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How Can This Be Justified #184411 10/02/2017 9:33 PM
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TM Offline OP
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Let me start of by saying I'm not bad mouthing the company, just asking a simple question that may not be so simple after all. I was looking at several sites for some factory loaded hard cast ammo. Double Tap, Grizzly and Buffalo Bore were among them. Why does Buffalo Bore charge nearly twice what the others charge for pretty much the same load in the same caliber? I could copy and paste but feel there is no need to since we are all familiar with the given loads, looked mostly at .44 magnum and special. Yes, I'm sure there is a difference, albeit negligible between them but dies it justify almost 2x the price?

Re: How Can This Be Justified [Re: TM] #184427 10/03/2017 3:31 AM
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tradmark Offline
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The only thing i can say is that i have never had a buffalo bore load not run a little above its stated velocity or pull crimp. The others, not so much.

Re: How Can This Be Justified [Re: tradmark] #184441 10/03/2017 2:26 PM
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Whitworth Offline
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 Originally Posted By: tradmark
The only thing i can say is that i have never had a buffalo bore load not run a little above its stated velocity or pull crimp. The others, not so much.


Yeah, it's just first rate ammo. It is spendy but it is of a high quality.


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Re: How Can This Be Justified [Re: Whitworth] #184443 10/03/2017 3:02 PM
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I haven't shot much of the non-copper BB loads, but I do like the Buffalo Barnes loads that are available. Lots of full power and +p loads. I have always found that they meet or beat their advertised velocities with comparable platforms.

They are spendy, but for one-off's or "how would this work?", it's cheaper then loading/developing my self. I found their +p 45-70 with 300gn Barns will do 2050 fps from my encore pistol but it's not fun to shoot so I shouldn't spend time trying to work up a hand load to similar specs.

Re: How Can This Be Justified [Re: Whitworth] #184449 10/04/2017 1:01 AM
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big spruce Offline
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 Originally Posted By: TM
Let me start of by saying I'm not bad mouthing the company, just asking a simple question that may not be so simple after all. I was looking at several sites for some factory loaded hard cast ammo. Double Tap, Grizzly and Buffalo Bore were among them. Why does Buffalo Bore charge nearly twice what the others charge for pretty much the same load in the same caliber? I could copy and paste but feel there is no need to since we are all familiar with the given loads, looked mostly at .44 magnum and special. Yes, I'm sure there is a difference, albeit negligible between them but dies it justify almost 2x the price?


The only difference I have seen is BB is running thing to the absurd side of pressure and I've had several failures with their stuff. Their ammo is most certainly over priced.

 Originally Posted By: Whitworth
 Originally Posted By: tradmark
The only thing i can say is that i have never had a buffalo bore load not run a little above its stated velocity or pull crimp. The others, not so much.


Yeah, it's just first rate ammo. It is spendy but it is of a high quality.


I have had their ammo pull crimp in 44 mag and I have also had issues with the rifle ammo. Just my personal experience speaking here....


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Re: How Can This Be Justified [Re: big spruce] #184455 10/04/2017 12:54 PM
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Whitworth Offline
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Sundles only exceeds SAAMI max pressures where he clearly states he does in plus P applications. I have shot a small truckload of his ammo in a whole slew of handgun calibers (10mm, .44 Mag, .45 Colt, .454 Casull, .480 Ruger, .475 Linebaugh, .500 JRH, .500 Linebaugh, .50 Alsakan, etc.) and have never experienced a crimp pull even in as raucous an application as my old .50 Alaskan revolver. That said, if you had experienced crimp pull, did you raise the issue with Tim Sundles? Not doubting the veracity of your claim (it's happened to me with other brands of ammo that were of a high quality), just wondering if you went to Sundles and told him about it. He's good at making things right.


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Gun Digest TV's Modern Shooter: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nGo-KMpXPpA&t=7s

Re: How Can This Be Justified [Re: TM] #184457 10/04/2017 2:38 PM
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 Quote:
Yes, I'm sure there is a difference, albeit negligible between them but dies it justify almost 2x the price?


Get it if you can I guess. Another example is T/C barrels. MGM makes a quality barrel for about $250, but another maker charges nearly twice that and keeps in business. Do their barrels shoot that much better? Not likely, but some folks are happy to pay for them.


Rod, too.

Short cuts often lead to long recoveries.
Re: How Can This Be Justified [Re: s4s4u] #184467 10/04/2017 8:09 PM
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You might take a look at Underwood Ammo, it's hardcast ammo is pretty good stuff and will match Buffalo Bore performance at an affordable price.

Re: How Can This Be Justified [Re: Dekker] #184470 10/04/2017 11:20 PM
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big spruce Offline
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 Originally Posted By: Whitworth
Sundles only exceeds SAAMI max pressures where he clearly states he does in plus P applications. I have shot a small truckload of his ammo in a whole slew of handgun calibers (10mm, .44 Mag, .45 Colt, .454 Casull, .480 Ruger, .475 Linebaugh, .500 JRH, .500 Linebaugh, .50 Alsakan, etc.) and have never experienced a crimp pull even in as raucous an application as my old .50 Alaskan revolver. That said, if you had experienced crimp pull, did you raise the issue with Tim Sundles? Not doubting the veracity of your claim (it's happened to me with other brands of ammo that were of a high quality), just wondering if you went to Sundles and told him about it. He's good at making things right.


Not going to air it out on an open forum, so I'll leave at "customer service has been sub par in my case". I hope that's fair enough?

 Originally Posted By: Dekker
You might take a look at Underwood Ammo, it's hardcast ammo is pretty good stuff and will match Buffalo Bore performance at an affordable price.


^ This exactly ^ . I just received my shipment of 200 gr loads today for my 10 mm!


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Re: How Can This Be Justified [Re: big spruce] #184474 10/05/2017 12:35 AM
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I love underwood for my 10mm

Re: How Can This Be Justified [Re: tradmark] #184480 10/05/2017 2:41 PM
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 Originally Posted By: tradmark
I love underwood for my 10mm


After reading all of the responses here I looked at Underwood's site yesterday and decided to order a box of .44 magnum and a box of .454, both in hard cast. It's hard to argue their prices, especially when it's nearly 1/2 the price of something that seems to be the same. Never said BB wasn't good stuff, just hard to justify the prices. I'm sure many people can and that is why BB is still producing and selling ammo, in fact I still have 2 boxes from them and all 40 rounds are factory fresh.

Re: How Can This Be Justified [Re: TM] #184481 10/05/2017 4:26 PM
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Interesting topic.
I just read a section of Tools of Titans by Tim Ferris. The section is from an interview w/Marc Andreesen. His response to a question, "What would you put on a billboard?"

Response, "Raise Prices"

His rationale is that too many small companies don't charge enough for a high quality product and then can't cover basic costs of marketing and sales to actually get people to buy the product.

The misconception in his mind is that companies price products low to get people to buy it and then drive volume. Yet over and over companies fail because they cannot meet basic costs of doing business.

Food for thought.

Re: How Can This Be Justified [Re: RandyB] #184485 10/05/2017 8:33 PM
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Holland & Holland`s top brass told the power`s that be over at Freedom Arm`s that their prices were to low for their line of handguns which fits right in with what RandyB say`s above.... However, I am sure there are plenty of FA`s owners who will disagree with H&H`s statement....


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Re: How Can This Be Justified [Re: jamesfromjersey] #184522 10/06/2017 11:42 AM
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TM,,,,, As James and RandyB pointed out, good points about prices, I want to add that when you begin to sell to brick and mortar stores or Big Box Stores, you fall under a different tax structure. The big stores also want a company to take back merchandize that does not sell. Packaging and shipping are other variables.
But getting to the bottom line and that is you ask yourself the 2 important questions, and that is, Is the ammo You purchase accurate in your gun? and Did the Cast bullet lead up your barrel? If all is good, then the only thing is for you to decide is do you want to pay the price for the certain brand. Hope your choice works for you. Let us know.

Re: How Can This Be Justified [Re: cherokeetracker] #184691 10/10/2017 1:12 PM
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98Redline Offline
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Q: Why are their prices so high?

A: Because people are willing to pay them.

That is it in the most simple terms. Supply and demand. If people are willing to pay the BB prices, then they will keep them where they are. If the demand falls off due to pricing, then they will need to lower prices to compensate, however as long as people are willing to pay what they charge either because of reputation, customer service, or performance, then the price will remain where it is.

I prefer to reload my own top end loads, hence other than a couple of boxes of Double Tap, I haven't bough any of the "premium" ammo, however I can run down to Cabela's and pick up BB ammo in just about any major caliber and expect that it will run up in the shake your fillings loose territory.

BB has a brand recognition as a top tier, full boogie ammunition supplier. Many people who are recreational shooters and not gun or reloading enthusiasts know that BB produces ammunition for top end loads and is available at major retailers. Many people have no clue about Underwood, or Double Tap, or Grizzly. They know BB so that is what they buy. It has taken BB quite awhile to develop their reputation, production, and distribution channels, but they are now reaping that reward. Can those other vendors supply the sheer number of rounds per year that BB can? Probably not, at least not any single vendor, so they sell more direct through their website, keep their business a little smaller, don't incur the overhead and can charge less money.

Re: How Can This Be Justified [Re: 98Redline] #184706 10/10/2017 7:51 PM
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 Originally Posted By: 98Redline
Q: Why are their prices so high?

A: Because people are willing to pay them.

That is it in the most simple terms. Supply and demand. If people are willing to pay the BB prices, then they will keep them where they are. If the demand falls off due to pricing, then they will need to lower prices to compensate, however as long as people are willing to pay what they charge either because of reputation, customer service, or performance, then the price will remain where it is.

I prefer to reload my own top end loads, hence other than a couple of boxes of Double Tap, I haven't bough any of the "premium" ammo, however I can run down to Cabela's and pick up BB ammo in just about any major caliber and expect that it will run up in the shake your fillings loose territory.

BB has a brand recognition as a top tier, full boogie ammunition supplier. Many people who are recreational shooters and not gun or reloading enthusiasts know that BB produces ammunition for top end loads and is available at major retailers. Many people have no clue about Underwood, or Double Tap, or Grizzly. They know BB so that is what they buy. It has taken BB quite awhile to develop their reputation, production, and distribution channels, but they are now reaping that reward. Can those other vendors supply the sheer number of rounds per year that BB can? Probably not, at least not any single vendor, so they sell more direct through their website, keep their business a little smaller, don't incur the overhead and can charge less money.


Now that you mention it I have never seen DT or Grizzly in a store, not saying it's not on a shelf somewhere, just not where I live, but I do see Buffalo Bore at Cabela's but the selection is TERRIBLE at that particular Cabela's.


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