THERE HAS TO BE AN OPTIMUM VELOCITY RANGE FOR HARD CAST LEAD BULLETS FOR THE BEST COMPROMISE BETWEEN BULLET INTEGRITY (MINIMAL DEFORMATION) AND PENETRATION.

THE TOP RIGHT HAND BULLET WAS A 325gr WFN SHOT OUT OF A 5 1/2 INCH CUSTOM 45 COLT TLA REVOLVER @ APPROX, 1,325 fps INTO A LIVE WATER BUFFALO AT ABOUT 30 YARDS, AND, AS YOU CAN SEE THE BULLET NOSE WAS BEGINNING TO BE COMPROMISED, BUT, AS I RECALL, THE PENETRATION WAS ACCEPTABLE. THE LOWER BULLET WAS A 200gr FN SHOT OUT OF A 357 MAX CONTENDER @ ABOUT 1,750fps INTO THE SHOULDER OF A WHITETAIL BUCK @ 95 YARDS. THIS BULLET's INTEGRITY WAS SERIOUSLY COMPROMISED AND IT DID NOT PENETRATE STRAIGHT. I HAVE NOTICED WITH MY 45 COLT OUTDOORSMAN LOADS (A 250gr OTBC RNFP @ 1,350 fps) THAT BULLET INTEGRITY STARTS TO SUFFER (PRIMARILY SOME NOSE DEFORMATION) ON SHOTS AT 60 YARDS AND UNDER. SO MY THINKING IS THAT THE OPTIMUM VELOCITY FOR BULLET INTEGRITY AND PENETRATION MAY BE SOMEWHERE UNDER 1,300 fps.

I KNOW A LOT OF YOU GUYS OUT THERE HUNT A LOT MORE THAN I HAVE, OR DO, WITH CAST BULLETS AND ARE BOUND TO HAVE MORE EXPERIENCE AND RECOMMENDATIONS. SO HOW FAST IS TOO FAST?

45man

Great Topic!

The buff bullet (325gr wfn), was the hit in the sholder and did it strike any large bones? Oh and what was the muzzle velocity?

Thanks
Mark

I now use speed strictly to do calculations, and to make sure my loads are consistent. I prefer accuracy, no matter what speed it's at. Granted, ya got to have enough speed to get the bullet there, but after that, there's an obvious line between gaining penetration, and gaining recoil. I saw some guys on this forum discussing that, and had to see for myself. Went to the range and figured out what they were talking about.

MARK: MV WAS, AS I RECALL, A LITTLE OVER 1,325 fps, BUT THIS WAS MANY YEARS BACK, AND MY MEMORY FAILS ME. I BELIEVE THE 1st SHOT WAS A SHOULDER SHOT AND HE RAN A SHORT DISTANCE INTO A THICKET, I THEN DROPPED HIM WITH A BULLET INTO AND/OR ALONG THE SPINE. DO NOT EVEN RECALL WHICH OF THE 2 BULLETS THIS IS. DID NOT DO MUCH OF AN AUTOPSY, IF ANY AT ALL, PROBABLY DUG THAT BULLET OUT FROM UNDER THE SKIN SOMEWHERE, AND THE VAQUEROS AT THE YO PICKED HIM UP AND TOOK HIM TO TOWN. I KEEP THOSE 2 BUFFALO BULLETS IN MY DESK DRAW AT THE OFFICE. ON THE LEAD BULLET YOU CAN TELL IT HAD STARTED TO LOSE BULLET INTEGRITY.

...and at what weight can we then slow it down and allow the heavy bullet to do it's job at a lower velocity and still get deep penetration and not have nose deformation from too much velocity? For example:

.500L 450gr at 1350fps compared to 540gr at just under 1100.

I don't think there's a definite answer, just too many variables in hunting to nail it down other than a ball park figure, even then things can happen that none of us can explain.
Again, I can only go off my own experience but the problem I've seen most times with cast is when a guy messes up & loses an animal he goes home & makes his ammo hotter. To me, this is going the wrong way, a big heavy cast bullet, no matter how tough can only stand so much strain & then it's going to fail but if you let it work in the 1000-1300 fps range where most alloys are in their comfort zone you will have a successful out come, my experience.
Before chronographs, I always started out by shooting a mild, book load & increasing until it started to get nice & tight, then when it started to open back up I stopped & called it good.
Later on when I got my first chronograph I found out that most of those loads with heavy bullets were almost always in the 1100-1200 fps range.
Two things were happening here, one was, that seemed to be the "sweet" spot for many of the heavy cast bullets & it also seemed to be my "recoil" sweet spot. I could & did shoot many loads much hotter in the early years but my 1100-1200 fps loads were zipping through deer, elk, bears, antelope, lions, moose, hogs. Why punish myself with more recoil in a short range, iron sighted gun that was killing everything with ease by going up the scale, made no sense!
I've probably taken somewhere around 20 head of game with jacketed handgun bullets, not many, but back in the day there weren't many good six gun bullets to pick from & cast were so much easier to make & shoot by the thousands.
Since recoil goes up about 3-1 compared to velocity why punish yourself & your gun to make a 50 yd or under shot on a 200 lb deer? These are just my thoughts, agree or disagree. Like I said earlier, that's why they make chocolate & vanilla.
I always think it's best to go up in caliber & bullet rather than stress a smaller one. Heavy bullets, reasonable velocity & great accuracy will get you there, again just my thoughts.

Dick

DICK: IF YOU CAN, PLEASE PROVIDE INFO ON THE TYPE OF CAST BULLETS YOU USED AND/OR THAT YOU THINK THE SWEET SPOT FOR IS IN THE 1,100 - 1,200 fps RANGE, e.g. 240 SWC's IN THE 44 MAG, OR 300 WFN's IN THE 45 COLT, OR WHAT? MY 2 LOW END 45 COLT LOADS DO AROUND 925 fps AND 1,350 fps IN 5 1/2 INCH BISLEYS WITH 250gr OTBC RNFP's, BUT I AM THINKING I MAY NEED TO DEVELOP A LOAD IN THE 1,100 - 1,200 fps RANGE.

As Dick said, my 45 Colt shooting 335gr hardcast came in to a sweet spot at 1075 fps. I went about it by starting just above the lowest load listed, and went up, 5 shots at a time, from there. I got to where my groups were great, and again as Dick stated, pressing them further made the group start to open up. I went back to the last "best group" and called it good. I THEN ran it through my Ohler to see what my average was, and also my standard deviation.

The sweet spot I found for my cast bullet loads for my 45 Colt was right at 1,150 with a 320 grain LBT style with a very wide meplat cast out of wheel weights and quenched in water. Out of my 7-1/2? Blackhawk they create 6 shot groups at 25 yards that touch when I do my part. I?ve always gotten straight line penetration with them and have had no problem sending them through both shoulders on hogs and they make nice round 45 cal holes going in and coming out. I have not been able to recover any to determine if the bullet is deforming much, but at those speeds and looking at the evidence during the autopsy I don?t think I am having any significant deformation. I wouldn?t be afraid to send them through an elk at that speed, but would need further testing before I sent them through anything large and nasty that could do me harm.


Eric

This is a great topic. I think I'll defer to those with much more experience than I. One such man is Marshall over at Beartooth bullets. I've used his bullets in my .357 and .44 and I love them. He seems to agree that somewhere close to 1100 fps is ideal. See the below link for a very comprehensive article on the subject.

http://beartoothbullets.com/tech_notes/archive_tech_notes.htm/61


"Putting aside game outside the lower 48 states, and looking at strictly deer, pronghorn and average black bear sized critters, an effective hunting load need not be over 1100-1200 fps with careful bullet selection. In fact, both my experience, those of hunting partners, and countless customers attests to the fact that cast bullet loads with muzzle velocities in the 1000 to 1100 fps category are truly amazing in their terminal performance!" Marshall Stanton

This is the "thought that counts" !

Rey, this is what I've done with cast bullets for over 50 years & it's done pretty well for me with very little adjustment. I've posted this formula on several forums & sometimes you need to bump it up a point or down a point but it's seemed to be really dependable for me on game up through hogs, many elk, my bull moose & African plains game, beyond that I can't offer any advice because I have no experience on the megatrons.
Here's what I've always done as far as alloys but remember one thing about wheel weights, they've changed over the years & that's why you "might" need to juggle them up or down one point from what I post. Earlier WW's had a bit more antimony than later WW's, like 4% for the older & the later one's something like 2% so there's a slight difference making the old one's a bit more brittle.
So, here's my formula & I always start out at 1000 fps.

1000 fps I use 70% wheel weights & 30% pure lead
1100 fps I use 80% wheel weights & 20% pure lead
1200 fps I use 90% wheel weights & 10% pure lead

Above 1200 fps I just used straight WW alloy, air cooled.

Going the other way now.

900 fps I used 60% wheel weights & 40% pure lead
800 fps I used 50% wheel weights & 50% pure lead

This has always been really close to ideal to get good penetration on lower 48 big game, good accuracy, accuracy & zero to very minor leading with correct fitting in the throats.
As I said, you might have to juggle this up or down one point depending on your supply of wheel weights.
I've never felt the need to add expensive tin & in the photo's below are some of the animals taken including a few elk with the 41 & 44 magnum with full penetration, one was almost length ways with the 41 magnum & a 230 gr Keith bullet & it did exit.
The bear is a 6 1/2 ft bear taken with a 44 flat top OM with an exit (one of seven)
The bullet is my normal 70/30 alloy & was one of few recovered from a very large feral hog after pulverizing both front shoulders from a 480 or 475. Almost 1" expansion & only lost 2 grs!!














Dick

IN 41 & 44 MAG AND 45 COLT, WHAT ARE GOOD BULLET WEIGHTS FOR DEER, ANTELOPE AND AVERAGE BLACK BEARS? WHAT ABOUT FOR BIGGER BLACK BEARS AND ELK? SOME OF YOU REFER TO "HEAVY" BULLETS BUT I AM NOT SURE WHAT YOU MEAN BY THAT.

45 Colt is one of my favorites. I like the heavier bullets in all my guns. In 45 Colt, I prefer the 335gr hardcast from Cast Performance.

I have no experience with the 41 or 44.

Rey, again I can just give you my opinion, take it for what it'w worth. In the 41 magnum I've used a 230 gr Keith bullet from a very old Saeco mold for about 45 years & have no idea how many deer I've taken with it but it would be dozens for sure. Also elk & 1 bear. The elk with the shoulder rig laying on it & me in the red shirt & you can see a piece of fat sticking out of the left hip. She was trotting up through the sagebrush & spotted my mule tied to a tree above me. When she stopped she was almost facing me but I could slip a 41 slug just behind the right front shoulder with my 8 3/8's Nickel S&W.
The bullet got one lung, the intestines hit a kidney & exited just in front of that left hip, she ran in a little circle for 5-6 seconds & piled up. It almost went through her length ways.
The cow elk that's laying in the snow was taken at 168 yds with an OM Ruger 45 & a 260 gr Keith & 23.5 grs of H110. My buddy "Duck" was shooting her with the range finder as I set up on my walking stick & got lucky with a double lung shot that threw blood in all directions, she was down & out in 20 yds.
Not sure I can tell you what a hard cast bullet is, not sure anyone has the same idea on hard cast. I make my bullets as soft as I can make them & still maintain accuracy. If accuracy starts to fall off & I don't think my load is fast enough then I make the bullet a bit harder. My #1 goal is accuracy & I always get exits.
My last cow elk was very big & was taken with a 250 gr LBT 41 magnum bullet at (I think) 74 yds. The bullet broke both front shoulders & exited, she never took a single step.
The 250 gr in a 41 is a heavy bullet in my opinion, a 280-300 gr bullet is a heavy bullet in a 44 magnum & a 275-325 gr bullet in the 45 Colt is a heavy weight, just my opinion.
I'm guessing you've taken a great deal of game with 45's & have a pretty good handle on what does & doesn't work as does several others here on the forum.
I do think you can "over bullet" any caliber & it's time to move up to something bigger, I'll say it one more time, just my opinion.

Dick

Rey, these were taken in Montana, Wyoming & Utah using a 357 Maximum, a 44 special Bisley, a 41 mangum, a very special 7 1/2" 44 special Bisley & a Ruger 45 Colt. All using cast bullets at around 1100-1200 fps except for the 357 Maximum. I used a 204 gr cast bullet at about 1450 fps on some of those doe's & a Utah doe antelope at 123 yds.
The Montana doe tags are $75 & I usually buy 2-3 & use a different gun on each one & shoot one a day along the Beaverhead River.













Dick

Dick, I have a question concerning a recent purchase of some bullets. It is a cast hollow point 225gr in the 45 caliber.
Cast with 2-2-96 alloy (tin-antimony-lead)
My question is about how fast should I go for with these? I was thinking about 1000 FPS should be max?,, but haven't loaded any yet.

And yes, I did read what you said about the accuracy part. I may have to slow them down to 950 but figured you might know of a good starting point.
My throats on the Pistol are all .4525 and usually I get little or no leading with the hard cast bullets I have used. Barrel is a custom one.
Charles

DICK: BTW, I REALLY ADMIRE ALL THE KILLING YOU HAVE DONE WITH OPEN SIGHT REVOLVERS OVER THE YEARS. THERE WERE PROBABLY MANY TIMES YOU WISHED YOU HAD A LONGER RANGE SCOPED HANDGUN BUT YOU OBVIOUSLY STUCK WITH THE OPEN SIGHT REVOLVERS.

Charles, that should be a very good bullet at 1000 fps but I'm guessing with a good barrel you can exceed that with no problem if the bullets are flat base instead of bevel base.
You'll just have to load some & give them a test drive. The 45 is a superb game killer & does it with modest recoil. I've taken 4 elk with mine. All with iron sights & Keith bullets, except for that calf in the above photo, it was with a 325 gr LBT in my 5 1/2" Bisley.

Dick

Thank you Dick. I am excited about the bullet since it is a Keith style SWC-HP Flat base.
Pistol is the Ruger Bisley with 4 5/8 barrel.
Hopefully will get to load Monday.

Charles

Charles

If that is the GT bullet I'm getting great accuracy with no leading at 1025 fps in my OM 7.5" Blachawk. GT is using good lube and I've been pretty happy with their bullets. They are pretty soft. I thought that HP would be good for white tails but didn't use them this past fall.

I've seen a few 45's that don't like that bullet however. Good luck with yours.

Dan

Yes it is the GT bullet. We had a lengthy phone conversation before I ordered anything and felt that these would probably work. Yep, we will have to see how the shorty likes em. My barrel seems to produce faster velocities than expected. The only leading I ever experienced with it, was from some cowboy bullets. And,,That may have been, from me running them a little fast. If I can find an accurate load then I am going to try them on a whitetail for sure.

Charles

I have used that bullet with 13gr/HS-6 in my 5 1/2" and 7 1/2" SBH with great results. Caution Ruger only Load

Thanks, This was one of the powders I was going to try.

10gr of Unique
14-14.5gr Power Pistol
13-14gr of HS-6
19-21.5 2400
22gr N110

I have some OLD Hodgdon data that lists higher than what is posted. I will start at what I posted.
dhom: Your load should be from 1150-right under 1200FPS (SWAG)(depending upon which barrel length) and that sounds right about where this bullet should be in a sweet spot.
Dick: is saying the same thing. suggested around 1000FPS and should be able go up from that. (VERY MUCH EXPERIENCED)
This is encouraging.

dhom Did you harvest a whitetail with this load?

Here's a few more old photo's of elk, mules, bears, a very large badger taken with the OM 41 magnum shorty, same gun I used on the 2 Texas Javelina.
The 2 elk were taken with an OM flat top 44 magnum & the 250 Keith. The one next to the house was taken close to home, the other bull was taken along the Selway River where we used to pack in almost every year before the wolves moved in.
Four of us were packing out a couple of elk & 2 of us had got seperated from the other 2 guys by maybe a mile. When me & Eddy came around a bend in the trail at a place called Upper Crossing there was this bull standing right in the river drinking. This is a favorite crossing place for elk, we've taken a couple others there before.
Anyway, Eddy had already shot one & I ran past him with my flat top as the bull ran to the far side & stopped. He was in a bad place because it was almost all shale rock & hard to climb. I hit him at an angling shot & he humped up & I hit him again through both lungs & he fell in the shale & slid to the edge of the water. The distance was about 60-65 yds.
I had to unload the packs from my mule & ride across the Selway River & rope the bull & float him acoss. This didn't go to well with my mule, the current was pulling pretty hard & I ended up getting pretty wet!
Longer story on the other bull, for another time.










Dick

Wouldn't that be an oxymoron?

Dang, Dick. You are the epitome of the handgun hunter before handgun hunting was "cool". Good on ya, Man!

Cherokeetracker Got to shoot a doe approx. 120 lbs. The shot was 65 yds and hit 1 rib going in and 1 rib leaving. No bullet recovery but definitely showed signs of expansion. The bullet was cast 20:1 and had a GC. It weighed 315 grains. I choose a heavy bullet because of expansion. Just wanted to make sure I had enough weight for complete penetration.

dhom
Sounds good I have been shooting the "Leadhead" 335gr LBT. harvested 2 deer with it last Season. It is a good bullet and is accurate to longer ranges. with 21.5gr of H110 it gives me 1200FPS That's with the 4 5/8 barrel. Just wanted to try to find a nice HP in case I want a change up. Not used to shooting cast HPs, I had a question about it this "formula" of alloy, and lead etc.
Who knows if I can get my Colt up and running again before Season begins, I might be able to use this bullet in it also.

Rey ask this question and I think it got lost midst my question.


Charles

If I could retrieve all the other photo's from Photobucket I could fill several more pages. I did get some of them but can't remember how I did it!!!!!! Bummer.

Dick

This is an interesting thread. The deer I took last year was with a powder coated 240 Keith SWC at 1035fps ... long story, but at the time I thought it was a tad hotter. I think my new project will be to add another 1/2 grain of Unique and see if accuracy holds.

Some years ago John Linebaugh did a series of comparison tests with heavy weight cast bullets. He concluded that "...a dependable cast slug, not too hard, not too soft, at a moderate velocity not to exceed 1300 fps and let caliber and bullet weight do the job..." He went on to state that his preference was 1200 fps. I load between 1100 and 1200 fps, depending on caliber. I prefer 1100 fps in my 45/70 and 480 Ruger revolvers and 1200 fps in everything else.

I?ve used pure wheel weights water quenched up to 1400 FPS with excellent results on Alaskan Yukon moose with 50 plus inch spreads as well as grizzly.

John is correct, as velocity goes up bullet hardness has to go with it. Although I prefer to shoot my cast bullets as soft as I can & still get accuracy once you go so far speed wise you have to raise the BHN of your bullets.
Here's 3 different targets I shot with one of my 480's a few years ago just to prove a point. The first target is 25 yds, the second target is 50 yds with 2 shots going a tick low but still a decent group at 50 yds with iron sights.
The third group is the same load but the bullets weren't water quenched & you can see how the group opened up, even at 25 yds.
It all goes back to matching the hardness to the velocity. Almost forgot, Idaho is probably having it's first Grizzly hunt in over 50 years this fall, hope I get lucky! Only 3 hours away!






Dick

I've done a little reading and it appears that they would only allow 1 Boar to be killed in Idaho? Is that correct?

Snyd, yes the 3 states are getting the ok for a hunt this fall but Montana is going to pass this first time around, not sure why. Idaho is going to go with one permit, again not sure why, we have lots of bears! Wyoming is going with 24 bears!!
This isn't a done deal for sure but it sounds like this is the way it's going to play out the first year (fall hunt)

Dick

If you can find a copy of John Linebaugh's article "Gun Notes: A Common Sense Look at Handgun Hunting" it reinforces a number of the points raised in this thread,

Like so many others here I always chased that speed years ago, now all but my varmint revolvers are as has been stated, 1000 to around 1300 fps max, most 1150 to 1200 with heavy for caliber bullets, and seem to have better results than them early years, imagine that?

I also find the last couple years have started using reflex sights, as them most productive hours of first and last light I just can't find the sights on the dark background. I am sure as I continue to age there will be even more changes.

In Tn where I live, TWRA wants hunters to use expanding bullets- so I try to... I run the ballistics of my rounds through a program and try find out where what load is going 1200 fps and at what distance which should let the bullet at least try to expand...all my bullets are cast; cup points, penta points and various HP. If the bullet is plain base-- I WD, if the bullet is HP I let it AC
If the 1200 fps is farther than I want to shoot --I will sight the gun in at a shorter distance--