my first trip to John Gallagher's shop, he showed me one of his .458-400 vaqueros in six shot configuration. he said the max that the gun would safely take was a 400 at 900 fps or somewhere there about. it was his Alaskan backup bear protection. he said at the Linebaugh seminars that this combo only gave up around 6 inches of penetration to the 475 linebaugh at max. playing with my 45 colt with the max cylinder cut down to fill up the window, it doesnt do well on the chronograph until bullet weight gets to 340 grains minimum. seems like my 45 should at least reach 900 fps and maybe a little more with 400 grain class bullets. doesnt seem to me that 0.006 of an inch should make that much difference in stability and what not. i am thinking that it is most likely rifling twist. maybe GlennS will chime in. what say ye?
matt

I would argue that if you want to shoot 400 grain bullets you should move up in diameter. A 400 grain .452 bullet is very long, eating precious case capacity. I have experimented with really heavy-for-caliber bullets in a number of calibers to include 400 grain bullets in the .454 (while they worked fine, they didn't do anything the 360 or even lighter loads did), 405 grain bullets in .429 Magnum, and even 700 grain bullets in .500 S&W. They didn't work particularly well as they wouldn't stabilize in flight or in the test medium. When bullets go sideways, they don't penetrate worth a darn. If you want a good backup load that is mild, you can load your .45 with 300 - 335 grain bullets at low velocities and they will penetrate like there is no tomorrow. None of the heavy bullet loads we tested were able to achieve much velocity (no case capacity), so within the limited confines of our revolver cartridges, I believe you will be much better served with a lighter bullet. JMHO.

Stock Ruger .45 Colts have a 1:16 twist while the customs will typically be fitted with a 1:18 twist barrel. I don't think there is enough of a difference to affect the way they shoot though there are those who will argue it is enough of a difference.

Also interesting to note that John Linebaugh, in the early days, would fit custom .45 Colts with slower twist barrels to make them more shootable with heavy bullet loads. Shootable how? A fast twist can make the gun torque and subsequently twist in your hand when running them hard. The slower twist made them more "gentle."

I would agree.

I concur with the two previous posts.

Glen Fryxell wrote an article on the Los Angeles Silhouette Club website about heavyweight bullets in the 44mag. His conclusion and apparently the others who have posted above is that there is a sweet spot where the caliber will be most efficient in wringing all of the energy possible from the powder volume available.

While his article dealt with the 44mag, his logic should equate to pretty much any other straight walled handgun cartridge. At some point the extra weight becomes a detriment to both the exterior and interior ballistics.

http://www.lasc.us/fryxell44overweight.htm

Of interest is the .45 Gallegher built for LABRAT will swallow .454 ammo and has room left. Obviously we didn't shoot them. The length of the cylinder allows a greater OAL than a .454. With the 360grs it has more powder capacity than the .454 because of length retrictions on the .454 cylinders. Once again obviously it isn't built for .454 pressures. Within its working pressures it seems to shoot 335grs-360grs all around 1270fps if my memory serves me correctly. I believe where Matt is coming from is because of the behavior of John's gun he should be able to duplicate the performance with his .45. reflex264

You never know till you try, there isn't anything to lose if you work up slow with that extra case capacity. Plus, for the ranges you will use it, it may end up working. Would be a fun experiment

I was there when John shot the 458-400 vaquero into the paper at the Linebaugh Seminar. It was pretty incredible. John walked up to the front and pulled that vaquero from his front pocket. I was wondering what in the world he was doing because with the mods and the short barrel, it looked like a cap gun in his hands. It recoiled very little and penetrated within 4 inches of the big guns that day. I was in love with that gun that day. The other things that John does with those guns is that they are lightened everywhere you can take weight. All three of them have steel grip frames with all the extra metal in them gone and lightened in the main frame also. Very accurate guns and carry like a dream. He wanted it for bear protection when going for water or such from the tents at night in AK when he used to go up there all the time.

As far as the 452 goes, I say try it and see what happens, what's it gonna hurt??? Your twist rate may not quite be right but you never know till you try it. I typically don't go over about 300-325 in the 45s personally but I've just never tried anything else heavier to be honest. Good luck!

i have the parts for a 500 linebaugh, just need to take them to Gallagher's for assembly. one of my favorite quotes is by john Linebaugh and is dont load your little gun heavy,load your big gun normal. Whit, i am familiar with your pentration test work and refer to Big Bore Revolvers many times a week, sometimes more than I do Sixguns by Keith. It just seems to me that given the similarity between the six shot 458-400 and six shot 45 colt, that similar performance should be obtained.GlennS, I got to handle the birds head vaquero that he built and it was one of the coolest little guns that i have ever handled.

Mine did not have the birds head. His personal one is the only one of the three that was built like that. Very cool little sixguns. Hit hard too

I would still love to have one of the Gallagher 500 S&W special guns. I have had a couple of doner guns I could have sent but did other things with them. If I run across a used Bisley I still may have him do one.

We discussed having a mold cut last night for a 400gr that had the crimp groove in the proper location for Matt's gun. Having a bullet that would take advantage of the added case capacity would be a step in the right direction. reflex264