This thread has been interesting. When I first read it I thought wow it didn't expand. Then I sat there and thought about it for a minute and realized not only did it not expand but it didn't exit. So without expanding it managed to use all of it's energy inside the animal like an expanding bullet is designed to do but somehow accomplished that without expanding. Makes me think it may have hit a rib at a weird angle and tumbled. Either way it resulted in a dead deer and a nice one to boot.

Yep, and that is the name of the game. I don't know what to think about whether the bullet "worked" or not, but it definitely "worked".

Most definitely! But it does raise some interesting issues.

the key is for these issues to raise questions and have a discussion. as long as it doesn't degenerate into personal attacks and bad feelings. this is done well at this site. one could easily say use cast, but then ya could show a moutain lion pic with a large bore cast round in the hide. these things happen, dead animals are the key and we're all really after the same thing. i appreciate the pics greg.

LOL! I recognize the reference!

haha, i use both and i'm an eternal experimenter, till africa, aframes and busters on the biguns

Keeps it interesting!

Holy crap my heading is spinning from all this info!! This is AWESOME!!!

James, good photo; that is what I would have anticipated for the 400 gr. XTP to look like after it "worked."

And thanks fellas for the compliments as well as sharing so much info; ie. like raptortrapper said!

i remember reading many years ago about a fellow that was complaining to John Nosler that his bullet that was recovered didnt work. Mr Nosler response was at what point in the dears death did the bullet not work? i think we as hunters spend too much time thinking about what a bullet looks like, putting a hole all the way through/ or expending all a bullets energy in an animal, ect. meet in the freezer is meet in the freezer.

The XTP mags dot ever expand all that much for me. Now, hitting a water buff is a different critter and it should. But deer/elk in some cases just aren't enough but the terminal performance side is always excellent. We come back to the point of any nose distortion causes disruption and when they start out at 45 or so and up, who cares. I like that we have choices and that there are so many good choices out there on jacketed and cast for us to use. But the one problem I see among us handgun hunters is that they want to argue which is "best". What is your favorite may not be someone else but that doesn't make it wrong. You don't have to beat people up to prove your best should be their choice also. Just silly when we have so many people out there against us as hunters or gun people and we want to argue amongst ourselves. Just silly and doesn't accomplish anything in the process. If it works, it works, simple as that. I use both types and will continue to do so regardless of what the popular theory is at any given time. Just remember, those that "follow" are always behind

I don't see anyone beating anyone else up on this thread. In fact, it has not only been civil, it has been interesting (at least for me it has). If we cannot discuss/argue the merits of one bullet over another, what is the point of these threads and these websites? If we all agree on everything, these sites wouldn't be all that interesting IMO. I think this thread has raised some good points.

JMHO.

you missed my point. This thread has been Civil and I'm impressed. My point was that we all know the merits of each bullet type, we've beat them around over and over. However, there is nothing to say that the same thing wouldn't have happened in this case with a cast slug. You just never know. In the posts on the other forums where it was reposted, there are the guys that deem it a failure, etc. That's bull and then there are the experts that claim that the cast would have exited in this case....Really??? How do we know that? That's my point. In the end, it doesn't come down to the merits of the bullets, it comes down to people trying to convince the others that their choice is wrong. As far as this slug being a failure, I'd say it performed as expected and designed. I think that the 400 grain XTP is about as close to a cast slug as one can get with a jacketed slug. It has a nice "flattish" front on it and it performs strength wise much like a solid in most applications but its strong enough to perform well in a larger animal. As you have stated, it failed to exit or really expand and it has a HP so it was designed to expand. That's not always the case. In some states, where you have to have a HP slug, this is a great compromise. It passes the law but it will most likely perform as a solid. I've seen that some were able to use the punch bullets in some of those areas just because it has a divot on the nose but they consider it a HP for the purposes of the law. I can guarantee that one will most likely not expand either but it will perform just like the magnum versions of the XTP. In the cases where they do expand, great, if not, who cares, you just shoved a 400 grain slug nearly 1/2" wide through the animal and its dead. So to go out and plaster it as a failure on other sites, I don't agree personally. Would the cast slug do better in this particular case...Who knows....maybe, maybe not. In the end, who cares, it worked and that's all that matters. I've shot a lot of stuff over the years with cast and they are great but they are not the end all for handguns by any stretch of the imagination in my opinion. Just because you hit one with a big cast slug does not guarantee death anymore than it does with a jacketed bullet. They all work and they usually work well. Its up to you to make sure that you match them up appropriately. However, it is nice to know that there are jacketed slugs out there that can handle the chores that normally would go to a cast slug

But in the end, more importantly than anything is shot placement....No matter how big a bullet or how well it penetrates, whether that be a 300 grain 44 slug or a 525 grain 500 slug, if placed in the wrong location, you can wound or cause it to die very slowly and you may never recover it. Doesn't matter what it was at that point, it doesn't equal a happy ending for the hunter or the game. That is what I would deem a failure in my book. So, in the end, as far as the slugs go, I like them all, don't care what it looks like. If I'm shooting, I'm happy

I didn't miss your point at all. The fact is that with that big hollow cavity up front it will do a poor imitation of a proper, flat meplat (cast, jacketed, titanium plated, whatever). I too think that these bullets were not designed to actually expand, but then they are far from ideal for penetration even if the nose fills up with material. You do realize of course that all handgun bullets on the market in the US are considered expanding bullets, don't you? As you pointed out, that is why the Punch (and the CorBon Penetrator) have a small hole in the nose. It's all semantics anyhow! They are ALL classified as "expanding" bullets whether they actually do expand or not. And I will bet ducks to dollars that the magnum version of the XPT will not perform like a Punch bullet. That meplat (and nose profile) is responsible for wound channel size and stabilizing the bullet in flesh. I have never seen one turn or tumble like this XTP appears to have done.

As I have stated here, as well as elsewhere, it is hard to argue with the results -- it killed the animal quite capably. However, I will stand by the asertion that if indeed, the bullet was designed to expand (and perhaps it wasn't designed to expand), then it failed on that front. It's not that difficult a concept to swallow. Can we agree to this?

On the other sites, where this bullet was posted, it was not declared a failure by the poster, nor do I believe anyone called it a failure unless I missed it. Again, I said that if indeed it was designed to expand and it didn't well, then that aspect of its design failed.

I do prefer a proper flat-nosed hardcast to most bullets, but just like with jacketed bullets, not all of them are created equally (as was the point of the postings on other sites of this bullet), but you will note, that I frequently use jacketed expanding (or not) bullets on hunts/shoots to further my understanding of terminal dynamics and to educate myself with hands-on experience as I don't think one can ever learn too much. It's a never ending process. I used this very same bullet this last weekend on a hog, so despite my perceived biases, I am open-minded enough to see for myself.

I thought this thread was going pretty good and am not sure if I missed something that indicated a heated argument. Maybe on another forum but that's why I am here. I will say that this has been about the best forum group or the fastest mods I have ever spent much time around. I don't see a problem with a xtp mag not expanding properly if they are designed for larger thicker skinned game. As far as best bullets I say use what you have confidence in. Though I wouldn't call this a complete failure I will say that the bullet used is probably not the best choice for deer but it will kill them as will many other. Probably a great choice if hunting both elk and deer.

This is a great thread and the type of dicussions we should have. Id just add that it appears the original bullet lost some weight and perhaps the loss of weight did come from violent expansion and despite the fact it wasnt mushroomed it very well may have done lots of wound damage from the fragments cutting vital tissue on the way through. Recently a friiend shot a 125 lb hog on my land with a 240 gr xtp factory hotnady load at 15 yards. Some small portion of the bullet passed thru the shoulders because we found about a 50 small pieces of the bullet spread over about the size of a softball on the offside of the vital cavity and in te hide on the offside. The entrAnce hole into the chest cavity was about twice te size of my fist. I thought he had to have Spined te hog as it just dumped over. First non cns Drt hog kill ive seen with a pistol. It was impressive and no i wont use that bullet on big stuff but what seemed to have happened with gregg's bullet is what is seen with some of the CEB rifle bullets. Just food for thought.

Okay, so if I can put this all together, and draw one conclusion from all of this, it would be that the bullet would have been just fine if he hadn't used magnum primers. Is that correct??!!

(DON'T answer that!! I just couldn't resist!)

LOL, don't go down that road and by the way I like MAGNUM PRIMERS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

HAHA!!! Yeah, that is a one way road to "Guys... I'm watching!"

Love the chocolate horns on that deer.

I have had the offside hide catch several bullets over the years. Most (not all) had a reason for the bullet recovery, shoulder, spine, distance or hard quarter. Our whitetails go 275ish lbs on the hoof max for the big ones. Using .44 mags and .45 colt mags we use the expanding bullets like the Barnes X and Swift A frames. If our deer were to suddenly grow to 350 lbs or more I think less expansion like this XTP mag bullet or hard cast would be considered.

Greg, moving forward will you continue to use that same load for your deer hunting?

Again, great buck!

Yes, this load has accounted for two bull elk and three mule deer bucks in two seasons.

FWIW, it appears the bullet did mushroom because the petals broke off near the bottom of the hollow point nose or hole. You are seeing the side of the bullet basically from the bottom of the hole down to the base.

I'd say that "works" just fine.....

That's what I thought you would say. Your results prove the effectiveness.

I can only use shotgun slugs, muzzle loaders and handguns to hunt deer in my state. Every bullet we shoot is moving at 1400 fps or less. Large farms are two hundred acres here. Large expanding bullets are preferred. We have learned to hunt them up close.

Where you put your bullet is 95% of your result IMO.