forcing cone erosion

Hi Guys. I just had to have my FA .454 Casull's barrel replaced because of forcing cone erosion. The only bullets I've used have been the FA 260 grain when they made those and the rest have been Hornady XTPMags. I use the proper weight of W296. Has anyone experienced this with your FA .454? I spoke with John at FA and he was very helpful 'd be interested in what lads folks were using and especially what bullet. Thanks

yosey, I hav`ent had forcing cone problems with my FA`s 454 but couple of guys here had them by using Lil Gun powder in their handloads.... now you`ve got me thinking because I`ve had my 454 for 25 years and I have to check the cone... How did you know there was a problem with your gun??

James, I noticed the erosion while cleaning. My gun has some age on it. I believe it was made back in '90-91. Haven't shot it a significant amount, maybe 400 rounds over the years. For a while all my hand gun hunting was with contenders (6.5JDJ, .375JDJ, .45-70SSK, .35 Rem.SSK).I have stuck pretty much to W296 for my hand loads and FA bullets or Hornady XTPMags. I noticed the erosion last fall. It still shot very well, but I was concerned about safety and that's when i sent it back to FA.

YOSEY12: BEEN OCCUPIED GETTING READY TO LEAVE FOR ALASKA ON 5/24/19 AND TO GO TO MY RANCH ON 5/16/19 SO HAVE NOT PULLED OUT MY 5 FA 454's TO CHECK FOR FORCING CONE EROSION. DID CHECK MY MNP "PRACTICE" STALKER AND IT LOOKED FINE. IT HAS BEEN REBARRELED ONCE BUT THE CULPRITS PROBABLY WERE LIL'GUN POWDER AND/OR XTP BULLETS (THE NON "MAG" XTP's). BACK WHEN FA MADE BULLETS THEY EMPHASIZED THE IMPORTANCE OF HARD BULLETS, BUT AFTER FA SOLD THEIR BULLET MAKING MACHINES THEY JUST KIND OF QUIT EMPHASIZING "HARD" BULLETS. IN A PDF HANLOADING AID FROM FA, STILL AVAILABLE ON THE INTERNET, THEY STATE THAT HIGHER VELOCITIES AND SOFT BULLETS BOTH ACCELERATE FORCING CONE EROSION. LIL'GUN WAS ALSO A BIG FORCING CONE EROSION CULPRIT. I HAVE OFTEN WONDERED IF THE XTP MAG BULLETS ARE "HARD" ENUFF, AS I HAVE MY DOUBTS THAT THEY WOULD BE, AND I SHUDDER TO THINK OF THE HARM GUYS MAY HAVE DONE AND MAY BE DOING TO THEIR BARRELS WITH 240 MAG XTP's IN 454's AND 460's.

I THINK YOU HAVE 3 POPSSIBLE CULPRITS: 1) YOU USED LIL'GUN BUT HAVE FORGOTTEN YOU DID; 2) HV LOADS WITH THE 260's; AND/OR 3) THE XTP's. ONE OTHER THING, I DO NOT KNOW HOW BAD YOUR EROSION WAS, MAYBE YOU DID NOT NEED TO REBARREL? FA IS NOT GOING TO TURN DOWN A REBARREL JOB, SO WHO KNOWS.

Yosey, sounds like your not the first owner of your 454...

I "ASSUMED" THAT THE GUN WAS BOUGHT NEW AND ONLY HAD 400 ROUNDS THRU IT, IF IT WAS BOUGHT USED WHO KNOWS ITS HISTORY.

fellows, I cleaned my FA 454 and could see tiny knicks around the end of the barrel where enters the frame.. they don`t go into the into the barrel..

45MAN, your assumption is correct. It was bought brand new and I have never used Lil'Gun before. Maybe it was the XTPmags. I gave FA my load information and they said it should be ok with the xtpmags. I have 50 or so loaded up now and I am concerned about using them when I get my gun back. I may skip them all together and just use factory loads for a while.

Yosey, Your right about not shooting your gun much.. you said it was made in 90-91 so its about 29 years old and you bought it new shooting only 400 rounds. That`s not much at all.. What did the erosion on your gun look like?? My FA 454 is 24 years old and I really don`t know how many rounds I shot with most of them being factory or factory equivalent handloads but I can say I would handload until I filled a coffee can for a range day. 99.9% were jacketed bullets. The tiny knicks I mentioned above are the only thing out of ordinary.. Maybe Rey was right saying you may have forgot using Lilgun cause that`s the only way I can see eroding the barrel with 400 rounds...

interesting

YOSEY: WHAT WERE YOUR LOADS WITH THE FA 260's AND THE 300 XTP MAGS? HOW MUCH 296 WERE YOU USING?

improperly heat treated barrel? poo happens. I'm going to take him at his word, new gun, 400 rounds, and no little-gun. no offence intended, do you know what your looking at? i've been shooting revolvers for 40 years and wouldn't know a eroded forcing cone unless it looked like a washed out gravel road. keep it coming i find this vary interesting.

Funny but I`am the same...

All I'm saying is if you encountered forcing cone erosion at 400 rounds, I'd send it to the scrap pile.

Pay that kind of money for something and this happens with a low round count? Screw that.

Can you provide a picture? I just can't see it eroding with that few rounds. Even if it was junk steel.

Don't mean to sound like a prick, but I find this odd.

I sent a picture to FA and the gun itself and they said it was the forcing cone. Right at the beginning of the barrel where the bullet jumps from the cylinder to enter the barrel used to be a smooth ring. Now the inside of that ring is jagged and looks eroded. Don't know what else to say. I've had the gun for many years, but there have been stretches where I haven't shot it for multiple years. My load with the XTPMags are 300 gr xtpmag and 27 gr W296. The 240 gr xtpmag is loaded with 36 gr W296. I thought this was hot enough, but maybe I'm not using enough powder.
I'm not trying to blame anyone here and certainly FA has been very good to work with. I'm just trying to see if anyone else has had similar problem.

I'd like to see what this looks like. Can you post a pic?

I don't know how to post a picture on this site.

YOSEY12: I JUST SENT YOU A MESSAGE WITH MY CELL # AND EMAIL, IF YOU WILL TEXT OR EMAIL ME THE PICTURE(S) OF THE EROSION I WILL GET THE PICTURE(S) POSTED FOR YOU.

MAYBE THE CULPRIT WAS THE 240XTP's.

I have totally roasted my forcing cones and the face of the cylinder in my FA's and they still shoot little tiny groups at a 100 yards...So don't overthink this as a "problem that you need to throw a bunch or money at "unless" the gun won't shoot.
My 454 was pretty bad. And now I have around 9,000 rounds through my 475L and it looks like the forcing cone was cleaned with a triangle file.

Remember the original FA83's used to come with a replaceable forcing cone because they are so hard on them.

I can't help with the cause for your cone erosion. I have ruined two barrels in FA 454's but they were due to Lil Gun. I was advised to switch to 4227 powder as it would be easier on the forcing cone than any of the ball powders. Velocities are not as high but accuracy has been great. 4227 is also less temperature sensitive.



Dan

THIS!!!!

I CHECKED THE FORCING CONE ON A FA 454 TODAY THAT ONCE BELONGED TO TRADMARK. THIS REVOLVER HAS CLOSE TO A 100 KILLS AND, KNOWING TRADMARK, A LOT OF ROUNDS THRU IT. PROBABLY THE ONLY THING TRADMARK DID NOT SEND DOWN THE BARREL OF THAT GUN IS A STICK OF DYNAMITE. CHEROKEETRACKER HAS THE GUN NOW, THE FORCING CONE LOOKS GREAT, AND THE GUN IS STILL VERY ACCURATE.

Back when this subject (forcing cone erosion)was a hot topic in the Ruger .357 Maximum revolvers, some of the suggested causes were the cartridge itself, lightweight bullets at high velocity, Lil Gun powder, and barrel cylinder gap. Now, some 20 plus years later, the prime culprits are Lil Gun and the 260 gr. XTP bullet. Although FA is known for its tight tolerances, it would be interesting to know the BC gap on the affected revolvers.

I have head and read the reports regarding forcing cone erosion an LilGun. That I can understand.

What I can't quite wrap my head around is what is the issue with the 260gr XTP? Why would say the XTP be problematic but the XTP mag would not be?

Regarding the hardness, I was under the impression the difference between the XTP and the mag version was in jacket thickness and the skiving on the nose to make the mag version require a higher velocity to begin to open. I wouldn't think that would cause any changes in what occurs before the bullet leaves the barrel.

WE HAVE BEEN DISCUSSING A 240gr XTP MAG, NOT 260 (I DO NOT THINK THERE IS SUCH A BULLET). DID NOT KNOW THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN A XTP AND A XTP MAG. IF THEY BOTH HAVE THE SAME LEAD CORE MATERIAL THEN A 240 XTP MAG AT HV MAY BE HARMFUL TO BARRELS. I HAVE NEVER BEEN TEMPTED TO DRINK THE 240 XTP MAG KOOLAID.

You are correct, 240gr. I fat fingered the bullet weight in my post.

Not to hijack this thread, but would the same problematic conditions that erode the forcing code (certain bullets, powders, etc,) in revolvers cause accelerated throat erosion in a single shot?

NOT SURE ABOUT LIL'GUN, BUT PRETTY SURE THAT THE REASONS SOME BULLETS HAVE PROBLEMS IN REVOLVERS ARE NOT FACTORS IN SINGLE SHOTS.

That was what prompted my question about forcing come erosion above. I have a 10.5" RPM in .357 Max in which I use nothing but Lil Gun, and have not experienced any throat erosion. I also use bullets that are heavier than 180 grain. For whatever that is worth.