, it happened to me. Unfortunately you can't find two identical test mediums if you try to use critters. And of my testing a different result was found just about every time. Shot two brahman bulls for a friend,(weights were 1906lbs and 2012lbs, not dangerous game or even a hunt,just test medium) same gun, same load, and from measuring with a tape less than a inch difference on impact points, results were way different. I finally decided dead is dead. I try to use the combination that causes this result the quickest. From my testing, shot placement was way more critical than the projectile or speed of said projectile on the eastern white-tails I have used as medium. For those animals shot over the 800lb (mostly domestic and behind a fence) then other factors such as bullet structure and velocity started to come into play more. This just my 2 cent testing and opinion.

Increased velocity and increased wound channel size does not always equate to increased stopping effect.

Whitworth shot a hog with the 416 Remington for a review using the 300 grain TSX at 2900 fps. The bullet destroyed both lungs and the damage was described to me as massive, yet the hog ran and was not located until the next day.

Cottonstalk expressed some valid points above.

That is one of the best benefits to hunting on a ranch or preserve. You get to test bullets on large heavy game without going to Africa or Argentina. That is something that I will probably never be able to afford. I try to use my experiences testing bullets on such game to give those who are able to go on foreign safaris a little insight into what these bullets do on flesh & blood. I know everyone knows this, but an animals' physical composition is the same whether it is in front of or behind a game fence. If I was planning the hunt of a lifetime, such as a Cape Buffalo hunt in Africa, I would certainly go to a game ranch and shoot a Water Buffalo or Bison first. That would give you as close to the "Cape Buff" example as there is, the only difference is that both Bison & Water Buffalo are larger than Cape Buffalo, weight wise. Testing bullets like this is not for everyone. To each his or her own. Even a Domestic Bovie like an Angus Bull can & is dangerous. They are truly not as unpredictable as Cape Buffalo, but ask any farmer or country boy , they will stomp a mud hole in you if you are not careful. Our fellow member Junebug can attest to that. That is why I speak of hunting a Water Buffalo as large dangerous game. When you put a bullet into one, they become "wild" in a hurry.

if increased velocity AND increased wound channel size doesn't equate to an increased stopping effect i guess i shoulda shot my cape buffalo with a 9mm. they don't always put the animal down quicker depending on adrenalin and placement, but over a couple kills it will be seen as a difference. question is, how does a nice 80 caliber hole going through with high velocity equate to a .5" hole at a slower velocity. i think it i'll take the 80 caliber hole when shooting cape buff and i've found the combo to get the requisite penetration. on those buffalo two exit holes matter not.

i've done lots of penetration tests where a monometal large meplat solid from a 454 will outpenetrate hardcasts out of the 50 and 475 calibers, in fact just did one last night.

100%.... Mark, Well said.... My observations of the terminal effect of my 475LB and my 500WE were after a number of different size animals were shot be me and then opened up on the meat rack......

That was one tough pig.....

Just curious trad, if a monometal large meplat solid was used in the 475 and 50 would the results have been the same? just curious

franchise I get the testing part of shooting animal mediums, but in my experience the only critter I have shot wild and behind a fence is a hog. My experience was they were different. The wild hog was leaner and more aggressive and his hide was thicker and hair longer, the behind a pen hog was fat,and while it may have offered more resistance to the bullet due to that fact, it wasn't anywhere near as rangy or aggressive as it's wild counterpart. Now I am not the hog slayer Whit and JFJ is but this is just my 2 cent experience I have had.

Shot placement reguardless of projectile is above all else. Put the right bullet at the right velocity in the wrong spot and you will either have a long tracking job, or a lost animal. Put the wrong bullet at the wrong velocity in the right spot and you may have to trail but more times than not vittles will be on the dinner table.

I am told all the time that old colt velocities aren't as good, but deer fall every year around here to sub 850fps projectiles and they are no less dead than the ones killed at 1500+fps velocities. There maybe more damage done internally but they are both still dead,and on the dinner plate.

Just to clear up the 416 Remington boar kill.......I thought Whit shot that boar with a Hawk bullet & that is why the boar got away...now I am curious. I probably have this and another hunt confused.

My statement was doesn't always and that is my experience that I can cite many examples and at least one picture.
There are certainly extremes to this that you nor I would do. But the fact remains there are no absolutes. I am a firm believer that in revolvers that a larger diameter is an advantage, but not automatic.

Of course that was not equal bullets to equal bullets. Mono metal bullet out penetrate hard cast in my experience.

The instance that I am referring to was a 300 grain TSX at 2900 fps. The hog was recovered the next day. Whit wrote an article about this experience.

10-4.

Indeed.

I shot this deer with a 338 Lapua with a load generating about 5200 FE and he ran.


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I have came to the conclusion over several decades that once a wound is large enough, larger isn't always more decisive or needed. A bullet that has adequate penetration and a large enough wound channel works as good as any in my experience. A bullet that doesn't give enough penetration or a large enough wound channel will not give satisfactory results. To define and adequate wound channel is the debate.

That deer may have ran, but you were in no real danger of losing him. Gotta love pics with intestines.

This is from a 600lbs cow elk. 38 yards quartering away shot. 350gr .458 Hornady flat point started at 2100fps. Exited through that shoulder after leaving a 2" cavern all the way through the chest cavity. Dead right there.

This is the damage a 500WE made on a recent double lung shot red stag from a 325gr Swift over 30.0grs of Lilgun shot from my Freedom Arms 6" revolver. Does anyone have photos of critters shot with handguns???

Damage left by 325gr Swift on pig. Someone said in this topic that revolvers and single shot handguns shooting rifle cartridges are like apples and oranges or something to that effect. So with that said, the damage a straight wall revolver round will do is no where near the damage a high speed rifle round will do. I would really like to see more photos of what handguns do to game because comparing rifle killed game to handgun killed game is also like apples and oranges. I hope all you handgun hunters will understand where I`am coming from.....

Not sure what this will prove but here ya go, all in the wild, no fences. [img][/img]

Cotton, So your saying that these critters I shot in South Africa are not wild because every piece of private land in SA is fenced regardless if its 5000 acres or 500,000 acres??? But then again maybe your right because the 2nd time I was in Africa I was confronted by a female lion without a weapon and I was able to slowly make it to my tent and I always wondered why she did not hit me. I`am sure it was because she said to herself " I don`t want to eat this guy because we are behind a fence and it will not be sporting".....

The leg bone pulled off while skinning a wide flat point hard cast from a 454 did the deed.


[URL=http://s33.photobucket.com/user/jwp475/media/WFN45CalWound.jpg.html][/URL

Cotton, What bullet did you use on the excellent heart shot from your above pictures??

jwp, Perfect... How far was the shot??

JFJ didn't see anywhere where I said they weren't, just referred to the animals I took. But since you have more experience in preserve in NA and the wilds of NA do you really think chasing down a critter non native to the region in a limited fenced area is the same as going after the wild in their home turf? Inquiring minds want to know? A 5000 acre or a 500,000 acre enclosure is a lot different to what is provided at most preserves here in NA. Just my opinion. Sitting in a fenced in area you know something is going to walk out in my opinion is good for eating,bullet testing,and folks with limited time constraints,but again in my experience it hasn't been much for hunting.Again just my 2 cents worth.

The high fenced vs free range debate is for a totally different forum discussion. When it comes to testing bullets it is absolutely irrelevant if the animal is in front of or behind a fence. Their muscle tissue can't tell the difference. Really??

Cotton, To be perfectly honest with you, the first time I shot a fenced pig was because I could not wait for the normal hunting season to open because my love of the kill outweighs any debate over fenced verses non fenced hunting. Testing and time all come in second. But let me add that I draw the line at 5 acres when it comes to shooting critters behind a fence.... Have to have some ethics.

300gr wfn 45 colt, at approximately 1150fps JFJ. Here is another thought. I have taken game with a 357mag in pistol and rifle. There is a velocity increase and bullet structure becomes paramount as velocity increases. All critters died shot with both but I am not sure one was any deader than another. But comparing a bullet that's designed for pistol speeds against one designed for rifle speeds doesn't seem fair,IMO. If you over drive a bullet designed for 1700fps to say 2200fps is the bullet going to perform even close to what it was designed to do?

Everyone has their favorite, and that's what they like. Whether money is involved or not everyone is a little skewed or biased. I like A frames and nosler partitions, not a huge fan of XTPs but others swear by XTPs, to each their own. What a boring place the world would be if everyone liked the same. The calibers would be limited,platforms on which they would come from the factory limited. Glad it's not like that myself.

That's one of the best photos I`ve seen showing the damage a hard cast bullet can do. I`am sure there are many more but for now this one is tops. No better place to post pictures of what hunting handguns can do then a handgun hunting website...

Cool interesting to know, I know and have myself when time constrains me.

Franchise not trying to be confrontational but the muscle mass and of a penned verses non penned animal has been different in my experience due to diet. Take a hog put on the ground like the old days feed swollen corn and slops verses it's wild counterpart there structure is the same but their muscles and toughness most times will be different, as well as their fight/flight instincts. Again we don't have to agree but it doesn't make anyone's opinion more valuable than anothers.

penned vs non penned is different imho to fence and no fence. many predators do not respect fences and its an animal being sedentary that makes them soft so to speak. a pig in a pen is very very different from a pig living wild but an elk behind a fence in a large game ranch is not different from what i've shot in the mountains.

cotton--the monometals perform well in all handguns in my experience. that said, it's the higher velocity rounds that give the best increase b/c they tax the hardcast lead bullet the most so i've seen a better increase in a maxed out 460 than a 500L for examples of the extreme.

jwp -- just asking, but if we all readily admit the monometal solids perform better, are more reliable and don't fail. why would you use the same load ya did in the 80's, if i, or anyone i know, was gonna hunt anything large and dangerous why not use the best. deer and smaller game is a different story obviously. we always talk about using a solid b/c of poor penetration of expandables but bullets are different now and far more advanced and reliable so i do fail to see why if i have barnes and a frame expandables that do the job handily and penetrate adequately on 2000 lb cape buffalo why i'd use a smaller diameter solid on things here in the states? i agree they all can work but why not use the best?

Sure, everyone is entitled to an opinion, & no ones' is more valuable than another. When we are discussing bullet testing & how velocity influences bullets, it becomes a tad " weird" to me that fenced vs non fenced comes into play. When it comes to large game & shooting them, I really don't think that the muscle mass & bone density of a Bison on a preserve or ranch to one that lives in Yellowstone National Park really will change bullet upset or penetration. I just don't see the relevance.

OK....

Trad,How much in fps increase do you start to notice the difference? Lets compare the 45 colt at normal and 5 shot or custom velocities to 454 and 460. I am curious where gains can be used efficiently. How much gains in mushrooming do you get if appropriate bullets are selected for each velocity parameter? I am curious and am interested in results.

We all have differing opinions but all are valuble and relivant. Single shot handguns in rifle calibers are relivant for comparison here. It does help answer the questions about velocity and bullet combinations. I truly wish I had some pictures of the worst destroyed deer I ever took with a handgun. It was a doe shot at a lasered 112 yards with a .44 Special using a 255 Cast Performance bullet that started from the muzzle at a lowly 1030fps. I have no good explaination for the destruction to the deer. The meat was gone from the ribs on entry and exit for about 6". There was blood coming out the mouthand the rear end of the deer. In between the skin and the carcass the entire deer looked bruised on both sides. Now is this normal? No way. Did it happen yes. This is the kind of damage I typicaly see from a rifle cartridge single shot handgun. reflex264

Boys I am soaking up your experiences. Keep them comming but keep it civil.

I get unexplained things happen all the time. Here is a back strap off a deer shot low in the chest cavity but had blood shot meat and trauma in the back strap. I never could find what caused it and the projectile while at subdued velocity wasn't recovered. There were no signs of fragments in the back strap just one of those things that make you go hmmmm?

The reason that I would use the same as I did in the 80s is simple it works very well and provides more than enough penetration, less expensive and I like to hunt with want I practice with. More penetration from the mono metal solids is good but simply not needed in my experience. The loads that I settled own have never left me wanting and I am very familiar and confident with them.

cottonstalk, i like, and this is just on my experience, over 1500 fps for the aframe and over 1700 from the barnes and this is muzzle velocity. i recently killed a whitetail doe with a hornady xtp 240 mag at 2050 fps and hit it quartering to me from the right front of shoulder and out the back ribs. crumpled at the shot no spine hit. so far i've not had any deer exotic or whitetail not drop in their tracks with expandables running mv over 1750 fps. i've shot over 10 oryx now and i've dropped them all within 60 yards, now i do shoot african animals till they quit moving with any bullet, but i've not had the same results with the hardcast. last oryx shot with a 475 through the lungs went over 6 miles. cape buffalo with an aframe and did massive damage and left me a wonderful blood trail from the nose, it was easy to follow, due in large part to the damage the bullet did. per the ph woulda died on the first shot but we don't let em suffer so we pushed and shot it again with a buster which is my f/u bullet, on testing on the actual animal, a 475 hardcast produced no more penetration when shot through the same shoulders next to the original hole. the 45 colt shot animals and 44 mag shot animals with expandables did not penetrate nor do the damage on 400lb and up animals that the faster bullets do if under 1400 fps where ya choose to load a 45 colt 5 shot is up to you but i'm keeping with book velocities. 475 expandables of premium bullets do great above 1400 fps. another great example is the 4 black bear over 300lbs we took in alaska. 454's and a 475, all premium epxandables the 475 i believe was about 1450fps on a 325 gr speer (gary's) and the others were 2 with 300 gr partitions at 1600fps and a barnes 250gr xbp at 1750. all dropped within 20 yards. my sons bear was a 250 gr barnes at 1750 fps at 50 yards through both shoulders, didn't take a step but rolled 20 yards down the mountain. never got up and took a step. no tracking involved. 5/5. on my 11 bison i've shot i've used hardcast 44 mag, 45 colt, 454, and 475 and expandables in the 454 and 44 mag. the ones through the heart killed quickly, but one with a 454 hardcast and a 45 colt hardcast dropped at the spot because of the bone trauma but took over 5 minutes to die as they were not shot throught he heart and the other animals herded around them precluding a f/u shot. none of the expandables went further than 40 yards and that includes the 44 mag shot with 225 hornday tipped hollow points through the lungs. a water buffalo shot with the barnes xbp died with one shot and traveled about 40 yards before it layed up and died. two cow elk shot with hardcast, one with a 45/70 and one with a 475 had bullet failure on the shoulders and required a 200 yard chase and follow ups which brought them down quickly. that said the other elk i've beenin on the shooting with 454 hornady 240 gr xtp mag bullets and a 275 gr barnes xbp bullets piled up within 20 yards. gary shot a huge cow elk bigger than many bulls with his 475 with speer 325 gr bullets and he waylaid that thing and it dropped within 40 yards if i remember correctly. my sons lion which is on video was shot with a 275 gr xbp bullet head on and it traversed the entire lion and went through 2 small trees, the f/u shot from the back b/w the shoulder blades was the final killer and as the video shows as the lion jumped up to charge but fell at the first step in a heap illustrates where a smaller wound channel and taking a couple minutes to die is not desireable. quite exciting btw. gary's lion with the nosler partition out of his 454 went about 5 feet and died. sure poor shots out of the vitals inspire a lengthy tracking episode. experience varies and this is just some of mine and what i base my opinions on.

As far as bullet testing goes there is no difference in my opinion. The difference that is being referenced is in and animals alertness and ability to flee and the ability to get a good shot, at least that is what I would consider as the difference

perhaps it's enough/perhaps not if it was a cape buff, i personally would use the best on the biggest and most dangerous and would encourage anyone to do so as well that's going as handgun hunting itself is being judged by the performance on the biguns.

Mark, thanks for bringing this forum back to the topic of bullet testing & man, you have done a lot of handgun hunting......meaning......you have done a lot of bullet testing. Thanks Mark for telling me about your/your son's experience with the .375 Hornady DGX bullets. It was really nice to hear real world experience & not just Hornady's press.

Damage caused by 400 gr XTP on a boar hog from my 475/350 Mag exit wound from WT deer from 350 gr Hawk bullet from my 416 Barnes heart from Fallow Buck from my 30/221 using 125 gr. BT exit wound on WT from my 376 Steyr using 300 gr Norma Oryx bullet here are just a few examples of my handgun bullet testing

I don't want to leave my buddy KRal out. This Red Fox exit wound using my 30/221 handgun using a 125 gr Speer TNT HP bullet

Exit wound from WT deer using a 50 AE with a 385 gr HP exit wound on Florida Feral Boar using 416 Barnes with Hawk 350 gr. Spitzer. 475 Linebaugh HC in the hole for size comparison.

Just curious if some of the thin jacketed and softer flat points fired in the 700-850fps range that achieve maximum mushrooming really loose anything to a thicker jacketed maximum mushrooming at higher velocities say 1600+ fps. Once a jacketed bullet has mushroomed completely,went through the vitals, can it really do anymore? Speer GDs,Hawk(thin jacketed),Nosler sporting,sierra sports,swift a frames,nosler partitions and some old winchester half jackets are what I have used and each have their sweet spots. All have killed for me but you can blow them up. Send some of the thin Hawks out at upper 1700+ velocities and watch the pancake become detremental to what you are after. I have never been able to push any of the a frames hard enough to see bullet pancaking or coming apart. Revolvers were not built to achieve rifle velocities. And most rifles and handguns with proper bullets do more than enough damage to put food on the table. Critters haven't gotten tougher but compare the armament taken afield today vs what was used 30yrs ago,20yrs ago,even 10yrs ago. I recently had a talk with a 92yr old friend about hunting and what most people take to the field in my area and he laughed and said'" With that kind of fire power what's everybody hunting,dinasours?"

How much is enough,don't matter, we hunt and shoot what we want with what we want. I as a hand gunner like revolvers,DA or SA and autos because it changes the way I hunt. It forces me to slow down and spend more time in the field. If I had a long range single shot I would want to wring it out for all it's worth and they shoot a lot farther and a lot flatter and my time afield would be shortned. I don't think comparing the two, rifles and rifle calibers to handgun cartridges is even playing field. However I never feel under gunned when I go to the field. To me comparing the bottle neck cartridges to straight walled is like comparing a 50bmg to a 5" on a battle ship.

Was never left wanting with the proper hard cast on Alaskan Yukon moose, Alaskan grizzly or.bison.

trademark, I am curious to know what and when was the last big animal ( over 500lbs ) that you shot, what bullet did you use, bullet performance and anything else you may add??? Its a nice to know that the members practice what they preach. I guess my last big critter was one of those Cape buff shooting a 500 WE loaded with 420gr Punch bullet ammo a few weeks ago......

The center bullet was recovered on the offside of a nyala after a 72 yard uphill shot from FA`s 475 Linebaugh. The animal ran 10 feet and died. The 400gr XTP from a factory load lost 48grs with a recovered weight of 352grs. The XTP has to be the most consistent non-premium bullet on the market. The recovered bullet may not be picture perfect but they work.... All you new members take notice. If you match the bullet to the game your after and put the bullet in the kill area you will recover your animal....

Blood trail from pig shot with 325gr Swift from 500WE....

The 475 cast hollow point pictured above was a joint project by Dick Thompson and Glenn Swaggert. Glen sent me a few and asked me to load them with, I believe, 14.0grs of HS-6 so they would know the velocity range when fired from a 5 1/2" barrel. I loaded
them as Glen asked and shot a decent pig using my John Gallagher five shot Bisly. The center picture is the offside pocket that held the expanded cast HP until it dropped to the ground upon skinning. Pretty good performance...would`ent you agree?

PS- the lubed cast HP weighed 388.0grs. The recovered bullet lost less then 5.0grs weighing 383.3grs......

These pictures show what damage a 210gr XTP shot from a S&W 657 will do to a good size boar. I believe the handload used H-110 and was just under max. The 210gr XTP really ripped up the lungs.
Match the bullet to the game and put it in the right place.....

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My brown bear died in the water at sundown after being hit with a Cor-Bon 360gr Penetrator from my FA`s 454 Casull. It was a broadside hit at exactly 50yds. The second picture shows the exit on the skinned bear. At impact the bear proceeded to tear up the ground and claw at the wound until he fell dead into the water. I will always remember the sound of the huge jacketed flat point bullet when it hit the bear. WAMP.... A premium bullet did a premium job on a high price adventure...You have to believe in the bullet you are hunting with and that happens with experience. And the only way to get experience is to shoot animals with your handgun, no matter if they roam the plains of the lower 48, are trying to escape from a fenced operation or come through your bedroom window. I think you get the message.....PS- the bottom picture shows the brown bear after he dried off.

The hunt pictures I`ve posted above are a small example of what hunting handguns can do no matter what size the animal is. You have to practice and then find the time to hunt. No different then rifle or bow hunting. Know your weapon and its limitations and kill something.....

Nice bear and i lobe the damage to that hogs lungs from the .41. To answer your question the last game animal ober 500lbs was the cape buff about 9 months ago. A frames 325 used for first shot and a barnes buster f/u coup de gras.

Boys I am enjoying all of your input. keep it comming. reflex264

Got a few of these,just waiting for victims.Going to use three different velocity ranges.950ish,1100fps which is about where those you used JFJ should have been and 1250fps.Looks like they work well,and I understand that a elk and a buffalo have met their demise with this same bullet at that medium velocity range.

JFJ Looking at this whole post again and the photos of the hog with that 475 cast hollowpoint, do you think that driving it faster would have been any more efficient at killing that hog?

Faster would actually be more trouble in my opinion. With the alloy mixture that was used on this one from Sixshot 70/30 mix, you don't want to go much faster. At 1100, its almost perfect, at 1170 where my load was with the bison, it starts to lead after about 20 rounds. Not bad and good enough for hunting but 1100 seems to be a sweet spot. If you want to run it faster, Dick would cast it from an 80/20 mix most likely to slow the opening a touch and help it hold together and try to lessen chance of leading the bore. These big HPs work very well when the velocity is matched with the alloy composition. I've found the 1100 fps range with my 475 to be a most effective and efficient killing machine.

Thanks Glenn......

And the circle continues, but the main information stays exactly the same "Shoot a good bullet at designed velocity put it in the right spot and collect your trophy" and "velocity helps if the bullet is matched and up to the task". After reading through it several times, most are saying the exact same thing just different ways. This site has lot's of experience in just about any realm of handgunning one would like to go. Here are the highlights from where I sit,

reflex264 "Tests have little meaning if you never point them at a critter."

Whitworth "there is a bit of a dead zone over a certain velocity where gains are so minimal as to not be worth the added recoil and subsequent punishment. Once you pass that threshold, the gains are more prevalent"

Whitworth "I tested a .475 Linebaugh many years ago against a .470 Nitro Express double rifle belonging to a friend. The 420 grain bullet at a scorching 1,350 at the muzzle handily out penetrated the .470's 500 grain solid in wetpack. Why? Well, for one, the solid bullet's small meplat was causing the .470 bullets to veer off course, not penetrating straight. Had the .470 been equipped with a better bullet with a better nose profile, the tables may have been turned. It's all in the bullet"

Bearbait in NM "My feelings on wetpack are that it is really only useful for comparisons on that day, in that material, as wet and as dense as it is. I usually just try to compare bullets shot side by side, on that day"

reflex264 "Media unless you have a way to keep it consistent is pretty much guess work"

tradmark "it does and it makes a difference if one uses a bullet worthy of such velocity"

s4s4u] "The only thing a test media of any kind will do is provide a comparison of the various loads included in that test. You cannot take information from paper or water or pine trees or whatever and apply that to tissue and bone"

jwp475 "The round nose 416 solids were out penetrated by the handgun rounds, the flat point 416 solids were not out penetrated by the handguns rounds.

Whitworth "Your placement needs to be spot-on, and a dead animal ensues. However, every animal is a law unto itself, The right stuff is a bullet that will reliably penetrate through to the vitals without deviating, and a shooter who can deliver"

tradmark "Funny thing is they never think they needed a better bullet but that they need a bigger rifle"

reflex264 "Just remember guys lest keep the hunting fun and the data second. I have become so infatuated with numbers before that it started draining the fun out of my hunting. We are all here joined by a common bond. We enjoy hunting with guns that don't have butt stocks"

Franchise "I learn something new every time I make a handgun kill"

cottonstalk "Shot placement reguardless of projectile is above all else. Put the right bullet at the right velocity in the wrong spot and you will either have a long tracking job, or a lost animal. Put the wrong bullet at the wrong velocity in the right spot and you may have to trail but more times than not vittles will be on the dinner table"

jamesfromjersey "revolvers and single shot handguns shooting rifle cartridges are like apples and oranges,damage a straight wall revolver round will do is no where near the damage a high speed rifle round will do. comparing rifle killed game to handgun killed game is also like apples and oranges"

cottonstalk "There is a velocity increase and bullet structure becomes paramount as velocity increases.But comparing a bullet that's designed for pistol speeds against one designed for rifle speeds doesn't seem fair,IMO.Everyone has their favorite, and that's what they like. Whether money is involved or not everyone is a little skewed or biased"

jamesfromjersey "A premium bullet did a premium job on a high price adventure...You have to believe in the bullet you are hunting with and that happens with experience"

cottonstalk "do you think that driving it faster would have been any more efficient at killing that hog?"
GlenS "These big HPs work very well when the velocity is matched with the alloy composition"

Gary "I would like to thank everyone for keeping this thread civil even though there is clearly some disagreement, which is fine. We don't have to agree all the time. I don't know of another forum where you could have 91 replies and a good bit of disagreement and no one has really gone off the rails. It's a testament to the caliber of folks here"

Nice summation. Kinda like brothers bickering over which football game to watch and we all love football

Just a suggestion but, couldn't one weigh the water and container holding water before soaking news print(or whatever medium) and after container holding water along with remaining water to come up with a weight(then calculate the % of water in the news print?
Steve

What is overlooked to often is the fact that it isn't just the amount of water. it is the tensile strength of the test media. Pure news print has next to no tensile strength. Vinyl coat especialy 6 mil and up is very strong. During all of the rifle testing I kept playing with it to determine equal difficulty of penitration vs steer knuckles. 1" of dry vinyl coat equated to a 6" steer knuckle. Nothing short of a 50bmg----and a .416 with a Good solid bullet will penitrate 12" of dry vinyl coat. Take the 12" of vinyl coat and soak it in water. It will only take so much water. You can measure the resistence with a home made drag meter using a piece of #10 wire, a 1" shuttle with a 45 degree nose and a fishing scale. Wet news print with a good yand will peak at around 5lbs. Vinyl coat will hit 20lbs. More later. reflex264

Nice.