If you will re-read my post, you'll have to admit that no one actually tried to determine anything for you specifically. I said a man most likely will have to be in one camp or another, it's a rare man that can be in both. If you state here that all of the shots that you have made hunting, these shots that you say some would call irresponsible, have been successful and that they have not resulted in any wounded, lost game, I will believe you.

If , however, these extreme shots you're so proud of have resulted in wounded lost animals from time to time, then I reserve the right to personally continue to consider such practices irresponsible, unethical and born of an immaturity founded on arrogance.

You may hold fiercely to the right to do as you please, but you cant turn around at the exact same time and berate those who exercise their own right to dare express a personal opinion regarding those actions of yours. You cant have it both ways.

Its a discussion of opposing views. Relax and discuss

What he said ^^^

Just to clear the air, I am actually rather relaxed and honestly trying to discuss. The unfortunate downfall of the internet is that one cannot determine "tone of voice". So, if I came off as argumentative, my apologies.

Next, I was only addressing the portion of your post that I quoted.

"Able to attempt it" and "should attempt it" are two different things.

And in doing so, I was attempting to express that it is the job of the individual to ascertain whether they should or should not attempt a certain shot. And, we all understand that every situation is different. My "issue" is with blanket statements that someone should not take a shot regardless.

I've never shot a deer with a .357 Mag. It is just the example being used in this thread, it would seem. I may never shoot a deer with a .357 Mag, though I'd like to this year. And nothing says that I would ever attempt a 200 yard shot with said chambering. But, the ballistics are there. That has been proven. Environmental conditions, external circumstances, and shooter ability play in on the rest.

There will obviously continue to be two sides to the argument. I doubt anyone will give. We are all entitled to our opinion, obviously. But, that's just the thing. We are all entitled to our opinion. You. Me.

I'm not telling others that they have to take a shot beyond their ability or the ability of their equipment. But, there are some telling me (whoever) that the SHOULDN't take a shot they & their equipment are able to accomplish. So, it does seem a bit lopsided.

I'm not saying "Do", yet others are saying "Don't".. See what I mean?

As to your other portion, no. I have been fortunate enough to have never lost a game animal with a handgun. But then, I am rather meticulous with my shots, or try to be. So, while you might think I am flippant and errant with my rounds.......I'm actually rather anal.

I'm not mad at anyone. I just don't understand the animosity in general to folks that "push the envelope" when that is kinda sorta what handgun hunting is all about. Unless one sticks with point blank ranges, I guess.

Yes, I am here to discuss. Pardon the inability to properly convey through text.

Well. More proof in a handgun hunting thread for the nay Sayers.

Proof of what?

Ernie shot a pronghorn at almost 200 yards with a 357 FrankenRuger. They had been debating the merits of hunting with a 357 at that distance.

Thanks for clarifying. The post I quoted wasn't clear to me.

What I don't understand here is the idea that you have done something new. Irresponsible, yes but nothing new or groundbreaking. You've created a six shot Contender (minus 200fps) by adding an overly long barrel to a revolver in a marginal chambering to get original .357 ballistics and are marketing this "floating barrel" nonsense as a solution to some non-existent problem. You're still 600fps short of the .357Max.



As a "naysayer", if you think that hunting big game with a .38Spl (158gr at 900fps), while compensating for 50" of drop constitutes responsible handgun hunting, don't let me stop you. Speaking of "science", I tested the 158gr XTP in SIMTEST ballistic media. Here's what it does at .38Spl levels, almost nothing and it only penetrated an abysmal 3". This is what you're hitting that 200yd antelope with. All rhetoric about ability aside, do you really think this is a good idea? I don't.



The 1250fps maximum load of 16.0gr H110 went deeper at 7" and expanded well.



By contrast, the .44cal 300gr went 9" and expanded like so, second from the left. For comparison's sake, the 355gr WLN on the far right, that I used on the longhorn bull, went 24".

it was a double shoulder shot....so I'm guessing...I wasn't there...but Im thinking the lope was a wee bit thicker than 3"

bullet was visible on the far side of the opposite shoulder....I uploaded enough pics here for someone to get the idea...Im sure ernie will do a write up when he is done.

i got the pics out of order but good enough........

Looks like clipped a pulmonolary artery. Lucky. Gotta a pic of the bullet?

I posted all I have. I'm guessing when the bone fragged it clipped a lot. I like shoulder shots. They don't go far.

Not a animal I took. So I can only talk second hand about it.

My farthest was 220...last year....

I always get pics if in and outs and the bullet. Lucky is as lucky does. Fet some uncut videos next time. Id love to see them.

Why would u do that to a 357. Why not a real hunting caliber if thats what ya so choose.

we do them in 44 and 45 on the red hawk as well...but with the customer experience with the 357 version from 6-10" barrels...average is 8"....and ranges from 50-200 yards...on both hogs and deer...and now on a lope...the proofs in the pudding.

would a 44 make them any more dead? Everything....no matter the caliber boils down to shot placement.

Its just rifle concepts applied to a handgun....quite simple and well proven science accepted as fact in the rifle world.....to think the same wouldn't apply to a handgun....well....is nonsense.





the first 12 down the tube on this one test fired today shipping to another customer...first round is high..settled the bag...yes thats 12...240 sierra over IMR4227

At what range?

thats just 50 yards.

thats as far as i test them before I ship them unless the customer asks for something more. I just mount the shop scope...use those standard nothing special handloads and let them fly.

If it groups well there..I know someone doing their part in the loading dept and if their good on their shooting skills all will be good...end goal is MOA or better at 100. That would make that mark....well not with shot one there settling the bag...

When ya say 45 ya mean 454?

Haven't done one in 454

357, 41, 44, 45 colt so far

And just 1 22lr

Now as far as the antelope, yes it was done, yes it was dead, but there was a big lack of damage as u can see showing the lungs. If wind changes and the bullet places 3" back u dont hit that artery and id bet dollars to donuts that that antelope is long gone and found dead later. If there was ample lung damage id concede your point but we dont even know how the bullet performed. Ive worked alot of traumas where the patient survived a gunshot wound to thw lungs with a hollow point that didnt expand at considereably closer range and much higher velocity that survived hours of transport and time before reaching surgery. Ive worked none that survived a bullet of any type to a large artery. In medicine we call it luck. We call it that in hunting as well

That said. Good shot and i take nothing away from bullet placement.

Whole lot of luck going around I guess

The guy hunting with ernie just took one with the same gun a hour or so ago at 154 yards. A doe deer I think. I'm sure they will post details.

And I'm sure I'll get feedback from a dozen or more east coast hunters with these again this year like last year. The east coast seasons start in a few weeks. We shall see.

Know your conditions, your gun, and your capabilities. If the shooter can read and dope the wind all is good on that topic.

i killed a cow elk with a 240gr xtp at 90 yards with iron sights once, the cow died. The bullet didnt perform as advertised and i plain got lucky. I dont mind admitting it. My point is i think its important to be honest with our equipment and operate it responsibly. Losing game is a sure way to have limitations placed on our hunting. Same way i feel about bowhunters shooting animals with a compound at 80 yards. I know two ranches that dont allow bowhunting due to that. Im reports will pour in with dead deer with a 357 mag at incredibly far distances and we probably wont hear about any failures bc that is what this industry is plagued with a feeling of failure if we admit our own failures which is why i post the good, the bad, and the ugly so others dont fall into my pitfalls. II say this confidently bc ive seen well hit animals shot in the right spot with much more powerful calibers and see them fail. Heck, i had it out with a bullet maker on another forum for the poor performance of a solid on a 60lb axis doe with a 41 mag at 50 yards. I have video evidence of a good hit and the deer died a mile later. So better, more powerful calibers fail at close distances and somehow we have a 100% success rate at ranges that are at best mildly irresponsible with a 357 . Im sorry but ill fight against promoting that. Promoting the accuracy of your guns. Youve proven that!

Those same arguments against come up for the long range rifle hunting people/shows. And I'm talking extended long range....stuff over let's say 800 yards like you see on these long range hunting shows.

In the end it's the individuals choice on what they do.

I hold nothing against the guys who shoot extended long range on game. That's their goal and I'm sure they practice to get there.

I hunt with all kinds of wheel guns. Mainly iron sighted guns. In various calibers. My two go to calibers are 357 and 44. But I have used weaker and stronger rounds. And I have pushed the distance with irons as well.

The FR was just an experiment to see what worked and what gave best accuracy. The ugly thing was never intended to be built for sale. After I started shooting vermin at 400ish yards with it successfully that original goal was changed by a few customers.

One must remember. No two animals react the same way to any shot. One must look at many to make an educated guess/decision since there are so many variables.

I haven't had time to give the full story. Wrote this up late last night, early this morning.
The facts are the facts, whether you like/agree with them or not.

I made up my mind what I was going to use for Wyoming deer and antelope this year about a week before I would hunt. My 357 Magnum Ruger GP-100?AKA Franken-Ruger had only killed steel out to 500 yards. In fact, I had not shot it since that time. I knew I couldn?t use the 170 grain Sierra Tournament Master bullet that I had a 100 or so rounds loaded.
After seeking the advice of several, I chose Hornady ammo, using the 158 grain XTP Hollow Point (.206 BC).
Muzzle velocity is 1471 from my 15? barrel.
The barrel is long on this, since it was special purposed for the 500 yard goal.
For hunting I would probably go with an 8-10, if I did it all over again.
But this sucker shoots so good, I don?t want to change anything on it. Dan Ekstrom, a good friend, zeroed it at 100 yards, and at the same time shot his smallest group ever with a revolver ? 1.5? from the seated position using Bog-Gear tripod and the PSR top. He really likes that 357 Mag FR, to the point of being giddy.

At 150 yards the impact velocity where I hunt antelope is 1161 fps, 175 yards=1124fps, 200 yards=1090fps, 225 yards=1061fps, and at 250 yards the impact velocity is 1035fps.
So at 189 yards, the impact velocity is approximately 1100fps.

It takes 16 MOA for a 250 yard shot and 10 MOA for a 200 yard shot with my 357 Mag FR.
As a comparison, it takes 16.25 MOA for my 6.5 WSM XP-100 for an 825 yard shot.
A 5mph full value wind at 200 yards with my 357 FR drifts 6.4 inches.
A 5mph full value wind at 200 yards with my 6.5 WSM drifts .4 of an inch.
My 158 XTP drifts 6 inches more than my 130 grain Berger.

At 200 yards on game, I have never been concerned about a 5mph wind (until this week), while a 5mph wind at 200 is something I need to adjust for with my 357 Mag!
This is where I made my big mistake on my buck antelope.
My ?wind brain? was switched to the ?off position? when I was preparing to shoot my buck antelope.
Like I said previously, a 5mph wind is nothing in my hunting world.
I went through all of my other checklists to make sure, I was good to go, except wind correction. Full details at the bottom.

The 158 grain XTP Hollow Point is designed to work in the velocity range from 700-1400 fps.
http://www.hornady.com/assets/files/catalog/2009/19-22_bullets_handgun.pdf
Just for giggles, an Impact Velocity of 700 fps is just beyond 800 yards. I know no one is going hunt game at over 800 yards with this bullet, yet it is designed to work at 700 fps.
From Hornady, they say their bullet will work down to 700 fps.

The working range of impact velocities is a HUGE advantage for the types of use I have been putting my FR through, and to date this bullet has been exemplary on two deer (40-50 yards frontal shot, and 154 yards [not my kill] broadside) and one antelope (broadside double shoulder shot 189 yards).

Let?s talk about accuracy of this platform. When you have revolver capable of shooting a sub MOA group at 500 yards you have something special. This Franken Ruger is capable of that.
When you can consistently make hits at 200 and 250 yards on steel with shots only a couple inches apart while sitting on the ground and using Bog-Gear-I?m a happy camper. The scope is a Leupold 2-8 VX-3 (1/4 MOA clicks) and it has more internal MOA than any other LER scope. I added 40 MOA through the Burris Signature Zee Rings to boot when preparing for my 500 yard challenge. Dialing to shoot is something I do all the time. Using drop charts is something I do on a regular basis. I use high quality Laser Rangefinders, so I can know my exact distance-not a big deal here.

The revolver is capable, my field rest is capable, the ammo is capable, and the scope is capable. This leaves the variable of the shooter.
Sometimes he is capable, and other times he is not. Isn?t this true of any type of hunting?
Are 357 magnums capable of cleanly killing past 50 yards, 100, yards, 150 yards, 200 yards, and 250 yards.
To date, I can personally say, ?Yes? to 189 yards.
The real proof of a bullet is what it actually does on game, not test gelatin, newspaper or water jugs.
These other things can be good references, and be good for comparing.
But, nothing is better than tissue and bone. It is the true test.
That being said, I am not claiming these few kills are the all in all, but it is a good start, combined with some other data coming from guys who are using 357 FR?s and taking game out to about 150 yards on more than one occasion with good results.
I am not saying, you should use one to hunt with.
I am not saying you should hunt at distance with a revolver.

Now let?s get to the shot. We had made a long stalk, and the two bedded bucks had no clue we were there. We were on a small saddle with a small hill to our right.
The buck I was shooting at was not broadside, but partially facing away from me or quartering away with his head to my right. I was facing south and he was facing southwest. At the shot, I expected him to go down, but instead he got up. I saw, or thought I saw and impact behind him, and I asked if I shot high or Dan told me I shot high (can?t remember which). High was the call, and I trusted the call. I trust my spotter, and Dan does a good job. Both bucks were up now, but not sure where the threat came from, I pulled the hammer back, and aimed low from the call, and my shot went exactly where I was aiming from a vertical standpoint.
My mind was racing, trying to figure out what was going on.
At the same time both bucks began to slowly trot off to our right. I immediately grabbed my Bog-Gear and Franken-Ruger and ran to the right, got on top of the hill, and set up for shot # 3 if I get one.
What we did not recognize at the moment was this: First shot was a hit, with the vertical being spot on, BUT as I have noted already, I was not holding off or dialing for wind. Shot one hit the front of the shoulder, and exited about the middle of the neck (Remember he was quartering away from me on the first shot). Shot #2 hit him also. I aimed low because we thought my first shot was high, and the second shot took hide off of the front of his leg.
So far, two shots. First one probably would have killed him. Blood was filling up in the front of his chest cavity (we didn?t know this at the time).
IF, IF, IF I would have accounted for wind, it would have been one and done at 247 yards.
But that is not what happened. This has been burning on me since Monday.
I was told I needed to aim high for shot #3, and I shot high and this time I clearly saw my impact.
NOW, I knew where to aim. From the time of the first two shots at 247 yards, as they moved to the right, they were now at 189 yards, and he is broadside now. Right after the third shot, I pulled the hammer back, I had not adjusted from my 247 yard dope, but I knew where my last shot was, and just used the reticle. I knew he was dead now. All of this time. I had been aiming for a behind the shoulder shot. I wasn?t trying for a shoulder shot. Dropped him where he stood.
My mind was still racing over the events of the last 30 seconds or so. Then Dan, says, ?You shot him in the neck (speaking about my last shot).? I?m thinking to myself, ?No way!? as I knew where I had been holding, but I could see blood all over his neck. I was not happy, but he was down.

When we went down to him, Dan noticed the blood spray from the last shot was about 10 feet long. He couldn?t believe a handgun bullet could do that at 189 yards from a double shoulder shot, and he was right.
What told the story was the autopsy. My two impacts on his shoulder were about 2? inches apart from each other, exactly side by side. One was from the first shot, that exited out his neck (The first shot), and the second one (Shot #4), basically centered (maybe a tad forward) on his shoulder, went through both shoulders, and broke a lot of bone on both sides, especially the off side. Part of the bullet was just under the hide on the offside. You can see it in the picture.
When I hit him with the double shoulder shot, the pooling blood from shot #1 exited his mouth and his neck. The spray width and length was impressive.

Folks, these are the facts. I was not nervous about this shot. I was pleased about our stalk and knew he was within my capability and the FR?s capability. I expected there to be one shot. I was sure I was going to kill him with one shot-I was wrong. Because I stayed on it, there was a good ending, teachable moments, and seeing that XTP wreak havoc was very pleasing.
The field rest was sufficient, the gun was sufficient, and the ammo was sufficient, the rest of my shooting skill set was sufficient, but the wind part of my brain was not.
I will not forget those 30 seconds. It has humbled me and taught me.
Would I attempt another 250 yard shot all over again in the same conditions?
Yes, in a heartbeat I would. I promise you though, I would be checking the wind.

Never thought about video.
Someone had to pull teeth just to get the pictures I took. I wanted to hurry up and go after a whitetail.
The bullet performance was completely pleasing for me.

Bullet, what was left of it on the offside of the shoulder, just under the skin of the meat.

Rifle concepts don't apply to revolvers and to believe so is to display a basic misunderstanding of revolver ballistics and wounding. A 14" barrel doesn't make a revolver into a specialty pistol chambered in a rifle cartridge.



And yet, it doesn't even open at .38Spl +P velocities. Say what you want about testing media, SIMTEST is tougher than your average critter. So if it doesn't expand in it, it's not going to expand in an antelope. Penetration in tissue is going to be roughly double what we see in SIMTEST. Seems to me th at a lot of luck was involved and that if bone had not been struck, with fragments becoming secondary projectiles, we wouldn't be having this conversation because a wounded antelope would've run off, never to be seen again. Or are you going to have some truth in your reporting and let us know about your failures?



Somehow I doubt it but Chris claims his "shooting system" is better than lineboring so who knows??? I've talked to a couple gunsmiths that just sort of chuckle at the whole concept.


This is not about accuracy or ability. It's about whether or not the bullet has enough behind it to cleanly do the job it's tasked to do, with enough margin for error that the result will be positive even if all other factors are not perfect. Not what we can do but what we should do. It's about what is and isn't ethical and responsible. IMHO, this is neither. The fact that shots were missed, a spotter was required to call those misses and it took multiple shots tells me it shouldn't have been attempted at all. We're lobbing bullets at game animals now? Actually, from the guns to the BOG gear "field rest", the stupid long ranges, the entire approach to this reeks of prairie dog shooting. Not handgun "hunting" of a game animal. It was a stunt, it doesn't represent the sport well and it 'should' be condemned by all. Two basic rules of hunting were broken. Use enough gun and get close enough.

ernie, thanks for the photo. i wouldn't be comfortable with shards of bullets, just my opinion. at that velocity, what woulda happened if you shot that bullet at 20 yards?

You are welcome.
I have simply posted what happened.
After it went through both shoulders and wrecked him completely as the pics show I am not to worried about what was left of the bullet at the edge of the offside of the shoulder.
The meat report was loud to me.
When a bullet goes through that much bone, drops him on the spot (Talking performance of the bullet on flesh and bone) and he dies quickly, I don't see that as a failure.

I have used hard cast bullets in my FA 454 on mule deer and antelope. They were both double lung shots, so bone didn't help with the killing.
Even though I had exit wounds with both of them, I would prefer a wrecking ball effect of what I witnessed on this buck and two whitetails this week.
Since I have not double shoulder shot deer or antelope at 20 yards with this handgun/ammo combo, I can't say what it would do (since I haven't done it), but I would do it with confidence.
It may not make it to the off side shoulder, but hit the first shoulder and shredded the heart lungs...dead is dead.
Or simply since it is only 20 yards, just simply double lung him. Aiming at a different location on the animal at in your face distances is not a issue for me to do. Not worried about wind moving me off my aiming point at that range

Ernie & Hoggin , Wow,, The two of you sure kicked the white face hornet's nest!! I applaud all of the R&D along w/ good game pics. I don't have the varied game experience that most posters have,as I only dabble in PA deer & blackies. Throw some years of farm animal slaughter & small game w/ varmints in & that's it for me. SO , I relish discussion of this variety.

its a good discussion and since u can't tell tone on the internet it needs to be pointed out that it is a discussion. all the what if's are things we should be discussion to keep in the back of our mind. what can't be doubted is the great bullet placement. excellent job guys!!!

cont35bb,
Welcome to the farm. I'm an old farm boy myself. Black Angus cattle, winter wheat, with a little soy beans, and alfalfa thrown in. You are welcome. Ask any question you want.
Never hunted a blackie yet.

Ernie , thanks for the welcome ! It's a privilege to snoop around here. Employment has kept me away from the normal fall family get togethers the last few seasons. When between job postings has me benched in the summer, I ply my hand at woodchuck cleanup. A local farmer only allows .22RF, so that's what I use along with 22Mag & .22Hornet downloaded to mag velocity. It has been a real education in RF performance & its hunting not shooting ! My arthritic knees & hips tell me so. The area I live in is skirting the town of State College, home of Penn State University . As such this farm is also on the fringes, and it is bordered on three sides by developments. Shots have to be well thought out. I've tested several old standards along w/ new offerings in the RF line. I try to avoid any passthroughs that may richochet and if I miss the same applies. Subsonic ammo for inside Safety Zones (w/written permission)A few taken w/ various revolvers but most are taken with the TC Contender and four dedicated rifles that meet the accuracy standard. If the Doc clears me, I'll miss big game season again this year unless the elections hold some jobs up that keep me benched. Hopefully in the future I'll have a suppressor to deal with the evildoers within earshot of some homes. Farmer says "what they don't know ,won't hurt them". Later on then,,, cont35bb

I would broach that you tender your declaration of what is or isn't "ethical.
That is a slippery slope on a board with so broad a spectrum in regards to shooting instruments, "hunting" methods, and "game" taken.
Nonacceptance of anything outside your box of familiarity does and will continue to quench the fire of future hunters, members, and shooting enthusiasts.
I myself was and continue to be met with trepidation and distrust on this board because I don't fit into the old school revolver/cast/up close/offhand train of thought. I push limits and question dogma.

I have read on several occasions from the revered members of this forum of missed placed or bad shots being made and the necessity for several follow up shots. Take a recent "cow shoot" for example.
Wait, did I just call it a "cow shoot"? There's that "ethics", "hunting", and "game" conundrum.
From a board so inundated with the acceptance of game farms where animals are bought, relocated, fed, bred, and made dead for sport and money to even APPROACH the subject of "ethics". Then question if another's free range hunting activity "represents the sport well"? Boggles my mind.
I don't care if you buy Wilber at an auction, turn him loose in the fenced back 40, feed him till fat and happy. Then, sell him to the highest bidder to plug full of .50cal holes from a custom revolver, pat him on the back and say, "Great shooting, Tex!" Knock your sweet self out. Whatever makes you feel kinda funny. Like the rope in gym class. I'm happy for you.
Just don't question my method and tools for fair chase, free range "hunting". In other words........."Don't piss down MY back and tell me it's raining."

I support your right to shoot who, what, when, where, why, and how you want to do so in a legal manner. I expect you to do the same for me. THAT is how we grow this sport. THAT is how we gain new members. THAT is how we build fellowship.

If you never push the envelope and try new things........or allow others to do so as well.........you will look around and wonder why your forum is so small, gets so few hits, and is confined to the same folks talking about the same things......day......after day.....after day. Oh wait, you already do.

I like this place. I really do. But, there are quite a few closed minded people here and that is unfortunate.

Am I gonna shoot at an antelope at 250 yards with a .357 Mag? Nope. Am I gonna buy into the Franken-Ruger concept? Nope. Am I gonna pay money to shoot a fenced in animal off a game farm? Nope.

But, I'll support any one of you that wants to do so and you're a daisy if you do.

I don't like Chris any more than you do. But, I still think you need to lighten up on the guy. He's an entrepreneur running his own business. Trying new things, making a little money at it, supporting his family, working hard, and promoting the sport YOU love!!!! So maybe you ought to cut him a little slack. He ain't hurting you or your sport anymore than you shooting a cow off a ranch.

Just enjoy the science, the data, the lessons, and experience others share on this forum. Put yourself in a box and the view never changes.

Ernie provided data, admitted mistakes, and took a game animal via a legal method with fewer shots than some animals on this board from much closer distances.

Just enjoy, Dude. Learn a little. Give up the agenda. Pop smoke and move out.

Same team, my friend. Same team.

And before any of you think I'm hating on game farms and your "sacred cow"...........

James spends a lot of time and money hunting game farms. Shoots a lot of animals. Has a good time. Enjoys his passion. Then, shares it with friends.

That game farm thing ain't my thing. But you know what? James has been kind, supportive, and encouraging to me even though I know MY thing ain't HIS thing as well.

So, I will support and encourage that man right back. He treats me well......I treat him well. Two different parts of the world. Two different methods. But yet, we ain't throwing darts at each other.

I like James and friendly folks like him and a few others are why I'm still hanging out here. Even though some "ignore" me for not seeing things their way.

James is alright in my book. Two different people can still see eye to eye for a passion and sport they both share.

Wow. Thin skin, i get your point but u have to understand u made some assertions i think are misguided.
1) we have discussions about performance about cartridges and their performance. Always have and always will. WE are not thin skinned and many of the pics you saw were a bunch of guys that have had pitched battles on this and many forums about bullets and calibers. We have had throw downs that had threads closed yet hunt together and are friends, good friends. This was as much if a hunt and a bullet test and as coming from illinois, i dont feel some sporting superiority sitting in a stand and sniping deer and making easy shot vs being on foot within 45 yards of an animal that wants to charge as my cousin faced and the charge whitworth had last year! Perhaps with more tests like this we wouldnt have hunters not know what will and wont fail when they plunk down 15000 bucks on a cape buff hunt.

2). I dont dislike anyone here, not in the slightest, but i think that its irresponsible to have lots of large animal kills and not share what failed and what worked. I am intrigued at the guy that builds franken rugers. Cool stuff imho, and just because someone questions range or bullet choice isnt an attack when you have valid examples of failures with similiar situations. Ive always questioned dogma and have had many heated debates bc ive witnessed good friends be in bad situations bc they followed it in the hunting world.


Maybe people have some element of distrust bc u wont show your face?!?!

Having shot over 20 elk, 10 bison, multiple waterbuffalo, that watusi, over 40 oryx now, a cape buff, multiple bear, mt lion, african lion, innumerable hogs and tons of deer i may have a few opinions about what works and what has failed and ive pissed off people on all sides of the issue, but i havent yelled and screamed and just state my observations. I dont shoot a couple deer or other small game and take that couple kills and form an opinion and take a stand. I gave my honest opinion on the antelope kill, not to rip into the hunter. Hes a great shot but i feel theres a better way and a better bullet. Simple as that.

Zee.....who is this no eyed man?!? Well written my friend! I like handgun hunting...all handgun hunting. I like hunting any animals...any legal animals...I shoot 'em in pens and free range. The hunt is what you make it!

As far as James.......well....I guess he's ok.

Trademark, I wasn't referenceing anything you mentioned. I, like you enjoy good ballistic testing and the research thereafter. I don't post my resume or list of feats and accomplishments. I present the information and let it speak for itself.

My post was directed at and only at the portion of the quote and the reference to Chris that I covered.

Nothing more. Nothing less.

As to my face? Believe me, I'm sparing you the experience of such ugliness. You would thank me if you only knew the hideousness.