Hi All,

Was looking to get some info on the old Elmer Keith 173 gr load in 38 brass.

.38 SPECIAL: For use in heavy-framed guns which today exist only as .357 Magnums, the Keith Lyman 173 grain bullet #358429 over 13.5 grains of #2400 with .38 Special brass. This load goes over 1400 fps. from my 8 3/8" Model 27 and is the most accurate load I have found for it. It will still go 1200+ fps. from a 3 1/2" Model 27 and makes an excellent small game load and defensive load.

I ordered some 180 gr Missouri hard cast coated. I tried it in 357 mag but the bullet combo is too long in my Ruger GP100 Match Champion. It cant be set back because of the crimp groove.

I keep reading mixed things on it, some say the new 2400 is much hotter and that, that load was waaaay too hot back then. John Taffin states its an excellent load in the above configuration.

Im trying to get some ACTUAL test done by any members on here, as far as starting load suggestions as well as what type of veocities were attained if possible. Im looking for 1200 ish out of my 4.2 inch for an under 50 yard moderate hunting load

I set up some loads to start at 10.5 grs, well below the 13.5gr. But don't want to test pressures without some input.

Pretty stout
Was shooting like 8.6 gr of 2400 on a 158 JHP and that is a pretty stout 38 load for a K frame.

Why not just load a stoked up 357 case in the 27/28???

Those frames are bullet proof

I have loads for the 357.... The 500 or so 180's I have wont fit in cylinder of my gp100... So I wanted to use em up... The Rugers are the strongest out there so Im not worried about it holding up, Im just trying to find out what is a hot load and what is not. Im getting very mixed answers

After the fire at Hercules in the early '80's, 2400 was indeed changed, and is "hotter" than Elmer's earlier version. I have shot some cast 158's with 13.5 gr. of old 2400 in a .38 special case, and it was damned hot. I never shot heavier bullets with that load, so can't comment. Bear in mind that Elmer and Skeeter used bullets with crimp grooves that allowed them to be loaded "long".
I later switched to 12 gr. with a hard cast 158 & new 2400 in .38 Special cases and it was / is very satisfactory. Still warm.

I don't believe the load you suggest will "blow up" your GP 100, but personally, I would not be inclined to use it except in a FA 83 or T / C. But it's your gun ....

Much thanks... thats what I was looking for.... Its not that I dont trust what John Taffin stated it was just that the load data was dated.

Ill back them down a bit and work from there.

John is my friend, and I find we agree on many, even most, things. He used to like heavier loads than me.

Bear in mind too, that when using 2400 in your .357 or another cartridge, regular primers will lower pressure from Magnum primers. The old timers never used Magnum primers (they didn't exist then), thus their loads reflect this. In his last days Keith commented regarding his famous load of 22 gr.( of old) 2400 with a 240 in the .44 Magnum, that if magnum primers are used with 2400 that the charge should be dropped 1 grain, and if jacketed bullets were used, it should be dropped 1 more grain.

I just got back from the range with some surprising results....

I loaded some 180 gr Missouri Pugnose coated bullets in starline 38 spec brass. The primers are cci 500 small pistol. I never use magnum primers in my 357 or 44 mag.

I dropped the charge to start at 9.0 grains to be on the safe side as you advised,

Thanks again for the info. Id rather crawl up to heavier charges than jump in blind folded.

Here's my results with 2400

9.0 gr 875 fps

9.5 gr 930 fps



With the above 2 loads they were very soft loads with no primer flattening at all. What I was worried about was the smaller case capacity of the 38 case and that I would see a spike. I went back home and loaded 10.0 grs as well as took the original 10.5 gr

10.0 grs 970 fps

10.5 grs 1005 fps

As with the first 2 loads they were very nice to shoot. Not so much on accuracy (about 3" at 25 yards). The same result happened with the primers. Minor flattening with still a good bubble curve on the primer.

Im not sure what to think about edging up in .2 grain increments. I do not feel safe with the original 13.5 gr load nor do I even want the velocities that Taffin recorded. But given the math it seems right on course with his velocities.

I just feel that much like a 22 hornet the pressure spikes can happen with just a small increase.

Im going to try 10.7 10.9 11.1 next and see where I am at.

I think .5 grain increments would be fine.

I agree.

Much thanks guys... Ill post results as I go...