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Reduced Hunting Load for my boy. Opinions? #190744 03/20/2018 11:12 PM
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I?m planning to let my boy shoot his first deer with a handgun this year. So far, he has been successful with a rifle chambered in .243 Winchester. Taking 5 deer in 2016 and 3 deer in 2017. I think he is ready for handgun hunting. He will be 12 by next season.

Right now, I?m looking at 2 possible guns.

CVA Scout Pistol in .243 Winchester - 85gr Sierra HPBT-Game King
TC Contender in .30-30 AI

CVA results:



I used a reduced load I?d made 5 years ago for my girl to take her first antelope with a rifle and it worked well with little recoil from a heavy, braked rifle.

The recoil in the unbraked CVA was a little more than I expected and shocked my boy a little as well. Until that day, he had only fired .22 lr handguns. It wasn?t painful to him. Just startling and abrupt. But, he hit the plaster at 50 yards with his first shot!!!





Yeah, it?s only 50 yards. Gotta start him somewhere.

Velocity was 2,440 fps with plenty of room to lower the powder charge and reduce the recoil a little more. Sierra said I need to keep the impact velocity of the bullet around 1,600-1,700 fps.

Contender results:



I went on a guess and used a 165gr NBT, .30-30 Win case (to fire form for my use) and a 20gr load of H4895 from Hodgdons reduces load data.



Recoil was darn near unnoticeable! And he hit the plaster on his first shot AGAIN!



The disadvantage was the velocity. Only 1,300 fps and too slow for the bullet to expand in water at 50 yards.



So, that load needs to be scraped and a new one made. I am going to change to a 125gr SST bullet that I use in my .30-30 AI load and up the powder charge to get a 1,600 fps impact velocity that Hornady recommends. My fear is that it could increase the recoil above what he is comfortable with. But, the gun has a brake and that should help.

My question to you gentlemen:

-Should I stick with the current .243 Win load and just slowly let him get use to it with short range trips?
-Should I reduce the .243 Win load to lower the recoil and maintain an acceptable impact velocity?
-Should I try the 125gr SST in the .30-30 and increase the powder to get the needed impact velocity?

His shot will likely be within 125 yards and most likely 75-100.

Really would like your opinions and suggestions.

We finished the range session shooting the Ruger Charger at 50 yards.





It was a good day and I?ve got time to get a gun selected, load developed, and practice sessions in the bag.

What say ye?


"To Hell with efficiency, it's performance we want!" - Elmer Keith
Re: Reduced Hunting Load for my boy. Opinions? [Re: Zee] #190746 03/20/2018 11:37 PM
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He looks just like his father.

Re: Reduced Hunting Load for my boy. Opinions? [Re: spinsail] #190750 03/20/2018 11:51 PM
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 Originally Posted By: spinsail
He looks just like his father.


I make good looking kids.
;\)


"To Hell with efficiency, it's performance we want!" - Elmer Keith
Re: Reduced Hunting Load for my boy. Opinions? [Re: Zee] #190759 03/21/2018 1:40 AM
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Definately favors you in the face🤪

Neither gun should recoil enough to be too much for a 12yr old, if you eased him up to it in increments. You have time before it gets here. The braked 30-30AI gun should not be bad at all with good ear protection.


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Re: Reduced Hunting Load for my boy. Opinions? [Re: Zee] #190762 03/21/2018 2:18 AM
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What I have experienced with .243 bullets in reduced loads is they have a very abrupt velocity threshold. I mean, they don't seem to be as forgiving as the larger caliber bullets. My vote is the 30-30 AI with the 125gr SST or a Nosler B-T. Work the loads up gradually till he can tolerate a muzzle velocity of 2100 to 2300 fps and you essentially have a 300 Blackout fired from an AR. Those bullets have proven very effective at those speeds by countless hunters. Actually, your 500 S&W Encore with the mouse fart loads would work too. Just a thought.

Re: Reduced Hunting Load for my boy. Opinions? [Re: Mech 8] #190763 03/21/2018 2:26 AM
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I'll throw in a vote for the 243. He shoots it well, he's familiar with the chambering from past hunts, and it's deer.

Also, what's your boy's opinion? What does HE want to shoot??


A lot of people are like a slinky: Not much fun till you push them down the stairs!

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Re: Reduced Hunting Load for my boy. Opinions? [Re: Raptortrapper] #190767 03/21/2018 3:21 AM
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I appreciate what you are doing with your son. I did this with my children. The 30-30 will give you better and more choices.
You may not like the choice but you could use some cast bullets. Montanabulletworks.com has some good selections. 1200-1300 is good with cast and the 30-30 was designed using 160-165 gr bullets. You can easily go to 150gr and do well.
What I call a squirrel load will kill deer. Use a 115gr cast with 9.5grs of trailboss. Try it. Then as he gets use to this offer just 1 at a higher velocity or even a heavier bullet.
Let him decide how many or how much.

Re: Reduced Hunting Load for my boy. Opinions? [Re: cherokeetracker] #190773 03/21/2018 8:11 AM
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Zee, have you thought about trying the Barnes 110 gr bullet in a 30 30. It works well in the 300 blackout and others are using it in the 30 30 contender. That is what I have been playing with in my 30 30 contender this year and am getting good groups.


Michael Joe Moore
Re: Reduced Hunting Load for my boy. Opinions? [Re: REDHAWK1954] #190775 03/21/2018 11:54 AM
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One option is to get a brake for the 243.
It would be a game changer in terms of recoil.
I would just simply choose the one that he wants to shoot after he has had the opportunity to thoroughly play with both of them.
Recoil is not his friend. I don?t want to see him develop bad shooting habits


Ernie the Un-Tactical
Re: Reduced Hunting Load for my boy. Opinions? [Re: Ernie] #190777 03/21/2018 12:20 PM
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I vote for the .30-30 AI with 125 gr. bullets, and a mv of 2000 fps or so.

Re: Reduced Hunting Load for my boy. Opinions? [Re: REDHAWK1954] #190786 03/21/2018 3:03 PM
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 Originally Posted By: REDHAWK1954
Zee, have you thought about trying the Barnes 110 gr bullet in a 30 30. It works well in the 300 blackout and others are using it in the 30 30 contender. That is what I have been playing with in my 30 30 contender this year and am getting good groups.


X2 on the 110gn black tipped Barnes
With the excellent low velocity performance of those bullets designed for the 300BO (Barns says they need 1350 for expansion, but recommend 1450fps min for hunting), you could easily work up a mouse fart/deer lethal load for him. They are expensive, but probably cheaper then the ammo needed to work him through a flinch reflex in the future.

Re: Reduced Hunting Load for my boy. Opinions? [Re: Mech 8] #190798 03/21/2018 7:03 PM
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 Originally Posted By: Mech 8
Actually, your 500 S&W Encore with the mouse fart loads would work too. Just a thought.


When I first tested those loads, I too thought they were light enough my boy could even shoot them. Problem being the large grip on the Encore makes the trigger reach too long for him. Hell, it?s a stretch for ME even!


"To Hell with efficiency, it's performance we want!" - Elmer Keith
Re: Reduced Hunting Load for my boy. Opinions? [Re: Raptortrapper] #190800 03/21/2018 7:26 PM
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 Originally Posted By: Raptortrapper
IWhat does HE want to shoot??


Of course, he preferred the lighter recoiling .30-30 load. But, it would have to be upped to be effective.

Still, even with more powder, the Contender has a brake and stands the chance of having the least amount of recoil compared to the current .243 Win load.

But, if I reduced the .243 load as well..........


"To Hell with efficiency, it's performance we want!" - Elmer Keith
Re: Reduced Hunting Load for my boy. Opinions? [Re: REDHAWK1954] #190801 03/21/2018 7:47 PM
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 Originally Posted By: REDHAWK1954
Zee, have you thought about trying the Barnes 110 gr bullet in a 30 30. It works well in the 300 blackout and others are using it in the 30 30 contender. That is what I have been playing with in my 30 30 contender this year and am getting good groups.


I typically steer away from Barnes as they are stupid expensive when I can do the same for less.

Not saying they are bad bullets........I?m just a cheap skate.


"To Hell with efficiency, it's performance we want!" - Elmer Keith
Re: Reduced Hunting Load for my boy. Opinions? [Re: Ernie] #190802 03/21/2018 7:49 PM
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 Originally Posted By: Ernie
One option is to get a brake for the 243.
It would be a game changer in terms of recoil.
I would just simply choose the one that he wants to shoot after he has had the opportunity to thoroughly play with both of them.
Recoil is not his friend. I don?t want to see him develop bad shooting habits


I?d have to send the barrel off to get threaded. My buddy can?t do it because of the lug welded to the barrel for the break action.


"To Hell with efficiency, it's performance we want!" - Elmer Keith
Re: Reduced Hunting Load for my boy. Opinions? [Re: 500WE] #190803 03/21/2018 7:52 PM
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 Originally Posted By: 500WE
I vote for the .30-30 AI with 125 gr. bullets, and a mv of 2000 fps or so.


That might be the way to go.


"To Hell with efficiency, it's performance we want!" - Elmer Keith
Re: Reduced Hunting Load for my boy. Opinions? [Re: Zee] #190806 03/21/2018 10:18 PM
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I've had excellent luck with the Sierra 125 SPT moving around 2200 fps from a 308 win. That combo accounted for several deer. I imagine that bullet would do just as well out of the 30-30.

Myself, I'd rather put a moderate moving 30 caliber slug through something than a moderate moving 6mm slug.

Best of luck to your boy.

Last edited by Brenden; 03/21/2018 10:19 PM.
Re: Reduced Hunting Load for my boy. Opinions? [Re: Zee] #190807 03/21/2018 10:21 PM
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 Originally Posted By: Zee
 Originally Posted By: Ernie
One option is to get a brake for the 243.
It would be a game changer in terms of recoil.
I would just simply choose the one that he wants to shoot after he has had the opportunity to thoroughly play with both of them.
Recoil is not his friend. I don?t want to see him develop bad shooting habits


I?d have to send the barrel off to get threaded. My buddy can?t do it because of the lug welded to the barrel for the break action.


Rats!


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Re: Reduced Hunting Load for my boy. Opinions? [Re: Ernie] #190814 03/22/2018 12:47 AM
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Didn't like the idea of a cast bullet huh?

Re: Reduced Hunting Load for my boy. Opinions? [Re: cherokeetracker] #190815 03/22/2018 12:59 AM
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 Originally Posted By: cherokeetracker
Didn't like the idea of a cast bullet huh?


Trying to use what I have on hand. I have several hundred 125gr SST because I use it in multiple guns and cartridges.

I also have 110gr Nosler Varmageddon that I read does well at .300 BO velocity.

Might try that as well.

Anyway. Not blowing you off. Just trying to use stocked supply as opposed to more expenditures.


"To Hell with efficiency, it's performance we want!" - Elmer Keith
Re: Reduced Hunting Load for my boy. Opinions? [Re: Zee] #190834 03/22/2018 7:56 AM
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Zee, I loaded some of the 110 Nosler Varmageddon bullets behind 30 grains of Reloader 7 and they shot great groups out of my sweet 14 30 30 contender. I thought about using them for whitetail this fall but most people on this site though they were a poor choice. What do you think?

Last edited by REDHAWK1954; 03/22/2018 7:32 PM.

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Re: Reduced Hunting Load for my boy. Opinions? [Re: REDHAWK1954] #190836 03/22/2018 1:06 PM
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I would try the 125SST. They seem to be a good bullet,, comparing them to the 120 gr SST for the 6.8SPC. They work good on deer and hogs.

The 110 is designed for varmints and may not perform quite as well.

I do believe that I would be inclined to contact Hornady and check to see at what velocity the 120SST will operate at.
(meaning lowest velocity)

Re: Reduced Hunting Load for my boy. Opinions? [Re: cherokeetracker] #190837 03/22/2018 1:29 PM
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I called Hornady and they said to stay above 1,600 fps impact velocity for reliable expansion with the 125gr SST.


"To Hell with efficiency, it's performance we want!" - Elmer Keith
Re: Reduced Hunting Load for my boy. Opinions? [Re: REDHAWK1954] #190840 03/22/2018 1:44 PM
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 Originally Posted By: REDHAWK1954
See, I loaded some of the 110 Nosler Varmageddon bullets behind 30 grains of Reloader 7 and they shot great groups out of my sweet 14 30 30 contender. I thought about using them for whitetail this fall but most people on this site though they were a poor choice. What do you think?


What velocity are you getting?


"To Hell with efficiency, it's performance we want!" - Elmer Keith
Re: Reduced Hunting Load for my boy. Opinions? [Re: Zee] #190844 03/22/2018 1:59 PM
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Critical details are often different, but there is a fair amount of 300BO testing on youtube. Below is one with the TAC-TX and Varmageddon side by side. Nosler states 2150fps on their load, but don't give the barrel length used to measure that. Maybe if you loaded it down below that it wouldn't explode on impact and you would get more then 10" of penetration (2150 with 110gn pill in 30-30AI will already be quite loaded down). How about the 110gn V-max or Z-max? I found the V-max to be quite accurate in my 30-30 loads at 2500fps with 14" barrel.

Based on the available evidence, I was comfortable with the tac-tx at pistol velocities on deer without terminal testing, but I would want to do some terminal testing on varmint bullets before setting a young one up with a chance to wound and lose a deer. Unless I wanted a challenge(and since I'm lazy) and needed to prove the nay-sayers wrong, I would buy 2 boxes of the Barnes, load some to acceptable accuracy and velocity and let him use those for the next year or two (telling him to avoid the tx heart shot) until he grows into something heavier and move on to other projects.

If you do go the varmint route, please post your findings as I think a lot of folks would be quite interested and I'm sure they would be quite thorough.

The video
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p3o4DReyJqw

Last edited by karl; 03/22/2018 2:36 PM.
Re: Reduced Hunting Load for my boy. Opinions? [Re: ] #190851 03/22/2018 2:53 PM
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 Originally Posted By: Daavs363
A good shot at the boy! I look you use different shooting rest. Does this play a big role in the accuracy of the shot?


Yes.
I am a big fan of a good rest.


"To Hell with efficiency, it's performance we want!" - Elmer Keith
Re: Reduced Hunting Load for my boy. Opinions? [Re: Zee] #190852 03/22/2018 2:57 PM
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Yes, Very impressive shooting from your son! Way to set him up to make good shots and give him the confidence to connect come hunting season.

Re: Reduced Hunting Load for my boy. Opinions? [Re: Zee] #190865 03/22/2018 7:19 PM
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I do not have a way to check the velocity but my quess would be about 2400 fps.


Michael Joe Moore
Re: Reduced Hunting Load for my boy. Opinions? [Re: REDHAWK1954] #190866 03/22/2018 8:06 PM
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Hmmm, not having any experience with this bullet, I?ve no clue what a good ?penetration velocity would be. But, I suspect a little slower than that. Just a WAG (wild ass guess), though.

I think I need to load some up at different speeds and shoot some water jugs. No, not a good ballistic medium. But, if I can get it to hold together and go through a few jugs in one piece, we might be onto something.

Then.........our decision can be a SWAG!!!

Scientific..............wild ass guess.

Ha!


"To Hell with efficiency, it's performance we want!" - Elmer Keith
Re: Reduced Hunting Load for my boy. Opinions? [Re: REDHAWK1954] #190869 03/22/2018 8:20 PM
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 Originally Posted By: REDHAWK1954
I do not have a way to check the velocity but my quess would be about 2400 fps.


On a side note, this is a relatively inexpensive chronograph and has worked well for me. I also have a MagnetoSpeed Chronograph. But, use that one for rifles as Muzzle rise is a little rough on it.

https://www.midwayusa.com/product/626107/caldwell-ballistic-precision-chronograph

If you are even interested in a chronograph.

For years, folks told me I needed a chronograph to safely handload and I told them it was bunk. I still believe that.

But, on a whim, I bought the MagnetoSpeed and it has changed my worked. NOT in safe handloading. Which one can assuredly do without a chronograph. But, in understanding internal/external/terminal ballistics and how they work for or against each other.

It is knowledge at your fingertips and has become an invaluable tool to me in understanding WHY I get the results I do. Not for handloading. But, the end result and how to get there.

Foot pounds of energy is a thing of the past. Don?t even care what it is anymore. It?s all mass and speed to me. Couple that with bullet design and you open a whole new world of terminal ballistics.

Just a thought.


"To Hell with efficiency, it's performance we want!" - Elmer Keith
Re: Reduced Hunting Load for my boy. Opinions? [Re: Zee] #190870 03/22/2018 8:26 PM
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I am out of town, but plan on getting on with the .30cal 110/125gr testing this weekend.

Science!!!


"To Hell with efficiency, it's performance we want!" - Elmer Keith
Re: Reduced Hunting Load for my boy. Opinions? [Re: Zee] #190878 03/22/2018 11:07 PM
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I have a birthday coming up in May and plan to get a chronograph then.


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Re: Reduced Hunting Load for my boy. Opinions? [Re: REDHAWK1954] #190883 03/23/2018 1:50 AM
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I'm using a 125 grain Nosler Ballistic Tip in my 308 from a load I got from KRal. (Thanks again.) These work great on deer and hogs.


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Re: Reduced Hunting Load for my boy. Opinions? [Re: Okie Hunter] #190905 03/23/2018 3:24 PM
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If you have access to the 130 gr Speer h.p bullet try that in the 30-30. Has worked for me and shoots very very well out of my 30-30.


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Re: Reduced Hunting Load for my boy. Opinions? [Re: junebug] #190922 03/23/2018 10:52 PM
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I just tried the 125gr SST and a reduced load of H4895.

Hodgdon says 35gr is a max load from a 14? Contender @ right on 2,200 fps.

I loaded some at 25gr and 30gr of powder.

The results were not satisfactory yet.

25gr = 1,450 fps
30gr = 1,750 fps

Going to try 32gr tomorrow. I?d like to have a MV of right around 2,000 fps.


"To Hell with efficiency, it's performance we want!" - Elmer Keith
Re: Reduced Hunting Load for my boy. Opinions? [Re: Zee] #190966 03/25/2018 1:46 AM
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Alright, I tried 32gr with the 125gr SST and still didn?t hit my target velocity of 2,000 FPS. Only reaching 1,850 fps. So, gonna add another grain and see what happens.


"To Hell with efficiency, it's performance we want!" - Elmer Keith
Re: Reduced Hunting Load for my boy. Opinions? [Re: Zee] #190967 03/25/2018 1:52 AM
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Tried 34gr of H4895 with the 110gr Nosler Varmageddon and hit 2,000 fps!!!



So, I fired it into water jugs to see what happened and it penetrated 3 gallons, coming to rest in the 3rd. At 60 yards!!



The bullet actually held together and expanded. Granted, all the way to the base. But, I think it could be a usable hunting load at this Muzzle velocity. Anything more, could result in some catastrophic failure.







"To Hell with efficiency, it's performance we want!" - Elmer Keith
Re: Reduced Hunting Load for my boy. Opinions? [Re: Zee] #190970 03/25/2018 2:05 AM
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Sounds like a start


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Re: Reduced Hunting Load for my boy. Opinions? [Re: Ernie] #190973 03/25/2018 2:12 AM
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 Originally Posted By: Ernie
Sounds like a start


This may be our practice load for the spring and summer. Recoil is minimal and it fireforms my AI cases. So, I get two for two.

Come fall, he should be ready for a little more recoil from a 33gr/125gr load/bullet and if he?s not, I still think this 110gr load would take a deer under 100 yards.


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Re: Reduced Hunting Load for my boy. Opinions? [Re: Zee] #190977 03/25/2018 2:36 AM
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This is a good start. I think the plan will come together.
Did your boy shoot any of these loads yet?

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