Here is another group from that same .45 that shot the first group. The shot on the left was a sight adjustment. The next three shots are in the top hole-25 yards. reflex264

If you are going to shoot that DT load I would drop down to a 19lbs spring. You will be surprised at the change.

Thanks for the kind words.

Glad the barrel and spring worked out glocks worked over are very accurate and dependable. I hope you get a lot of joy out of shooting it

Also bladetech makes holsters for glocks with red dots so don't worry about it being a holster gun with a reflex sight mounted

Forgot check out dale fricke holsters he either makes a red dot mounted holster or will custom make one for ya. He is a very nice guy

Thanks for the info! I'll check into that for sure. At this point I might just get another Glock slide assembly and have one set up both ways. All I needed was an excuse.....lol

I believe lonewolf is producing glock frames and slides too so that might be a option. They do custom slide serations and finishes if you want another slide

Well....I took my new Glock and double tap ammo to SC this morning. Shot a doe at 20 yds through the ribs. She ran about 75 yds and crashed. You wouldn't believe the damage the bullet did! Looked like a 270 hit. Pics to come.

Dang, that was quick. This is the time of the year I hate you southern boys ;^) A deer a day until you get sick of it. Just kidding, as I was raised in GA and Al.

Great job. Any idea what bullet is atop that DT load? And thanks for the pictures. Worth a lot of words...

Craig

I believe they are Remington JHP. Not sure though. They are kind of gold in color just like the Remington bullets. Whatever they are, they do a fine job!

That is awesome to see!!! I am running a 45 acp +p that is pushing a 220 gr bullet 990 fps. I was worried about penetration but seeing your pics gives me hope.

Nicely done!

I don't think you'll have a bit of trouble. This doe wasn't very big. Maybe 90-100 lbs. But seeing the damage the bullet did, and the penetration it gave, I wouldn't be scared to shoot a big buck with them at the distance I shot her at. I think my shooting ability would run out before this load's effectiveness would. I look at it as a bow that's way easier to pack. lol!

The Double Tap box says 230 gr brass jacketed bullet @ 1000 fps. Not a plus p load according to them though. Recoil and blast isn't bad at all. I think I may get hooked on this auto hunting....

Toby,

More for the other folks here, but a 230 grain bullet doing 1000 is way beyond 45acp and 45+P. And if you look at Hodgdons data for 45 Super, it's about 50 fps faster than their data for 20K psi. If anyone is considering trying to duplicate these loads, please use 45 Super brass from Starline. You can pretty easily get 230's closer to 1100 fps and beyond, but you really need to be on top of your reloading game.

It's no wonder the inside was such a mess, I bet that bullet was durn near turned inside out when it went through. Your shot was 100% perfect for that bullet.

Craig

I was wondering why DT doesn't list that as a plus p load myself. I have my gun set up for 45 Super with a 24lb recoil spring and fully supported barrel, so I should be ok either way. But, at that spring weight I'm getting some ftw issues with those loads. I believe as Reflex264 says, I would be better served with a 19 or 20lb spring.
Not sure what the result of that load would be on a bigger deer shot in the shoulder, but I promise to try to find out. ...

Toby,

Not sure what the brass is headstamped, but I too am surprised about DT not marking the box.

Yes, the fully ramped barrel is pretty important. In the 1911, a throated barrel is usually the weak link in the equation. The brass can usually handle the pressure, but the part of the back of the case that hangs unsupported over the throated portion of the barrel can bulge or blow. Been there for both, and the latter is no fun.

Not sure what a FTW is, but if you mean feeding problems, that too is common in the 1911 platform when you bump up the recoil/action spring weight. You start to outrun the magazine's ability to keep up with the return slide speed. I have to stay on top of magazine cleanliness, and try and run +p strength mag springs. I think Relex went over some fixes for the Glock in another thread. Dual springs or something?

And it may not seem critical on a hunting gun where you can tolerate a misfeed further down the round count, in the 1911 the killer here is when the poor feed causes the bullet to get setback in the case. This can send case pressures through the roof. This was the cause of my only case rupture.

Looking forward to more reports.......

Craig

I'm shooting a Glock 21. I just started shooting to this platform, so I'm new to it for now. Ftf Is failure to feed. I think the slide isn't making it back far enough before it returns to battery. I would say a weaker spring should fix it.
The DT loads are stamped 45 acp. No plus p or super stamp at all. Maybe they have access to a different powder, but who knows how they're getting that speed. I haven't cronographed them, so I don't even know if the specs are correct.

Update. Installed the LWD trigger today. What a difference! Not 1911 crisp, but nuch lighter than factory.

I guess you could call me a trigger snob in all my guns, short and long. No replacement for practice and trigger time, but when you can spend a little money and make it better, it never hurts. Great to hear.

Craig

For what it's worth, using Power Pistol and Alliant load data, it's not far off from delivering 1000 fps with a 230gr bullet, and Alliant doesn't list it as plus P either. It consistently runs 975 fps from my G21, right around 1000 fps from a 5" barrel. Using standard ACP brass I've never had a problem with this load.

Also to note, Hodgdons 45 Super data is a joke, it's literally less than .45 ACP +P, and can (and should) be loaded well into the 30K PSI range.

Yes. Brian Pierce wrote an article in Handloader awhile back about 45acp loads. He had several in that range using Power Pistol powder. He said they were standard pressure loads. We simply have much better components today that give us plenty of punch to hunt deer with auto pistols. Range is probably more limited by the shooter than the gun these days.

45 and Toby,

I don't think it is completely fair to characterize Hogdon 45 Super data as a joke. We have to always bear in mind that for component suppliers to supply reloading data, all that they can use to keep them out of court is SAAMI. If you look at page 17 of the "Voluntary Industry Performance Standards for Pressure and Velocity of Centerfire Pistol and Revolver Ammunition for the Use of Commercial Manufacturers" (SAAMI Specs) you will see the actual "official" published numbers for the 45acp. For a 230 grain bullet, they show 830 fps at 21000 psi (max average pressure). For the 45 ACP +P there is only one entry. A 185 JHP at 1130 fps, with a MAP pressure of 23000 psi. If you look at the numbers in CUP, per SAAMI the MAP for a 230 is 18000. The Hodgdon numbers that I have for the Super are also listed in CUP, pretty much topping out 21000 (cup). I have not found a SAAMi entry for 45+P in CUP.

In comparing PSI numbers, +P is 2000 PSI greater than standard. IN CUP, the 45 Super data is 3000 CUP greater than standard. But and it's a big one, there is no SAAMI for the 45 Super. Hodgden seems to be reasonable. A little light, sure. If Alliant is not listing pressure, in PSI or CUP it's difficult to say exactly what you would call it ;^)

With that said, and with a ton of experience with the 460 Rowland which runs at 39K CUP per Hodgden, there is indeed some wiggle room with the 45 Super IMHO, if you pay attention to the details. The details being the brass and the unsupported part of your chamber/barrel.

I would feel pretty solid saying that you could run SAAMI 45 +P load data with something like Blazer brass, in a barrel that was excessively throated and blow out some cases. On the flip side, +p or even standard 45 acp brass in a comped 45 ACP barrel can be run a lot higher without ruin to the gun or shooter. I have run 45 Super brass with a Clark comped barrel in a 1911 closer to Rowland pressures, than 45 ACP. At least that was my guess, soley looking at velocity, as I have no way to measure pressure.

This is not to pick nits per say, just to point out that it can be done, but requires a certain amount of care. I'll be running my Super this season, with a 250 grain bullet doing 1050 fps in a non-comped 1911. In the same gun, I feel my 230's at 1150 fps are perfectly safe. My gun has a few mods to deal with it, my brass is new Starline 45 Super brass, and at this level (and mods) I am not seeing any appreciable wear on my gun. I completely agree with you 45, I think something closer to 30k PSI can be safe.

And Toby, I agree 100%. 50 or 75 fps really is not going to mean squat generally, as most of the time folks are trying to get handgun loads a tad flatter for longer range. For an iron sighted or even red dotted 45acp, realistically you are not trying to get that last 25 yards past 125 yards. I am only pushing mine just a tad, as Colorado specifies 550 ft-lbs of energy at 50 yards. I will not be in Colorado this year, but since I am going to the trouble, might as well cover that base, just in case ;^)

Craig

You might notice that Hodgdon used W-W brass for the .45 Super loads. W-W doesn't even make super brass. Dean Grinnell originaly built the brass from .451 Detonics which is like a .308 case cut off and reamed so that the .451 bullets will fit. His goal from the begining was for it to opperate at 28,000CUP. BUT this was in the strong brass. The .45 Super brass made by starline is that strong. If you haven't seen the pics of Glocks using stock barrels and .45ACP brass instead of the super strong starline that went kaboom! it is very eye oppening. Remember boys if you make a mistake do it on the side of safety. Just saying.........reflex264

Reflex,

My kaboom was magazine opening and slide opening ;^) I'm not going there again, if I can avoid it. In my case it was not a reloading problem per se, but gun bullet mismatch. That 255 got crammed in the case when feeding. That "kerchunk" feeding that was going on with that bullet was the road out ahead sign I missed. Drove right over the cliff........

There is an interesting thread going on over on one of the 1911 forums in reloading. Guys are talking a little about the bulge buster dies. The dies that iron out the bulged cases from high pressure loads matched with unsupported barrels. Yup, that is where I want to be working my brass, at the case head web with 35 or 40k psi going on :^(

I have worked with 308 brass with shot loads for the 1911. If I had an inside reamer, I would probably fiddle with it for the Super. I always thought that a reamed case would pretty much insure no feeding setback. Not a bad safety precaution. Alas, the Starline Super brass made me give up on that.

Craig

A while back I started playing with the .308 brass. The Rowland stopped my experiment. I ahve had it to the limit with no set back. My thinking is since the rearward inertia is disapated before it has time to move the gun it also wards off inertia pulling or pushing the bullet in the case.

In the Glock I worked with seating lengths till I felt I had perfected it with each bullet. The way the bullets feed in the Glock vs the 1911 may be beneficial in allowing the bullets to chamber with the lengths I came up with without damaging the bullets.

Here are the seating lengths with some of the bullets.

Reflex,

What I do with the Rowland and my Super is first determine the OAL that the bullet ogive hits the lands. Then I compare this to whether it fits the 1911 magazine, then I check to see if the base of the bullet flares the case web too much to chamber. Comparing to your pictured bullets, with a 265 Cast Performance my OAL was 1.200. With the 250 XTP, I am at 1.215. Both pretty much within a few thou of your loads. I tried the 185 Barnes TAC ( I have a very large stash of them), but never got beyond checking, as the case mouth was so far up the ogive tapering, that I either had to crimp at something like 0.443 or leave it uncrimped with a nasty lip between the case mouth and ogive. My 255 SWC's run 1.215.

I have seen some distortion of bullet noses in the magazine, under the recoil of the rounds further up the feed chain. The blowout I had about 10 years ago with the Rowland was with a National Bullet 255 SWC. This was not a terribly hard bullet, and it would get really mashed in the magazine. It was just the wrong bullet, and insuficient experience on my part.

For the 1911, I am pretty well convinced that the Super is a more flexible round. You do not have to fight nose ogives nor the heavier bullets getting into the case web. I purchased a Clark compensated 45 ACP barrel, and with Starline Super brass, I pretty much duplicated my Rowland loads. The comp acted like it does on the Rowland Conversion, keeping the gun locked a tad longer, and the Starline Super brass seems to me every bit as strong as Rowland brass. With either the 45 ACP Clark or the Rowland Clark in the 1911, there is no way I could get the top ends like you are getting with the Glock. Clarks barrel throating is just too much, to not have bulged cases, with 230's doing much more than 1350 fps.

I decided to run a new Super setup this year, a Kart EZ Fit barrel that is really accurate in my gun. Without the comp, I have to dial back a little. I have matched the recoil impulse with my heavy super loads to "match" the Rowland feel (with comp), and the velocity is reasonable, with no signs of abuse to my gun. I ran an early Clark Rowland without the comp for a while, so I know what that recoil feels like. The gun whips like crazy, and I eventually sheared the lower lugs on that barrel. I also throated the chamber (not ramp) in my Kart barrel, and the additional .025 of freebore has really helped with the heavier bullets.

With my Kart barrel and the 45 Super, the Barnes 185 is doing 1250 fps, 230's are running about 1200 fps, and the various 250-255's are doing 1050-1075. Everything feeds wonderfully, and recoil is a piece of cake. I am also running a stock style spring plug and rod/plug, so I do not need tools to take it down.

Craig

Do you think it was the heavy recoil spring that sheared the lower lug on your 1911 barrel? How many shots did it take? I guess that's an advantage of the Glock, in that it doesn't have a pin that the barrel rides on. It looks to me like the barrel just rides up a ramp until it locks into the slide, and the bottom lug hits the slide stop. I suppose that the polymer frame absorbs the impact a little better. Not that I've ever worn out a 1911.....

Toby,

It was absolutely top end loads, and the speed at which the barrel lower lugs was hitting the frame abuttment in the gun. I am sure the 24 lb recoil spring was not helping on the forward impact of the lugs on the slide stop.

When the Rowland first came out, it was reported that the system needed the comp to work properly. Being a tinkerer, I just had to prove it to myself. With the comp. it is not so much gases venting up and keeeping the muzzle down, as much as the gases hitting the forward vertical surfaces of the comp and keeping the barrel and comp "pulled" forward for the tiniest amount of time, to help slow down the rearward slam of the barrel to the frame.

I was lot younger, and dumber, and just the horrible recoil and twisting of the gun when firing pretty much made it unshootable for anything that resembed a follow-up shot. One of those things they call a Clue ;^) The Glock Rowland and Super for that matter is a much newer concept. It will be interesting to see how they hold up. I am sure the frames ability to flex some has got to make a big difference.

Craig

So far so good on the Glock. Probably at least 1000 rounds with so sign of battering. The only problems I have seen are with XDs. Originaly Rowland said they woudln't hold up then they started building them. The little Glock 30 holds up fine.

I think we agree that the super is a better fit for the 1911. For that matter I have thought of picking up a V16 Springfield. Nice factory package that will run out of the box. reflex264

Why would you say the super is better in the 1911? Because of the steel frame?

I think the super is better because of less pressure. The nature of the way a Glock works makes it more suitable for higher pressure. That said there is little differnce in real world performance between the two cartridges. Running at 28,000 vs 40,000 can only increase the life of the gun. I am loading my .460 to around 35,000 at which it will live forever. When I think I need more I can always step up. Both cartridges are completely capible of taking deer or hogs. The Rowland at the top end can take elk and has done so. reflex264

Yes. I think I misunderstood your post. I thought you were saying a 1911 was better as a higher pressure platform than the Glock. I was wondering if I read that wrong.

I completely agree with Reflex. 40k PSI is getting to be on the hard side for a 1911. Granted the 10mm is more in that range, but the wider 45 case hits the breech with more backthrust. It's not just case pressure, but where it gets directed ;^)

But I also think the 45 Super is a bit easier to reload, as many projectiles get tricky in the longer Rowland case. To fit the 1911 magazine, sometimes the OAL gets so short that the longer Rowland case mouth hits above the full caliber ogive taper. I have seen this with a couple of flavors of 230 fmj's.

I have not purchased Rowland brass for quite a long time, but 45Super from Starline has never been a problem for me.

I think anything that you can do to add weight and length to the 1911 slide and/or barrel will help. A longslide would make for a dandy platform. I may be disremembering, but isn't the V16 ported?

Craig

Yes the V16 is ported. It is also slick gun right out of the box. It was interesting to see Springfield deal with slide velocity right off the bat. I have seen some of them sell for very good prices. reflex264

Si yo residiera en EEUU tendria solo armas americanas,,son las mejores del mundo !

Hola Andres. Sí, nos tienen algunos maravillosos armas aquí. reflex264

No sé si entiendes a este tema pero estamos discutiendo la Glock versus la Springfield XD. Me convertí mi Glock 21SF al.460 Rowland. reflex264

Awesome thread! Lots of great info and I think I can blame Toby for adding a Glock to my wishlist. Nice shooting BTW.

As far as my very rusty Spanish and a couple word lookups allows:

Chxuzt said Americans make the best weapons in the world.

Reflex says Hi and that yes, we have marvelous guns here.

I think Reflex then says I don't know if you understand what we are discussing, but it's Glocks vs. XDs. I converted my Glock21SF to a Rowland.

Mas o menos?