a-frame accuracy
#184747
10/11/2017 4:58 AM
|
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 9,715
jamesfromjersey
OP
Shootist
|
OP
Shootist
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 9,715 |
Before we leave the topic of how good Swift A-frame bullets perform on game, I want to show you guys one of my old targets......... Sometime back in 2012 I bought some of Federal`s 454 ammunition that was loaded with a 300gr. A-frame and went to the range, in preperation for a boar hunt, and shot this 100 yard three shot group that measured 1" CxC....Besides being deadly they are also accurate.... Doubt very much I could repeat...The photos also show the boar I shot at around 60 yards with these bullets and the bottom picture shows the exit of one of the 300gr A-frames....
Life member-NRA-SCI Member-HHI #2900-HHASA #067 Colt-Ruger-Freedom Arms-and S&W Collector Assoc.s "I have more guns then I need but not as many as I want" "Handgun hunters HAVE to be good"
|
|
|
Re: a-frame accuracy
[Re: jamesfromjersey]
#184751
10/11/2017 12:26 PM
|
Joined: Nov 2012
Posts: 171
Buck_358
member
|
member
Joined: Nov 2012
Posts: 171 |
Thanks for sharing James Accuracy & terminal performance? Outstanding results! I plan to try the 265?s alongside the Barnes 250x in my BFR-454 this fall. Did that boar travel any distance after the shot?
NRA Patriot Life Endowment HHI #6544
|
|
|
Re: a-frame accuracy
[Re: Buck_358]
#184752
10/11/2017 1:54 PM
|
Joined: Mar 2017
Posts: 189
spinsail
member
|
member
Joined: Mar 2017
Posts: 189 |
James, I apologize if this is off topic but I have read a lot of your stuff and it seems you like both the A Frame and the XTP. I also load both of those but I lack your experience and I would like to know when you choose one and when the other.
|
|
|
Re: a-frame accuracy
[Re: spinsail]
#184767
10/11/2017 4:15 PM
|
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 1,048
wvhitman
old hand
|
old hand
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 1,048 |
I don't want to "step" on James' answer, but I've used a lot of AFrames and XTPs. It's a no contest to me. A Frames are far superior. Right, James?
|
|
|
Re: a-frame accuracy
[Re: wvhitman]
#184775
10/11/2017 4:44 PM
|
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 9,715
jamesfromjersey
OP
Shootist
|
OP
Shootist
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 9,715 |
Buck, He flopped around a bit after the shot when I popped him with a 22 in the knoggin... Spin and Larry, Oh yeaaaa they are superior to the XTP.... A good example of purposely loading an A-frame was the mule deer hunt I took. Nothing to chance... Worked perfectly...Another time was when I knew I was going for a big boar in Tennessee and using my 41mag... When you need consistent expansion and weight retention then the A-frame is the way to go... The XTP is good but the Swift is better.....
Life member-NRA-SCI Member-HHI #2900-HHASA #067 Colt-Ruger-Freedom Arms-and S&W Collector Assoc.s "I have more guns then I need but not as many as I want" "Handgun hunters HAVE to be good"
|
|
|
Re: a-frame accuracy
[Re: jamesfromjersey]
#184781
10/11/2017 6:32 PM
|
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 9,836
Whitworth
Shootist
|
Shootist
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 9,836 |
Swift A-frames.....300 grains .454 Casull. Very accurate. 50 yards I believe. Shot this group at 100 yards with Swift A-frames (Federal .454 load):
|
|
|
Re: a-frame accuracy
[Re: Whitworth]
#184786
10/11/2017 8:22 PM
|
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 5,057
Gary
Distinguished Master
|
Distinguished Master
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 5,057 |
I'm not a fan of XTP's at all. I rarely see one that hasn't shed the jacket & core if it hits anything of substance. The A-frame is the best bullet out there right now IMHO.
You can't wait any longer. Join the NRA and start writing your Congressmen and Senators.
|
|
|
Re: a-frame accuracy
[Re: Whitworth]
#184793
10/11/2017 9:06 PM
|
Joined: Dec 2012
Posts: 207
TM
enthusiast
|
enthusiast
Joined: Dec 2012
Posts: 207 |
Swift A-frames.....300 grains .454 Casull. Very accurate. 50 yards I believe. Shot this group at 100 yards with Swift A-frames (Federal .454 load): Max, didn't you say in your book "Hunting Revolvers" that the .454 Casull and the A-Frame were a match made in heaven?
|
|
|
Re: a-frame accuracy
[Re: Gary]
#184833
10/12/2017 4:51 AM
|
Joined: Jun 2010
Posts: 3,020
tradmark
Shooting Expert
|
Shooting Expert
Joined: Jun 2010
Posts: 3,020 |
I'm not a fan of XTP's at all. I rarely see one that hasn't shed the jacket & core if it hits anything of substance. The A-frame is the best bullet out there right now IMHO. I would agree completely!
|
|
|
Re: a-frame accuracy
[Re: jamesfromjersey]
#184838
10/12/2017 8:07 AM
|
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 4,461
pab1
Distinguished Expert
|
Distinguished Expert
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 4,461 |
Impressive accuracy! Unlike others I've been impressed with XTP Mags from a .454 Casull (on deer sized game) but that accuracy speaks for itself.
Experience is the best teacher, hunger good sauce. Osborne Russell Journal of a Trapper
|
|
|
Re: a-frame accuracy
[Re: pab1]
#184843
10/12/2017 11:52 AM
|
Joined: Aug 2017
Posts: 1,821
45MAN
Pooh-Bah
|
Pooh-Bah
Joined: Aug 2017
Posts: 1,821 |
300 gr. XTP's IN 45 COLT 454 EQUIVALENT LOADS HAVE ALWAYS WORKED WELL FOR ME ON DEER SIZED GAME, AND I EVEN SHOT A HUGE BODIED ELK WITH ONE (HEART SHOT). IN A 1993 SAFARI I WAS SHOOTING A LOT OF IMPALA FOR LEOPARD BAIT I USED THE FA 300 gr. FP AND THE 300 gr. XTP, BOTH AT 454 VELOCITIES, AND THEY KILLED EQUALLY WELL. THE XTP IS NOT NEAR THE BULLET THE A-FRAME IS BUT THE XTP IS ACCURATE, DEADLY AND COSTS LESS THAN THE A-FRAMES, BUT TODAY I WOULD NOT USE IT FOR GAME LARGER THAN DEER.
"ADAPT OR DIE". I USE ALL CAPS, NOT BECAUSE I AM YELLING, BUT BECAUSE IT IS AN OLD HABIT FROM MY ARMY DAYS, PLUS IT IS EASIER TO TYPE AND READ.
|
|
|
Re: a-frame accuracy
[Re: 45MAN]
#184917
10/14/2017 1:53 AM
|
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 9,715
jamesfromjersey
OP
Shootist
|
OP
Shootist
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 9,715 |
Rey, If I`am not mistaken, the 45 caliber 300gr. XTP`s you used in the early `90`s were the double crimp groove type as the 300gr. XTP Mag bullet with the single crimp groove was not yet around. Back then I handloaded both the 250 and 300 grain XTP`s which are now considered for lower velocity 45 Colt loads... I caught hell for running the 250 at 1700+fps in the 454 and tried to explain that the reload info I used for that load came from an early Hornady manual... Think it was #3 or 4 Anyway, I used those bullets to great effect in the field.. Just my $.02.........
Life member-NRA-SCI Member-HHI #2900-HHASA #067 Colt-Ruger-Freedom Arms-and S&W Collector Assoc.s "I have more guns then I need but not as many as I want" "Handgun hunters HAVE to be good"
|
|
|
Re: a-frame accuracy
[Re: jamesfromjersey]
#184920
10/14/2017 11:34 AM
|
Joined: Aug 2017
Posts: 1,821
45MAN
Pooh-Bah
|
Pooh-Bah
Joined: Aug 2017
Posts: 1,821 |
JAMES: BACK THEN THEY WERE REGULAR XTP's AND NOT THE STOUTER XTP MAG. I USED 250 XTP's AT OVER 1,700 fps IN 45 COLT CASES IN MY FA 454's ON A 1991 SAFARI, THEY WERE WAY TOO FANGIBLE FOR USE ON LARGER PLAINS GAME. I HAVE USED THE 300 gr. XTP MAG BULLETS, IN 45 COLT AND 454 BRASS, IN MY FA REVOLVERS @ 1,6XX fps AND THEY ARE DEVASTATING ON DEER. THEY ARE ALSO THE BULLET I MOSTLY USE FOR PRACTICE WITH MY 454 REVOLVERS. I HAVE SOME 300 gr. XTP MAG BULLETS WITH THE DUAL CANNELURE.
"ADAPT OR DIE". I USE ALL CAPS, NOT BECAUSE I AM YELLING, BUT BECAUSE IT IS AN OLD HABIT FROM MY ARMY DAYS, PLUS IT IS EASIER TO TYPE AND READ.
|
|
|
Re: a-frame accuracy
[Re: 45MAN]
#184922
10/14/2017 12:29 PM
|
Joined: Aug 2017
Posts: 1,821
45MAN
Pooh-Bah
|
Pooh-Bah
Joined: Aug 2017
Posts: 1,821 |
JAMES: I CHECKED MY STASH OF 300 gr. .452 XTP MAG BULLETS, THE OLDER ONES CAME WITH 2 CANNELURES, ALL THE NEWER ONES HAVE 1 CANNELURE. MESSING WITH THE CANNELURES, REMINDS ME OF MY WIFE, BACK IN THE DAYS WHEN SHE ALWAYS WANTED TO REARRANGE THE FURNITURE.
"ADAPT OR DIE". I USE ALL CAPS, NOT BECAUSE I AM YELLING, BUT BECAUSE IT IS AN OLD HABIT FROM MY ARMY DAYS, PLUS IT IS EASIER TO TYPE AND READ.
|
|
|
Re: a-frame accuracy
[Re: 45MAN]
#184926
10/14/2017 3:36 PM
|
Joined: Dec 2011
Posts: 607
nytracker
addict
|
addict
Joined: Dec 2011
Posts: 607 |
How do A frames perform on thin skinned deer of average size?
Save liberals from them selves, stich their sphincter closed so they cant talk out their arse
|
|
|
Re: a-frame accuracy
[Re: nytracker]
#184929
10/14/2017 8:20 PM
|
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 9,715
jamesfromjersey
OP
Shootist
|
OP
Shootist
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 9,715 |
Tracker, There is a post on Shooters Bench about the 265 gr Swift and deer.... Some good recommendations there.....
Life member-NRA-SCI Member-HHI #2900-HHASA #067 Colt-Ruger-Freedom Arms-and S&W Collector Assoc.s "I have more guns then I need but not as many as I want" "Handgun hunters HAVE to be good"
|
|
|
Re: a-frame accuracy
[Re: jamesfromjersey]
#184942
10/15/2017 4:55 AM
|
Joined: Jun 2010
Posts: 3,020
tradmark
Shooting Expert
|
Shooting Expert
Joined: Jun 2010
Posts: 3,020 |
They work great and open up and dont shed their jackets and weight. They get tougher as they go up in caliber and weight. I routinely shoot end to end with exits in deer and all angles are on the table. Theyre expensive and they arent required for deer sized game but in my book its great to know ya got everything reliably covered and dont have to worry about bone or angle.
|
|
|
Re: a-frame accuracy
[Re: pab1]
#184953
10/15/2017 2:17 PM
|
Joined: Jul 2010
Posts: 2,276
cfish2
Pooh-Bah
|
Pooh-Bah
Joined: Jul 2010
Posts: 2,276 |
Whit, what base is that on your handgun? I don't like the ruger rings on my 45 colt bisley hunter. Looking for a more secure base.
Life Member NAHC HHI Member #7149 NRA Member
|
|
|
Re: a-frame accuracy
[Re: jamesfromjersey]
#184964
10/15/2017 4:04 PM
|
Joined: Aug 2013
Posts: 161
MrMcPorkchop
member
|
member
Joined: Aug 2013
Posts: 161 |
... I caught hell for running the 250 at 1700+fps in the 454 ... James, I run the 250's to 1,780 fps out of my 45 Colt Carbine. While that is faster than the Hornady recommended top end velocity of 1600 fps, they are pretty close to the 1600 fps at impact. They are very effective at those speeds on deer, usually leaving golf ball diameter exits. They've always held together well and exited deer. I probably wouldn't want to shoot really large game with them, but for black bear or deer I wouldn't hesitate. Out of the rifle I should shoot the 240 XTP Mag but I have so many of the 250's loaded up already, and they shoot less than 1 MOA. Eric.
Choot em!
|
|
|
Re: a-frame accuracy
[Re: MrMcPorkchop]
#184978
10/15/2017 7:37 PM
|
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 9,715
jamesfromjersey
OP
Shootist
|
OP
Shootist
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 9,715 |
Eric, You got me thinking so I opened my Hornady reload manual ( 4th edition ) and looked up the data I used for my FA 454 using their 250gr XTP.. Their Max loads using AA#9, H-110 and 296 run that bullet at 1800fps from a 7 1/2" 454. I used the load a half grain below MAX for a listed MV of 1750fps with my 7 1/2" m-83 Now, if you can`t trust Hornady`s reload info.... who can you trust??? Anyway, this is the load I caught hell for... DAMM, their MAG bullets were not made yet....45Man knows and so do a few more here of what I`am talking about...The manual is dated 1994.... PS.... Eric, I have to ask why you use the heading of "Mr. McPorkchop"??? Sounds GREAT....
Last edited by jamesfromjersey; 10/15/2017 7:47 PM.
Life member-NRA-SCI Member-HHI #2900-HHASA #067 Colt-Ruger-Freedom Arms-and S&W Collector Assoc.s "I have more guns then I need but not as many as I want" "Handgun hunters HAVE to be good"
|
|
|
Re: a-frame accuracy
[Re: jamesfromjersey]
#184987
10/15/2017 9:25 PM
|
Joined: Jul 2010
Posts: 2,276
cfish2
Pooh-Bah
|
Pooh-Bah
Joined: Jul 2010
Posts: 2,276 |
James, going to order the .357 180 a frames for the 357 mag and the 300gr 45 for the 45 colt bisley hunter. Should make for good whitetail and hog ammo.
Life Member NAHC HHI Member #7149 NRA Member
|
|
|
Re: a-frame accuracy
[Re: cfish2]
#185020
10/16/2017 1:41 PM
|
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 9,836
Whitworth
Shootist
|
Shootist
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 9,836 |
Whit, what base is that on your handgun? I don't like the ruger rings on my 45 colt bisley hunter. Looking for a more secure base. That is a Weigand no drill, no tap base that was made specifically for the .454 and .480 Ruger Super Blackhawks with a 6 1/2-inch barrel.
|
|
|
Re: a-frame accuracy
[Re: jamesfromjersey]
#185577
10/27/2017 1:29 AM
|
Joined: Aug 2013
Posts: 161
MrMcPorkchop
member
|
member
Joined: Aug 2013
Posts: 161 |
PS.... Eric, I have to ask why you use the heading of "Mr. McPorkchop"??? Sounds GREAT.... James, Well since you asked nicely, one of my wife's friends was joking one day about some chiseled guy that walked by that was, in her words, "A big hunk of man meat". I told the friend she shouldn't objectify that poor guy, and that she doesn't know what it's like for us fine specimens of utter manliness to walk down the street with women lusting after us... We all had a good laugh because I work a field job that requires long pants long sleeves and boots, so I don't get a ton of sun on my legs, and have a farmers tan, and I used to be a tall slender guy, so not only am I not particularly chiseled, I'm fairly pale when not wearing a shirt or in a pair of shorts. So when my wife's friend finished laughing she said well if he is Mr. ManMeat you must be Mr.McPorkchop, being pale white like a porkchop but like a cheap low quality knockoff McDonald's version that only resembles it in name. Since then the name sort of stuck and my wife calls me that all the time, in a good natured way. I think. Eric.
Choot em!
|
|
|
Re: a-frame accuracy
[Re: MrMcPorkchop]
#185610
10/27/2017 7:26 PM
|
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 9,715
jamesfromjersey
OP
Shootist
|
OP
Shootist
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 9,715 |
Eric, I would have expected nothing less...... Thanks for taking the time...
Life member-NRA-SCI Member-HHI #2900-HHASA #067 Colt-Ruger-Freedom Arms-and S&W Collector Assoc.s "I have more guns then I need but not as many as I want" "Handgun hunters HAVE to be good"
|
|
|
Re: a-frame accuracy
[Re: Gary]
#185699
10/29/2017 4:40 PM
|
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 404
Mikewin
addict
|
addict
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 404 |
In my humble .44 magnum experience, the A-frame is clearly more accurate than the XTP in similar weights and velocities, but much more expensive and the theoretical terminal ballistics (i.e. in wet newsprint) are definitively comparable. I've never used an A-frame on game but have used XTPs many times - on deer-sized game, that is - and they have never failed me. Would not use an XTP on elk or moose though, as they have bones and joints that can be very tough. I'm not a fan of XTP's at all. I rarely see one that hasn't shed the jacket & core if it hits anything of substance. The A-frame is the best bullet out there right now IMHO.
As a European, I prefer my latte in my NRA coffee mug
|
|
|
Re: a-frame accuracy
[Re: jamesfromjersey]
#185702
10/29/2017 6:57 PM
|
Joined: Aug 2013
Posts: 161
MrMcPorkchop
member
|
member
Joined: Aug 2013
Posts: 161 |
Was re-reading this thread this morning while having my coffee and have talked myself into ordering some of the A-Frames for my 357 Mag.
I already have some 158 XTP's loaded up that my GP100 shoots very well, but I'm eager to see how the 180 gr. A-Frames shoot, as I generally prefer heavy for caliber bullets, and the A-Frames look to be a good blend of expansion and penetration based on everyone's success with them.
Eric.
Choot em!
|
|
|
Re: a-frame accuracy
[Re: Mikewin]
#185837
10/31/2017 3:52 AM
|
Joined: Aug 2013
Posts: 161
MrMcPorkchop
member
|
member
Joined: Aug 2013
Posts: 161 |
...Would not use an XTP on elk or moose though, as they have bones and joints that can be very tough... If you're going to use an XTP, and not an A-Frame or Barnes, once you get to game as big and big-boned as elk and moose, I'd strongly recommend using the XTP-MAG. They have a much thicker jacket than the standard XTP and are rated for much higher velocities. Eric.
Choot em!
|
|
|
Re: a-frame accuracy
[Re: MrMcPorkchop]
#185845
10/31/2017 1:45 PM
|
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 9,836
Whitworth
Shootist
|
Shootist
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 9,836 |
...Would not use an XTP on elk or moose though, as they have bones and joints that can be very tough... If you're going to use an XTP, and not an A-Frame or Barnes, once you get to game as big and big-boned as elk and moose, I'd strongly recommend using the XTP-MAG. They have a much thicker jacket than the standard XTP and are rated for much higher velocities. Eric. I have seen the XTP Mags fail pretty miserably over the last couple of years. I would go with the A-frame personally.
|
|
|
Re: a-frame accuracy
[Re: Whitworth]
#186080
11/06/2017 7:55 PM
|
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 765
wheelguns
old hand
|
old hand
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 765 |
In 2013 I posted a group I shot with the 325gr. a-frame out of my FA in 454 that was 11/16" @ 100 yards. Yep I'd say they're accurate.
|
|
|
Re: a-frame accuracy
[Re: wheelguns]
#186081
11/06/2017 8:20 PM
|
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 9,836
Whitworth
Shootist
|
Shootist
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 9,836 |
In 2013 I posted a group I shot with the 325gr. a-frame out of my FA in 454 that was 11/16" @ 100 yards. Yep I'd say they're accurate. I would say you're accurate as well!
|
|
|
Re: a-frame accuracy
[Re: Whitworth]
#186083
11/06/2017 8:23 PM
|
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 765
wheelguns
old hand
|
old hand
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 765 |
|
|
|
Re: a-frame accuracy
[Re: wheelguns]
#186085
11/06/2017 9:33 PM
|
Joined: Jun 2010
Posts: 3,020
tradmark
Shooting Expert
|
Shooting Expert
Joined: Jun 2010
Posts: 3,020 |
That aint all the gun and bullet. Lotta shooter in that as well.
|
|
|
Re: a-frame accuracy
[Re: tradmark]
#186111
11/07/2017 11:42 PM
|
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 1,048
wvhitman
old hand
|
old hand
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 1,048 |
I have several XTPs (.454 ) recovered from medium size WV whitetails on quartering shots, poorly expanded. My thoughts are if I can recover them from our small whitetails, then I'm not shooting anything bigger with one. Another useful bullet is the Speer 260 gr. Mag HP. Oddly, they do super on deer with decent exits and damage and always complete penetration, but they are death on turkeys- broadside shots, 1" damage, instant drops, 35+ birds taken with zero losses. Still, A Frames are the best. Not good on turkeys. Took one by mistake with them. Low hit. Completely gutted the bird. Only had to dissect the breast.
|
|
|
Re: a-frame accuracy
[Re: wvhitman]
#186287
11/13/2017 7:33 PM
|
Joined: Jun 2010
Posts: 3,020
tradmark
Shooting Expert
|
Shooting Expert
Joined: Jun 2010
Posts: 3,020 |
Your observations mirror mine on the xtps. About 15 to 20 years ago they seemed better but coulda been luck. Those are bold words though. The hornady religion is strong.
|
|
|
|
0 registered members (),
94
guests, and 3
spiders. |
Key:
Admin,
Global Mod,
Mod
|
|
|