The distance is irrelevant. The impact velocity is what matters. It's a .338RCM out of a 20" barrel, not the WinMag, so it's going to already be slower. Do you really think that 100fps slower would make a difference? If it did, would you still want to use it? Do I want to shoot an elk at 50yds on a $10,000 hunt with a bullet that fragments at the muzzle? Or do I want a bullet that holds its wad no matter the circumstances? That 'should' be an easy one to answer.

I approach all this with an open mind and no agenda. I used to be diehard about cast bullets for everything but have since accepted that they are not without their shortcomings. I want a good bullet and don't give a rat's ass whose name is on the box. Fact is I've associated more bullet failures with Hornady than any other manufacturer. Sure, I've seen, had or heard of Remingtons and Federals fail too. I sold my .243 and refuse to use a standard cup & core bullet in the .250Savage because of it. This ain't 1950 and we don't have to put up with crap bullets.

Meh, I don?t defend a name for name?s sake. Not defending Hornady at all.

I was implying the impact velocity when I mentioned the 3 foot distance. Or maybe, I should have implied it better. Yes.......impact velocity is what is important. That?s what I?ve been on about all these years.

So, what do you estimate the impact velocity of that RCM at 3 feet?

BOY AM I GLAD I AM NOT A RIFLE HUNTER, TOO MANY OPPORTUNITIES FOR FAILURE ON THE DEALER SHELVES. WHEN I USE RIFLE, OR RIFLE LIKE, CARTRIDGES IN SPECIALTY PISTOLS IT HELPS THAT LOWER VELOCITIES MAKE A LOT OF ORDINARY BULLETS INTO PREMIUM BULLETS. ON WHITETAILS I HAVE NEVER HAD ANY PROBLEMS WITH WINCHESTER 150 gr FACTORY AMMO IN A 14 INCH .308 XL. WHAT WORKS IN JDJ's IS WELL DOCUMENTED. THE HORNADY .376 STEYR 225 gr FACTORY LOAD IN A 15 INCH XL HAS ALWAYS WORKED EXTREMELY WELL FOR ME ON DEER. WHEN IT COMES TO REVOLVER BULLETS, I ONLY HUNT WITH 45 CALIBER REVOLVERS, AND I STRIVE FOR DEAD CENTER SHOULDER SHOTS, SO I LOOK FOR BULLET INTEGRITY. I AM GOING TO MAYBE TRY TO HUNT DEER AND HOGS WITH A FA 357 MAG REVOLVER AND FOR THAT I WILL PROBABLY USE EXPANDING BULLETS AND THEN HAVE TO HOPE THAT THEY WORK.

Box says 2,750 fps (probably out of a 24in barrel)

So, maybe around 2,650 to 2,675 +/- fps from a 20in barre?

And honestly, that SST pic you posted looks pretty good to me actually. I wouldn?t consider that recovered bullet a failure.

Sorry for jumping in here so late but Max you got me thinking and if I were to add up all the recovered bullets from game and times it by......say 3 or 4 times.....that will give you the amount of projectiles that I never recovered.... Living where I am I cannot set up any sort of way to catch the bullets which would make it much more easier for me....Anyway, I agree with what Franchise wrote...ha hah ha.......

Hey Craig please forgive me as I did not forget about you

cause I would like to hear what happened.....

Sorry...should have asked were your experiences with rifle or handgun bullets??

Maybe not but some will defend their pet bullet/brand to the death, so it seems.

Knowing how the box is so often very optimistic, I wouldn't bother trying to guess. Really doesn't matter anyway, referring to my point about shooting an elk at 50yds. The recovered weight was 134gr. It penetrated 11", whereas a .44Mag 330gr LFN penetrated 26". Whether one regards it as a failure or not, I wouldn't use that bullet on anything bigger than deer and I wouldn't hunt deer with a .338 so.....

I agree. I would not choose that bullet for elk hunting.

Deer/Pigs/etc.........I would without issue.

Just counted 62 recovered handgun bullets from downed game and if I use my "loose fitting" formula of multiplying that amount by four it comes to 248 bullets that I never recovered and may be up there with "Mariner 9" circling the earth.... I have a feeling that 248 is on the low side of the count....

Zee, The cast bullet you asked about is a 388gr. HP loaded over 14.0grs of HS-6 in 480 Ruger brass and shot from a 5 1/2"
Ruger Bisley.... The boar was around 30yds... This bullet was made by Dick Thompson with help from Glenn Swaggertt.... They gave me this load info after trying different powders and finding that the HS-6 load of 14.0grs gave the best velocity for this hollow point to work properly.. I believe a 0.5 grain increase caused the petals to shear off...

Thanks.

Zee, there is a very shallow gap between the 2 crimp grooves in that 388 gr cast HP that I make. For that reason I seat in the bottom crimp groove. Glenn crimps in the top crimp groove but you can shear off that small amount of lead between the 2 crimp grooves, many have had that happen. Plus it changes pressures.
Glenn has also shot that bullet completely through a large bull bison with an exit.
Dick

I look forward to trying that bullet on game this year.

It?s amazing how James can ask such a simple question and have it result in such a loooong thread and passionate exchange. I have stayed on the porch so far on this thread as I am a relative small pup in the field of big dogs that are sharing their experiences and opinions.
Getting back to the original question I would define bullet failure as a projectile that either fragments prematurely without imparting a fatal wound on an animal or a bullet that penetrates without making a sufficient wound channel to quickly kill or immobilize an animal. Penetration is great but obviously controlled expansion will kill quicker if the penetration is adequate. It?s my preference that a bullet creates a larger than caliber would channel and always exits to create the best possible blood trail if the animal does not drop. Additionally, bullet placement and using enough gun are baseline requirements for properly judging a bullets performance. The rules certainly change as the game gets bigger. So another important rule is to properly match the bullet and cartridge to the game. I have taken about 20 whitetails with various 44 magnums using 23 grains of H110 with a 240 grain Hornady XTP. All have been pass throughs with 0 bullets recovered. For me this round works great on deer. I have shot 2 whitetails with SSK 320 cast bullets and both ran some distance with double lung shots. If I were to use the 44 Magnum on larger game I would consider the 320 cast or possibly a tougher jacketed bullet. I have shot about the same number of animals with the TC 358 JDJ that have also all been pass throughs. About 10 deer with the Speer 220 grain flat point and about 10 or so with the Hornady 250 grain Interlock. Again all pass throughs. Velocity of the 358 is about 2000-2100 at the muzzle. The largest animals I have shot with this bullet is a 600 lb Kudu and a 450 lb or so Blue Wildebeest plus a couple warthogs. All full penetration shoulder shots. The Kudu at 190 yards and the Wildebeest at 100.
I consider the Speer 220 flat point the best 358 deer bullet and the 250 Hornaday spire point a great bullet for larger game up to Moose or Eland. It is my assumption that if any of these 3 bullets were driven at significantally higher velocities they may fracture and fail. Again I am sure the rules are different for the big bovines.

billa, you bring some good experience to the table, well done! Any cup & core bullet can fail if it makes contact right off the muzzle with hard bone, etc at pretty much it's maximum design limits.
But look at all the buffalo Lynn Thompson killed with Hornady bullets when they were off a ways & also remember the 2 amazing Cape Buffalo our new member hammered with Horandy XTP's & the bullets looked amazing, how do we counter that, we can't! Remember, both were off a little ways.
Friend Ken O'Neil had taken some massive Bison & Water Buffalo using Hornady bullets & had no problems & he's done it more than once. This bullet thing doesn't come down to one success or one failure & call it good or bad. Same way with cast, shoot high velocity & hit heavy bone right off the muzzle & the bullet loses, slow things down a tick & you might see a different outcome. Crazy game we play for sure. Don't think there's one right answer for every situation.

Dick

billa nailed it

Wow.....we have a lot of incomplete test data....so I reckon conclusions were drawn by filling in missing data with emotion.

To me it's all about maximizing your odds of success and minimizing chances of failure.

I have no expertise with handgun bullet performance in big game hunting, so I hope you will not be offended if I comment but this thread and others like it are fascinating.

It may not be applicable by analogy, or relevant in any way at all, but these threads bring to mind things I have seen in another arena.

I suspect no one has more theoretical, laboratory testing, field testing and actual field performance experience, analysis and data than the military, particularly the Army, with bullet performance in living tissue. Ask any Army trauma surgeon and they will tell you that it is common to see bullets do very strange things in bodies; inexplicable things. Large city forensic pathologists who do autopsies on gun shot victims will say the same.

Maybe there will always be anomalies in this area. Maybe there are just too many and diverse factors that come into play. Maybe a reasonably consistent performance in a specific application is the best one can hope for.

Maybe these experiences with soft skinned humans bears no relevance to large wild game and I have just wasted your time.

Either way, it is a very interesting thread.

Craig44, I agree but does that mean only one bullet will work on every thing & others will fail, even on the smaller big game? I'm not defending Hornady, I don't use them either but an awful lot of people have taken lots of game with them with great success.
Some bullets need to expand quicker rather than later depending on the animal. One such animal is a Mountain Goat. I've skinned a fair amount of them for a Taxidermist friend & they are built deep but somewhat narrow for their size. I guess that's so they can navigate around cliffs & ledges where they live.
Anyway, on them you want a bullet that expands fairly fast & works it's magic quickly because as I mentioned they are deep up & down but not real thick.
Switching to something thick & compact like a big feral hog requires a different structured bullet that holds together longer & damages that animal all the way through like the bullets you guys mention or a good, heavy cast bullet. Hope this makes sense.

Dick

First off, I've really enjoyed this thread, but we could continue this discussion forever..there are no perfect bullets in my opinion, there are some that are better, but no where near perfect. Impact velocity plays a huge role in what bullets do just as what they impact. A bullet will almost certainly act differently at 100 yards than it will at point blank range. Plus, a huge factor in this is....90 - 95 percent of most handgun hunters are probably shooting deer and boar, with a few bears thrown in for fun..the guys and girls out west are shooting elk and pronghorn..point being, the majority of all the bullets we have discussed will work wonderfully on these animals if WE PUT THEM IN THE KILL ZONE 😉😬😜

Yup. Shot placement trumps all else.

I have used all of the major brands of bullets and lead ones I cast. Never had an issue as long as I did my part.

The problem with the military's experience is that it's limited to high velocity, non-expanding, pointy bullets. Even the handgun data. I know we didn't sign The Hague Convention but we adhere to at least the part that restricts the use of expanding bullets. So the usefulness of any data derived from the military is very limited.

EDIT: Weird things happen when you start a response and finish it two hours later.

Impact distance is irrelevant. A bullet is not going to act any different at 3' than it will at 300yds if the impact velocity is the same. The question remains, do you really want to go afield with a bullet you KNOW is suspect at close range? Where is the line drawn, 50yds, 100? I don't want to work in such a narrow margin. I want a bullet that works at both ends of my effective range.

We also have many reports of bullets failing on deer-sized game. So it is all relevant.



In any discussion of terminal ballistics, shot placement is a given. It also does not make up for bullet failure. I don't know why this keeps getting parroted. It's in essence tangent to the discussion here.

So why are you trying so hard to discredit reports of failures???

Craig, what animals have you, yourself, shot with a handgun, that you had bullet failures? Is it 1 time or 2, because I'm trying hard to find where "you" have had many failures with handgun bullets..seems like a lot of opinion with little handgun hunting experience

I don't understand this statement. Impact velocity is directly relative to impact distance. No cartridge can maintain the same velocity regardless of distance.

I take up to 100 Medium Game Animals (deer/pigs/etc) throughout the year in culling and crop damage prevention. I test and play with various cartridges and bullets for fun.

My list of preferred bullets I like and that have not failed me in effectively taking game are:

.224cal - 62gr TSX / 64gr GD / 64gr PowerPoint / 77gr SMK / 80gr A-Max
.243cal - 85gr HPBT-GK / 105gr A-Max
.257cal - 117gr SST / 115gr Berger HVLD
6.5mm - 140gr A-Max
7mm - 162gr A-Max
.308cal - 125gr SST / 150gr BT / 165gr BT / 165gr Tactical Bonded / 165gr HPBT-GK / 168gr A-Max / 208gr A-Max
.338cal - 200gr BST / 225gr DC / 285gr A-Max
.358cal - 158gr XTP / 180gr XTP / 200gr FTX / 200gr HDY RN / 250gr Interlock
.375 - 270gr HDY-PSP
10mm - 155gr HST / 165gr GD / 180gr HST / 180gr XTP
.423cal - 400gr RNSP-DG
.430cal - 240gr XTP / 325gr WFN-GC
.452 - 250gr XTP / 300gr WFN-GC / 350gr WFN-GC
.458 - 300gr HP / 500gr RNSP
.50cal - 440gr WFN-GC

I am probably forgetting some.

This is what I have/keep on my shelf that I?ve used and like. Some, I?ve used a lot. Some, I?ve used a little. But, all gave me the satisfactory results I look for in a bullet for medium gave.

There are others I have loaded but have not used yet. So, the list may grow. There are some I?ve used and disliked.

This is my list. It makes me happy. All are free to agree or disagree. But, they have worked for me. So, this is my list.

Exactly. Impact velocity is completely relevant. Bullets generally have minimum and maxim impact velocities in which they work.

This is fact wether we are talking about either end of the shooting distance argument. A bullet that works at 5 yards may be horrible at 500 yards and the opposite is also true.

There is a lot more science to this then what?s being given for ?facts? here.

And no I?m not defending any brand. I use a lot of different projectiles based on the intended use. No one projectile will do everything.

Not at all but how many failures are acceptable? Yeah, lots of folks have had success with the bullets in question. Does that nullify the failures? Remember what I said about improving the odds?



"Very little handgun hunting experience"??? I'm curious to know how you come that conclusion?



You're taking my comments out of proper context. Impact velocity is what matters. The distance is irrelevant. Zee wanted to discount the bullet I recovered from SIMTEST because it was 3' from the muzzle. The distance it was from the muzzle is irrelevant. The impact velocity IS relevant. In other words, if the bullet comes apart at 2700fps, that is useful information. So if you're starting with 3000fps muzzle velocity, then you can calculate at what range this will occur. Likewise, you know if you're starting at 2500fps, you will get less expansion/fragmentation. The ultimate point here being that that bullet is not going to get better at velocity higher than that achieved by the .338RCM unless you're shooting at very long range. And that I'm not going to hunt with a bullet that comes apart at the muzzle because whatever it does at the muzzle, it's going to do anywhere within 100yds.



I'm pretty sure that's what I said.

No I didn?t. The impact velocity retained at 3 feet is not applicable to my purposes for that bullet and my intended game. Try not to put words in my mouth. Please.

We already discussed how the retained velocity was my implied concern.

I have always been one to show interest in the muzzle and impact velocity. I think I?ve made that relatively clear.

Thanks.

The horse named opinion here is way too tall. And facts are skewed with very little data to come to a accurate and reasonable conclusion.

The only one I have ever seen post complete data gathered from any bullet is zee. He post pictures through the entire post shot process. Details range, load data, estimated impact velocity and so on. The only way I know Anything about him is through reading the forum posts.

Someone?s background doesn?t make up for lack of evidence in a scientific discussion. If you don?t look at this as a scientific discussion your more than likely missing a lot of facts.

You can?t have a quarter, half, 3/4 the data and draw a complete conclusion. You need every piece of data otherwise your stating opinion......and opinions are worth about zero.

People desire facts to help them make decisions on their hunting equipment....opinions you can get from the rookie at the gun counter...

Whether it?s cup and core, lead, bonded, solid or whatever all the major bullet makers produce an acceptable product if used within its limitations....and they all have limitations.

I would suggest settling down on the opinion and beef up on the fact finding....produce complete data....then you?ll have a leg worth standing on in an argument.

Yes, you did and you did that before I even shared its retained weight. Its relevance depends on what cartridge you plan on using it in and you never shared that. You discounted it due to the distance saying, "I'm not likely to shoot an animal at 3 feet. That's a little unrealistic for my application." You said you had shot them in the .338WinMag. Well, if you shoot anything at 100yds, you'll get what I got at the muzzle. I see you never bothered to answer my question about going afield with a bullet you know will fragment and lose half its ass inside 100yds. None of which really matters, as we all quantify "failure" differently.



All you have offered is criticism. The above is no different. We all know what Theodore Roosevelt said about critics. What do you bring to the table besides criticism? Sorry but your opinion of our opinion isn't really much at all. You speak in broad sweeping generalities. Whose information on what example is lacking? Maybe you just don't know enough to properly interpret what's being presented?

Hmm....hostile and belittling much? Grow up dude... get over yourself.

Well then, unfortunately you misunderstood me and are incorrect.

Hostile? Grow up? Get over what?

I see you failed to answer the questions.

Maybe I did but it was the context of the "distance doesn't matter" comment.

So far here is how this thread has went.....

Opinions were stated on what is bullet failure. That?s all good...opinions were asked for

Then half compiled facts were thrown out for proof of what consistently fails....

So far enough facts haven?t been posted to be worth putting in my expertise.

But yes. You have one heck of an attitude problem which is apparent across the forum.
It?s not that hard to be reasonable and polite and skipping out on jumping to insults....

The only one making personal comments here is you. It's unnecessary, uncalled for and unproductive. We're talking about bullets here, not wives, mothers or dogs. I don't see a valid reason for ruffled feathers.

So we haven't earned the right to hear your "expertise", is that what you're saying? You think this "attitude" is going to be helpful?

I'll ask again, whose information is lacking? I can't speak for others but if you have questions, perhaps it's possible to obtain more information, if you would but ask for it?

That is quite a broad statement that I must unfortunately disagree with due to personal experiences.

So you would willingly take to the field with a bullet you know comes apart at close range? I guess it's a jacketed "thing" because I sure as hell wouldn't.