357 mag technical numbers needed

I have another buddy that wants to get into handgun hunting for next year. However, here in Colorado, we have to have a minimum of 550fpe at 50 yards to be legal. He might get a Colt Python that he wants to hunt with. He wants to shoot the 140gr leverevolution ammo through it for deer. Does anyone have the ACTUAL numbers on this ammo out of a 6" barrel? I need real velocity numbers, not "should be...." type of numbers.

The box gives info for an 18" rifle barrel, so it does us no good. Need to know the numbers out of a 6" barrel to find out if this ammo would be legal for him or not.

He has access to several boxes of it for a GREAT price if it works, so need to know for sure before buying it. So no speculation please. If it doesn't work, I told him about buffalo bore, and double tap, but this stuff would be a lot more expensive.

Yes, I told him about reloading, and he plans to do this, but right now, funds don't allow the purchase of the dillon press and all the components.

I'm hoping one of you has "been there and done that", and can give real numbers. I need the velocity you got, and from there, I can do the equation for the actual fpe.

Unless your Game Officers carry around a chronograph, they're going to rely on the published data on the manufactures box.

Back in the days when you had to pass a written test as well as a shooting test to hunt with a handgun in Colorado, I was a certified tester for the DOW. The hunter had to take the shooting test with a handgun that would meet the minimum requirements and we always considered the .357 magnum with heavy factory loads as legal.

Thanks guys. I checked with the local game warden that does my falconry stuff. He said if we have the information of what the chrony said, it would be good enough for him. Without it, he would have to have it tested himself.

Gregg-- the info on the box doesn't pertain to handguns, so what info is used at that point? Was it just automatically declared to be illegal? I don't think the leverevolution would classify as "heavy factory loads" though either. So maybe they aren't legal.

If we reload, the warden told us to keep a printout from a chrony that gave the velocities, and then have the bullet weight and the rest of the information on the inside label of the box. He actually told us, "If you reload, you essentially have 'factory ammo' that you created". He seemed pretty cool about the whole thing.

I've decided to help my buddy out, and get him set up for reloading with a bit of a loan, and then he can pay me back as he can. I figured if he is going to do this, might as well set him up for success as soon as possible rather than have a bunch of hoops for him to jump through.

He's excited, and that's half the battle.

Raptor,

I hopped on Youtube, and used "357 magnum leverevolution" as a search. I think the second video showed a guy with a 4" Taurus getting an average of 1352 fps at 12 yards. You should be able to find more videos, to get a warm fuzzy.

As an aside, what your Game Officer told you kinda worried me. He said you need the print-out from the chrony. I do not have a printer for my chrony, and while it has been a few years since hunting in Colorado, it is not a "never again" kind of thing.

Craig

Paul, you are getting kudos from me for starting out another handgun hunter.

My posting said that we testers and the DOW generally decided that factory .357 mag hunting loads were LEGAL, not illegal as you wrote. The point was "Let's not split hairs."

It bothers me that your particular DOW guy is coming across as a hair splitter. I hope that I am wrong, but for him to make the statement about the handloads that "he would have to have it tested himself" is exactly that: splitting hairs.

Does he not have any better things to do as in catching REAL POACHERS??? Sorry, but this seems out of line.

JMHO

PS: What if the "chrono" shows "only" 495 FPE? Don't we all know that it is more important to put it in the right spot?

Yeah I hear ya Gregg. He can be a hair splitter at times. You mentioned heavy loads, that's why I took it to mean that the leverevolution wouldn't qualify. I don't really consider those to be heavy loads at all. Not even close. I guess I misunderstood what you were saying.

I've got a call in to him about this specific ammo, and he is looking into it to see if it would be allowed or not.

Craig-- I would imagine if a person had the numbers written down, it would be just as good. But then again, this is Colorado, and I have yet to meet 2 game wardens that interpret things the same way. My falconry stuff is the same way. One warden tells me I have to have rabbits skinned and gutted in the freezer. Another tells me I have to have them gutted, but the skin can stay on. Yet another in Eastern Colorado tells my buddy they can be frozen with guts in and hair still on.

Haven't met anyone that has actually been nailed for rabbits frozen incorrectly, but just sayin....

Paul,

I am all to familiar with the "arbitrariness" with the Game Officers in Colorado. I went round and round with them over shooting off the hood of my Jeep. That one caused me to shoot my chrony, as I was so mad about the incident, I lost focus, flinched, and center punched the chrony. I had officers interpret that particular law 4 ways. Sitting in a vehicle shooting, one foot on the ground while sort of sitting in the vehicle, two feet on the ground, and this guy, any part of the gun touching the vehicle.

Back to your original query, something else that came to me yesterday while running some warm loads through my Colt NF 45. I had Peacemaker Specialists cut a 357 mag cylinder to 45 Colt for the gun. They used tight chamber mouth specs of 0.452. The factory throats were .456-.458. The exact same loads in both cylinders have the tighter throated cylinder shooting about 120 fps faster, at the chrony. I ran the numbers, and the original cylinder would not make the 550/50, whereas the tighter one does. I would say that any gun caliber that is close to the line will need to be individually tested.

If I ever decide to use a handgun in Colorado again, rather than using this Colt or any of my 45 Super or Rowland pistols/revolvers that can make it with handloads, I would probably just use my FA 454. My thought being that an officer would see the 454 Headstamp, and not even give the ammo a second thought. Which would be ironic, as my FA would probably be downloaded a bit.

Craig

Yeah I hear ya Craig. I talked to this same game warden and asked if 45 Colt was legal. He didn't even hesitate, and said it was. I didn't bother telling him that 45 Colt can be loaded WAAAAAY down to levels that are most likely not legal.

I wish they were more educated about our handguns, but at the same time, I don't really want to bring it up to them.

F.P.E? F.P.S.? In Indiana it does not matter. To be legal the handgun must be a 4-15.9 inch barrel, bullet diameter .243 inch minimum, case length 1.16 inch minimum. Neck a .357 magnum case down to .243 and presto! This makes the .256 Winchester a legal deer cartridge, but the 10mm is not. Our rifle rules are also based on case dimensions and bullet diameters. The C.O.s carry case gauges. I have been teaching Hunter Education classes for 23 years and met only one C.O. who reloaded or understood ballistics.

Maybe a person should trim 454 cases to use in the 45 Colt..... ;-)

This makes me glad I live in Tennessee. Our big game handgun hunting regulations are it must be a centerfire cartridge, and you must be 18 or older. Kind of hard to fall out of line in this state.

North Carolina is about the same as TN.

Here in SC the law reads ''Any center fire cartridge''.

Sure am glad my .25 Baby Browning is still legal for Deer

S4,

Now that there is a heck of an idea. The thing is, I do make sure I am at the legal minimum, so I would not not be in violation, by the letter of the law.

SW, that is good, as if you come to NM, you can also shoot elk with your Baby Browning. At least our state is a little smart. Legally you could shoot deer with a 22LR, but they know elk are bigger, so it has to be .243. So you are good to go.

Paul, that really shows that your warden sort of has no clue. The SAAMI 45 Colt will absolutely not make it, nor any ammo you would likely find on a store shelf. I think I hunted maybe 10 or so years in Colorado, and probably got check for something, 8 or 9 times. Been doing it 16 years in NM, and have never even seen a Game Officer in the field, much less been checked for anything. Been stopped a bunch down on the border hunting javelina, but those were always fed's, and they never went beyond seeing my non-hispanic looking face.

Craig

Yeah I hear ya Craig. I get stopped a lot when I'm in the field with my falconry stuff simply because I get people calling in to the DOW saying, "There's a guy with a eagle in the field". So they have to come say hi. We laugh about it, and move on. Happens at least two or three times a season. Granted, Anaya is a large Red Tailed Hawk, but she's not even CLOSE to eagle size.

Part of me is glad that people care enough about wildlife to call in and have an officer check things out. Another part of me just wishes people would mind their own dang business.

I realise falconry isn't something ya see every day, so I'm probably gonna get called in now and then. But I've only been checked a few times while fishing, and maybe twice while hunting here in Colorado. Always have everything with me, so it basically ends up being a short conversation and "how's the family doing" type of a stop. I'm the only falconer around these parts, so I've gotten to know the game wardens here pretty well. Makes it nice in a way.

in KS the law now states "center fired and not fully automatic" so much for my full auto 22LR pistol hunt lol

Is the Python cylinder long enough to accommodate the Flex Tip ammo?