I've been taking my Ruger SBH .44 out lately and putting some time in on it. It's an original, unmodified 3-screw in excellant, practically new condition. It is shooting great, but I am getting powder blowing back and peppering the left side of my face on a regular basis. Not a lot, feels like 2 or 3 grains, usually on or around my left ear lobe (I was using plugs instead of covered by muffs). The ammo is PMC Bronze cheap factory 240grn JHP stuff I picked up on sale for some range time. It's starting to make me flinch a little in anticipation of the sting, even as light as it it. It's just the idea of it, I guess. Anybody have any ideas? Ammo, or unseen problem with gun?

A couple of things come to mind.

1) Excessive cylinder gap
2) Cylinder timing is off

The first is easy to check. Take a feeler gague and determine what the thickest gague you can push between the cylinder and forcing cone. You should be in the range of .003" to about .005". Much wider and you will start to get too much blast and junk coming out at the shot.

The second is a bit more tricky in that you really need something like a range rod to ensure that when the hammer is dropped, the cylinder is in the proper alignment with the bore. You don't need to be off by very much to start shaving bits of bullet off as it makes the jump from the cylinder throat to the forcing cone.


I think it would also be worthwhile to try some different ammo. It may be the ammo that is responsible as well.

Change ammo!
Sounds like magnum primers moving the bullet out before good ignition and powder blown from the gap. If it was lead, you would know and also find it on the cylinder face. You can't get lead with jacketed anyway.
You should load your own ammo anyway.

It may not be easy to solve. I had a Dan Wesson years ago that was doing that. It would eat me alive whenever I shot it. I had the timing checked fooled with the gap and sent it back to DW - nothing fixed the problem and I finally just sold it. Certainly do what's suggest above but it may be just one of those guns...

Primers do not force a bullet out of the case before the powder ignites, if anything a hot primer will ignite the powder faster

I'd try different ammo before I got too excited. Excessive cylinder gap and/or slow powder or a combination thereof could be to blame. You can see an obvious misalignment of cylinder to bore by shining a flashlight into the breechface gap when looking down the muzzle while the gun is locked up.

Out of square forcing cone and/or cylinder may be the problem

Wouldn't misalignment, timing problems or forcing cone problems affect accuracy? I'm getting great groups, at least for me. Even with this cheap ammo. Three shots all touching each other at 20 yards, off handed with open sights. I certainly will try some differant ammo, but I can visibly see no mechanical problems with the gun. I must admit that I may not know what I'm looking at, however.

Have it rechambered to 45 colt

Not sure what that could be.If you change ammo it will give you a place to start eliminating ideas.Let us know what you find.

Mr. Briar, can you post some pictures of the powder marks the next time you go to the range???

OH, and how do you know that?

Well find out. Stick a round with out any powder in the cylinder and see what happens… I am just say…

I know that a 209 shotgun primer will, on its own, move an ounce and an eighth of lead shot the length of a 30" full choke 12 gauge barrel, only to trickle out the muzzle. Please don't ask how I know this..... ;-)

Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha


I "JUST" moved and I dont have my reloading stuff unpacked yet or I would have already tried...

A primer with no powder yes, but with powder the powder ignites with the primer brilliance nearly instantly.

Place a bit of powder on the ground and expose it to a spark, the burns is near instantaneous

In my case the problem was moisture in the base of some picked up hulls, inexperience from the early years. Unless the charge had been compromised as such I am certain that I would have killed that goose.

Sit and think before you make decisions. Do not follow what you read as some do. Do the work and ignore the master experts in the gun rags. These days they sell products without real information.
Nobody has shot more sub 1" groups at 100 yards then I have with a bunch of out of box revolvers. That with cast boolits too.
I talk primers, I know primers, believe who you will.
Load your ammo to my loads but change the primer and I will tell you what you have after one group.
I am never afraid to post pictures because I want to teach and help in any way unlike some that make claims without proof.
It rubs moderators the wrong way so I can not challenge. I can not call anyone out. I just try to hold back but some should really ask, show me!
Let me show you what I mean. Many say a heavy boolit can be shot slow. Not true and this is a group with my 330 gr, .44 mag, standard primer at the right velocity at 200 yards.

Then the same boolit at 50 yards at about 1000 fps.

I am not here to argue, but to make better shooters of all of you. If you accept what I find, good, but if you choose to listen to those with nothing but claims I can not help.
Twist, velocity, starting pressure, alloy, primer, spin rate and many other things can turn your gun into a slug or better then a rifle.
__________________

I can tell you one thing for sure. A magnum primer in the .44 will triple groups because it has too much pressure and moves boolits from the brass at different amounts before ignition is fully started. Each shot will have a different case capacity depending on boolit movement.
Accuracy death I call it.
Primer pressure is different then primer heat. You need fire.
Listen to the man that knows or listen to the man that reads what he knows.
Even Federal has started loading .44 rounds with standard primers. Have they read my posts?

I asked a simple question about the performance of my firearm and factory ammo. That's all. I've gotten some good answers that I am looking into, and I appreciate it. 430man, my friend, you might want to ease up on the caffein. My life is very full right now, and re-loading is not an option. There's going to be no good come of getting off the original topic of conversation and making things personal about your methods and beliefs in reloading. I stated in the original post that I was shooting factory ammo, and was just making sure there was not a mechanical problem with the revolver. Your pictures of a group you shot at 200 yards with your personal handloads are impressive, but they are not helping my stinging left earlobe.

If it's OK, I'd just as soon this not turn into another snortin' match, as I've seen some other post topics in the past end up. Please.

I understand and factory ammo limits you. I have tested a lot of it with sorry results myself. Even top end cast loads using a wonderful boolit show a problem.
I am really sorry to disturb you but anything I say turns into a personal dispute with one poster with an agenda I can not explain. His disputes do harm to knowledge without showing proof. It has reached the point that if I repeat him, he will dispute me. That ruins problem solving that I work so hard for to help all others.
I do not get angry and just show what I say but he avoids that.
Back to basics, are the factory loads you are shooting using magnum primers? Try Federal ammo and see. That is up in the air too if they flip-flop.
I can only say with 100% proof that mag primers will open groups with the .44.
You jumped on me but never asked the other poster for proof of his claims.
You are trapped in the "buy" load stuff and will never reach what your gun can do. Do not expect a whole lot.

Remember we are all on the same side here… AND… we are here to learn as well.

Remember that this is a sight filled with many different backgrounds and beliefs. In short, not everyone is going to walk the same path. As handgunners we already walk the path less traveled.

I did not intend to jump on you, and apologize if it came across that way. I just wanted to point out that things were getting a little ragged and off-topic. My firearms do all I need them to do with good factory ammo like Buffalo Bore, they are capable of shooting tighter groups than I am. Any better performance of the ammo would be lost in the limitations of the shooter. I get 2" groups at 50 yards with iron sites, and I'm happy with that. After all, it's for close range hunting.

I did take the gun out and shoot it with the afore mentioned BB ammo, and got no powder burns, so the problem apparently was with the PMC ammo afterall.

Again, I ment no conflict, but intended to diffuse it, however clumsy my attempt might have been. Sorry. There is enough conflict out in the world without us perculatin' our own on here.

This is me, virtually offering a virtual handshake ...

You are a gentleman and your shake is accepted.
BB is good stuff, so is Double Tap. Many others too.
But assessments of posts for personal vendettas by others should be stopped.
I only offer what I have found for others to try and to be attacked over and over just makes it all go away for all of you great fellas.
A simple question and a simple answer is readily turned into a battle because some guy is looking through a peephole to see what I say so he can attack with not a single proof to back him up. He does the same on other sites.
Do you know the best part? I really like the guy! He is smart, knows his guns, is a great hunter. Only a comment on a certain revolver I made turned him into the Grinch.

Glad to hear that you found the culprit and all is well.....

briar,glad you found a easy and simple solution.Did it stop the peppering you were experiencing also?

Yes, it did. I don't know what was actually causing it with the other ammo, but that's what it was.

Great. I am glad things got better.
I have had some factory loads that had excessive crimps and boolits pulled under recoil so as the cylinder came to each shot, the boolits were out farther and farther until cylinder lock up. That is a change in case capacity for each shot too. Accuracy death!
Yes, a high pressure primer can move a bullet out a little before powder gets a full burn. That is the reason no magnum primer will grace my .44 with ANY powder.
Larger calibers like the .475 and .500 will want a mag primer.
Even my BFR 45-70 revolver uses a LP mag and not a rifle primer. The rifle primer is too much.
Go back to a .45 ACP in a revolver and the LP primer is also too much. Go to a SP case and you will cut groups by half. The SP primer even works better in a 1911.
Go to a .454 with a SR mag primer and slow powder like H110, 296. Only max loads will go off. Starting loads can have the powder and bullet blown into the barrel with no ignition. Pressure without fire. Open pockets for a LP primer and none fail but a LP mag is more accurate.
I am not blowing smoke, primers are so very important you can not overlook any.

You continue to calaim that a mag primer forces the bullet out of the case before the powder ignites. What do you base this on? The mag primer has more flame, known as brilliance than a standard primer. When the primer is struck by the firing pin a flash is created and the powder ignites near instantly then bullet clears the barrel in milliseconds.

There is no basis for your claim, absolutely none

Oh no, here we go again. I'm closing my eyes, I can't look.

Me2 ;-)

Me too, I quit!

While I make no claim to be an expert, the following link will direct you to the writings of someone who is an expert on the subject of primers.

Mysteries And Misconceptions Of The All-Important Primer http://www.shootingtimes.com/2011/01/04/ammunition_st_mamotaip_200909/

Mr. Jones was the chief ballastician for Speer/CCI for years.

THAT'S A GOOD READ!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Well now, it seems to explain my claims doesn't it?
I am not an expert but I did figure out the problem just sitting at my bench.
Case size and volume dictates the primer and the .44 is too small for a mag primer unless temps are well below zero.
Thank you for that post, it verifies what I said, by a true expert.
JWP can no longer dispute me. Case closed!

Looks like you've applied this statement: "You can have too much primer. When the output gas volume of the primer approaches that of the cartridge case, sometimes special handling is required. I remember when CCI was working with some experimental primers for 9mm Luger, and we started seeing odd time-pressure curves on the computer. Instead of the normal single peak, we saw two. One QA tech commented that it looked like the dual humps of a Bactrian camel." to the .44 Magnum (he was talking about a 9mm).

He did say the following about magnum primers:

"Literature from some propellant manufactures often says that their products do not require Magnum primers. This is perceived as a good thing because Magnum primers are made in smaller quantities and require more chemicals; therefore, they are more expensive. However, I had to take a different view, one based on real-world issues.



We tested loads at both maximum normal pressures and at the starting loads (some labs calculate start loads—we shot them). Standard primers caused no ignition issues at the max load but posted higher extreme variations in pressure and velocity in the lower pressure regimes of the start loads. In extreme cases, the start loads produced short delayed firings—probably in the range of 20 to 40 milliseconds but detectible to an experienced ballistician. Switching that propellant to a Magnum primer smoothed out the performance across the useful range of charge weights and completely eliminated the delays.



If I’ve recommended a Magnum primer in reloading data I’ve developed, it’s because my lab results show it’s needed."

Just to clarify as you may have taken that out of context.

Too Much Primer
You can have too much primer. When the output gas volume of the primer approaches that of the cartridge case, sometimes special handling is required. I remember when CCI was working with some experimental primers for 9mm Luger, and we started seeing odd time-pressure curves on the computer. Instead of the normal single peak, we saw two. One QA tech commented that it looked like the dual humps of a Bactrian camel.

It was a classic case of high gas volume but too little temperature. The primer’s extra gas unseated the bullet while still trying to light off the main charge, producing one peak. Then the bullet retarded as it engaged the rifling, creating the second peak. Although a shooter would never notice this in a production firearm, that double hump was worrisome, and we abandoned that mix.
Why did you omit this part?

He also said this:

"Literature from some propellant manufactures often says that their products do not require Magnum primers. This is perceived as a good thing because Magnum primers are made in smaller quantities and require more chemicals; therefore, they are more expensive. However, I had to take a different view, one based on real-world issues.


We tested loads at both maximum normal pressures and at the starting loads (some labs calculate start loads—we shot them). Standard primers caused no ignition issues at the max load but posted higher extreme variations in pressure and velocity in the lower pressure regimes of the start loads. In extreme cases, the start loads produced short delayed firings—probably in the range of 20 to 40 milliseconds but detectible to an experienced ballistician. Switching that propellant to a Magnum primer smoothed out the performance across the useful range of charge weights and completely eliminated the delays.


If I’ve recommended a Magnum primer in reloading data I’ve developed, it’s because my lab results show it’s needed."



Don't just pull the parts that support your argument, look at the whole document. I don't have a dog in this fight, but you're not approaching this objectively.

Whit, why do my loads shoot better then anything you bring to test?
Why do your guns shoot so good with my loads?
Could it be that I know what I am doing?
Remember, when you come to load for your .44, I can hide the standard primers and you can load to your specs only.
If you don't think a primer can unseat a .44 boolit before ignition, say so, I can fix you up.

You are missing the point entirely. I was pointing out that you are cherry picking parts out of the article to support your argument, but you've glossed over the bit about magnum primers. I am not disputing that you have fully developed YOUR loads.

The only .44 I hunt with is my Bisley Hunter and I have never used your loads in it -- not once. I have seen what they do at the trange, and on game, but I have never used them. In fact, the one animal I have taken with it was a wild hog last March and I was shooting factory loads. You can use whatever primers you want in your loads.

I have shot nothing but mag primers for years. 44sp’s, 44 mag’s, nothing but mag primers and I always found a load that worked for me in my guns. The main difference I noticed was in the 44 sp with a 240 cast bullet. At 16gr 2400 it was a puff cake and at 17 gr of 2400 it had a VERY noticeable increase in both recoil and muzzle blast. (I used the mag primers because I didn’t have an standard ones and couldn’t get my hands on any at the time, so I made do with what I had.)

I think the article very clearly states that mag primers can and should be utilized in certain situations. They may not be the right choice “all” the time, but they are by no means the wrong choice either.