Keith, Taffin, Larry Kelly, JD Jones. I think one of my favorites was Rev. Hal Swiggett. He wrote for NAHC and I studied his writings.

Can't forget Bob Mileck. or Warren Center.

A lot of the kids here and even some of the older members don`t know who he is....Beside`s his book, I have a three ring binder with 31 of his handgun magazine articles that include almost of the the book articles and many that were not included....It took me over 30 years and tons of old gun mags to put this collection together. My problem is who will I leave this to when the time comes... Can`t put a price on this.... Only respect and admiration for "The Man"...

In the modern present day few have the bullet/powder/gun/game knowledge of Doc Rodgers....probably around 15,000 Handgun Kills

What I really like about those early "Pioneers" is that fact that when they hunted with a six gun they did it on their own, usually alone, many times from horse back or a back pack. Many times they just slept in a tent, built their own fires, took a bath in the river, never seen another person for a week, maybe two weeks at a time & packed out their kills on their back.
Sometimes if they were lucky they had horses or maybe an airplane picked them up after several days alone. I know Al Goerg, Elmer Keith, Bob Hagel, & Larry Kelly did it that way. Skeeter hunted mostly the southwest but spent many lonely nights alone hunting Texas & New Mexico, no guide, no bunk house, some one to do their cooking, skinning, wash their clothes, etc. They did all those things on their own, that's real hunting.

The problem is, many people can't do that & that's why I've always said you have to start somewhere, if it's a game preserve or private hunting lodge, go for it. You have to get some hunting experience somewhere & then go for it on your own, that's when you've really arrived.

That's why I've invited so many people over the years to come to Idaho & hunt public land, free ranging, deer, elk, bear, moose, antelope, small game, etc. We've done it on foot, on horseback, flew into the largest primitive area in the lower 48 states & spent days backpacking & sleeping under the stars & everybody except one I've enjoyed. Most all have taken game & quite a few I've invited back, some many times.

Others I've gave advice over the phone or emails to where they could find good deer, elk or bear hunting. I think sharing it has been my way of giving the eastern hunter a bit of what I've taken for granted all my life. Many can't do what I get to do just by walking out the front door.

I've probably had 25 Texans share my campfires, some brought their wives. Moss Cosper of Dodd City, Texas, Dub Carney of Whitesboro, Texas, Merzon Culpepper of Collinsville, Texas, Ed Tressler of Whitesboro, Texas, Jimmy Lillis of Sherman, Texas, Billy Don Culpepper of Houston, Texas, R. C. McAfee of Sherman, Texas just to name a few. Russel Cottle of Oklamhoma, Tyrone Phillips of North Carolina, Sal Vasquez of California, Ken O'Neill of North Carolina, Glenn Swaggart of Kansas,Ernie Bishop of Wyoming, James from Jersey,Jeff Hoover of Maryland, Mike Barranti of Pennsylvania, a Marine Wounded Warrior from California, plus dozens of others.

Sharing a public land hunt with someone who's never hunted anything but eastern style hunting is an eye opener. Many places there is no game at all, you can spend a lot of time just finding an area that holds game. Many people won't tell you anything, if they give up their secrets they are pretty much shooting themselves in the foot compared to private land hunting. You really need to experience both types of hunting to really appreciate what hunting is really all about. Doing it only one way can give you some false ideas about what hunting is all about, I know it did me when I first got stationed it Texas back in the 60's. Wow!! Good hunting to everyone!

Dick

Boy oh boy Dick.... do I sure understand your words about an eastern hunter experiencing the west.... It was "another world" out there for me.
I recently talked with a younger hunter from my area and discussed what`s available on public land in the east versus what can be hunted in the west... No comparison.... Told him that I know westerners who have taken elk within sight of their home....I remember stepping out of a camper in Idaho for an early piss call when I see movement about 100 yards away... What the heck is that??? Get my binos and what do I see but a moose and her calf

.....To me, there is nothing in the deer family that`s as impressive as a big typical mule deer, but can I hunt one east of the Mississippi??? Just an example of what you guys have compared to what I have....

Well said Dick.
We need to be teaching, encouraging, and mentoring those around us.

Exactly Ernie.

From what I can tell most of us do. I love getting people started handgun hunting. I love seeing them realizing what they have been missing.

X2 for Skeeter.
He is the number one reason I am a .357 Maggie madman....

Al Goerg was my first inspiration to handgun hunt. I've read and have Pioneering Handgun Hunting in my library. However 13 years before that (1952) he wrote Pacific and Northwest Hunting. There was a chapter on hunting with a handgun that really talked to me. He will always be special to me.

Al Goerg's book is one I've never been able to connect with. I do think I have some of his old articles though.

cessna, your one of the few who even know of his early book 'Pacific and Northwest Hunting"..This is what I wrote in my article "The other handgun hunting books":Pacific and Northwest Hunting by Al Goerg- 1952: The pic shows this book on top of Pioneering HH...............................

Al Goerg is best known for his extremely rare book entitled "Pioneering Handgun Hunting" but few people know of his 1952 published book called "Pacific and Northwest Hunting".This book deals with hunting in that part of the US and the weapons covered are mainly rifles,however,even in the early fifties Mr.Goreg included a chapter on hunting with a handgun.Here he mentions a handgun he carried,while hunting big game with a rifle,to be used for taking grouse.This turned out to be a small imported .25 caliber semi-auto which has to be the worst possible handgun for taking these birds.However,Al Goerg being the great handgunner he was had some improvements made to the small .25 auto.The front and rear sights were nothing but a groove cut into the top of the slide so he had half of a copper penny soldered in place for the front sight and the rear sight was a folding leaf "V" shaped rifle sight fastened and tightened in with a screw.When the screw was loosened it could be moved for windage adjustment.After many shots and many misses was he able to maintain a steady sight picture, and by only shooting at stationary birds he took every grouse he set those sights on....

I HAVE BEEN OUT OF POCKET AND WAS CATCHING UP ON THIS SITE EARLIER TODAY. I SEE WHERE SOME KIND WORDS HAVE BEEN SAID OF ME. FOR THE RECORD, I HAVE BEEN ON 11 HANDGUN SAFARIS, NOT 13.

FOR SEVERAL REASONS, NONE OF WHICH I NEED STATE HERE, I QUIT SUBMITTING RECORD BOOK ENTRIES TO SCI MANY YEARS AGO, NOR DO I FEEL ANY NEED TO DO SO NOW, BUT I DO NOT MIND IF OTHERS WISH TO RECORD THEIR TROPHIES, TO EACH THEIR OWN.

WE NEED TO BE CAREFUL WITH AWARDS BASED ON HOW MUCH SOMEONE HAS SHOT AS MANY TIMES IT IS AN AWARD EARNED WITH NOT MUCH MORE THAN A FAT WALLET. I HAVE BEEN FORTUNATE THAT I HAVE BEEN ABLE TO EXPERIENCE THE HUNTS I HAVE BUT I KNOW THERE ARE A LOT OF GUYS OUT THERE WHO HAVE SHOT LESS BUT ARE NO LESS, AND MANY BETTER, A HUNTER, SHOT, SPORTSMAN AND/OR OUTDOORSMAN THAN I.

That's the great part of my WT deer thread..Erase all of the paid safaris and paid guided hunts, just get to the bread and butter of handgun hunting. The free and "on your on" experience

Yeah, all the sci awards of hunters of the year are who has the deepest pockets! I respect the guy that gets out and uses skill to kill a doe!

I'd be very cautious of judging people in such ways, based on such superficial criteria.

You are certainly free to judge people because they have more money to spend than you, if that makes you feel better but the content of a man's character has little to do with his bank account. One can make generalizations in both directions but that's not really productive. One also doesn't need money to have an ego to feed. Ahem.

And let's be realistic. Very few people these days are sustenance hunters and of that infinitesimal number, even fewer are doing so with handguns. So let's keep the self righteousness to a minimum.

In other words, let's talk about hunting and leave the stereotypes and character judgments out of it.

I'm with ya one this one.

I understand and respect this statement. I also understand the follow on statements that took place. That said, a record book of any kind is just a record book. It serves as a reference. Granted, there are many, many entries in B&C from which the hunt cost a LOT of money. Hunts that I will never be able to do. And that's ok. But, the hunts are all documented fair chase. And, there are many entries that come from hunts that were not expensive. Whitetail deer, antelope, black tail deer, black bears, caribou. There are entries from hunters that applied and accumulated preference points for years before they did their diy hunts.

I think this record book is a great idea. It just has to about the hunt, the method, and the animal and not the person.

Are they doing it with handguns?

It's interesting the ways people invent to make themselves feel superior to their fellow man.

Just remember while you're looking down your nose at guided hunts and making ignorant generalizations about "rich guys", Elmer Keith made his living as a hunting guide and I'm quite certain that Taffin has been on more than one guided hunt. I'm sure neither would agree with your condemnations.

The idea that the so-called "rich guy" (what does that even mean?) is somehow less of a hunter is absurd. Some of the most hardcore hunters the world has known have been wealthy. Many of them have written well-known tomes of their adventures. Do you really think that the man who works his fingers to the bone to go to medical school to become a doctor, law school to become an attorney or builds his a successful business from nothing is somehow less of a hunter or a man because he has money to spend on his hunting passion? Or that the man with nothing who hunts deer to feed his family is somehow morally superior? Do you not see how divisive these comments are? Sorry but this tells a lot about the person making these judgments and generalizations and none of it is good. Yeah, there are both righteous and undesirable hunters at every socio-economic level. There are "rich guys" who hunt strictly to feed their ego and there are poor folks who poach all year because they don't care about the law. Do we judge all by the few? Or individuals as individuals? It's more prudent to leave the judgments out of it altogether, absent of overwhelming evidence.

I was going to say the same thing to you. YOU obviously do care.



So have the rest of us. Every year for over 30yrs. Do you want a participation trophy?



That may have been what you were thinking but it's not what you said. No, it doesn't make you a hunter but the lack of it doesn't make one superior either. Hunting makes you a hunter, irrespective of how much you spend in the process.



A. Who are you to judge the experience of others and how do you know anyway?

B. So no food is brought home from guided hunts?

C. You seem to be awfully concerned with what others are doing and why. I don't care one way or another. I'm too busy doing my own thing to care what anyone else is doing or why. To use your wording, who cares???



I personally get a lot of satisfaction out of hunting my own property. It is a huge accomplishment just to be able to buy enough land to hunt on. Does that somehow lessen my hunts on that property? Uh, no. Does that make me inferior or superior (morally or otherwise) to someone who hunts public property just to feed his family? No. No measure of inferiority/superiority have anything to do with it. Do I value the experience less? No. Does hunting Africa with a PH lessen that experience? No. Does a western elk hunt through an outfitter, as opposed to hunting on your own on public land lessen the experience? It might but only the individual can decide that. Is the experience of bird hunting lessened by the assistance of dogs? Certainly not. Who looks at it like that anyway? They are all different and have their own appeal.

The whole point here is that denigrating and judging someone just because they have money is no better and no different from doing the same just because they do not have money. While the former may be more socially acceptable in our current political climate they are equally toxic and neither serves a purpose other than to divide people. So who is REALLY pumping their ego here??? This is the problem with judging people. You will often find that you are more guilty than those you accuse.

ENOUGH guys.

Let's move on before this thread gets locked too. Good grief, Gary is going to ban me from starting topics at this rate.

Handgun400, I agree. The fact I hunted Africa in the early 60's before game ranches or concessions does not mean my experience was more genuine than those folks hunting there now. Just different.

I think...I believe....I know we can honor the pioneers and those among us who take it a step further without becoming an elitist group.

Let's just not get caught up in the bickering and bitching. There are enough forces from the outside to keep us solid within. Stay the course.

I really love this forum and everyone here.

Yep...Nuff drama in the world as it is...

AMEN!

The whole truth is, a lot of it is just personal preference. Some like doing it one way, some another & that's never going to change. It's like scopes or iron sights, some of our very best custom pistolsmith's don't even use adjustable sights, preferring to just regulate their gun to one load & live with it. Others want adjustable sights, others want a Dot sight for precision, others want a scope for magnification.

It's all about choices! Another thing, in many places it's illegal to hunt without a guide or PH, you just can't do it. I've been on one guided hunt & that was Africa, can you imagine an American walking the streets of Johannesburg with a gun! Probably wouldn't last very long.

Same way in Alaska, if you hunt Sheep, Grizzly or Brown Bears by law you must have a licensed guide or a first blood relative with you or you can't hunt one of them. Some of this is because of safety & maybe some of it is money, who knows.

How many lower 48 hunters would have a safe & successful hunt in Alaska without a guide hunting any of the above animals, not many. The lack of knowledge, equipment & the ability to get in & out would cost some of them their lives.

For Caribou, Black Bears, Moose, Wolves, etc you don't need a guide & they are more easily reached for the lower 48 hunter on a do it yourself hunt. My buddy Brent & I spent 17 days living out of our backpacks on the south fork of the Kuskokuim River & also the Hartman River hunting the above species & we got them. We also saw many Dall Sheep & a huge Grizzy but no tags so all we could do was look.

Hunting, either with a rifle or handgun is what you make it, alone, with a buddy or in a deer camp where you eat at the table with 10 other guys & sit in a heated blind everyday. Enjoy it for what it is, if you didn't like it you wouldn't be there, right? That's why they make chocolate & vanilla, so you have a choice.



Dick

Dick, Who is that "kid" in the picture?????

Well said, Dick.

Good post

Dick,
There ya go and start making things so reasonable and simple....You shouldn't be so inclusive

Getting lost is a very common thing here in the west, I've found 2 guys that were lost & it was kind of spooky both times. Maybe they found us! As I've mentioned before central Idaho is the largest primitive area in the lower 48 states & if you get lost in there it can cost you your life.

Guys can get spooked, tired, hungry, totally turned around & then they do things that are very unnatural if they were thinking right, they just want OUT!

We were packed many miles up the Selway River in the early 70's & right at dark a guy came wandering into our camp & wanted directions, he was wild eyed & said he was from Michigan. We fed him & told him to stay the night because from what he described his camp was many, many miles away & every inch of it was up hill. He had no flashlight but insisted on leaving.

With just a few minutes of light left he started out up the trail I showed him & that was the end of it. If he walked without stopping he would have made it in about 6-7 hrs.

The other guy was more local but much younger & scared out of his mind even though he was in my buddys wall tent when we found him! When we rode into the camp he saw us & started running towards me & my son, waving his arms & yelling.

He told us he had been there for 2 days & nights & had left his friends from the Wyoming border & got lost, he was a long way from his buddies. He had been sleeping in Tom & Tina's sleeping bags & eating their food but had no idea how to get out of there. There were 3 good trails leading out of the meadow where the camp was set up, he was just too scared to leave the security of that camp site.

I drew him a detailed map of how to get out of there in about 2 hrs of steady walking & there was plenty of water along the way. He was very reluctant to leave & wanted us to take him out. I assured him he could follow the forest service trail all the way to the high way.

After several more minutes of talking he said he would try. I told him if he got lost or scared to come back & he could go out when we went out that evening.

Checking all the trails the guy had walked each of them & taken the time to carve in several Quaken Aspens a message with his name & the date & the fact that he was lost. He gave me his name & phone number & when we got home I called & his wife answered but he wouldn't talk to me, he was too embarrassed. One of his friends was in the hospital from wrecking his dirt bike looking for the guy.

Hunting on your own can be a risk & paying a good guide can be money well spent. He will know the area, the animals, get you in & out & save you a lot of time in hunting new country.
After you get a few "notches" in your gun a do it yourself hunt is as fun as it gets. Just remember, nobody was born doing it.

Dick

Lost???? I got turned around on a 500 acre Boy Scout camp in Pennsylvania... Its real easy to lose your bearing....

Hidden Valley James ????? Use to hunt Peasants there.
Brush was thicker than the hair on the bird dog...

I never get "lost".
Just dazed and confused sometimes....hahahahaha

Lost? Never been lost! Powerfully confused for a month or two, but never lost!

(Quote from the Mountain Men)

Charlie, Rock Hill BS Camp was on east side of PA......

This is a great thread and discussion.
I am a novice handgunner...lots of training with semi-autos and defensive classes and pretty decent in that realm.
Learning the ropes with six-guns and shooting at distances that seem way out there for handguns. That said, I have not killed any big game with a handgun, just a handful of grouse and ground squirrels with a .22. Forums like this, the Single Action forums and the Alaska Outdoors forums are a treasure. It is like going to graduate school to learn to shoot and shoot well.

I have arguably put more lead downrange in the last couple of years because I want to learn to be a great handgun shooter, and someday hunter.

With regards to record books and record keeping. I have a great black bear taken way back in the North Cascades with my best hunting partner. 10 miles, off trail, every scrap meat and the hide/head/paws came out on our backs in one trip. I have a great mountain lion I took in N Idaho with a guide with great hounds. Both are high in the books, but not entered. My wife and I have a dozen plains game critters from S Africa, all "make book" and the paperwork is in a folder, none are entered. That said, I do believe the SCI record book in particular serves a couple of valuable functions. 1) It is one of the most, if not the most complete record of game, habitat and changing populations over time that we have. 2) If a hunter does decide to enter an animal, the fees charged go back into the foundation side of SCI to continue to fund the conservation, education and humanitarian missions of SCI at home and abroad.

Finally, as evidenced in this very thread, it is so very easy for us to decide "our way of hunting" is best and that those who go off in a different direction somehow don't fit our idea of what a hunter is. If we are going to save our hunting heritage and be able to enjoy it ourselves and pass the heritage on, we'd best all get on the same page. Those who want to end hunting are very good at creating divides. So whether we hunt at home, out west, internationally; with handguns, rifles, muzzleloaders, archery tackle; we are all hunters. We all treasure the land and the game. We love our chosen tools and the time it takes to master them.

So, hats off to the hunters. Fall is here and it's time to go outdoors and pursue our passion. Enjoy the fall and embrace all who hear the call to hunt.

Randy
Life Member: SCI, NRA
Past President SCI-Central Washington Chapter