 Ruger .357 Maximum
#158966
05/13/2015 4:02 PM
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Joined: May 2015
Posts: 95
Coogs
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New to this forum, not new to the Max. Some of you may recognize me from some other forums around, whitworth did. Anyways, thought I may share a little bit of info on the Ruger Maximum. The round was actually developed as the .357 super mag by Elgin Gates. Some Sevilles and Dan Wessons are marked as such. While a .357 Maximum shell will work in the super mag, the true super mag shells mat very well not chamber in the Ruger. Reason? The true super mag shell is a tad longer than the Max round. I'm gettin old so can't remember the exact dimension. Not much, but, a properly seated bullet in a super mag round may very well stick out the face of the cylinder on a Ruger. David Bradshaw,well, pretty much worked with about everybody, Elgin, Ruger, Remington and Federal in helping develope this round.
primarily developed for those big steel rams, it has worked it's way into a great hunting round. It was developed to produced long, downrange energies, with less recoil than the .44 mag.
Some issues about the Ruger developed, top strap cutting, which by the way WILL CEASE after about a 1000rounds or so (I owned a Smith 19 that should more evidence of top strap cutting than any of my Maxi's). The biggest problem was forcing cone erosion. The initial forcing cone in the max was 5 degrees, later changed to 11 degrees which helped quite a bit. The major reason for the erosion was very light bullets on top of FAST burning powders that shoved the little guy out at MACH 6 velocities!! As least they tried to. The round is intended to be loaded with heavy bullets, 180 grain or larger(I load 180, 200 and 210 gr. cast w/checks) on top of SLOW burning powders. (my powder of choice is 4227).
Ruger produced 16,314 Maximums in 7 1/2 and 10 1/2 barrel lengths. Believe it or not, Ruger DESTROYED about 5000 or so Maximums in various stages of construction, from serialized frames to completed guns. This leaves less than 11,500 Maximums out there. As Max can attest to, there have been quite a few converted to the various "handcannons" They make a great platform for that. They are not too bad just left alone. OK, long rant, more to follow, Coogs
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Re: Ruger .357 Maximum
[Re: Coogs]
#158968
05/13/2015 5:35 PM
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Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 9,836
Whitworth
Shootist
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Shootist
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 9,836 |
New to this forum, not new to the Max. Some of you may recognize me from some other forums around, whitworth did. Anyways, thought I may share a little bit of info on the Ruger Maximum. The round was actually developed as the .357 super mag by Elgin Gates. Some Sevilles and Dan Wessons are marked as such. While a .357 Maximum shell will work in the super mag, the true super mag shells mat very well not chamber in the Ruger. Reason? The true super mag shell is a tad longer than the Max round. I'm gettin old so can't remember the exact dimension. Not much, but, a properly seated bullet in a super mag round may very well stick out the face of the cylinder on a Ruger. David Bradshaw,well, pretty much worked with about everybody, Elgin, Ruger, Remington and Federal in helping develope this round.
primarily developed for those big steel rams, it has worked it's way into a great hunting round. It was developed to produced long, downrange energies, with less recoil than the .44 mag.
Some issues about the Ruger developed, top strap cutting, which by the way WILL CEASE after about a 1000rounds or so (I owned a Smith 19 that should more evidence of top strap cutting than any of my Maxi's). The biggest problem was forcing cone erosion. The initial forcing cone in the max was 5 degrees, later changed to 11 degrees which helped quite a bit. The major reason for the erosion was very light bullets on top of FAST burning powders that shoved the little guy out at MACH 6 velocities!! As least they tried to. The round is intended to be loaded with heavy bullets, 180 grain or larger(I load 180, 200 and 210 gr. cast w/checks) on top of SLOW burning powders. (my powder of choice is 4227).
Ruger produced 16,314 Maximums in 7 1/2 and 10 1/2 barrel lengths. Believe it or not, Ruger DESTROYED about 5000 or so Maximums in various stages of construction, from serialized frames to completed guns. This leaves less than 11,500 Maximums out there. As Max can attest to, there have been quite a few converted to the various "handcannons" They make a great platform for that. They are not too bad just left alone. OK, long rant, more to follow, Coogs Coogs, there is more than a little evidence that Bill Ruger, Jr. actually developed the round before Elgin had the idea and it may have inadvertently been leaked to him by David Bradshaw, who as you know did more R&D on the Ruger .357 Maximum than probably anyone. Elgin has been getting credit for the development for a long time, but when I was researching my Ruger book, new information came to light. Good to have you here, Coogs! Gotta love the Maximums!
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Re: Ruger .357 Maximum
[Re: Whitworth]
#158972
05/13/2015 8:44 PM
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Joined: May 2015
Posts: 95
Coogs
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Max, I have letter, that I recently came across,I did have it in my possession when we we talking about info for your book, but just actually forgot about it until now. I think I should get you a copy of it. PM me your e-mail so I can get you a copy.Coogs.
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Re: Ruger .357 Maximum
[Re: Coogs]
#158982
05/14/2015 12:28 PM
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Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 9,836
Whitworth
Shootist
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Shootist
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 9,836 |
Jack, take a look at your PMs.
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Re: Ruger .357 Maximum
[Re: Whitworth]
#158983
05/14/2015 3:00 PM
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Joined: May 2015
Posts: 95
Coogs
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Max, haven't gotten any, Coogs.
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Re: Ruger .357 Maximum
[Re: Coogs]
#158985
05/14/2015 3:14 PM
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Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 9,836
Whitworth
Shootist
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Shootist
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Posts: 9,836 |
Copied and pasted it as a reply to the PM you sent me now. Also sent you my fax number. Thanks!
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Re: Ruger .357 Maximum
[Re: Whitworth]
#159338
05/27/2015 10:33 AM
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Joined: May 2015
Posts: 95
Coogs
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Max, did you get my pm's? Coogs.
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Re: Ruger .357 Maximum
[Re: Coogs]
#159587
06/02/2015 11:49 AM
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Joined: May 2015
Posts: 95
Coogs
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And the discussion continues!
A little more Max info. When the trouble, and hence complaints, started with the flame cutting and forcing cone erosion, Ruger brought in Walter Howe, head of special projects. Now, I don't know if it was specifically to find a solution or for what purpose, be he became involved. Walter knew/was friends with Jeff Munnel, long time Ruger guru and part owner of US Arms while they were in Arizona. Walter knew that US Arms was producing the Seville in .357 Maximum. He contacted Jeff about it to see if they were having any issues. Now I don't know the entire context of the conversation, some day I may get some more info, but, Jeff offered to send Walter a .357 Maximum Seville.Jeff walked out to the production line, pulled one off, packed it up and shipped it off. Ruger put 1000 proof loads through it as well as 8000 factory loads. The gun was also Rockwell tested in two different locations. Jeff did finally get it back, uncleaned, looking like it had been drug through the mud. Jeff cleaned it up and decided to put another 1000 rounds through it just so he could say it had been shot 10,000 times. I happen to be the proud owner of this gun as well as all documentation. Interestingly the Seville is stainless. Ruger did produce six Stainless Maximums, three of them have been destroyed, three of them are still in existence. No, I don't own one, yet, but know where two of them are. Coogs.
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Re: Ruger .357 Maximum
[Re: Coogs]
#159589
06/02/2015 1:48 PM
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Joined: Sep 2013
Posts: 4,669
Chance Weldon
Distinguished Expert
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Distinguished Expert
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Just how bad was the flame cutting and forcing cone erosion with the Max? I've always heard it and the 445 Super Mag were infamous for those problems, but I never hear about higher intensity rounds like the 454, 460, and 500 having those kinds of problems.
Formerly TN Lone Wolf
"We are only as strong as we are united, as weak as we are divided." - J.K. Rowling
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Re: Ruger .357 Maximum
[Re: Chance Weldon]
#159590
06/02/2015 2:03 PM
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Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 9,836
Whitworth
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Just how bad was the flame cutting and forcing cone erosion with the Max? I've always heard it and the 445 Super Mag were infamous for those problems, but I never hear about higher intensity rounds like the 454, 460, and 500 having those kinds of problems. Purportedly it got to a certain point and then stopped. The flame cutting and forcing cone erosion didn't even rear its head until folks started loading light bullets at high velocities.
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Re: Ruger .357 Maximum
[Re: Whitworth]
#159592
06/02/2015 4:08 PM
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Joined: May 2015
Posts: 95
Coogs
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I'm not a metalurgist, heck I don't think I can even spell it, but, I would have to say that the high intensity heat of the powder gases released from the barrel/cylinder gap, would eventually temper the top strap to where any additional cutting ceased, just a thought. I shoot only 180gr. and larger bullets on top of 4227 and mine show flame cutting, but it has never gotten any worse. As Whit said, forcing cone erosion only became an issue with fast burning powders and lite bullets at Mach 10 speeds. Not at all what the round was designed/intended for. Coogs.
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Re: Ruger .357 Maximum
[Re: Coogs]
#159597
06/03/2015 10:50 AM
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Joined: Aug 2014
Posts: 2,209
REDHAWK1954
Pooh-Bah
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I am a metallurgist by education and have worked in foundries as a metallurgist, foundry engineer and foundry manager for 39 years.
What I thing is going on here is not a tempering process but a hardening process. I do not know the analysis if the steel in this area of the gun but I would think it would have to be some type of high strength steel. Those will normally harden if heated hot enough and the cooled quickly.
I do not know the temperatures generated by the rapid oxidation of the power in the cylinder but it should be hot enough to do this in a very localized area of the gun. The temperature required to do this is high enough to where it would harden only on the surface of the top strap unless you fired many shots rapidly. That could cause the metal in the top strap to stay hot long enough to keep it from hardening. It could then be a tempering process.
My suggestion for anyone who might be breaking in a new 357 maximum would be to fire the gun 25-50 times one shot at a time giving the gun time to cool between shoots. This should help to harden the top strap. You may still get some cutting in the first few shots but it should be less than if you fired the gun as you normally would.
This process should help to harden the surface of the top strap and not change the properties of the bulk of the top strap.
I have never owned a 357 maximum so I have never followed this process but in theory it should work.
Michael Joe Moore
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Re: Ruger .357 Maximum
[Re: REDHAWK1954]
#159598
06/03/2015 11:13 AM
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Joined: May 2015
Posts: 95
Coogs
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Michael, appreciate the input! Once again, not a metallurgist, but now I know how to spell it, I am assuming I was on the right track, tempering and/or hardening, I guess I was just using the wrong choice of words, and by definition what is going on with the top strap cutting. Thanks again, Coogs.
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