I didn't want to hijack another thread that is going on at the moment, but still want to discuss this a little bit. "Soft hardcast" bullets seems like an oxymoron to me. Therefore, I'd like to ask the experts to delve into this subject a little bit if they don't mind.
One the other thread, we were talking about brown bear hunting, and taking out both shoulders. Hardness of the bullet started to become a topic, and one I don't know a lot about. I've only recently come in to shooting hardcast, and have yet to take a critter with hardcast. Hopefully, this will be my year though.
Here is what I am wondering about...
As far as the bullet being too soft, I would think if you wanted it to mushroom, you would be better off using a JHP of some sort. Maybe an XTP, XTP MAG, or A Frame type bullet. A bullet designed to expand rather than a hardcast that mushrooms seems to be the better choice?? But I know that when ya get to a point that it is to hard, it becomes brittle, and that isn't good either. So I would imagine that velocity plays a big part in what happens with hard cast bullets.
What application would you use a "soft" hardcast bullet, and wouldn't an appropriate JHP do a better job??
Thanks, Masters!
Posted By: cottonstalk
Re: Soft Hardcast - 08/17/2015 7:32 PM
Sixshot would probably be your best source of information. Soft nosed cast bullets work just like a jhp but there is no chance of separation. You may shed a little lead but the core will continue to penetrate. Money, soft cast purchased or made usually cost less. I get 100 for what a premium jacketed cost, like an A frame. Adjustability, you can vary your softness to your fps or quarry. Run it a little faster and you get more mushrooming, run it a little slower and penetration increases. For me it's the ideal projectile with the best of both worlds.
Posted By: cottonstalk
Re: Soft Hardcast - 08/17/2015 7:46 PM
RT there's an older article by Ross Seyfried where he explains the idea behind soft nosed cast but I can't remember where.
Posted By: FAH
Re: Soft Hardcast - 08/17/2015 8:45 PM
Rap, I highly recommend Max's book , Big Bore Revolvers. In that book he discusses the virtues of cast bullets, and Gary contributes a good read on JHP's. Get the book if you don't already have it.
I'm definitely no expert, but from what I've gleaned a cast hunting bullet (for larger game) functions best when it has a large meplat (flat area on the nose of the bullet). This allows it to penetrate deeply in a straight line with a large wound channel. If the bullet is too soft and it will deform and lose effectiveness. Too hard and it will shatter on heavy bone. One answer is to heat treat the projectiles. Good article on heat treating bullet lead is
http://www.lasc.us/HeatTreat.htm Also see views of Veral Smith of Lead Bullet Technologies.
Personally, my casting of premium bullets hasn't been all that flash and I prefer to buy quality jacketed for when it matters.
Posted By: Whitworth
Re: Soft Hardcast - 08/18/2015 9:44 AM
I would definitely contact Sixshot and GlennS here as they both use them extensively and successfully. Sixshot casts them.
Rap, I highly recommend Max's book , Big Bore Revolvers. In that book he discusses the virtues of cast bullets, and Gary contributes a good read on JHP's. Get the book if you don't already have it.
Yeah, I have the book, and have read it many times. Great read! Maybe I'm just not conveying my question effectively. I know how the HC bullets are designed to work, and I know how jacketed are designed to work. But what causes me the confusion is the soft hardcast. Seems like it is taking the "effectiveness" out of the hardcast design / function.
Don't get me wrong, I LOVE hardcast. It's all I shoot, except in my 460 I shoot XTP MAGS. But a soft hardcast just seems inefficient to me I guess. Maybe I just don't understand its intended purpose.
I've been looking into this a bit on the web, but can't find anything that pertains to "why" you would chose a soft hardcast, or what practical application they have. There's gotta be something-- I'm just not finding it.
I PM'd Sixshot as recommended, so hopefully he can help me wrap my mind around this concept.
Thanks all!! I LOVE THIS STUFF!!
Posted By: jaydub in wi
Re: Soft Hardcast - 08/18/2015 2:45 PM
RT there's an older article by Ross Seyfried where he explains the idea behind soft nosed cast but I can't remember where.
I think the article was in handloader magazine. I have it somewhere. Next week I can hunt it down. He describes how you make the nose out of pure lead. Pure lead will expand at the velocity we shoot at.
The base of the bullet is made out of water dropped wheel weights, and it is much harder. If the bullet meets extreme resistance, the nose will expand widely, and the harder shank will continue to penetrate after the nose breaks off. Kinda like a nosler partition rifle bullet.
He said that the softnose cast will group the same as regular bullets made out of one alloy. I can send a copy next week if anyone would like one.
Posted By: FA834ME
Re: Soft Hardcast - 08/18/2015 4:39 PM
I am in the camp that when it "matters" I would go with the premium bullet. The Swift A frame comes to mind. At a buck a piece they seem like a bargain "when it matters", even to a Scotsman like myself. If you run the numbers on a hunt, the price of the bullet is the least expensive piece of equipment. It's performance is the one piece that has the final control of the outcome. The best bullet in the world is no guarantee since so many other factors come into play but it will stack the odds in the shooter's favor.
Posted By: SChunter
Re: Soft Hardcast - 08/19/2015 10:24 AM
RT,
The best way I can summarize it...jacketed performance in a cast bullet. As a lifelong jacketed shooter, I understand the confusion...expansion = jacketed, right? That is what I thought, until I used the soft cast HP's firsthand.
The main application for me is that I can run the soft cast HP's at subdued velocities (read: recoil) and still get tremendous expansion with the bullet.
For example, the .475 cal 400 gr XTP is a hard bullet - so much so that it takes pushing it hard, even out of the Linebaugh to get it to expand much at all on game. But sixshot's cavernous 385 gr HP run at a modest 1050-1100 fps? Nearly 2x expansion without the recoil of a maxed out 475L. I took 2 deer last season with that bullet, with impressive wound channels on both, complete penetration, and instant "incapacitation". Nearside/entrance wound channel was significant, demonstrating rapid expansion.
Now I know my sample size of 2 whitetail deer may not be a good predictor of performance on significantly larger animals or dangerous game, but I would point to Glenn's use on a bull bison, James' use on hogs, and Sixshot's own experiences on western game. I'm a believer, and the bullet is my go-to out of my 6" FA going forward.
Lest you think I'm a complete cast convert, my other 475 choice is the 275 Barnes x-bullet out of my 9" scoped Linebaugh, at the upper end of the velocity window...recoil is, ummm, sporty
Posted By: Whitworth
Re: Soft Hardcast - 08/19/2015 12:30 PM
I am in the camp that when it "matters" I would go with the premium bullet. The Swift A frame comes to mind. At a buck a piece they seem like a bargain "when it matters", even to a Scotsman like myself. If you run the numbers on a hunt, the price of the bullet is the least expensive piece of equipment. It's performance is the one piece that has the final control of the outcome. The best bullet in the world is no guarantee since so many other factors come into play but it will stack the odds in the shooter's favor.
How do we define what matters? All animals count in my opinion. If I have thousands of dollars worth of trophy fees on the line I get not skimping on bullets. However, at the subdued velocities these bullets work, I wouldn't worry about failure in the least, and frankly if penetration is on the table, I'm not looking at jacketed expanding bullets. But, that's just me. These soft-nosed hardcasts evidently work like gangbusters. I am planning on testing them very soon myself as sixshot was gracious enough to send me some of these some time ago.
Posted By: cottonstalk
Re: Soft Hardcast - 08/19/2015 12:47 PM
Like SChunter said sixshots got the most diverse use with these. I used them almost exclusively last year, and took several deer and a bear. While they offer expansion they are no penetration slouch, as none of the bullets were recovered. Ranges were a few ft-97 yards and critters from 100#s - 400#s.
Man this is good stuff guys! Thank you!! I have been using the Cast Performance bullets, and love the accuracy I am getting with them. SChunter, what you said kinda makes it click... a little bit. Being that lead is soft, what kind of weight retention do you guys expect with these soft nose hard cast bullets? I would figure the "soft" part would slough off during impact / expansion. Too rapid / too much expansion would mean the mushroom gets thin, which would cause it to weaken and break off, wouldn't it?? I guess maybe this is why these bullets are run a little slower?
While I'm sitting here typing this, I was reminded of a thread a while back where we discussed punch bullets. At the time, some on here said that punch bullets were the premium of the premium (not exact words). I tend to believe you should always shoot the best bullet you can afford as the animals we hunt deserve / demand that, at least in my book. Is it safe to say these soft hard cast bullets are a premium bullet then, or just a new idea that is being tested and working out pretty well so far? Only one person (Sixshot) has very much experience with them, so that leads me to believe they may be kinda new???
Posted By: sw282
Re: Soft Hardcast - 08/19/2015 1:26 PM
Years ago Lyman used to make a 2 piece mold where the jacket and nose were cast SEPERATELY.. You could cast the nose or 'core' from pure lead and the jacket or 'body' from #2 alloy. The same concept as being discussed here. The two were then glued together with a special epoxy sold by Lyman..l remember reading some reviews about these back in the early 80s when IHMSA and handgun hunting were popular... lt seemed the best of both worlds to me but l did not persue it..
Posted By: cottonstalk
Re: Soft Hardcast - 08/19/2015 3:34 PM
No need for 2 moulds, just two pots. The few I've made I learned on some of sixshots older post. Lead in one pot and ww in the other. Use a small case like 9mm for the lead and a ladle for ww. When everything is ready pour 9mm case of lead in first then follow with ww. Mine ain't no where as pretty as those who cast alot but I'm working on it. You can soft cast nose 25 or so and ww several hundred. Practice with the hardcast and load up the soft nose cast for hunting. The ones I've used, there has been no difference in accuracy. My hats are off to those who cast alot.
Posted By: SChunter
Re: Soft Hardcast - 08/20/2015 10:34 AM
Man this is good stuff guys! Thank you!! I have been using the Cast Performance bullets, and love the accuracy I am getting with them. SChunter, what you said kinda makes it click... a little bit. Being that lead is soft, what kind of weight retention do you guys expect with these soft nose hard cast bullets? I would figure the "soft" part would slough off during impact / expansion. Too rapid / too much expansion would mean the mushroom gets thin, which would cause it to weaken and break off, wouldn't it?? I guess maybe this is why these bullets are run a little slower?
RT, the only one that I'm aware that stayed in an animal was captured by James from Jersey in a pig a year or so ago. Perhaps he or Glenn can share a pic from that recovery. Incredible bullet expansion and weight retention.
Just like with jacketed bullets, there is velocity window for optimal performance - it just so happens that the BHN of these bullets that I have on hand work really well at 1000-1100 fps, yielding great accuracy in my gun, excellent terminal performance, without the crazy recoil that I get with increased velocity.
Could I drive it harder? Yes - would the bullet hold up? Probably not.
As far as it being a new idea, it's not - Look up the writings of Glen Fryxell. He has some great articles on the subject. But Sixshot has some great Miha molds and has the hardness down perfect for the Bullet design and the velocities we want to drive them. Plus, he is an extremely accomplished handgunner, hunter, and not to mention, a super nice guy
Posted By: GlennS
Re: Soft Hardcast - 08/20/2015 12:00 PM
These are not new concepts and folks have been using them for a LONG time but for a while, we seemed to have migrated away and thought that harder bullets must be better, and for certain applications, they certainly are but for normal non dangerous game hunting, I think the softer cast bullets are the best of both worlds.
Y'all are talking two different things right now. There is a difference in a soft nosed cast bullet and what we are using in the big HP in the 475/480 right now. The Soft nosed cast bullet was cast from two alloys by either using a dipper for the nose material followed by a hard alloy or the process used a two part mold as mentioned earlier.
The ones we are using now are a homogenous material. They are approximately 9 BRN. Now, the design of the bullet comes in as well which also goes back to the old Ross Seyfried material. This portion plays into a question you asked about earlier. Both bullet types are made to excel in circumstances mentioned. However, in both instances, the result and goal is the same. Achieve a "splash" when the bullet first hits as a jacketed bullet does and grab what expansion you can and then the usual penetration. However, unlike a jacketed bullet, which can shed a jacket or come to pieces due to construction of two or more alloys, the homogenous soft lead alloy stays together. If you shear the nose, the base continues to track forward and exits, I've never had a jacketed work like that for me on any critter if the nose section begins to separate from the majority of the bullet. At that point is when they usually come apart. On the soft NOSE cast bullet, the nose is the only thing that is soft, when they are water quenched during casting, the shank is probably 20-22 BRN and the nose is 5-6. It deforms FAST and can smear or wipe off but typically the "donut" will happen as mentioned in Ross's article. The splash happens at impact, the shank continues tracking through for your exit. I think Ross described it as a jacketed bullet with a built in safety valve or something like that. Haven't read the article in years, may need to go do that today...
Now the softer alloy bullets that we are using now are a mix of wheelweight and pure lead. Dick casts this at different mixtures depending on anticipated velocity. It is IMPERATIVE that the alloy mixture be adjusted for velocity or you are setting yourself up for failure. He has a mixture ratio that he uses for different velocity ranges and if you buy them from him, you have to let him know what you plan to run them at to make sure the mix is right. We have found that the 70/30 mix at 1100-1150 is just magic with the big 475 bullet which is exactly what Dick's velocity range indicated. You would never know he has been handgun hunting and casting forever would you
When I originally had the 385 grain 475 bullet design drawn up about 4-5 years ago, we went back and forth but I had several items I wanted for sure. Ability to cast solid or HP but the most important was that when the big HP pins were in place, that the base of the HP cavern left approximately 1 bullet diameter in length for the shank in the event that the bullet shed everything from the base of the HP cavern up. Ross's early studies showed that if the you had one diameter in length left of the shank if the nose sheared, then it would continue to travel straight and not veer. Now...this is where I think the homogenous material bullets really shine. Think about this for a second. The obvious advantage is that the homogenous bullet is MUCH less of a pain to cast for these guys. BUT, what I liked that really changed the game for me in shooting them is thinking about what Ross said about shank length and the design of the two part bullet. In order to achieve what he found was best for straight line tracking, it would mean that part of your bullet that is in contact with the bore will be pure lead. The best way to keep one from leading was to try and keep the pure lead portion only in the nose and forward of the driving band area. However, on some bullets, this would be a problem if you were to try and keep only one diameter of the bullet intact. Longer shanks can cause veering. There is the fact that portions of the leading will be "scrubbed" maybe by the super hard alloy behind it but with the homogenous bullets kept in the velocity range they are cast for, there are NONE of those problems. The bullet type is all one so you are not trying to bond two unlike materials together and they are more likely to stay together from the start. In the event that you do encounter something that is able to shed the mushroom portion of the slug during contact, the base continues straight and you get the result of a normal cast solid. You have in this case a .476" wadcutter busting out the other side. I was able to really see that portion shine last January. I shot a large pig that was like shooting concrete. Just solid muscle and no fat layer that you normally encounter. the nose petals sheared it appeared on two shots through the center of the shoulders. However, I had perfect in line exit holes. The internal damage was impressive to say the least. The lungs had absolutely no color, just pale off white look due to blood loss I guess. There were large holes through the lungs and the heart and continuing on the other side but there was evidence of the petals passing through the lungs as well. That is not a bad thing. The hog didn't go far as both shots were in pretty fast succession but I thought that it performed very well encountering such a dense animal at 40 yards. The same thing happened on the bison that was mentioned. I had two 1" holes in both rib cages and lost a petal in the offside shoulder on exit. But the bison was down in 3 seconds or so and blood loss was impressive. The old "ropes of blood" description came to mind as he turned sideways and had streams shooting out both sides as he fell.
We are getting 100% weight retention on the recovered samples and both that we have recovered on the 475 were .93-.95" in diameter with perfect mushrooms. You can follow this link and there are pics of the mushroom I recovered from a pig last December as well.
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthre...206#post3349206If you are a caster, you can buy one of the molds right now as we are doing a rerun for the MIHEC mold. We had enough requests due to the new Ruger that we thought it would be a good time to do it. We will close buy at 25 molds as Miha already has the mold blocks ready so this will be a FAST turnaround on these rather than the years of wait I had in the beginning when I did it the first time.
June of 1989 is the article you are looking for on Seyfried articles on the soft nose cast. Those are the two part design. I've used them on Elk and they did a good job, I just had a pissed and adrenaline pumped elk to shoot. the damage was extensive though, she just didn't know she was dead. Having said that though, I much prefer what we are using now. I have the 270 SAA HP bullets ready for 1100-1150 fps second loads in my Casull that are powder coated OD green and soft which should be GREAT in the new Ruger. Hope this helped a little, I know I left out a lot that I was thinking but can add it later if it comes back to me
PS....send me your email address and I'll send you an invite to my Dropbox where I have ALOT of the Ross articles in PDF format and you can download them there. There is also an index that will explain which are which in the month/year listing codes its saved in....
GS
Pics of the recovered bullet from a hog I shot last December. The shot was about 45 yards broadside. The hide must have stretched about 2 feet from the feel of it when she was on the ground. But I was happy to finally recover one. I felt sure I'd recover the bison slug but no dice. The load is 14.5 grains HS6 in the 475 Linebaugh and runs about 1100 from my 6" Freedom Arms gun. 15 grains ran 1167 from my 5.5" Linebaugh gun and that was the one I shot the bison with. I slowed it down due to the composition of the bullet being a little softer and it was running faster than I planned. I could see streaks of lead in barrel after about 20 shots. Not a problem but at 1100, I get absolutely no leading, amazing accuracy at 100 yards and perfect performance for what I'm wanting. It may not be everyone's cup of tea but it surely is working for me and a few others.
Here are a few of the 270 SAA bullets. Cast out at about 285 grains and are using the HP as well. They should be exceptional for deer. I wanted to try the powder coating thing so I coated these. The oven softens the bullet as you cure the powder. They are probably about 9-10 as well. I hit one with a small hammer three or four times just to see how powder coat reacted. It was pretty cool to see it cracked like the lead, and it DID NOT flake off like you would think. The bond that it makes with the lead is very surprising to me. Accuracy has been REALLY good on these bullets. My buddy Jeff Hoover has done and extensive amount of comparison shooting with the PC bullets over the last year in various calibers and guns and the results have been very positive. If you take some hard cast bullets out there and hit them with a hammer, they will break due to being too hard or having the wrong composition...that is NOT what you want if you are trying to break bone. You want something between what these are in this picture and what the brittle ones are. I guess what I'm saying is the same as always, match the bullet to the game. You can get too much of a good thing sometimes
Posted By: Whitworth
Re: Soft Hardcast - 08/20/2015 3:25 PM
I am in the camp that when it "matters" I would go with the premium bullet. The Swift A frame comes to mind. At a buck a piece they seem like a bargain "when it matters", even to a Scotsman like myself. If you run the numbers on a hunt, the price of the bullet is the least expensive piece of equipment. It's performance is the one piece that has the final control of the outcome. The best bullet in the world is no guarantee since so many other factors come into play but it will stack the odds in the shooter's favor.
How do we define what matters? All animals count in my opinion. If I have thousands of dollars worth of trophy fees on the line I get not skimping on bullets. However, at the subdued velocities these bullets work, I wouldn't worry about failure in the least, and frankly if penetration is on the table, I'm not looking at jacketed expanding bullets. But, that's just me. These soft-nosed hardcasts evidently work like gangbusters. I am planning on testing them very soon myself as sixshot was gracious enough to send me some of these some time ago.
+1
I was hoping you would chime in!
They work..... The opening to the Holland Tunnel is huge hence the name of the bullet....
Posted By: GlennS
Re: Soft Hardcast - 08/20/2015 7:14 PM
I like to see the one I recovered and the one you recovered. It definitely shows the consistency. Then you measure them and they are within a couple thousandths in diameter of each other with basically 100% weight retention. Very cool. After finally catching a couple of them in critters, it also explains the nearly perfectly circular 1" hole in the ribcages of the bison. I have a pretty good idea what the slug looked like as it passed through
The lubed bullet weighed 388.0 grains and when recovered it weighed 383.5 grains... This was the 14.0 grain HS-6 load fired from my
5 1/2" 475 Bisley....
Posted By: cottonstalk
Re: Soft Hardcast - 08/21/2015 12:22 AM
Glenn them pc bullets sure are pretty. I got some red ones in 44mag and I like them alot. I've not yet been able to recover one. I thought maybe the bear would hold it, but that was a no go. They'll be launched again several times this year, we'll see what happens. If I have as good a year as last, the critters will probably start a petition to ban them here.
Posted By: GlennS
Re: Soft Hardcast - 08/21/2015 12:43 AM
I was keeping up with your kills last year. I was glad to see them do as well as they did for you! I was impressed with the bear for sure. I just haven't been able to bring myself to shoot a red one yet
what were the longer distance shots, bear or deer. I can't remember? Could you see signs of expansion like I'm describing in the exits etc?
I had to figure out a crazy color so they didn't look like deadly lipstick. I guess that would definitely be a way to put lipstick on a pig
Posted By: cottonstalk
Re: Soft Hardcast - 08/21/2015 1:27 PM
Deer was longest at 97 yards. Bear was self defense range. I got some great expansion on deer, but I stepped on the gas pedal to the point of just a little room for safety. I backed off to the infamous 21gr of 2400 not the huge splash but steady controlled damage. The wound tracks were some of the most impressive I've seen in that caliber.
Posted By: GlennS
Re: Soft Hardcast - 08/21/2015 1:47 PM
I bet it was impressive at the upper end velocities
Posted By: daywolf
Re: Soft Hardcast - 09/16/2015 3:58 PM
Where can I find more info on these molds?
Posted By: GlennS
Re: Soft Hardcast - 09/16/2015 6:16 PM
Where can I find more info on these molds?
which one? There are several discussed in this thread, the 44, 45, or 475? Miha molds or the old two part deals that we discussed? The miha molds can be found on the group buy section of cast bullet forum. We are doing a 4th run on the 475 bullet right now. The one I mentioned earlier has already finished and most of the molds have been delivered I think. But this next one is still open and will likely be open a little while to make sure anyone that may want one with the new Rugers and such out, can get in on this buy.
the 44 and 45 versions of the 270 SAA and the HG503 molds are still run from time to time. You just have to see when someone wants to run one again. I'm thinking it would be a bad thing to run again. I can work on that if there are enough that want to do it.
thanks!
GS
Posted By: GlennS
Re: Soft Hardcast - 09/27/2015 2:07 AM
Go to the Cast Bullet Forum and there is an active buy page. I have several of these running now you can sign up to buy.
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/forumdisplay.php?55-Active-Group-Buys
