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Re: XTP Jacket Separation - 44 Mag [Re: tradmark] #176384 12/14/2016 6:31 PM
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 Originally Posted By: tradmark
no, hogs that i see mostly posted here are similiar but tougher than deer, but it tells me that you haven't shot really big hogs, which can show up at any time when hog hunting, if you had you would not consider them the same class as deer at all. a 300lb hog is much much bigger tougher critter than any deer. by far. and..........most claimed 300lb hogs are really lucky to break 200lbs, if that, and most 400lb hogs are lucky to break 250lbs at best. down in hondo we had one shot that was so big that it had to be brought in by a front end loader. 4x's the size of any other hog killed. not the same as deer at all. this you should know.


And you know all the hogs I've shot and their size........by what means?

I rate feral hogs as a medium game animal. This has been my experience, regardless their size. Big, little and in the middle.


"To Hell with efficiency, it's performance we want!" - Elmer Keith
Re: XTP Jacket Separation - 44 Mag [Re: Whitworth] #176385 12/14/2016 6:35 PM
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 Originally Posted By: Whitworth
 Originally Posted By: geoexchange
Obviously, the bullet "worked" in all cases, but if I want to hunt larger dangerous game (buffalo, bear, etc.) is it acceptable to stick with my load and the XTP?


From the OP.....



Which is why I quoated Ernie,

"The majority of folks are going to be hunting deer and maybe some hogs.

Bigger animals needing a different bullet...No surprise there!"

The usage of XTPs was referenced regarding his hogs. I think we are all in agreement that bigger game need a stronger bullet.


"To Hell with efficiency, it's performance we want!" - Elmer Keith
Re: XTP Jacket Separation - 44 Mag [Re: Zee] #176386 12/14/2016 6:50 PM
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wow, how could you take anything i ever said to make a judgement about ALL your hogs. i know what i've seen pics of, period. it speaks volumes about experience if you label 100, 200, 300, 400, and 500lb hogs in the same class. if you got the pics, post em. no one here is getting personal and making those judgements. got any DG photos, by all means post em.

this has gotten like a thread on a sportbike forum talking about trackday tires for speeds over 180mph, you are like the guy talking about what works on his harley. great..............where's the DG photos, what'd ya use, as whit clearly posted, that was the OP's original question.

i don't think you will find a single post where anyone has any ideas that xtps shouldn't be used on deer or smallish hogs.

Re: XTP Jacket Separation - 44 Mag [Re: tradmark] #176388 12/14/2016 7:13 PM
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case in point, look at franchise's hogs, then yours....no criticism, condescension, no bashing, but same class? same bullets? i think not.

Re: XTP Jacket Separation - 44 Mag [Re: tradmark] #176394 12/14/2016 8:40 PM
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Nah, the dangerous game in Africa is too rich for my knuckle dragging blood. Only cows I've ever killed were with 12ga to the head for butchering. Even saw one killed with a .380 ACP to the head as well. As much as I hate the .380 ACP........brains are brains.

Pigs? I eradicate them for farmers and ranchers.. Killed a few.

Mostly with small caliber rifles like .223/6x45/.243 with some .308 in there to change things up. Mostly at night. The handgun and archery for pigs is when I have the chance actually do it for play as opposed to work. Which isn't as often as I'd like.

Hell, I've used knives, tire irons, and vehicles to kill them.

I don't post them all as this is a handgun forum and most I just leave laying in the field or haul to the brush. It's work.......but somebody's gotta do it. Twist.....my.....arm. Ha!

:-)

I've killed some big ones. I've killed some small ones. But, if I don't weigh them, I don't exaggerate.

The poster referenced hogs with the XTP and that's what I spoke of in regards to.

I've got a little experience with how they die and what it takes.

I can only speak from what I know and I know medium game of 500 pounds and under. Above that and it's all you guys.


"To Hell with efficiency, it's performance we want!" - Elmer Keith
Re: XTP Jacket Separation - 44 Mag [Re: Zee] #176397 12/14/2016 10:15 PM
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My direct experience is quite limited, however there is one issue which has recently concerned me.

Some years ago I bought a quantity of XTP Mags for the .454 in preparation for my Africa hunt. Now the XTP Mags are stated to be a tougher jacket than the XTPs and indeed that's how they performed. All shots achieved complete penetration and no projectiles were recovered. Indeed the exit wounds suggested that they acted more like solids. It was more or less as I expected.

Now we come to the issue that concerns me, but for which I have no direct knowledge. On many forums I have read over the last year there have been complaints about Hornady components. Everything from jacket separation on projectiles to prematurely split case necks on rifle cases. In many cases the people who have complained have been long time Hornady users but its been recent production which they believe has let them down. We know that for the past several years, there has been a consumer run on everything shooting related. No sooner does it hit the shelves than its sold. Hornady publicly announced that it temporarily discontinued some of its range in order to cope with the demand for the most popular lines. The question is: as part of this process has the standard dropped. Does an XTP made in 2016 have the same jacket alloy and thickness as one made in 2010? Is the bonding process the same? Have short cuts been taken in order to get products to market? When we talk of XTP performance are we talking about the performance we obtained from old stock or new stock? I don't know the answers nor do I have any data, but its an issue of concern.

Re: XTP Jacket Separation - 44 Mag [Re: Walkingthemup] #176398 12/14/2016 10:26 PM
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There is a big difference between the standard jacket and the mag jacket, but the fact that they are not bonded is the real issue. Without a doubt, Hornady of today is NOT what it used to be. I just wasted a lot of money on Hornady Basic Magnum brass...no 2 have the same primer pocket depth. The good news is that there are better bullets being made now.


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Re: XTP Jacket Separation - 44 Mag [Re: tradmark] #176401 12/14/2016 11:33 PM
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 Originally Posted By: tradmark
.....where's the DG photos, what'd ya use, as whit clearly posted, that was the OP's original question.


One of them.

"Am I loading too fast or not fast enough? Is it really a problem that the jacket separated (on pigs)?"

You guys addressed the one about larger animals (buffalo, bear, etc) and I addressed the ones about the XTP velocity and pigs.

So, all his questions got answered in a concise way. Ain't we a helpful lot?



"To Hell with efficiency, it's performance we want!" - Elmer Keith
Re: XTP Jacket Separation - 44 Mag [Re: Zee] #176402 12/14/2016 11:44 PM
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We are helpful! Only five pages to realize we agree👍

Re: XTP Jacket Separation - 44 Mag [Re: tradmark] #176403 12/14/2016 11:55 PM
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 Originally Posted By: tradmark
We are helpful! Only five pages to realize we agree👍


What else we gonna do?!? I already finished knitting your Christmas Sweater. I was bored.


Your socks are next, though.


"To Hell with efficiency, it's performance we want!" - Elmer Keith
Re: XTP Jacket Separation - 44 Mag [Re: Zee] #176405 12/15/2016 1:18 AM
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I hope its a sweater vest. Those are the best

Re: XTP Jacket Separation - 44 Mag [Re: tradmark] #176406 12/15/2016 1:48 AM
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Only the best for you.



"To Hell with efficiency, it's performance we want!" - Elmer Keith
Re: XTP Jacket Separation - 44 Mag [Re: geoexchange] #176407 12/15/2016 2:42 AM
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This has all been very entertaining and yet enlightening. How bout some gas for the fire. Per the OP's description of his two kills, the bullet's lead core exited and left the jacket in the animal. The animals only required the one shot to dispatch, and in the case of the heart shot one, it left a sizeable exit wound. I don't personally think the bullet failed as long as it exited the animal with a majority of it's lead core intact. I wouldn't recommend the 240gr for 300+ pound hogs, but wouldn't hesitate to use one if the opportunity arose while deer hunting.

Re: XTP Jacket Separation - 44 Mag [Re: Zee] #176408 12/15/2016 2:45 AM
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Zee, could you put me down for one of those sweater vests? It reminds me of the Aerosmith album cover for "Pump". Could you get it to me by Christmas eve?

Thanks!!!

Re: XTP Jacket Separation - 44 Mag [Re: Mech 8] #176409 12/15/2016 3:04 AM
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 Originally Posted By: Mech 8
Zee, could you put me down for one of those sweater vests? It reminds me of the Aerosmith album cover for "Pump". Could you get it to me by Christmas eve?

Thanks!!!


I'm collecting the chest hair for it as we speak...........


"To Hell with efficiency, it's performance we want!" - Elmer Keith
Re: XTP Jacket Separation - 44 Mag [Re: Mech 8] #176410 12/15/2016 3:09 AM
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 Originally Posted By: Mech 8
This has all been very entertaining and yet enlightening. How bout some gas for the fire. Per the OP's description of his two kills, the bullet's lead core exited and left the jacket in the animal. The animals only required the one shot to dispatch, and in the case of the heart shot one, it left a sizeable exit wound. I don't personally think the bullet failed as long as it exited the animal with a majority of it's lead core intact. I wouldn't recommend the 240gr for 300+ pound hogs, but wouldn't hesitate to use one if the opportunity arose while deer hunting.


I guess it depends on the shooter's expectation of the bullet. If a cup & core bullet sheds it's jacket every once in awhile on the game I shoot due to bone, extreme angles, or noticeably larger specimen.........I don't lose sleep over it. As long as the animal dies cleanly.........it performed as expected for a cup & core.

If a bonded bullet or partitioned bullet sheds it's core........I don't think it was supposed to do that. We probably have a problem.

Cup and core............there is always the chance. If you don't want or can't afford that chance........get a stronger bullet.


"To Hell with efficiency, it's performance we want!" - Elmer Keith
Re: XTP Jacket Separation - 44 Mag [Re: Zee] #176411 12/15/2016 3:21 AM
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I have shot some very large feral boar with 62 & 64gr Gold Dot bullets out of .223 Remington rifles.

When large bone like the spine or neck vertebrae are struck, I've seen the bullets turned to veritable lead dust inside the pig. Nothing to be found but lead colored "powder"...........in very dead pigs.

Failed? Well, a bonded bullet disintegrated. Technically, it failed. But, I knew it was a light bullet for the job and still used it because.........a bullet in the right place kills things.

I have covered the bed of a truck with pigs of myriad sizes all in a nights work with that bullet. A time or two.



"To Hell with efficiency, it's performance we want!" - Elmer Keith
Re: XTP Jacket Separation - 44 Mag [Re: Zee] #176412 12/15/2016 3:24 AM
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My thoughts as well. Animals have been killed with non jacketed, lead alloy bullets for hundreds of years. Bullets that by today's standards were quite soft and expanded even at relatively low velocities. If the copper or gilding metal skin becomes separated from the dense lead core within the animal, it's behaving like a sabot round from a tank. The outer shell/sabot stays behind, while the dense core punches the hole. What's this about chest hair?

Re: XTP Jacket Separation - 44 Mag [Re: Mech 8] #176413 12/15/2016 3:28 AM
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 Originally Posted By: Mech 8
What's this about chest hair?


You wanted a sweater. What else ya think I make them out of?!?


"To Hell with efficiency, it's performance we want!" - Elmer Keith
Re: XTP Jacket Separation - 44 Mag [Re: Zee] #176414 12/15/2016 3:35 AM
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I'll cherish it always! I certainly hope you didn't clean a whole p/u bed full of hogs. I had three sub 100 pounders in the trap, and my dad said we needed all three for our after Thanksgiving BBQ. I argued that we only needed two. So after I cleaned/butchered all three, I had at least a dozen fleas on me. And you know once you have a flea on you, you always feel fleas on you. I hate hogs!!! They eat my corn, that is for the deer. They root up stuff, and knock over feeders! Sorry, I had a moment.

Re: XTP Jacket Separation - 44 Mag [Re: Mech 8] #176415 12/15/2016 3:51 AM
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 Originally Posted By: Mech 8
I certainly hope you didn't clean a whole p/u bed full of hogs. I had three sub 100 pounders in the trap, and my dad said we needed all three for our after Thanksgiving BBQ. I argued that we only needed two. So after I cleaned/butchered all three, I had at least a dozen fleas on me. And you know once you have a flea on you, you always feel fleas on you. I hate hogs!!! They eat my corn, that is for the deer. They root up stuff, and knock over feeders! Sorry, I had a moment.


Nah, the bodies get loaded, driven off the field to the brush........and dumped in a heap. When I first started doing that, I felt bad. Like it was a waste. I tried giving them away. But, there is only so much free pork can be had.

Dude! Fleas!!!! Suckers are COVERED in them!!! Drives me nuts! Often when I get home, I'm stripping my cloths off as I enter the front door (picture that in your head.............savor it............and moving on), throw them straight in the washer and dive in the shower. Little biting suckers all over me!!!!!

I don't mind most bugs. They taste good and serve a purpose. Fleas...........just piss me off.


"To Hell with efficiency, it's performance we want!" - Elmer Keith
Re: XTP Jacket Separation - 44 Mag [Re: Zee] #176419 12/15/2016 7:19 AM
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Last year my brother took an average Missouri buck with his Super RedHawk 44 using my cast 310 grain WFN-GC bullets. He hit him high the first shot and he stayed on his feet. He kept shooting and had him on the ground in about 20 feet from the first shot. We recovered 2 of the 310 grain cast bullets expanded nicely to my complete surprise. I would have bet that you could not have have kept one of them in a deer except maby shot end to end. You never quit learning.
While near perfect for deer, my thoughts at the time was for tougher game I would need to harden up the alloy a little more.

Between all of us we collectively have a great deal of experiance on bullets. Some of us probably get away with using bullets that are not perfect due to putting the bullets where they belong in the first place.
This has been a good read, with lots of good points being brought up.

Bob


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Re: XTP Jacket Separation - 44 Mag [Re: Bob Roach] #176420 12/15/2016 7:28 AM
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interesting post.....a real eye opener in more ways then one.....
\:\(


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Re: XTP Jacket Separation - 44 Mag [Re: jamesfromjersey] #176427 12/15/2016 11:52 AM
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 Originally Posted By: jamesfromjersey
interesting post.....a real eye opener in more ways then one.....
\:\(


You can say that again.....

As far as core separation is concerned, even if the bullet kills the animal, in my eyes it has failed. In my eyes, you might have gotten lucky that the separation happened the way it did, but will it next time? Too many uncertainties with inconsistent bullet performance. I saw a bunch of different hard casts last October perform in various ways, that left an impression. All killed, but a number of them failed in my opinion. Nothing turns me off more than inconsistency.

For those who didn't see this before, these two 300 grain Mag XTPs (.45 Colt) were shot into a live Red Stag and they didn't perform as advertised in the least. The first one made it through a shoulder but the only piece we found was on the inside of the offside ribcage. The other hit shoulder, folded its nose over and hooked a hard right and still remained on the onside.







The stag only weighed about 350-lbs. Food for thought.

Zee, can I get a sweater vest too? I'll send you the hair (of unknown origin)......

Last edited by Whitworth; 02/09/2017 5:00 PM.

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Re: XTP Jacket Separation - 44 Mag [Re: Whitworth] #176430 12/15/2016 12:34 PM
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You're special. I'll make you a jacket.



"To Hell with efficiency, it's performance we want!" - Elmer Keith
Re: XTP Jacket Separation - 44 Mag [Re: Zee] #176431 12/15/2016 1:55 PM
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Nice! I'll feel special in that coat!


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Re: XTP Jacket Separation - 44 Mag [Re: Whitworth] #176436 12/15/2016 2:31 PM
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That's a serious load of chest hair.

Re: XTP Jacket Separation - 44 Mag [Re: Boot] #176438 12/15/2016 4:35 PM
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ooooh, can ya just save up some moustache trimmings and make it from that? i want the same attention to detail you used on ernie's christmas man-thong you gave him last year!


in all seriousness, i shoot more big stuff than little animals. i frame my thought of bullet performance from the premise "how would this work on a big dangerous animal" you can't predict cup and core separation. when the animal gets big, they don't go down well with that type of bullet separation. i have no qualms about using those xtp's on smaller/mid size game. on oryx, for example, you'll never ever find em. to the OP, for the big dangerous animals you spoke of, the swift, ceb's, barnes busters, punch bullets is the way to go.

Re: XTP Jacket Separation - 44 Mag [Re: tradmark] #176439 12/15/2016 4:52 PM
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I might hunk elk with a revolver and possibly a moose I guess here in the states.
Never intend to hunt dangerous game with a revolver.
IF I did, I would surely do things differently.


Ernie the Un-Tactical
Re: XTP Jacket Separation - 44 Mag [Re: Ernie] #176442 12/15/2016 10:50 PM
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any pistol hunt, for anything is fun, but DG pistol hunting is truly living! you should try it.

Re: XTP Jacket Separation - 44 Mag [Re: KYODE] #176443 12/15/2016 11:11 PM
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 Originally Posted By: KYODE
Gary......just on hogs?..... Or deer also?


We really only know about bullet failures that killed the animal and it was recovered. I've seen 240 XTP's fail miserably on deer too but like I said, it killed the deer and I recovered it. I'm in agreement with Whitworth that a bullet that comes apart fails but others would argue that if killed the animal then it didn't fail. One can only argue with that logic so much. It's sort of like the term, "overkill". I've never seen anything that was overkilled if actually killing it was the objective. I would rather practice with XTP's and hunt with Swifts or Barnes.


You can't wait any longer. Join the NRA and start writing your Congressmen and Senators.
Re: XTP Jacket Separation - 44 Mag [Re: Ernie] #176444 12/15/2016 11:12 PM
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 Originally Posted By: Ernie
I might hunk elk with a revolver and possibly a moose I guess here in the states.
Never intend to hunt dangerous game with a revolver.
IF I did, I would surely do things differently.


You know this but don't discount Moose as being dangerous.


You can't wait any longer. Join the NRA and start writing your Congressmen and Senators.
Re: XTP Jacket Separation - 44 Mag [Re: Gary] #176448 12/16/2016 12:25 AM
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Been following this thread,still wonder why i use the XTP 240grn in my 44 mag. This is the second year I've used the 44, Last year i tracked ALOT of deer mostly shot inside of 50yrds, I feel good hits. Had 1 at 147 according to the LRF, was DRT. Last season I had them loaded a little over max (10%), this year they are at max. so far this season, i flat lined 1 at 115yrds, and tracked the other that was 30yrds...To me, i think I need to slow them down more, or find a bullet that can withstand the capability's of the cartridge....

Re: XTP Jacket Separation - 44 Mag [Re: dogknott] #176449 12/16/2016 12:56 AM
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Here's a question to ponder on...why do people spend hundreds to thousands of dollars on guns and optics, and then try to spend cents on bullets...the bullets you shoot are just as important...plain and simple...if you spend $1,800 on a Freedom Arms, why cry about a bullet that costs 80 cents? Save the money from all the rainbow warrior sweaters and you'll have plenty of bullet money 😂


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Re: XTP Jacket Separation - 44 Mag [Re: Franchise] #176450 12/16/2016 12:57 AM
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They work for me.

Can't speak for anyone else.


"To Hell with efficiency, it's performance we want!" - Elmer Keith
Re: XTP Jacket Separation - 44 Mag [Re: Franchise] #176451 12/16/2016 1:01 AM
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 Originally Posted By: Franchise
Here's a question to ponder on...why do people spend hundreds to thousands of dollars on guns and optics, and then try to spend cents on bullets...the bullets you shoot are just as important...plain and simple...if you spend $1,800 on a Freedom Arms, why cry about a bullet that costs 80 cents? Save the money from all the rainbow warrior sweaters and you'll have plenty of bullet money 😂


More truth there than i can comprehend , Swift here I come...

Re: XTP Jacket Separation - 44 Mag [Re: Whitworth] #176452 12/16/2016 1:02 AM
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 Originally Posted By: Whitworth
 Originally Posted By: jamesfromjersey
interesting post.....a real eye opener in more ways then one.....
\:\(


You can say that again.....

As far as core separation is concerned, even if the bullet kills the animal, in my eyes it has failed. In my eyes, you might have gotten lucky that the separation happened the way it did, but will it next time? Too many uncertainties with inconsistent bullet performance. I saw a bunch of different hard casts last October perform in various ways, that left an impression. All killed, but a number of them failed in my opinion. Nothing turns me off more than inconsistency.

For those who didn't see this before, these two 300 grain Mag XTPs (.45 Colt) were shot into a live Red Stag and they didn't perform as advertised in the least. The first one made it through a shoulder but the only piece we found was on the inside of the offside ribcage. The other hit shoulder, folded its nose over and hooked a hard right and still remained on the onside.







The stag only weighed about 350-lbs. Food for thought.

Zee, can I get a sweater vest too? I'll send you the hair (of unknown origin)......
Whit, what gun were you using, what was the barrel length, and how fast were you pushing it?

Re: XTP Jacket Separation - 44 Mag [Re: racksmasher1] #176454 12/16/2016 1:11 AM
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I would like to get on the back order list for one of those vest"s, I heard the band Village People is looking for new members, lol, good thread!

Re: XTP Jacket Separation - 44 Mag [Re: racksmasher1] #176455 12/16/2016 1:19 AM
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Zee Offline
Shooting Expert
Offline
Shooting Expert
Joined: Mar 2014
Posts: 3,006
That list is growing. Whit is donating hair..........with a few more voluntary (or involuntary) donors,we could go into full production.


"To Hell with efficiency, it's performance we want!" - Elmer Keith
Re: XTP Jacket Separation - 44 Mag [Re: racksmasher1] #176470 12/16/2016 3:12 AM
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 9,836
Whitworth Offline
Shootist
Offline
Shootist
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 9,836
 Originally Posted By: racksmasher1
 Originally Posted By: Whitworth
 Originally Posted By: jamesfromjersey
interesting post.....a real eye opener in more ways then one.....
\:\(


You can say that again.....

As far as core separation is concerned, even if the bullet kills the animal, in my eyes it has failed. In my eyes, you might have gotten lucky that the separation happened the way it did, but will it next time? Too many uncertainties with inconsistent bullet performance. I saw a bunch of different hard casts last October perform in various ways, that left an impression. All killed, but a number of them failed in my opinion. Nothing turns me off more than inconsistency.

For those who didn't see this before, these two 300 grain Mag XTPs (.45 Colt) were shot into a live Red Stag and they didn't perform as advertised in the least. The first one made it through a shoulder but the only piece we found was on the inside of the offside ribcage. The other hit shoulder, folded its nose over and hooked a hard right and still remained on the onside.







The stag only weighed about 350-lbs. Food for thought.

Zee, can I get a sweater vest too? I'll send you the hair (of unknown origin)......
Whit, what gun were you using, what was the barrel length, and how fast were you pushing it?


My buddy was using a 7 1/2-inch Bisley in .45 Colt. I think the bullets were traveling around 1,200 fps at the muzzle. Both tradmark and I were witness to this.


Max Prasac

Semper Fidelis

BIG IRON: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L6aXjMH5C30

Gun Digest TV's Modern Shooter: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nGo-KMpXPpA&t=7s

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