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W296 #181099 05/28/2017 6:57 AM
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yosey12 Offline OP
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I just purchased some 250 gr WFNGC .431 diameter .44 mag bullets from betroth bullets. I have loaded some up with 23 gr of W296. But I have been reading that W296 needs 100% full house loads. The full house load would be 24 grs. Is my load safe in a 45/8 Ruger super blackhawk?

Re: W296 [Re: yosey12] #181100 05/28/2017 1:06 PM
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FA834ME Offline
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If your load is above minimum and below maximum published data you are safe with the usual caveat that each gun is different. I have used that load for many years with no issues in my .44 mag Redhawk. 296 doesn't need 100% loads to be safe. It needs loads at minimum published data to avoid detonation which is a saftey issue for sure. Having said that .. 296 performs close to or at 100% of published data for uniform combustion. 296 performs well up to 100% of published load data but that is where you reach maximum pressure and don't want to exceed the envelope for saftey reasons again. This why you should start at or slightly above the minimum and increase charge in increments watching for pressure signs in YOUR particular gun. The closer you get to the top the less performance increase(velocity) you will achieve. My experience has been with multiple calibers that accuracy and performance are excellent just short of the top charge. I have experimented with loads above the max charge in strong handguns and found that I was in the area of diminishing returns.

Have fun and shoot straight!

Last edited by FA834ME; 05/28/2017 1:09 PM.
Re: W296 [Re: FA834ME] #181101 05/28/2017 1:11 PM
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FA834ME Offline
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I add that the closer you get to the top of the 296 charge the more muzzle flash/blast you will experience. The shorter the barrel the more this becomes a factor. Not a safty issue but not a lot of fun either

Re: W296 [Re: yosey12] #181105 05/28/2017 3:38 PM
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s4s4u Offline
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 Quote:
But I have been reading that W296 needs 100% full house loads.


Not necessarily 100%, but 296 does operate better at the higher end of the spectrum. What does your data state as the minimum load? I generally start at the midpoint and go from there. The thing you don't want to do with H110/W296 is load down. There are better propellants for that purpose such as HS-6.


Rod, too.

Short cuts often lead to long recoveries.
Re: W296 [Re: FA834ME] #181108 05/28/2017 5:22 PM
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cherokeetracker Offline
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I think you would be happier with a load of 2400 and the other thing is to just use common sense with your loads and shooting.
I am glad that you are on here, and ask such a question. That right there, shows GOOD sense.
Your gun and you should be safe with the load you ask about.

W296 and H110 are supposed to be the same powder if both are made in Australia. (if I am understanding correct). Regardless of this info, powders such as these two and Enforcer. I have found as other people have, that there are pressure spikes with charges less than max or close to max. Nothing is going to beat a pressure barrel and a chronograph working together. Since most of us do not have a pressure barrel and setup for each of our handguns we just use a chronograph and watch things such as primers and case extraction. Also we can look at the case measurements. I am talking near the base of the brass. Measure a unfired case. Then fire a Factory cartridge and measure it and then measure your handload in exactly the same spot. .002 larger is getting too much pressure. Remember this is near the base,(inside)where the powder stops. At that height, measure the outside. and Also (usually) you are going to experience some difficulty in extraction.
I have used these powders in several calibers with different bullet weights. Something I have found is that for one, I need to use magnum primers.
Second with some calibers and with some bullet weights I get less than stellar results.
You are using this powder in a 44 mag, and I have found that 2400 is much better suited for this caliber than H110 or W296.

I shoot a 4 5/8 barrel length in my Ruger Bisley (44mag). Is there more muzzle flash? I have not noticed that, like I notice the recoil is greater than with a longer barrel. The one thing to remember is that the unburned powder may spit at you through the gap between the barrel and cylinder, or blast some of it out the end of the barrel, and if the wind is in your face, may even come back at you.
This is just another reason to use that magnum primer.
The other thing is that with some of the powders there is an added feature of "Low Flash". W231 has always had this, as well as some of the newer powders. AA#2 is another. And neither is suitable for your particular application.

Heat Summer temps....... With Ball Powders like W296, H110,& Enforcer. As the temps rise,,,In the 90s and above so will the pressures in the cases and guns. I live in Texas and this happens a lot. I have to switch loads or ammo. Or I can place my ammo in a baggie and put it on ice. This is necessary with Tight Cylinders, and MAX Loads. That is why I shoot different loads for summer and I try to do shooting in the morning. And I try to keep my ammo out of the Sun. Placing it in a hot gun does not help matters either. I am going to add that I have experienced this in rifles also.
See how common sense plays a big part in all this? I do not need to shoot heavy hunting loads in the middle of Summer but I can still enjoy shooting with a lighter load.
Last thing is did you get this recipe from a Handload book? Such as a Hornady bullet and the recipe from a Hornady book? It is important to use the directions from the load books. Why? Because each bullet is different. Some are longer from the crimp to the base and this will increase pressure. This really comes into play with cast bullets since there is not a lot of information on them. So be very careful of internet recipes.
The last thing is don't try to get that magic number that the book states or for that particular recipe, even if your barrel length is the same. Every gun especially "revolvers" will produce different velocities. Tim Sundles is great about publishing velocities from actual guns that he tests. Look at Buffalo Bore Ammo website.
Cylinder gaps, twist rates, worn or new barrels, polished, fire lapped, etc, etc, all make differences. If you do not have a chronograph then by all means get one and use it as often as you can to test velocities in different weather and temperatures. Cold, real cold temps will not be the same as early fall or hot weather, with several powders. We talked a little about this here, in another thread.
I know this was probably too long of a post but all I want to do is help you. Hope you don't have a headache reading all this.
What FA83ME said on the diminishing returns above Max.. Well I like to stay just a little under and be careful because who knows if ones scale or powder throw might be just a smidgen off. Even with all the lawyer stuff and manufacturers publishing safe loads. And the gunmakers using top quality materials I might add,,, Use your head.

Using a 250 grain Bullet for fun, or for a walking around the ranch or farm, and for a milder load, but yet will handle a lot of things. And that is to drop 10 grains of Unique under that 250 grain bullet. You will have a dandy load that will not be over pressure. It is enjoyable too.

Re: W296 [Re: cherokeetracker] #181117 05/29/2017 10:54 AM
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500WE Offline
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Many .44 Mags. will shoot 23 gr. of 296 more accurately than 24 gr. with 240-250 gr, bullets. I have shot many many thousands of such rounds in metallic silhouette competition and hunting, since 1978 in Ruger SBH's, RH's, SRH's DW's, and S&W's and FA's. Its a fine round.

Re: W296 [Re: 500WE] #181122 05/29/2017 2:44 PM
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Agree with the rest of them. Always got the best loads below max. I have shot it for 40 years. Your load is spot on.


"A quiet hit in the right place is better than a loud miss in the wrong place followed by 10 more shots on the run"

I was a handgun hunter, when handgun wasn't cool.....
Re: W296 [Re: 500WE] #181133 05/29/2017 7:39 PM
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billa Offline
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I echo the comments of 500WE. I have been using 23g or 23.5g of H-110/WW296 with 240 grain bullets since the late 70s. I shot R-Int class with this load in a DW44 and a RSB. I shoot it in all of my hunting 44 mags. A terrific load.
I do agree that ammo should not be solar cooked in extreme temp. and sunshine. I live in PA and do not have much of an issue. Most of my hunting is in cold weather.


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Re: W296 [Re: billa] #181146 05/30/2017 3:03 AM
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Muddy Offline
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The only thing I will add to this thread is the danger with down loading 296/H110 is squib loads...not pressure spikes. Loading this powder too light also causes extreme velocity spreads and terrible accuracy.

I much prefer AA#9 or 2400 for the 44 Mag but that's just me.

Dan

Re: W296 [Re: yosey12] #181161 05/31/2017 4:49 AM
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yosey12 Offline OP
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Thank you all for the excellent information. I'm headed to the range this Friday with this load and I'll see how it does.

Re: W296 [Re: yosey12] #181170 05/31/2017 3:57 PM
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Gary Offline
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You should never load light loads using powders like 296 or H110 because they can detonate vs. ignite and that's when you have a problem.


You can't wait any longer. Join the NRA and start writing your Congressmen and Senators.
Re: W296 [Re: Gary] #181348 06/09/2017 9:29 PM
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freedom475 Offline
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 Originally Posted By: Gary
You should never load light loads using powders like 296 or H110 because they can detonate vs. ignite and that's when you have a problem.


Gary I have to correct this with COMPLETE respect for you... This is not a disagreement or opinion..it is an absolute correction!

The detonation of a reduced load of 296/H110 is NOT true information!

You are not the only guy to mention this myth,..even in this one thread!

The men of this forum (ladies?) are some of the most versed folks in the world on handguns and reloading. It's up to us to fix this... not repeat it.

The internet loves to parrot this myth! It is %100 False!! The powder just fails to ignite.

The only problem with reduced loads with H110/W296 powder is that the powder does not burn properly, and you get a squib, aka.., failure to fire, and you get a bullet stuck in your barrel.

This offers a serious situation, and bore obstruction, when the next round is fired!

Personally, I have never had a bullet get past the forcing cone with a 296 squib, so it always "ties" up my revolver...except once with a 22 Raging Hornet..and the next round fired did bulge the barrel pretty badly.

We need to remove this myth about H110/296 from the internet. If we could just post the truth and have it go viral on the net forums, we could end this mis-information for all time..and for everyone, in about 2 weeks!


Mister, why do you carry a 45? "Because Sam Colt don't make a 46."
Re: W296 [Re: freedom475] #181351 06/09/2017 11:12 PM
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s4s4u Offline
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 Quote:
The only problem with reduced loads with H110/W296 powder is that the powder does not burn properly, and you get a squib, aka.., failure to fire, and you get a bullet stuck in your barrel.


Well regardless of the end result the point remains that one should not down load H110 or W296, there are better propellants for that purpose.


Rod, too.

Short cuts often lead to long recoveries.
Re: W296 [Re: s4s4u] #181371 06/11/2017 3:04 PM
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FA834ME Offline
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I agree. My first choice would be 2400 for a reduced load in cases from .44 on up. I am more interested in the comment freedom475 made about downloading 296. I remember warnings about downloading/detonation issues when I started loading 296 30 + years ago. It was never an issue for me since I used 296 to get the maximum performance out of the cartridge I was loading. That is what is was made for and I still use it today. I would hate to think I was operating on bad information and passing it on to a new shooter/reloader. Tomorrow I will contact Winchester and see what they have to say about this. This post is not meant to start an argument. It has promted me to see if I need to relearn something I have accepted as fact for a long time.It's that OCD thing. I need to know . . . . . .

Re: W296 [Re: FA834ME] #181372 06/11/2017 4:28 PM
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freedom475 Offline
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 Originally Posted By: FA834ME
I agree. My first choice would be 2400 for a reduced load in cases from .44 on up. I am more interested in the comment freedom475 made about downloading 296. I remember warnings about downloading/detonation issues when I started loading 296 30 + years ago. Tomorrow I will contact Winchester and see what they have to say about this. This post is not meant to start an argument. It has promted me to see if I need to relearn something I have accepted as fact for a long time.It's that OCD thing. I need to know . . . . . .


I do know that detonation has NEVER been able to be induced in the lab. And if pressure generated from 25 grains of H110 won't break your gun...10 grains sure won't!..stay with me here, this will make sense in a second..I hope? lol

You can't call Winchester, you will have to call Hodgdon... and I highly doubt you will be able to extract much technical data from the lady that answers the phone...but I do look forward to your next post.

I spent some time with the ballistics technician from Western Powders and one really cool thing he taught me was that everything that happens to build pressure in a straight wall pistol case occurs BEFORE the bullet breaks the crimp.

What was most interesting about this teaching, was that John Linebaugh himself, leaned over our shoulders and said "What are you saying!!??, Well this changes everything we have all been lead to believe about H110 and barrel length!"

The look on the patriarch, master gun builders face was encouraging and humbling, to say the least...if he can still learn something new...there might hope for the rest of us!..lol

But the proof was right there in front us with the computer time-to-pressure data sheets.

Many (still) think that we need a long(er) barrel to burn "slower" pistol powder (W296 etc.) This is totally False information.

Any powder that burns after the bullet breaks the crimp, is just on fire. And does NOTHING to increase pressure. You will only build pressure in the case/cylinder...this is why we blow cylinders and top straps off our revolvers, instead of rupturing barrels.
Velocity will increase (to a point) as barrel length increases...but pressure does not.

We really need to have a chronograph to load H110/296 well.
H110/W296 likes pressure of around 32-35K before it settles down and becomes consistent.

You will see data listed as low at 25K but if you chronograph those loads you will see velocity swings of 100-250FPS+ from shot-to-shot.

As you find the powders' "Happy-Place" it will shift to 8-12fps ES in a 44 mag!!! And each gun, primer, case, and bullet may need a little different grain weight.. and so may each new lot of powder, to obtain this.

One of my 44's takes 26 grains of H110 behind a 280gr gas check cast bullet. And another one only take 24 grains behind a 240gr to give me the same single digit ES.

Some folks say they load for accuracy, not fps, but a velocity swing of 150fps is not accurate!! I don't care what your target at 7-25 yards tells you!

If you want to down load a 44...just use Unique. It's bulky enough that double charges are easily identified and the powder works great!
You will be able to load 700-1000, 44 mag rounds per can! And it works in everything from the little 32S&W all the way to the 45-90 Sharps.


Mister, why do you carry a 45? "Because Sam Colt don't make a 46."
Re: W296 [Re: freedom475] #181373 06/11/2017 7:36 PM
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FA834ME Offline
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Your findings with the .44 mag are exactly what I came up with. The chronograph is a must have for reloading. Without it you are using the SWAG method. I used Unique behind a 240 cast bullet for Metalic Sihoutes. Never considered it a reduced .44 mag load. More like a 44 special target load in a 44 case. I have seen the ES tighten up at or close to the top in .44 .454 .357. Been years since I have been there but I used to visit at H.P White Laboratories. Will see if they are still around . . .

Re: W296 [Re: FA834ME] #181382 06/12/2017 2:20 PM
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I know first hand that not enough 296/H-110 will give erratic results and sticky cases.

To the OP, your load is good to go IMHO

Re: W296 [Re: jwp475] #181420 06/15/2017 12:44 AM
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FA834ME Offline
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According to Mr Mike Daly at Hodgdon freedom475 is correct. The "rumor" was started by a gun writer many years ago and stuck. In any event downloading 296/H110 is a BAD idea. Switching to a more suitable powder such as those mentioned is the logical and safe way to go. 296/H110 were designed for Magnum loads.


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