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Re: bullet failure [Re: Franchise] #191248 03/29/2018 2:52 AM
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JWP....IVE GOT IT RIGHT IN FRONT OF ME....I GUESS HORNADY CAN CALL IT WHAT THEY WANT, BUT YOU ARE THE ONLY PERSON ON EARTH THAT CANT SEE THAT THEY ARE THE SAME


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Re: bullet failure [Re: Franchise] #191249 03/29/2018 2:56 AM
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Franchise I posted a link to pictures on the bragging board that you obviously didn?t look at. The pictures are from Hornady and the 500 grains is called Traditional and th3 350 grain is called XTP. I?ve looked at everything you?ve posted but you have not looked at what I?ve posted.

Last edited by jwp475; 03/29/2018 2:57 AM.
Re: bullet failure [Re: jwp475] #191250 03/29/2018 2:59 AM
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I saw it, that's why I said that they can call it what they want...it's the same bullet...I'm not arguing anything, but they call it XTP in their catalog...you're just arguing with me because it's me


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Re: bullet failure [Re: Franchise] #191251 03/29/2018 2:59 AM
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 Originally Posted By: Franchise
JWP....IVE GOT IT RIGHT IN FRONT OF ME....I GUESS HORNADY CAN CALL IT WHAT THEY WANT, BUT YOU ARE THE ONLY PERSON ON EARTH THAT CANT SEE THAT THEY ARE THE SAME


All capitals does that make you feel more empowered? If they call them different names, why do you think they are the same?

Re: bullet failure [Re: Franchise] #191252 03/29/2018 3:02 AM
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 Originally Posted By: Franchise
I saw it, that's why I said that they can call it what they want...it's the same bullet...I'm not arguing anything, but they call it XTP in their catalog...youvery argued with me because it's me


Nope, has nothing to do with who you are, Hornady has 2 different names for them, logic would lead a logical person to be believe their is a reason they are not both called XTP. Only the 350 grain bullet is called ?XTP? the 500 grain bullet is called ?Traditional?

Re: bullet failure [Re: jwp475] #191254 03/29/2018 3:07 AM
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Re: bullet failure [Re: Franchise] #191255 03/29/2018 3:08 AM
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Argue with the box of component Bullets from Hornady.....looks like XTP to me


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Re: bullet failure [Re: Franchise] #191256 03/29/2018 3:10 AM
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I can't wait to hear how the box is wrong now


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Re: bullet failure [Re: Franchise] #191257 03/29/2018 3:15 AM
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 Originally Posted By: Franchise
I can't wait to hear how the box is wrong now


I?m waiting to hear how Hornady web site is wrong.

Re: bullet failure [Re: Franchise] #191259 03/29/2018 3:25 AM
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 Quote:
....good old JWP.....


Hahaha, YUP. Been there, done that ;-)


Rod, too.

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Re: bullet failure [Re: s4s4u] #191264 03/29/2018 11:37 AM
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Re: bullet failure [Re: s4s4u] #191265 03/29/2018 11:43 AM
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FRANCHISE & JWP: A HEATED BUT POILITE DISCUSSION. THEY DO NOT LOOK LIKE XTP's AS I DO NOT SEE THE SLITS IN THE JACKET CHARACTERISTIC OF THE XTP's (ON SECOND VIEWING THERE MAY BE SOME REALLY SMALL SLITS, NOT SURE).

BELIEVE IT OR NOT, THERE IS OFTEN A DISCONNECT BETWEEN THE MARKETING/LABELING GUYS AND THE GUYS THAT ACTUALLY MAKE THEM. WHAT I WOULD LIKE TO KNOW IS HOW THIS BULLET WORKS ON WHAT IN REVOLVERS IN 500 S&W, 500 JRH AND 500 WE. (JUST SAW A POST BY BUD RUMMEL ON BRAGGING BOARD UNDER PICTURE OF THE XTP 500 gr AMMO POSTED BY FRANCHISE, GOOD, BUT NEGATIVE, REPORT BY BUD ON THIS AMMO).

Last edited by 45MAN; 03/29/2018 12:01 PM.

"ADAPT OR DIE". I USE ALL CAPS, NOT BECAUSE I AM YELLING, BUT BECAUSE IT IS AN OLD HABIT FROM MY ARMY DAYS, PLUS IT IS EASIER TO TYPE AND READ.
Re: bullet failure [Re: 45MAN] #191268 03/29/2018 12:06 PM
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How about CALLING Hornady to find out once and for all? Hard to argue with a box though!


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Re: bullet failure [Re: Raptortrapper] #191269 03/29/2018 12:13 PM
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I think it's like debating GoldDot vs Deep Curl... You can find both in books and boxes and websites...but at the end of the day, they're the same thing.


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Re: bullet failure [Re: KRal] #191270 03/29/2018 12:17 PM
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Semantics. I know a number of big game handgun hunters who have used that Hornady factory load on big bovines and it has not worked well, including Bud?s report. Keep in mind Bud is a former PH out of Zimbabwe and he has a lot of big game hunting experience with both handguns and rifles. His opinion matters to me.


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Re: bullet failure [Re: Whitworth] #191271 03/29/2018 12:24 PM
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I absolutely am not at all arguing with Buds results, he obviously had less than great results..Some bullets work at times and some come up short..that's unfortunately life..it's each hunters choice to use them or not


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Re: bullet failure [Re: Franchise] #191272 03/29/2018 12:25 PM
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 Originally Posted By: Franchise
I absolutely am not at all arguing with Buds results, he obviously had less than great results..Some bullets work at times and some come up short..that's unfortunately life..it's each hunters choice to use them or not


Inconsistent performance can get you killed.


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Re: bullet failure [Re: Franchise] #191273 03/29/2018 12:25 PM
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All XTP'S are traditional in my book..they are unbonded and lack a partition....that's traditional to me


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Re: bullet failure [Re: Franchise] #191274 03/29/2018 12:28 PM
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Almost all bullets can be pushed to failure...missing and not being able to place shots properly can get you killed too...there are a lot of variables in failure


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Re: bullet failure [Re: Franchise] #191275 03/29/2018 1:16 PM
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 Originally Posted By: Franchise
Almost all bullets can be pushed to failure...missing and not being able to place shots properly can get you killed too...there are a lot of variables in failure


This is true, but we should all take the responsibility of reducing the variables that we can, and the bullet's integrity is a big one.

We can argue semantics till the cows come home, and call it what you will, but the question remains: Is it a good bullet or not? That, in a nutshell, is my only concern.


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Re: bullet failure [Re: Whitworth] #191277 03/29/2018 1:36 PM
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Truly that is what we all should want...I still think that we can improve on most bullet designs and construction...no a single thing to argue about there


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Re: bullet failure [Re: Raptortrapper] #191281 03/29/2018 2:45 PM
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 Originally Posted By: Raptortrapper
How about CALLING Hornady to find out once and for all? Hard to argue with a box though!



Just got of the phone with Hornady and they do not offer the 500 grain XTP in a component bullet only in loaded ammo. The 500 grain offered is a traditional pistol bullet flat point with no serations to aid expansion.

Re: bullet failure [Re: Whitworth] #191282 03/29/2018 2:47 PM
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 Originally Posted By: Whitworth
Semantics. I know a number of big game handgun hunters who have used that Hornady factory load on big bovines and it has not worked well, including Bud?s report. Keep in mind Bud is a former PH out of Zimbabwe and he has a lot of big game hunting experience with both handguns and rifles. His opinion matters to me.


No it?s not semantics, they are indeed two different bullets.

Just got of the phone with Hornady and they do not offer the 500 grain XTP in a component bullet only in loaded ammo. The 500 grain offered is a traditional pistol bullet flat point with no serations to aid expansion.

Re: bullet failure [Re: jwp475] #191283 03/29/2018 2:55 PM
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 Originally Posted By: jwp475
 Originally Posted By: Whitworth
Semantics. I know a number of big game handgun hunters who have used that Hornady factory load on big bovines and it has not worked well, including Bud?s report. Keep in mind Bud is a former PH out of Zimbabwe and he has a lot of big game hunting experience with both handguns and rifles. His opinion matters to me.


No it?s not semantics, they are indeed two different bullets.

Just got of the phone with Hornady and they do not offer the 500 grain XTP in a component bullet only in loaded ammo. The 500 grain offered is a traditional pistol bullet flat point with no serations to aid expansion.



Doesn't matter what it's called. What matters is that it is not a very good bullet.


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Re: bullet failure [Re: KRal] #191284 03/29/2018 3:03 PM
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 Originally Posted By: KRal
I think it's like debating GoldDot vs Deep Curl... You can find both in books and boxes and websites...but at the end of the day, they're the same thing.



Exactly, doesnt matter semantics. Matters if its good or not. I oddly enough bought a few boxes from midway for my sons 500 jrh. Mustve bought at the transition and wish i kept the boxes. Never thought i would need to. Bought 5 boxes. 3 were clearly older and werent marked xtp and 2 were the newer packaging and labeled as xtps. If hornady doesnt know what to call them we prolly shouldnt be wasting time debating semantics but results on game.

Re: bullet failure [Re: tradmark] #191285 03/29/2018 3:05 PM
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In 475 speer labels soft points and hollowpoints all as deepcurls formerly known as gold dots. None of the name
Changes made them good
Or bad bullets.

Re: bullet failure [Re: Whitworth] #191288 03/29/2018 4:02 PM
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 Originally Posted By: Whitworth
 Originally Posted By: jwp475
 Originally Posted By: Whitworth
Semantics. I know a number of big game handgun hunters who have used that Hornady factory load on big bovines and it has not worked well, including Bud?s report. Keep in mind Bud is a former PH out of Zimbabwe and he has a lot of big game hunting experience with both handguns and rifles. His opinion matters to me.


No it?s not semantics, they are indeed two different bullets.

Just got of the phone with Hornady and they do not offer the 500 grain XTP in a component bullet only in loaded ammo. The 500 grain offered is a traditional pistol bullet flat point with no serations to aid expansion.



Doesn't matter what it's called. What matters is that it is not a very good bullet.


If it doesn?t matter what it?s called then how is one to know the difference in the good one and or the bad one ?

It?s lije some think a magazine and a clip is the same thing when in fact they ar3 2 different things.
Accuracy matters in names and shooting.


Last edited by jwp475; 03/29/2018 4:03 PM.
Re: bullet failure [Re: tradmark] #191289 03/29/2018 4:07 PM
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 Originally Posted By: tradmark
In 475 speer labels soft points and hollowpoints all as deepcurls formerly known as gold dots. None of the name
Changes made them good
Or bad bullets.


They are the same bullet with a name change, we are talking about 2 different bullets that are made different.

Last edited by jwp475; 03/29/2018 4:08 PM.
Re: bullet failure [Re: jwp475] #191290 03/29/2018 4:08 PM
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XTP or Traditional, Ordinary, Extraordinary, Pathetic, whatever they call it, it ain't good. That's the only point I'm trying to make here. This is a thread about bullet failure, not nomenclature. Names perhaps do matter if there is some radical design difference, but from what I can tell, they used to call that bullet an XTP and now they don't. What doesn't change is the construction and performance of that bullet.

I still don't think Michael has used them on anything really big. I will call him to confirm.


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Re: bullet failure [Re: Whitworth] #191291 03/29/2018 4:16 PM
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What were the shortcomings of the 500 grain bullet when used on larger game?

Re: bullet failure [Re: Whitworth] #191292 03/29/2018 4:19 PM
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 Originally Posted By: Whitworth
XTP or Traditional, Ordinary, Extraordinary, Pathetic, whatever they call it, it ain't good. That's the only point I'm trying to make here. This is a thread about bullet failure, not nomenclature. Names perhaps do matter if there is some radical design difference, but from what I can tell, they used to call that bullet an XTP and now they don't. What doesn't change is the construction and performance of that bullet.

I still don't think Michael has used them on anything really big. I will call him to confirm.


Just got of the phone with Hornady and they do not offer the 500 grain XTP in a component bullet only in loaded ammo. The 500 grain offered is a traditional pistol bullet flat point with no serations to aid expansion.

They aren?t made the same, they do make a 500 XTP that they only market in loaded Ammo according to the Hornady employee that I spoke with.

Re: bullet failure [Re: Franchise] #191293 03/29/2018 4:24 PM
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 Originally Posted By: Franchise
Truly that is what we all should want...I still think that we can improve on most bullet designs and construction...no a single thing to argue about there



Agreed. The first step in better Bullets is to identify short comings and then correct them.

Re: bullet failure [Re: jwp475] #191294 03/29/2018 4:45 PM
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I think several current bullet designs could be improved on, for instance, bond the XTP'S, put the cannelure lower on a frames to allow for hotter loading, make Speer bullets readily available all year, and bring back the Trophy Bonded Bear Claw in the 454 and offer them in other revolver rounds


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Re: bullet failure [Re: Franchise] #191295 03/29/2018 4:49 PM
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For single shot folks, make north fork bullets softer so that they can expand more, and offer Trophy Bonded Bear Claws in a wider range of bullet weights...the only knock on a frames, and this is only when pushed hard, is sometimes you'll get a double mushroom..one in front of and one behind the partition..I'm a big fan of Woodleigh Weldcore and Norma Oryx bullets, but they're not perfect either


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Re: bullet failure [Re: Franchise] #191296 03/29/2018 5:32 PM
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 Originally Posted By: Franchise
I think several current bullet designs could be improved on, for instance, bond the XTP'S, put the cannelure lower on a frames to allow for hotter loading, make Speer bullets readily available all year, and bring back the Trophy Bonded Bear Claw in the 454 and offer them in other revolver rounds


When Trophy Bonded Bear Claw decided to close shop, Jack and I almost bought it. But we were both very busy with our work and didn?t feel we had the time to devote to the business.

Re: bullet failure [Re: Whitworth] #191297 03/29/2018 5:49 PM
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 Originally Posted By: Whitworth
 Originally Posted By: Franchise
Almost all bullets can be pushed to failure...missing and not being able to place shots properly can get you killed too...there are a lot of variables in failure


This is true, but we should all take the responsibility of reducing the v[/b]ariables that we can, and the bullet's integrity is a big one.

We can argue semantics till the cows come home, and call it what you will, but the question remains: Is it a good bullet or not?

That, in a nutshell, is my only concern.


By golly, I missed most of this in "real time."
\:D


You guys are almost funny, but serious too.
\:o


Here is what I know:

XTP
stands for "Extreme Terminal Performance." The design that we all imagine when XTP is mentioned is the hollow point with the deep serrations on the nose.

The 500 grain "flat lead nose" bullet shown in the pics is not of the "traditional XTP design" that we all think off. (It actually looks like the .45 caliber Freedom Arms Bullet design almost exactly!)

What the box or Hornady calls it IS confusing IMO. HOWEVER, if it "Gives Extreme Terminal Performance" then there you go!

;\)


No reason to argue!
\:\)


I hope that we are now all "on the same page."









Re: bullet failure [Re: Gregg Richter] #191300 03/29/2018 6:07 PM
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It's my Friday...I'm Happy 😉😁😆


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Re: bullet failure [Re: Franchise] #191302 03/29/2018 6:23 PM
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 Originally Posted By: Franchise
I think several current bullet designs could be improved on, for instance, bond the XTP'S, put the cannelure lower on a frames to allow for hotter loading, make Speer bullets readily available all year, and bring back the Trophy Bonded Bear Claw in the 454 and offer them in other revolver rounds



The aframe changes i would make are very caliber specific nut none less than add 475?s and a heavier longer 50 cal and most of all is a heavier longer 41 to make use of the mass of space with their 210?s due to their short length. Basically you read my mind!

Re: bullet failure [Re: jwp475] #191303 03/29/2018 6:27 PM
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 Originally Posted By: jwp475
 Originally Posted By: Whitworth
XTP or Traditional, Ordinary, Extraordinary, Pathetic, whatever they call it, it ain't good. That's the only point I'm trying to make here. This is a thread about bullet failure, not nomenclature. Names perhaps do matter if there is some radical design difference, but from what I can tell, they used to call that bullet an XTP and now they don't. What doesn't change is the construction and performance of that bullet.

I still don't think Michael has used them on anything really big. I will call him to confirm.


Just got of the phone with Hornady and they do not offer the 500 grain XTP in a component bullet only in loaded ammo. The 500 grain offered is a traditional pistol bullet flat point with no serations to aid expansion.

They aren?t made the same, they do make a 500 XTP that they only market in loaded Ammo according to the Hornady employee that I spoke with.



Well that would explain the varying reports and different results in ballistic gel when some say they dont expand and others have shown core separation in ballistics gel.

Re: bullet failure [Re: Franchise] #191309 03/29/2018 8:51 PM
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 Originally Posted By: Franchise
I think several current bullet designs could be improved on, for instance, bond the XTP'S, put the cannelure lower on a frames to allow for hotter loading, make Speer bullets readily available all year, and bring back the Trophy Bonded Bear Claw in the 454 and offer them in other revolver rounds


Jack and I nearly bought the Trophy Bonded Bear Claw Bullets equipment when the decided to close shop.

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