I have a point to make that affects all hunters, handgun and otherwise but first I'm going to post a couple pics and I want you to tell me what they look like to you. Be as specific as you can.

Two young deer; looks like maybe one if u don't look close. One looking more or less ahead; one at camera. Shadow on front top part of deer. Standing in tall brown grass; background is heavy green foilage. Even if just one deer was there, it's not a great background for a shot.

A hawk; not sure of species, ie. "Bird of Prey." It is looking to it's right, sitting on looks like an Aspen branch. Blurry pic; branches in the way... Not a good shot, even if legal.

What's up, Rod?

Okay, I'll play Rod, if I were out in the woods, just being out there, hunting or not.

Two young deer, I could probably watch them play and frolic for hours. The hawk, I could also watch, it soaring riding a thermal, looking for it's next meal, or to find a perfect vantage point to scan the ground for movement. I could do this and never have the urge or desire to shoot any of them. That is what I see, nature happening right in front of me.

A two for one and a quail gitter!

As the moring sun crests the tree tops, you are graced with two young deer prancing and pacing without a care in the world, A short time later you notice a hawk, awakened and his senses keen, looking for his morning meal...

A early fall morning, for my self a simple pleasure,

I see two very alert fawns that are just losing there spots. The one closest is eyeballing something, a hawk maybe. I also see a hawk or falcon that is alerted to something as well and is looking over its shoulder to see what alerted it. The fawn in the foreground looks like its looking up.

I see: two whitetail fawns; and what appears to be, a young golden eagle.

I'm pretty much agreeing with Gregg. Two older fawns, almost out of their spots. That and the green foliage tells me it's late summer. The shadow says the sun is well up. What's not so obvious is the gray mass back in the brush that could be a person. Look just above the deer's back and just to the left of the ears. There is also two small "flesh" colored spots just above the gray mass. If your not seeing this, hold the control key and use your scroll wheel to zoom in.
Second photo. Bird of prey. Don't know what kind. there appears to be a lake in the background so if this is a shooting situation, is there someone on the lake in a canoe that you don't see. Or if using a single projectile, if your bullet ricochets off the lake surface it goes sailing off to.............

Jeff

Kral got what I was looking for on the deer, they are whitetails about 100 miles from the closest known population. All we have where I'm at are blacktails so these two stuck out like a sore thumb. Their momma got out of sight to fast to get a pic. The bird is a raptor, either some type of hawk or possibly a juvenile eagle. To give you a little background on the bird it was about 75' up the tree, the branch is 2-3" in diameter and I figured him at 18-24" tall.

Now that I've told you all this I'll get to the point. I went into fish and wildlife and talked to the senior field biologist for this area to find out if they knew about the whitetails. First he couldn't decide what kind of deer they were but any of you who have seen a blacktail would know there is an obviou difference. While I was there I decided to see if he knew what kind of bird that was, his answer was "blue grouse". No I'm not kidding. Where I'm going with this is I've seen personally in my own state where game mismanagement is destroying our herds. I have never seen such a lack of common sense except in politics. One other quick example I can give you, we have property in Eastern OR that borders a creek and a river. ODFW decided they wanted to restore the salmon and steelhead runs so they wanted to reduce the water temperature. Without going into all the details they've managed to raise the water temp 5 degrees and someone thought it would be a good idea to stock the river with smallmouth bass. I may not be a biologist but something about trying to re-establish salmonoids and then stocking fish that will get really fat on their young doesn't add up.

My point to all this is how are hunters like ourselves supposed to combat the stupidity of those who've been put in charge of managing the animals and fish we hunt? Every primer, bullet, tag, etc we buy pays for the insanity. I guess this post is as much about venting as it is about exposing incompetence but as hunters if this is a growing trend we, and the animals are in big trouble.

How would we know from that photo that "they are whitetails about 100 miles from the closest known population...?

I was going to say whitetails but one looks like it has a black tail. LOL

As for the "bird size," that could be very subjective, according to one's personal judgement. 75' up in the tree??? C'mon, Rod!

Give us some better photos next time or more info if ya want us to "play your game!"

At any rate, going by your way of playing this game, your general bashing of wildlife officials (quote you: "the stupidity of those who've been put in charge of managing the animals and fish we hunt?") is quite uncalled for, IMO.

Yes they do make some mistakes; don't we all? Additionally, a lot of their decisions are also based on public input; and generally in a lot of states, we as hunters don't give much public input. I found this out by attending many Colorado Wildlife Commission meetings several years in a row when dealing with changing the handgun hunting laws in Colorado.

Again, as in most cases, criticizing does little to no good; but rather personal action does help.

MHO

They saw the same pictures and he is supposed to be an expert in local wildlife. You weren't supposed to know they were 100 miles away from their normal habitat but he was. The tail of a blacktail is closer to that of a mulie and blacktails don't have the big oversized bushy white tail. The bird is the same thing. I didn't expect you to know the specifics but the biologist did and yet he still said it was a blue grouse. I've never even seen a blue grouse that far off the ground. The point is that without the information I gave the odfw biologist all of you figured out it was a bird of prey even though the pic was taken from about 50yds in the fog. And Kral caught right on to the fact that it was a whitetail. The problem is that this is just the most recent issue I've seen and when I see a pattern I call it like I see it, and if they can't even identify an animal then how the hell can they manage them.

I agree with Rod. Those guys are SUPPOSED to be experts with wildlife. But in my experience as a falconer over the last 20 years, that is NOT the case.

The hawk is, in fact, a red tailed hawk. The tail isn't red yet though because it is only a first year bird. They don't get their red tail till they go through the first molt at a year old. Same with their eyes. They are yellow the first year, then go dark. This photo is hard to tell on the eyes though. She may actually have yellow eyes, but with her looking to the side, it is hard to tell. You can see the yellow easily when they look right at you, but when looking away, they will look dark. It is only the iris of the eye that is yellow, so a side shot makes it hard to tell. This looks like a female, but without actually having it in hand, it would be hard to tell for sure. Females are a third larger than males, and are much stronger. Their feet are big and thick compared to the smaller, thinner feet of a male. I've set traps for red tails that I thought were females, but were actually very small males. At a distance, when their feathers are "fluffed out" like this picture, they ALL look big. But the beak on this one looks like the beak of a female-- thicker and a bit longer. Head size is big, everything looks "female" to me.

As far as I'm concerned, wildlife officials are worthless. Here's why...

In my fifth year of falconry, I got out of my truck with my female red tail and started to walk a field for rabbits. About half an hour later, I was called over to the road by a game warden. I got over there, and he absolutely flipped out. He said that I was not allowed to have the hawk, and that I must have been stupid to be walking in public with her. I told him I had a falconry license, and he had NEVER HEARD OF FALCONRY!!! That is when I flipped out! I gave him my license, and told him,"Here, call this license in and find out what the rest of your job involves!!" He refused to call it in, I refused to take the ticket. He called for backup, and over the radio, his "backup" asked why he was needing help. He explained the situation, and the backup told him all about falconry. His eyes got real big, he wouldn't look me in the eye, and tried to turn the volume down on his speaker. He ended the conversation with the backup, then began appologizing profusely to me. I ripped him up and down for not knowing his job, for ruining my hunt, and calling me an idiot. I made DAMN SURE he knew who the idiot was.

He's not the only worthless wildlife officer I have encountered either. But he was the worst. At least half a dozen others didn't know how to do a falconry inspection, and were sent out by themselves to do my inspection. I could have lied my way through any of those inspections. But instead, I GAVE THEM TRAINING on what the regulations ask for in the inspections. They had NO IDEA what they were looking for, till I showed them.

And don't give me the BS about how falconry isn't very common and they don't deal with it very oftern. EVERY STATE has legalized falconry, and thus they have a FALCONRY COORDINATER that is in charge of the licensing. I believe it is up to them to get their field guys trained. Just like anyone else- if you don't have the proper training in your field, you're of little use.

Raptortrapper, I'm definently not an expert on birds of prey, but what brought me to my educated guess was: 1. The eyes (dark brown instead of yellow). Just as you pointed out, red tails have the pronounce yellow eyes. 2. The bluish/gray color of the upper portion of the beak and black tip. I'm not suggesting there's not other raptors with those feature, it was just the first conclusion I came up with.

What's your thought on those observations?

I think the problem lies in the "biologist" part. They go to school and get their degree and then take a job wherever they can get it. Not necessarily the country that they were familiar with and then they are in a different world, but the degree makes them qualified to be there. Something is wrong there.

KRal, you're right. The young USUALLY have yellow eyes till they are three years old or so, then they turn black as night. The cere, or fleshy part right above the beak, is the blue/green color, which also is a sure bet of a young hawk. The cere will turn yellow at two or three years old. The cere is a pretty good way of telling if it is a young hawk or not. Most hawks, eagles, owls, and falcons all go through this change of color in the cere. It starts out blue or grey, and ends up yellow. The fact that Rod got so close to it to take the picture is another sign of a young one. Young and dumb, no fear of humans yet.

The tail of a young golden eagle is different. The upper three quarters of the tail is actually white, and then the tips of the tail feathers are black. The back of a Golden is very dark as well. And the beak is HUGE! The corner of the mouth on an eagle will go back way under the eyes, almost to the outside edge of the eyes, which makes a wide gape of the mouth. On redtails, the mouth stops at the inside corners of the eye. Sorry, this feature is kind of hard to explain without being able to show you what I mean.

Being a Wildlife Biology major and having worked for a Wildlife manager for the KDWPT. I kind of have to laugh, I can't believe you guys are seeing these issues with your state wildlife officials. Here in Kansas I know that they have a high standard to become a CO or a manager. As for the degree I also know that the school I am attending is well known for an excellence in the field of biology. I'm not saying that our Biologist don't get stumped once in a while but I have seen them show and use resources to find an answer to peoples questions.

I think this is more in line with what is the case in most states. Maybe that particular "senior" just depends on his field workers (game wardens, wildlife officers, whatever you call them) to give him the real straight input, and makes his decisions from that... I find it difficult to believe that this is the norm rather than the exception.

Well, I just looked at this post for some reason and the first think I was going to say was, “nothing legal…” LOL

The deer have spots and for me that is nuff said.

The bird is a raptor of some type. Or at least it is to me. I actually had the privilege of seeing a few adolescent Bald Eagles on the Coast Guard base. They are fun to watch.

As for the Bio specialists, um… ya. I have talked to some that were awesome and other that were off their rocker.

I do remember one account of my Dad and Uncle shooting red wolfs on my Grandparents place because they were killing the Spanish Goats, every night… Well, the Bio’est had to make the statement that there were not any red wolfs in the area. Even though they were let loose on Fort Hood which was on the other side of the Belton Lake. So my Dad threw 5 pairs of ears on the counter and said something like, well I guess you can’t charge us for shooting these then. The look of the Bio was priceless.

In your case on the red wolf it reminds me of here with the mountian lion, the state does not recognize them as being in the state as a resident species but admits that individuals usually young males will roam through the state in search of their own territory, but since females typically do not come through the state this causes the young males to move on through, not quite the same as your red wolf but for the longest time the state was putting out statments to mountian lion sightings saying they are not in the state until one was shot and illegally kept by the rancher but after the specimen was studied the isotope reading showed it was from Oklahoma but was probably pushed out of its territory for some reason. With your red wolves they weren't known to be in your area and I can see how a biologist could make a mistake even with a population as close as what you mentioned, also had some greys move through the state two years ago and people thought a buddy of mine was crazy until the state actually got ahold of some pictures and followed the pair as they left the state, two young males in that case looking for their own territories most likely. My buddy was happy when I showed him the states release of the info on the wolves lol He is crazy but he wasn't insane when he saw them lol

I think a lot of the problem also with game management or mismanagement has to do with public input. Believe it or not there are more non-hunters giving their input to DNR Offices than hunters in most cases. And the DNR must answer to the public for the most part. We as hunters tend to be mostly complacent and tend to go along with the ride; just happy to be hunting. Not ALL of, but a LOT of us. And guess what: The anti's are certainly NOT complacent. Just the opposite: They Are Very Loud.

Visit your next public DNR meeting and give them your input. I know it takes work; I have done it. Case in point; the bowhunters here in Colorado are a very powerful organization:

Colorado Bowhunters Association

They go to every DNR meeting; in numbers usually, and they get their way on a lot of issues. Such as: very liberal seasons, including during the elk rut; either-sex tags; they DON'T have to wear blaze orange during the muzzleloading season where the ML hunter's DO, even though they are hunting identical lands; a large part of the state has over-the-counter archery tags; and etc. etc...

And NO, I am NOT bashing bowhunters; I AM one with a Pope and Young bull elk in the book and a few other elk kills with my bow.

What I am saying is that simply CRITICIZING your wildlife officials is too easy and absolutely ineffective. If you don't like what you see then if you have the guts grab the bull by the horns and go fight it. Making them sound stupid and ignorant only reflects on yourself. JMHO

PS: Look at what the anti's have done with the wolf situation, (have they not seriously damaged the game populations in many areas???) as well as banning cougar and bear hunting in a lot of areas (California??? do you have a bear and cougar problem??/

In a lot of cases (not all) they are the non-hunters going to the DNR meetings in force and getting their way...

In the case of the red wolfs the Game Warden was in a sticky situation. If he stated they were coyotes it was just too bad so sad. If he admitted they were red wolfs that had been released by the state, then the state would be financially responsible for the 50 Spanish Goats that had been killed by the said red wolfs. Today, the red wolfs have crossed bread with the coyotes to make a really nasty critter. It is nothing to shoot a coyote and it have bountiful red hue to the coat.

I am not putting down biologists or Game Wardens, I just stating my side of the story. Let’s be honest, I had an interview with the Texas Game Wardens this June. Just the whole broken leg thing kind of threw a few monkey wrenches in the whole master plain… LOL What I can tell you after spending 300 volunteer hours with a federal Game Warden on a Navy Base is that there is politics to the job.

What it taught me is exactly what you are saying Gregg, sometimes you just have to do your homework.

Yes, it does take work; just like most things worth having.

The wolf mess is another example in this state of major screw up. Unless they've changed the requirements again you cannot use deadly force on a wolf unless it has physically contacted you and even if you observe it killing your cow or horse you cannot use lethal force. Their answer is the taxpayers will buy you a new animal. They were going to kill a pair off a while back, the alpha male and one of his sons because they were confirmed livestock killers. Instead of just doing it they went public with it and the tree huggers filed an injunctions. The alpha has now dissapeared and the collar is no longer working. They also had to go through a few years ago and can a couple dozen odfw employees because they were "fixing" the draw so they would hit their hunts every year. It's like any bureaucratic agency, it's riddled with fraud, abuse and a lack of common sense.

So what can the residents of your state do to help fix it instead of complain?

Deleted -- double post.

Gregg-- You said, "What I am saying is that simply CRITICIZING your wildlife officials is too easy and absolutely ineffective. If you don't like what you see then if you have the guts grab the bull by the horns and go fight it. Making them sound stupid and ignorant only reflects on yourself."

I disagree. If the idiots don't know their own job, it is not MY JOB to teach them.

Quote raptortrapper: "If the idiots don't know their own job, it is not MY JOB to teach them."

I think you misunderstand. The people who form the wildlfe commission and make the wildlife laws are ultimately appointed by the governor or voted in by the people in some way. And this includes the "bosses" that train the employees and/or write the qualifications that the employees must pass to be hired.

Like most "political officers," it starts out in the voting booth, and also by doing your part in attending appropriate meetings, writing letters, making phone calls, etc...

Obviously, I don't expect YOU to teach them their job. It is highly unlikely that you are even qualified to do so.

But you can have a say so in how they are hired. Yes, it takes work. I am thankful that in this country, we can and DO have a say.

I think if I had a problem like the one that raptortrapper had, I would get ahold of the agency and let them know what happened, trust me when this happens it gets people moving, or at least here it does, in the case of the warden not knowing the law with falconry, this would make sure that EVERYONE would know. You don't have to "teach them their job" but you can make the agency aware of what it needs to work with. And as TCTex said it is VERY political. Where I worked we had groups of eastern red cedars, they are worthless really for the area since quail are the main species managed for and the cedars just make a great habitat for the predators of quail. We can't get rid of them because they have been there for so long and anytime we happen to get one to accidently catch fire during a prescribed burn people who do not know what a problem they are will call the state office and complain. If the feeders at the fishing lake get empty the calls come in complaining about how can the state expect anyone to catch fish if the feeders arent putting food out.

my point to this entire post is that this biologist who is the senior "Field Biologist", either didn't want to be bothered with me or really didn't know what these animals were. Here is why the whitetail thing is a big deal. To those of you just about everywhere else the whitetail is all you deal with or you see them along with mulies. Here in OR there are only two very small areas where hunting the columbian whitetails is legal and only on a very limited basis with archery equipment. The closest area to us known to have any whitetails is about a 100miles and is supposed to be a small herd. The problem becomes the fact that the columbian whitetail is listed as endangered and probably less than half the people hunting this area have ever even seen a whitetail in the wild. If odfw denies their existence in this area and does not notify the public what happens when a local hunter shoots a buck because to the best of his knowledge the only deer here are blacktails. I believe the problem is that these agencies have become to bureaucratic and because the employees are members of public employee unions it takes an act of god to remove the bad ones and their is too much political bs going on behind the scenes which dictates decision making rather than what is best for the herds.

gregg--not sure where ya got off on this but rod has a pretty big valid complaint. i've dealt with more than my fair share of inept wildlife biologists. the same biologists that give input on numbers and a given wildlife range and the like to the state. if they don't even know what animals are what, how can that be done accurately. i do agree that people need to get off their butt and get more active but oddly enough it seems rod did what you're recommending in this case and did contact the given state official. that said, i'm not sure what else ya want rod to do, is there a meeting for public input on inept employees? i haven't yet seen one of those meetings yet.

Point taken Gregg about my misunderstanding. As far as being qualified, my degree is in wildlife biology with minors in chemistry and genetics. I have done the work of wildlife biologists, and worked along side them. But no, I don't consider myself qualified for their job, nor to do their training. With Falconry, that is an entirely different story, and am certainly qualified.

But really I don't care about qualifications and whatnot. I just want someone to get their job done. Don't make up an answer if you don't know what an animal is, or how something is done. Let the person know that you don't know, but will find out and get back with them. Is that to much to ask???

I did contact the state on every occassion, and all those people did was pass the buck. I stated my complaint, and what happened, and it was always someone else's department. Which is ANOTHER reason I don't like game wardens. The whole damn department here in Colorado is nothing but problems. All they care about is where they can get their next dollar from, which license they can increase the cost of, or which study they can get the biggest grant from.

I'm not stating this as fact, it is my own opinion. I felt like I did everything within my power to correct a horrible situation. But untill someone steps up to the plate and says, "Yes, I understand your complaint and will get the proper training out there", it will continue to be an idiotic cycle.

Raptor, how many eggs do the red tails normally have? There were three other birds about the same size that took off out of the tree when I got within a couple hundred yards of the tree. I tried to tell the biologist this also but he kept cutting me off with his insistence that it was a blue grouse.

I was reminded of another bone head move by ODFW. I'm sure Gary and anyone that has worked with or around any of the big hunting ranches with exotics can appreciate this. The feds are trying to regulate alot of the exotic hunting out of business but my state took it a step further. We have/had only one exotic hunting ranch here in OR, they are still around but now only have bison and feral hogs to hunt unless you come across stragglers that haven't been terminated yet. There used to be aisian water buffalo, russian bore, fallow and sitka deer, zebra from time to time, dall sheep, and aoudad. I'm sure I've forgotten something but that gives you an idea. The odfw tried to shut them down for years either by winning a court case against them or by bankrupting them. The ranch won every case at every level and when it finally got to the state supreme court, odfw was told in no uncertain terms to back off. The animals were not "oregon wildlife" and therefore odfw had no jurisdiction. The brains at odfw decided to get around it by reclassifying all these animals as "oregon wildlife" for the purpose of closing down the ranches hunting operation.

In a second unrelated case odfw used similiar tactics. After our logging, agricultural and fishing/wildlife based economy was destroyed by the tree huggers some people looking for optional ways of making a living started raising elk and harvesting their horns. These places were heavily regulated and monitored but that wasn't good enough for fish and wildlife and they managed to put all of them out of business. There was one large ranch in particular that besides having double fencing and no escapes in 10yrs of running it, they had built an educational roadside turnout with informational boards where people could learn about rocky mountain elk. This turnout had to have run in the tens of thousands to put in and you would see everyone from foreign tourist to hunters practicing their bugling there at different times.

I was originally torn about whether this belonged in the political forum or here but the fact is you can't seperate hunting or guns from politics. I've seen too many examples of decisions made out of ignorance, incompetence, and politics. Theodore Roosevelt must be rolling in his grave right now.

Hey Rod. Redtails can have as many as 5 or 6 eggs in the nest, but only about 3 or 4 will fledge, or leave the nest. Of those 3 or 4, only 1 or 2 will actually live to be an adult, maybe 3 if they are lucky.

Thanks, it was foggy so I don't know if any of them I saw flying were the parents or not. I had alot of fun with this one though. We watched it for probably 15minutes and I used my little mouse squeaker for coyote hunting and had it absolutely intrigued.