 Scope, recoil and breaks ???
#112144
07/04/2012 3:04 PM
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TCTex.
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I don’t fully understand the effects of a break’s concussion on a scope, but I still thought it had some effect? What am I missing? Eg, My 16.5 TC Custom Shop 270 Win was a 15 in barrel with break on it. It was harder on scopes and bases than my standard 15in 308 Win or 338 Fed. Then JWP posted this AWESOME example of concussion/recoil effects on a scope. In short I know there is some inertia transferred, I just don’t know how. (I think JWP's example is an extreme, but is that basically what my scope still does on a smaller scale?) I know that my 270 Win’s recoil wasn’t sever, however the concussion was intense like a sound concussion. My 270 Win has also snapped 2 of the 4 heads of the mount screws in one session... it was wearing a 2-7 Burris with 4 Burris Z rings... So I guess I am asking if the scope endures the full effects of the cartridge regardless of break? Thanks Duane Sorry for the rambling and long post...
Democracy is two wolves and a lamb deciding what to have for dinner. Liberty is a well armed lamb Benjamin Franklin 
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Re: Scope, recoil and breaks ???
[Re: TCTex.]
#112149
07/04/2012 3:22 PM
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Ernie
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Yes, the scope, stock, etc. endures all of it
Ernie the Un-Tactical 
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Re: Scope, recoil and breaks ???
[Re: Ernie]
#112154
07/04/2012 4:32 PM
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430man
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The break has no effect unless the scope is in line with it and then it just gets very dirty and the glass can get full of smoke.
RECOIL ruins scopes.
Nothing is worse then a big bore pistol or revolver.
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Re: Scope, recoil and breaks ???
[Re: 430man]
#112162
07/04/2012 7:27 PM
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The break has no effect...
RECOIL ruins scopes.
Nothing is worse then a big bore pistol or revolver. ...But did you know a .50 BMG has the recoil of a .243 with the muzzle break. I have shot many and a revolver has more force on a scope. If the break has no effect on a scope, than a 50 BMG’s scope is going to take the full punishment of the rounds recoil regardless if it has a muzzle break and recoils like a 243 Win. Then what am I not understanding? IMHO, a 50BMG is going to recoil significantly more than any production handgun that I know of. Or do they recoil differently because of size and weight distribution?
Democracy is two wolves and a lamb deciding what to have for dinner. Liberty is a well armed lamb Benjamin Franklin
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Re: Scope, recoil and breaks ???
[Re: TCTex.]
#112163
07/04/2012 7:35 PM
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s4s4u
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Direction of recoil has as much to do with it as the amount of recoil. A rifle recoiling straight rearwards will have a different effect than a 500 Maxi wheelgun that wants to touch your forehead with each press of the trigger. A brake will reduce the recoil forces on a scope just as it will to your shoulder or hands, how much depends greatly on the application.
Rod, too.
Short cuts often lead to long recoveries.
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Re: Scope, recoil and breaks ???
[Re: s4s4u]
#112165
07/04/2012 7:38 PM
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Direction of recoil has as much to do with it as the amount of recoil. A rifle recoiling straight rearwards will have a different effect than a 500 Maxi wheelgun that wants to touch your forehead with each press of the trigger. A brake will reduce the recoil forces on a scope just as it will to your shoulder or hands, how much depends greatly on the application. Tracking! I was assuming that was the difference, but the last time I assumed, well, ya... I have read threads and topics that have hinted at this subject but never covered it. Thanks for indulging my question!!
Democracy is two wolves and a lamb deciding what to have for dinner. Liberty is a well armed lamb Benjamin Franklin
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Re: Scope, recoil and breaks ???
[Re: TCTex.]
#112185
07/04/2012 10:07 PM
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Ernie
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Handgun recoil tries to take the ocular/eyepiece/back of the scope and rip it upward.
Ernie the Un-Tactical
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Re: Scope, recoil and breaks ???
[Re: TCTex.]
#112188
07/04/2012 11:18 PM
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jwp475
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Muzzle breaks most certainly have effects on scope. A rifle or handgun cambered in a rifle caliber like an Thompson Center or XP, etc. fitted with a muzzle break both positive and negative G's are exerted on the scope. Some scope are not built to with stand negative G's and will not stand up on a heavy recoil-er with an efficient brake
As can be seen in the video is the many dynamics that take place with a weapon is fired. The rifle in the video is a Barret 50 BMG with a 5X25X56 S&B 34mm tube scope mounted on a picatinny rail and as you can plainly see the recoil isn't much because of the muzzle brake and the weight of the rifle, but the stresses on the scope are intense
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Re: Scope, recoil and breaks ???
[Re: jwp475]
#112194
07/05/2012 12:29 AM
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wapitirod
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the 50BMG is a different animal though as the barrel is actually in motion to relieve part of the recoil so your dealing with the shock of a rather heavy rearward moving barrel coming to a sudden stop. If you think about how a brake works all it is doing is redirecting and relieving pressure before the bullet exits the barrel so in most cases a brake is going to make your scope live longer rather than shorter. All different types of firearms have different types of recoil which is why you have specific scopes for shotguns/muzzleloaders, rimfires, airguns, rifles and handguns. The different type of recoil effects scopes differently and what works with one type of weapon won't work for others. Handguns are by and large harder on scopes than rifles but a brake on a revolver or specialty pistol will not only make it easier on your hand but also easier on your scope. As to why your 270 broke the screws I'd look at other possibilities. I use Weaver aluminum 4 screw mounts on my 300 and 458 Win mags and now my 458 Lott and so far I haven't broke a screw or a scope. Now on my 475 which doesn't have a brake I've sheared off the scope mount twice before I finally went up to #8 screws and now it holds fine. The violent flipping of the 475 with the lightweight 2X leupold was more destructive than the straight rearward movement of a cartridge with double the muzzle energy out of a single shot with a brake.
I won't be wronged. I won't be insulted. I won't be laid a-hand on. I don't do these things to other people, and I require the same from them. John Wayne-The Shootist
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Re: Scope, recoil and breaks ???
[Re: wapitirod]
#112221
07/05/2012 9:53 AM
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mike.44
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This has really been informative. Thanks alot guys.
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Re: Scope, recoil and breaks ???
[Re: wapitirod]
#112229
07/05/2012 1:03 PM
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I use Weaver aluminum 4 screw mounts on my 300 and 458 Win mags and now my 458 Lott and so far I haven't broke a screw or a scope. That "was" the base on my 270 Win. I put a steel one on there... It flexed enough to rip the top off the screws. I was lucky to get them out. I wonder if I had a bad batch of soft screws? Duane Mike, you are 100% right!!
Democracy is two wolves and a lamb deciding what to have for dinner. Liberty is a well armed lamb Benjamin Franklin
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Re: Scope, recoil and breaks ???
[Re: jwp475]
#112230
07/05/2012 1:07 PM
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Muzzle breaks most certainly have effects on scope. A rifle or handgun cambered in a rifle caliber like an Thompson Center or XP, etc. fitted with a muzzle break both positive and negative G's are exerted on the scope. Some scope are not built to with stand negative G's and will not stand up on a heavy recoil-er with an efficient brake
That explains a lot!!!!!!!!! Now I understand the concussion I feel on a barrel w/ break and what the scope is going through… So breaks “DO” have an effect on scopes!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Democracy is two wolves and a lamb deciding what to have for dinner. Liberty is a well armed lamb Benjamin Franklin
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Re: Scope, recoil and breaks ???
[Re: TCTex.]
#112233
07/05/2012 1:25 PM
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Ernie
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Yes, the recoil impulse is changed So breaks “DO” have an effect on scopes!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Ernie the Un-Tactical
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Re: Scope, recoil and breaks ???
[Re: wapitirod]
#112241
07/05/2012 3:00 PM
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430man
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the 50BMG is a different animal though as the barrel is actually in motion to relieve part of the recoil so your dealing with the shock of a rather heavy rearward moving barrel coming to a sudden stop. If you think about how a brake works all it is doing is redirecting and relieving pressure before the bullet exits the barrel so in most cases a brake is going to make your scope live longer rather than shorter. All different types of firearms have different types of recoil which is why you have specific scopes for shotguns/muzzleloaders, rimfires, airguns, rifles and handguns. The different type of recoil effects scopes differently and what works with one type of weapon won't work for others. Handguns are by and large harder on scopes than rifles but a brake on a revolver or specialty pistol will not only make it easier on your hand but also easier on your scope. As to why your 270 broke the screws I'd look at other possibilities. I use Weaver aluminum 4 screw mounts on my 300 and 458 Win mags and now my 458 Lott and so far I haven't broke a screw or a scope. Now on my 475 which doesn't have a brake I've sheared off the scope mount twice before I finally went up to #8 screws and now it holds fine. The violent flipping of the 475 with the lightweight 2X leupold was more destructive than the straight rearward movement of a cartridge with double the muzzle energy out of a single shot with a brake. Best answer, 100% true. A brake does not make negative "G's", it eases recoil. I have shot many BMG's and they have less recoil impulse to a scope then a big revolver. Only an airgun will reverse recoil impulse.
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Re: Scope, recoil and breaks ???
[Re: 430man]
#112244
07/05/2012 3:45 PM
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Ernie
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To the scope I believe you are wrong at least partially. The brake does not work until after the bullet has exited the barrel.
Scope, action, stock, and barrel, etc. takes all of that recoil, the biggest part of the impulse before the brake ever starts to work.
The brake does change part of the recoil impulse.
Leupold has the most sophisticated recoil testing facility of any scope manufacturer in the US.
They keep records of different recoil impulses from testing specific guns all hooked up, and then they can program the machine to duplicate it.
Specialty pistols from what I can gather have a different recoil impulse compared to rifles.
But as far as I can remember the recoil that happens before the bullet ever exits the barrel is the most damaging part of the impulse
Ernie the Un-Tactical
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Re: Scope, recoil and breaks ???
[Re: Ernie]
#112256
07/05/2012 8:48 PM
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cfish2
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I have a TC 2.5x7x28 scope that sat on my 45-70 contender for 8 years. I put 1000+ rounds of heavy recoiling rounds thru it. One of the reasons it held up is because of the 4 scope rings on it and they were torqued down correctly and evenly. I have a buddy with a Barret M99 and it wears a night force scope. It has well over 2000 rounds thru it and the scope is still going strong. If you want to know what is ebven more devestating to a scope then a big bore handgun??
Its a spring air rifle. A spring air rifle exerts forces on a scope in a direction that the scope was not built to with stand. Believe it or not. I have never seen a scope come apart due to a muzzel brake.
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Re: Scope, recoil and breaks ???
[Re: Ernie]
#112258
07/05/2012 8:51 PM
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This is what I can say. I have had 15in 270 Win barrels with and without breaks. The one without a break never gave my mount or scope any problems. My one with a break eat two Burris scopes and demolished a mount. Ironically, it was the same style mount and rings as I had used on the first 270 Win Barrel. My Burris that had an AO on it that was sent back stayed at the factory an extra 3 weeks longer than the other 2-7 Burris. The list of repairs on the AO scope is significant.
Democracy is two wolves and a lamb deciding what to have for dinner. Liberty is a well armed lamb Benjamin Franklin
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Re: Scope, recoil and breaks ???
[Re: Ernie]
#112259
07/05/2012 8:54 PM
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Randominator
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Very interesting.
That would explain why more rings help on a handgun and are not needed on much larger rifles.
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Re: Scope, recoil and breaks ???
[Re: TCTex.]
#112261
07/05/2012 8:59 PM
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wapitirod
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I think there is something else going on there because the brake shouldn't really cause a problem, yes barrel harmonics may change but not to an extent where it should damage a scope or base. I have seen base screws that have been used one or more times break. If a screw is tightened enough it will stretch and everytime after that when it's tightened it will stretch and weaken that much more. You see it in automotive alot with torque to yield bolts. The stretch is accounted for during the tightening and if you reuse the bolts you may end up with a problem. Alot of things can come into play in a scenario like your talking about. The base fit to the barrel can be a major issue, the screws themselves, overtorquing, the number, width and placement of rings can be a big one too as they add ridgidity to bases like the weavers that may flex otherwise. I run two of the vertical split leupold rifleman rings behind on the turrets and on or two ahead of the turrest depending on spacing.
I won't be wronged. I won't be insulted. I won't be laid a-hand on. I don't do these things to other people, and I require the same from them. John Wayne-The Shootist
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Re: Scope, recoil and breaks ???
[Re: wapitirod]
#112266
07/05/2012 10:13 PM
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That is what started this thread... LOL I still don't know caused it.
It was a brand new base and screws that broke. I could have gotten a bad batch of screw. I have had that happen with a Leupold Encore base before... Just a thought.
I wonder if it was TC's style of MT'er? It is directional unlike your MT'er Rod... again, just a thought and I am thinking out loud...
Democracy is two wolves and a lamb deciding what to have for dinner. Liberty is a well armed lamb Benjamin Franklin
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Re: Scope, recoil and breaks ???
[Re: TCTex.]
#112280
07/06/2012 12:03 AM
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s4s4u
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Dang, Duane. I find it hard to fathom that a muzzle brake would cause more damage than aux-natural. Both a braked and an un-braked gun begin with the same energy, and then as the bullet passes through the brake the redirected gasses begin to counteract that energy and slow the rearward and/or upward movement. It doesn't stop the the motion altogether though. Perhaps the internals of the optic need a longer "cooling off" period after the initial recoil impulse to settle down, and reverberate more with the shorter duration resulting from the brake. Still doesn't explain the broken screws though 
Rod, too.
Short cuts often lead to long recoveries.
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Re: Scope, recoil and breaks ???
[Re: s4s4u]
#112287
07/06/2012 12:32 AM
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S4S4U, I have never understood the full impact of MT's on optics. My 270 Win barrels were the reason I was curious. After seeing that pictures of the 50 BMG all I could say to myself was no wonder they broke. I still have the screw heads saved as a reminder... I know there has even been a big debate over aluminum vs. steel bases and how many rings to put on your scope. (Very good observation Randominator.) After my endeavors with my 270 Win I put steel bases and four rings on my barrels in larger calibers. Maybe Rod is right and I just had my screws tightened too tight. All I know is that the aluminum base flexed to the point that it broke the two front screws. Ps, the set up I had problems with is actually the TC in my signature line. This one...  The main difference I noticed about the rig was the amount of concussion that consumed you when you pulled the trigger. It kicked like a 243, but I could feel it in my chest when I pulled the trigger. Even my friend Toby noticed it when he shot. This one would give you a head ache if you shot it 3 or 4 times.
Last edited by TCTex.; 07/30/2012 4:00 PM. Reason: I added a picture of my 270...
Democracy is two wolves and a lamb deciding what to have for dinner. Liberty is a well armed lamb Benjamin Franklin
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Re: Scope, recoil and breaks ???
[Re: TCTex.]
#112291
07/06/2012 12:46 AM
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wapitirod
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that's the feeling of power stimulating the growth of chest hair 
Last edited by wapitirod; 07/06/2012 12:47 AM.
I won't be wronged. I won't be insulted. I won't be laid a-hand on. I don't do these things to other people, and I require the same from them. John Wayne-The Shootist
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Re: Scope, recoil and breaks ???
[Re: TCTex.]
#112296
07/06/2012 1:02 AM
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Ernie
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Back in the day when I had an Encore, I decided I wanted a 338 WM barrel (Bullberry with their brake).
Steel Leupold 1-piece base.
At that time I believed at the time, that the Encore could run with the same pressures as a bolt action. WRONG!
Have you ever seen a Leupold base pull up on both ends? Oh, how pretty a reverse rainbow 
Ended up getting a TSOB base (lighter weight strong aluminum was better than steel) Mr. Bullberry basically told me it was impossible, until he saw it. Skinned my 4x Leupold on both ends as the rings crept in.
The more weight you have on top the more the shearing problems that will come.
Ernie the Un-Tactical
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Re: Scope, recoil and breaks ???
[Re: Ernie]
#112301
07/06/2012 1:16 AM
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jwp475
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+1 Ernie, more weigth means more inertia
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Re: Scope, recoil and breaks ???
[Re: jwp475]
#112317
07/06/2012 2:15 AM
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Ok, I had a huge old 2-7 AO Burris on there... It now resides on a 15in Encore barrel in 30 Herrett.
We are now making sense!
Ps, thanks to all that posted had helped. I learned a LOOOOOT from this thread!!!!!!
Democracy is two wolves and a lamb deciding what to have for dinner. Liberty is a well armed lamb Benjamin Franklin
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Re: Scope, recoil and breaks ???
[Re: TCTex.]
#112334
07/06/2012 3:04 AM
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jwp475
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All steel expands when enough pressure is exerted internally and the contracts to its original size as pressure subsides. If the pressure is great enough then the steel stretches past it's yield and thus will not contract back to its original size. This is what happened to Ernie
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Re: Scope, recoil and breaks ???
[Re: jwp475]
#112400
07/06/2012 4:19 PM
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I started looking up “G” forces on scopes with 50 BMG’s and found out a lot of information. WOW this has been a learning experience for me… Ps, I looked up the 50 BMG just because it was the most extreme and I felt like more variables would be explained. http://longrangesupply.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=14782 Developed for the military's extreme long range shooting and hard target acquisition, the 5.5-22x50 and 5.5-22x56 NXS provide broad and magnification and range, combined with a large field-of-view, four inches of eye relief and 95+ M.O.A. elevation travel. This range of magnification and internal adjustment allow most .50 BMGs to achieve the 2,000-yard mark with accuracy. These NXS models are numbered among the most advanced field tactical scopes ever produced. Nightforce established new standards for performance with the debut of this model., and they remain the benchmark by which all other scopes are measured. This scope is the number one seller for use on the .50 BMG rifle for long range performance due to the elevation travel, wide angle of view at 5.5x and the 22x power giving you the ability to precisely align the reticle at 1000 yards and beyond. The NXS scopes are tested to for water resistance in up to 66 feet of water; able to withstand -80 degrees F. and heat up to 250 degrees F. for up to one hour. They are recoil and impact tested at 1200 G's for both positive and negative forces.
Democracy is two wolves and a lamb deciding what to have for dinner. Liberty is a well armed lamb Benjamin Franklin
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Re: Scope, recoil and breaks ???
[Re: TCTex.]
#112402
07/06/2012 4:43 PM
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jwp475
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They are recoil and impact tested at 1200 G's for both positive and negative forces.
This is extremely important for a scope used on a rifle equipped with a brake
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Re: Scope, recoil and breaks ???
[Re: jwp475]
#112420
07/06/2012 7:26 PM
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cfish2
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That is the scope that my buddy has on his barrett M99 50cal. Like I said 2000 rounds+ thru it and the scope is doing just fine. I actually shot that gun 3 weeks ago. Put 45 rounds thru it myself and it kicks slightly more then my 30-30.
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Re: Scope, recoil and breaks ???
[Re: cfish2]
#112421
07/06/2012 7:41 PM
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It may kick like a 30-30 Win, but it is still hard on the scope… LOL
This has been eye opening for me. I never knew how much I didn’t know.
Democracy is two wolves and a lamb deciding what to have for dinner. Liberty is a well armed lamb Benjamin Franklin
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Re: Scope, recoil and breaks ???
[Re: TCTex.]
#112422
07/06/2012 9:28 PM
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cfish2
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No doubt, but after 2000k rounds thru it and the scope still hanging in there. It is a testament to the scopes abilities.
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Re: Scope, recoil and breaks ???
[Re: Ernie]
#112443
07/07/2012 1:09 AM
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430man
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Back in the day when I had an Encore, I decided I wanted a 338 WM barrel (Bullberry with their brake).
Steel Leupold 1-piece base.
At that time I believed at the time, that the Encore could run with the same pressures as a bolt action. WRONG!
Have you ever seen a Leupold base pull up on both ends? Oh, how pretty a reverse rainbow
Ended up getting a TSOB base (lighter weight strong aluminum was better than steel) Mr. Bullberry basically told me it was impossible, until he saw it. Skinned my 4x Leupold on both ends as the rings crept in.
The more weight you have on top the more the shearing problems that will come.
Oh how right you are.
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Re: Scope, recoil and breaks ???
[Re: 430man]
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07/07/2012 8:47 PM
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Re: Scope, recoil and breaks ???
[Re: ahandgunhunter]
#112531
07/08/2012 2:01 AM
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Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 7,331
TCTex.
OP
Shootist
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OP
Shootist
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 7,331 |
Your 100% ahandgunhunter!!
Except for the troll it has been awesome!! I never new what "a" scope was going threw when you pulled the trigger...
Democracy is two wolves and a lamb deciding what to have for dinner. Liberty is a well armed lamb Benjamin Franklin
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