hi Guys, I am hoping you could help me. I found an Encore RIFLE frame (in Factory box w/ serial #) at a local gunstore. I have a couple of rifle barrels, and the frame was at a good price, so I told them I'd take it. The guy behind the counter tells me that I have to go get a HANDGUN permit to buy it. Oh boy, here we go. I tried to explain that since the frame left the factory as a RIFLE frame, no handgun permit is required. No way he was going to listen. Does anybody have a website address for the ATF to show this guy he is wrong? I think this was covered here before, complete with a letter from the ATF. Also, if I listen to this guy and get a handgun permit, am I technically commiting a crime? Thanks, Tom

the website address for the atf is www.atf.gov
I feel sorry for any of you that have to get a permit for a handgun, so far here in oregon the only requirement besides the normal background check is you have to be 21

certain states do require it
a friend of mine from maryland, bought an encore muzzle loader rifle and had to do the pistol paper work
sorry

Tom. Sorry about that. It sounds like I'm Home. The chap in the shop must be an ex-South african policeman. Hope it worked out alright.

Tom,

The letter you refer to is one about converting a rifle to a handgun which is very illegal. Actually, you may be better off getting the handgun permit and then buying it as a handgun. Otherwise it will forever be rifle and you would be on the wrong side of the law if you ever put a handgun barrel on that frame. Then you should get in with a grassroots pro-gun organization and fight the law about having to have a handgun "permit".

Thanks guys, Gary, since this frame is now going to be "licensed" as a handgun, I guess that covers any barrel, handgun, rifle or muzzleloader. I wonder if all Encores, even muzzle loaders must be licensed as handguns? I was always under the impression that the frame was whatever it left the factory as. Strange! Thanks again.

To, I wouldn't bet that a license from a local or state agency is going to change the status of the frame in the eyes of the Feds.
The way I understand it, if it leaves the factory as a rifle frame, it is forever a rifle frame no matter what a local license might say.
I'm afraid that evn with your local license you would be violating federal law by sticking a handgun barrel on it.
Am I wrong guys?

Vance, that was exactly my argument with the guys at the gun store.

This topic gets beat to death every so often but, Vance your statement is true and Tom, if it is designated as a "rifle" frame then I wouldn't buy it unless the dealer marks that it is a handgun on any forms that you have to fill out. Then if it did leave the factory as a "rifle" the burden should be on the dealer for making the illegal conversion not you. I'm curious about this and I'm going to call T/C on Monday and find out if they specify whether a frame is a rifle or a handgun when it leaves the factory. They may have to because of ATF regs. I would also ask the dealer for a copy of the forms after signature.

Gary, Good idea-keep us posted. I know the frames are designated as rifle or handgun because you can give them the serial# and they will tell you what it was manufactured as. I was actually going to use this frame for a couple of rifle barrels, but it just irked me that I had to go through the extra effort to get a handgun permit when I didn't have to.

Gary,

I have already made that call and spoke to Tim Pancurak personally. He even sent me a letter explaining TC's legal departments official position on the interconversion of a rifle and a handgun as it relates to frames sold in either configuration. If I dig hard enough, I can find the letter and send a copy of it to you.

The fact is that frames do indeed leave the factory designated as rifles or pistols. The feds via the ATF choose to narrowly interpret the previous Sumpreme Court ruling to the effect that only handgun frames can be interconverted. TC, via their legal department, states that either frame type can be intereconverted. I even spoke to Tim at last year's NRA convention about this very topic and he again emphatically stated that either frame type could be interconverted. I asked him if TC was willing to pay my legal fees if he was wrong. There was a long silence after that question.

I was going to post the letter from TC the last time this topic came up, but didn't want to fan the flames. This topic seems to always lead to a heated argument.

Who to believe? The feds are going to prosecute you, not TC. Do I think that they are out there staking out the shooting ranges and silouette matches in order to make arrests? No. Do I want to be the test case? No again. Until the ATF says that its OK to interconvert rifle frames, my Encore rifle stays a rifle. I have too much at stake to prove a point over a $250 frame.

Just my $0.02.

Stush, Thank You for the reply. That is the info I was looking for. So if I understand the regs, I should get a handgun frame, then no matter what, I'm covered. Thanks again!

tom, actually you are right in the argument with the store clerk. as a designated rifle frame the only paperwork needed would be anything normally filled out for a rifle. that said, it would be illegal to put anything other than a rifle or shotgun barrel on it (federal felony). as far as what the toad in pa. said, his friend in md did unnecessary paperwork. until recently, i was employed at a gunshop here in md. so i'm quite familiar with these regulations. the only paperwork required for a 209x50 ml is normal rifle paperwork(4473). as far as putting the burden on the shop owner for selling a rifle frame as a pistol and let the atf have at him, that is not very good advice at all. the shop owner will get caught and fined. you'll get caught, gun taken, probably fined, and maybe jailed. like stush said, it just ain't worth it for a frame. go find one reg'd as a pistol frame and have at it!!!! p.s. don't listen to what t/c says either, they won't pay your fine or bail you out either.

Well I just spoke with Agent Smith of the ATF.(no this isn't a joke)and he explained that if a receiver was ever designated by the manufacture to be a rifle then making it into a pistol would be a violation. A"virgin" receiver can be made into a pistol(barrel less than 16" overall less than 26")since it has never been designated as a long-gun. Making a pistol into a long gun is not a violation. Hope this helps. :

fanner,

I have spoken with TC and they very emphatically state that all frames leave the factory designated as either a pistol or a rifle. If you have a question about what a frame was originally, you can contact TC with the serial number and they will tell you what is what designated at the time of manufacture. There are no "virgin" or either/or frame sent out by TC. They are all one or the other from the start.

Fanner,

Please don't take offense at my post above. If I sound frustrated, it isn't with you. The fact that we even have to discuss this insane. We are all capable of seeing that a frame is a frame is a frame, regardless of what TC called it when it was shipped. The ATF, however, in their infinite wisdom choses to interpret this in an absurd manner. To add insult to injury, if you speak to ten different agents you will get ten different, usually conflicting, opinions. The only one that matters comes from their firearms law division in DC and they are quite clear about the rifle frame issue. You would think that after about a dozen or so inquiries that they would sent a memo out the field agents in the regional offices. That would make sense though!

Since I'm the person who wrote the letter to the BATF and received the reply that is posted on this site......I guess it's alright if I weigh in here.

First, let me say that Mr. Pancurak is absolutely WRONG in his assertion that it is legal to convert any and all TC frames into pistol configuration.......and it has ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with the decision in the TC Supreme Court Case. If you doubt that statement, go back and read the letter from the BATF Technology Branch that is posted on this website!

The law that prohibits the conversion of a RIFLE into a handgun is the National Firearms Act of 1934.....the TC court case DID NOT change that law! The TC victory simply established the legality of a "Carbine Kit" that was made to convert a Contender HANDGUN into a rifle (there were NO factory carbines when the case was first filed).

As Stush mentioned......TC is NOT going to pay your legal fees if you get busted with an illegal conversion......and TC is NOT going to pay your fines and do your prison time if you are convicted........

It is foolish to rely on an opinion from TC concerning the legallity of the conversion when the BATF has already stated that the conversion is illegal unless registered as a National Firearms Act regulated and controlled "short barreled rifle"........

Although I have asked on more than one occasion, I have yet to receive a letter from the legal department at TC stating that it is legal to convert a TC, that left the factory as a rifle, to a handgun. If anyone has such a letter, with references to actual US law that proves their position.....I'd sure like to see it!

TomC

To answer your question, according to federal law, you do not need a handgun permit to purchase the rifle frame.....of course, states can and do pass firearm laws that are stricter than federal law.......I suppose a state could require a handgun permit to buy a TC rifle..... however, buying a TC rifle with a handgun permit, nor, the fact that some dealer listed a rifle as a handgun on the yellow sheet, does NOT overrule the federal prohibition against converting a rifle to a pistol......or the consequences of violating that law......

This whole thing makes me mad and I wish we didn't even have to discuss it. So, are there Encore frames that are designated as muzzleloaders? If so, then why do I have to fill out paperwork to buy one? Its nice to know that even though I'm deployed 6000mi away to protect democracy we still have ignorant rules like this. It's nice to know that I've owned an illegal firearm for the last 8 yrs. How do we fix this problem?????

I don't believe TC would win if they tried this case...... the only way they could win was if the National Firearms Act was struck down and that isn't likely to happen any time soon......

For those who don't know, the TC court case that went to the Supreme Court centered around the legality of using a "carbine kit", which consisted of a carbine length barrel and a buttstock, to convert an existing Contender handgun into a rifle. The legality of this "kit" is the ONLY thing this case decided.........

Basically, the BATF said possession of the kit and the contender handgun was illegal because the stock *could* be installed with the handgun barrel in place, resulting in an unregistered, NFA regulated "short barreled rifle"......the Supreme Court ruled that possession was legal because...... even though components from the kit *could* be assembled in an illegal configuration, it could also be used to assemble a legal firearm........that is the ONLY reason TC won the case and the decision was NOT unanimous.

Wonder how many of you know you are subject to felony prosecution if you possess a contender or encore, a pistol length barrel and a buttstock.....unless, you also possess a barrel at least 16" in length????

Why? Because, without a rifle length barrel in your collection of parts, the buttstock can only be used to assemble an NFA regulated firearm......you can be charged with "intent" whether you ever assemble the firearm in an illegal configuration or not!

Don't believe me????? The same "intent" charges have been used to prosecute people for owning an AR15 and an unregistered drop in auto sear.......never mind the fact that the drop in sear will NOT make an AR15 fully automatic without other substantial modifications to the host rifle! It is perfectly legal to own an unregistered auto sear.....and it is perfectly legal to own an AR15 rifle.......but you better NOT own both and get caught!

I sometimes wonder how long it will be before someone is prosecuted for possessing a hacksaw and a shotgun at the same time.......after all, in about 3 minutes, that hacksaw could be used to make the shotgun illegal!


Nobody said laws had to make sense! Until we start taking back some of the rights we have lost, it won't get any better!

How can you tell the diffrence by looking at the serial numbers.

Difference in What? I'm just guessing but are you talking about the serial numbers on the TC frames? If so, you can not tell the difference between a frame that is registered as a pistol as opposed to a rifle. TC can tell you what the frame was registered AS when shipped from the factory by calling them.

The question I have had is, if you buy a frame, and when your FFL dealer gets the frame, he registers it as a handgun, does this cover the handgun/rifle frame problem with the BATF.

Mike

mark i couldn't have said it any better myself. i shake just thinking about how many illegal guns are out there because people don't know any better. keep spreading the word!!

I have seen some good ones......really makes me shake my head sometimes!!

I can't begin to tell you the number of illegally configured "assault weapons" I have seen for sale.....anybody that relies on a dealer to tell them what is and isn't legal is foolish!

Many people that know better simply refuse to believe it will ever cause them a problem.......

Years ago, when I was a subscriber to the TC list, one of the members wrote about playing with a new combination...... he thought his 14" 309 JDJ barrel made just the handiest little carbine!!! Yep, he had his contender assembled with a stock and a 14" barrel......when he was told that the combination was highly illegal, he acted like it was no big deal........

and that's the problem...they just think they can play innocent and blame the dealer if they get caught. the dealer may get in trouble too, but the guy who is in possession gets it worse. i'm sure that 14" 309 jdj would make a handy little carbine, but i will pass on the mandatory jail time, thank you very much!!