I have to ask if I'm the only one who stuggles with this. I generally hunt only bucks during archery, but when gun season comes around I become more of a doe hunter. That being said. I find myself never being able to shoot a doe if she is with this years fawn. If I do, I feel the need to take both. I feel that it I take the doe, the fawn could possible not survive the winter. If I shoot the fawn, the doe would mourn the loss. Maybe I'm just crazy, but I think it's an ethical way to look at this.
I found myself in this situation tonight. Having already filled my doe tags by 7:30 opening morning of gun season up here in New York. A friend of mine less fortunate with getting any meat has signed over one of his DMP's. At 2:30 this afternoon I had momma standing 150yrds broadside, and the little one about 25yrds away. Me with my Striker in 308 with crosshairs on her shoulder, and it just didn't feel right. I know if I would have shot her, I would have struggled with shooting her the rest of the night. Am I the only one who struggles with this?

I have no issue with shooting does, but if she has a fawn, I will not shoot her -- period.

Thank you, I feel better. I think of this choice as more ethical with a little emotional involved..

Chad

I am glad that you struggle with this issue.

The answer is, that if your department of Fish and Game, Natural Resources, or what ever your state department that is responsible for setting bag limits, game seasons, has determined that the doe to buck ratio is too high, then by shooting the does you are improving the stability of the herd, that it is a necessary thing.

The only way we will preserver or right to hunt is by being concerned ethical hunters, and I believe that you are there..

John

Thank you John, I appreciate the encouragement. In our state the DEC hands out three doe tags for everyone one doe they expect harvested. A majority of hunter think it's some kind of macho thing to kill a buck only, leaving alot of does to runoff free. With an estimated over 900,000 deer in NY, we do need to manage the herd

Two things I hate to see done and try not to do: shoot does with fawns and shoot button bucks. Usually what I've seen is that momma gets shot, then junior is 'lost' - absolutley no guidance and ends up getting killed anyway. I have no facts to support my statment but I'd bet fawns without mothers have a very high mortality rate.

Spot on. We can be our own biggest enemy at times.

Spot on. We can be our own biggest enemy at times. [/quote]

Yes sir we are!!!!

Sorry....but I would have pulled the trigger. Especially if your friend is on hard times and needs the meat. Good luck finding any does in PA that don't have fawns with them.....if I passed on eveyr mature doe that had fawns with them, I'd never shoot a baldy.

I do however try as much as possible to avoid shooting button bucks.

Sometimes you may need to consider, if a quick death by hunter is better than too many deer that end up under a car someplace.

John,

What you noted above is spot on, carrying capacity of the area. We only have the game department professionals to help us there. The problem nowadays is that it used to be just determining the carrying capicity of the area and the herds. Now they have to factor in the deer that do not always end up under the vehicle, but through the radiator and into the windshield ;^)

Linebaugh, here out west does are generally never on the menu as our Muley herds are not as robust as the deer back east. But, elk cows are extensively hunted as well as bulls. It's a little easier to pull the trigger on a cow with a calf as elk being herd animals probably give the yearlings a better shot at survival. But I did pass up a calf (yearling) shot a few years ago because it did not feel "right" to me. I think if I lived in one of the states that has several does a season limits or the one deer a day type thing, I would be OK with doing a doe with yearling, as again I would default to the game department knowing what they are doing in terms of the greater herd management. I guess kinda the bigger picture kinda thing, if that makes any sense. But ultimately we are the ones who have to live with our decisions, so it is easy to understand your position. Very easy.

Craig

I think that you answered your question. If it does not "feel right" to you, do not do it. You are not hungry. If you and your family were hungry, you would not be asking the question.

However, the next person may feel differently. As long as it is legal & it feel right to him, have at it.

Just my $.02.

I'm in south Georgia. There is very little winter kill. I can't give a survival rate but do know I took a doe last year that had a piebald fawn that wad killed earlier this month. I can also say that most of our doe fawns are being bred their first year so pretty much all of the does with the exception of fawns have little ones. We have harvested quite a few does on our lease this year and I have noticed does that appear to have three or four fawn. I figure they are orphaned that took up with a doe. Either way I think the fawns probably do better than you think they would.

Every hunter must do what he feels is right ,as long as its legal. Myself personally I have no problem harvesting a doe or fawn of the year. Reason being if mother nature decides to make a severe winter its those little ones that will starve first and although small they are mighty fine on the table and as stated before removing does is good the the herd.

I can't do it either... I have no prob with anyone else doing it, I just can't. I have shot fawns not knowing, but not on purpose. Tough to tell size when they are alone.

Any doe is legal in Indiana but, I will not shoot a doe if she has a yearling with her. Other than that, I kill all of the does that offer shots.
Ethical is not the same as legal. I must live with my conscience.

A lot of you have discussed the ethical side of doe hunting, and I applaud you for this. And BTW I totally agree: if it doesn't "feel right" or your conscience says "don't do it," then that is the correct decision. Period.

Others of you have touched on the "herd management" concept. This can be a touchy subject; and yes it can play with our emotions.

To put this in perspective: In order to control the herd numbers (be it deer, elk, antelope)...you name it:

YOU MUST KILL THE FEMALES.

Killing the males does NOT necessarily reduce the herd numbers in a significant percentage in the mid to long term run. This is due to the fact that one male can impregnate (breed) a large number of the females.

I believe that the philosophy "kill a female with young, it may equal 2 kills," is accurate in a large percentage of cases. And especially in the case of the later months after breeding season, it may equal THREE kills; DUE TO THE FACT THAT THE FEMALE MAY BE PREGNANT.

So to sum up what my post is all about: If you are a truly hardcore hunter only wanting to reduce the herd numbers, then go ahead and shoot any doe; with or without a fawn; and this will help get "the job" done.

A case in point that I am very familiar with and affects my livelihood: The Durham Buffalo Ranch near Gillette, Wyoming; home of the HHI Antelope Hunt that I started in 1987; has suffered a herd die-off problem starting about two years ago. Practising good micro-herd management, the ranch has responded by reducing the buck antelope hunts.

But even more meaningfull: The Durham Ranch realizes that responsible herd management does include harvesting of some does also. Their policy (which is correct in my opinion) is to direct the doe hunters to ONLY KILL does without fawns; thereby hopefully harvesting the older dry does: ie. the ones that no longer can reproduce offspring.

Because in this particular case, the Ranch wants the herd numbers to INCREASE.

Aswe get older we get more contemplative about which "killing" is more right. My family are farmers, we raise beef and pigs for meat. my grandfathers sternest rule was to never name an animal, for then it becomes a pet. as he aged, it became more and more difficult for him to be present when the animals were being culled for market, because he felt guilty. I understand everyone's reluctance to seperate a family group, but in reality, by the end of the summer, the fawn crop no longer needs the mother for food. ma nature is a cruel mistress. coyotes are opportunists, old man winter can be unforgiving and the roads consume hundreds with out thought. We as hunters can excersise our own judgement as to which ones we kill and which ones we let walk, andfortunately we only have to answer to our own soul when we make a choice that is within the law. But I have to agree with this thread, some days I let more deer walk than I might have in an earlier time, because I can.

i dont shoot does with fawns. deer have hard enough in maine winters as it is. maybe it dont matter but it dose to me. now if we were hungry all bets off they would both go down. shooting does is strictly regulated in ME. anyway.

The fawns should be old enough to survive on their own, so push back those "human" feelings and blast away.

I have shot a mature doe that had two fawns with her before. I will not do it again either. After I killed her, the two scattered at the shot and continued to run around not having a clue as to what to do. we saw those fawns out at awkward times after that, and eventually found a kill that we think was one of them, and that was in southern MN not in wolf country or where the winters are as severe as up here.

In addition, most of MN is at or below its goal deer herd numbers so it does not make sense for me to fill my tag with a doe at this point when I have to forfeit my buck tag for a flat head. If I was hunting in the areas where the numbers are still high, then I have no problem killing a doe. love the meat

I have no issues killing any legal animal. In my state, we're allow more does to be killed than bucks. I personally will not shoot a doe that has spotted fawn. It is also illegal in my state to kill a spotted fawn, but I have not issue killing a spotless fawn (I will not intentionally kill a buck fawn). In the south, we generally have over population problems; if we didn't shoot does with fawns, we wouldn't kill any does (they all have fawn(s)) and the populations would really explode.

HoggHunter

You are right, as we get older and look down the trail and see or own mortality looming up, we are not in as much of a hurry to kill things.

As I have stated in other threads I taught hunter ed for over 20 years. As hunters we have to be concerned about our ethics and our public image. We have all been subject to adverse public opinion, in one form or another. An example here in Oregon; it is no longer possible to hunt Mt. Lions with dogs or bait Black Bears, the only real methods of keeping those species in check. The fall out from that has been, a greater mortality of Elk calves, and diminishing herd numbers.

Why did this come to pass? Because some group, that believed in the Disney wildlife concept, protested loud enough to have the law changed.

As a career policeman, with the collateral function of Fish and Wildlife Protection officer, I know how useful a tool hunting is in a game management strategy. However game departments are political in nature and sound management practices go right out the window when subjected to public pressure.

I guess my bottom line is that it can be difficult to know what the "right thing" is..

This has been a great thread - lots of opinions/thoughts - and no one reverted to calling names of those that have a different opinion. This is refreshing. Thank you.

Plagioclase

Lots of good common sense folks on this forum.. I just found it and it is "refreshing"..

We beat the the older members early and often back in the day to make them behave and everyone else follows along!!

HAHA, thanks for paving the way for us Dan!

I agree, this has been an interesting thread to read, and I can definitely see how population dynamics from one part of the country to the next has a large role in our approach to this topic.

Guys

I do not believe that for a minute, the hand gun hunter fraternity is like the bow hunters, cut from sterner cloth...

Also as a segment of the shooting community we have a better grasp on what the "Right to keep and bear arms", means since we have greater restrictions.

I never had a problem shooting does, I always prefer to take an good size deer and won't shoot fawns. I take between 4 and 6 a year and would rather take a doe over a small buck.

I look at it as a duty as hunter to help the herd, but JMHO

I always try to take a couple of does every season,the older I get, the more selective I am, it"s a personal decision .

Those who have said that you have shot a doe with fawns and that they acted lost afterwards seems odd for where I am at, here the does have run the fawns off by late October and don't meet back up till late December, I have shot does but usually if a fawn is there then you don't see it act lost they act like other does would if another was shot, they stand a ways away and blow letting all the other deer in the area know that something is there and to avoid it. My brother did this about a week ago taking a doe with a fawn and the fawn is still hanging out with the group it was with and not acting lost at all.

Not saying that you're crazy in your choice just find it odd that I hear others say this but its far from my experiences, well unless you took a doe with fawns in the early blackpowder season but that's in September.

the great take away from this discussion is how different the circumstances are from different areas for a seemingly similar conversation base, and maybe even more profound is listening to these individuals discuss their own self imposed constraints. this thread has been very interesting to say the least.

I'm the same way. If she has a fawn with her I just can't do it and won't shoot her.

A few years ago I passed up a 30 yard shot on the largest doe I'd ever seen because she had 3 with her. But, you don't always see the fawns right with the does as they do get seperated at times, especially when they enter a field to to eat. The doe has purpose, while the fawns often mill about in the woods and enter later. When a buck is heavy on a doe he will chase off the little ones while he tries to do his thing. Obviously they eventually get back together, unless the doe gets shot by someone thinking she is alone ;-)

If the deer are scarce, and one want to eat venison, one cannot be too choosy.

It’s my understanding that fawns start browsing (on a very limited basis) at 2 weeks and by 2 months of age their stomachs are fully developed – negating the absolute need to nurse. So I guess the science would indicate a fawn over 2 months old will be OK, all things being equal.

In Arkansas we don't have a high mortality rate due to our mild winters. Personaly I view all deer as being the same; and while a big buck is really cool to look at, a 6 month old fawn is perfection in the skilit. If I am planning on shooting a doe and a doe and fawn come out. I will shoot the fawn. That is just me and I will not try to force my views an anybody.

I still have a special landowner tag for a cow elk that is good until Jan. 31, and I plan to shoot a calf for that same reason as a calf is legal. I already have my bull in the freezer; will be interesting to compare the steaks for tenderness and taste.

Gregg let us know how it "pans" out! elk steak and eggs sounds really good right now lol

Aren't the fawns old enough to get by on there own by then? I shoot a doe every year and they taste great. My wife does all the buck shooting!

I agree with Whit. I try to leave the mom and young together that first year. Next year lookout though.