My 45 Colt load is 25 gr of I4227 with 250 XTPs. It clocks 1250 fps. It prints 1 hole ragged groups from the bench at 50 yards.

Ruger SBH Hunter 7.5
Burris FF1

CMNASH's RECENT BRAGGGING BOARD POST OF HIS 2 PIECE RECOVERED WFN "HISTORIC" CAST BULLET MADE ME THINK THAT GUYS NEED TO REVIEW THIS MOST INTERESTING TOPIC AGAIN.

320 grain .44 loaded by Reeds Ammo to a claimed but unverified 1200 fps.

The bullet struck a 550 lb Highland bull low in the shoulder at about 30 yards. The base was recovered from the offside hide, while the nose fragment remained in the on side shoulder.

That result is why we started the bovine bash. Now imagine trying to bring down a cape buff with that. There are much better bullets. Im sure an elk would die with that with your shooting matthew, but it might add alot to the pack out if you recover it. Id prefer it going down ?right now? than going down 800 more vertical feet to pack it up and out.

I concur. I carried that bullet to elk country last fall. If I had been able to close to sixgun distance, I might have placed one in a bull elk. I think now, that he might have very well walked my butt all over that country.

Thats also why i get a kick out of the elite, usually western, hunters that criticize fences feeders, stands, etc. but mostly fenced exotic hunts. These serve a huge use besides hunting and fun, but ample opportunities to test and undo the horrible advice/dogmas of years gone by. I know more than one hunter that wishes they wouldve seen results from this hunt or the bovine bash before losing expensive animals and trophy fees.

This is the problem though. Linebaugh hasnt shot much and quite frankly doesnt know how bullets work or damage is done. This last year we compared 475 440 wfn?s with a huge meplat, the biggest in the business, shot at 1100 fps vs 357 mags with 140 gr barnes at 1450 fps and the 357 created a better wound channel. A revolver isnt just a punch press and the idea that that is the way to go is only touted by those that havent done much of it to begin with. Working on one or two animals doesnt make for a dogma worth adhering to. I shot a watusi, which is no cape buffalo, with a 440gr 500 smith at jrh velocities 1384 fps and it obviously lost its nose profile and took a 60 degree turn and exited the size of a pencil hole and the chase was on. When we caught up to them we couldnt even tell which one was the wounded one until my cousin picked up a trickle of blood in one of their nostrils. Put it down in 10 yards with a barnes xbp 250 out of a 454. According to the dogma its supposed to be the other way around, but its not.

I have a feeling theres alot of animals running around africa that were never recovered, but those stories are rarely told. I witnessed one of them. Rarely in the world of dangerous game hunting is a solid the best answer and ive yet to find a situation where a cast is.

Blasphemy!!!! Hahahahaha

Well said

Bullet-performance is the key. A good cast-bullet that penetrates through the vital living area of the animal will kill that animal. A heart-shot animal using a cast-bullet will die. If a cast-bullet deflects or looses its nose it is not going to kill predictably. A Punch bullet or Cutting Edge Bullet will hold together and penetrate like a good hard-cast bullet has shown it can also do. And an A-frame through the heart or through the skull will kill also. So I echo the Bond film and state clearly, live and let die. LOL

Im not sure i understand what you are saying?

To reply, I mean the given being bullet placement, then bullet performance on said game is what matters. Not the supposed reputation of a type of bullet. Now logic dictates a solid bullet i.e. Cutting Edge Bullet or Punch Bullet, will not deform and lose performance as expanding bullets may or may not exhibit. And the A-frame bullet is boringly predictable in its exhibited performance after entering the hide and interior plumbing of the animal. But hard cast that performs well will do as well as the CEB or Punch bullet as long as it holds together and does not damage its meplat as it penetrates.
Does that make anymore sense?

Yes, i get it now. Much clearer. Unfortunately u cant tell when the hardcast will do that. No sense finding out it wont hold together once its thru the shoulder of a buffalo

I agree with the unpredictability of the meplat as it makes contact with heavy bone. All the more reason for water quenching and using alloys that will be tough but not brittle. The Garret formula of alloy used for the Garret, and now owned by Ashley Emerson, Hammerhead design is ultra reliable.
So discounting cast bullets as unreliable offhand is not fair or just. In my honest opinion of never say never...

Ive seen garrets fracture before. I agree on the issue of using a reliable alloy......like copper! How many big animals have you shot that you have based these conclusions on?

Trying to discount me is what that question is meant to do. I will not retreat. I am a teacher and my funds do not allow me to experience world travel. And dispatching bovine flesh is not big game, but still revealing as to what kills, as is dropping bison which would be a traditional big game animal. So I will endorse good hard-cast bullets at adequate velocities, as has been proven effective in my arena of life.
I know what I have seen used kills effectively and I know normally docile bovine can become very aggressive in a split-second. But killing is just killing and even Karamojo Bell, who killed over a thousand elephants with most falling to a 7x57 using a 175 grain FMJ bullet. In his writings he self-disclosed that some elephants mysteriously were unharmed after he had made a precise aimed shot, and he was lucky enough to survive some close calls to tell the tale when all did not go as planned.
So after about a thousand elephants taken, he still had some things happen that surprised him. He theorized that the 7mm bullet would bend or deflect enough to miss the brain. So he upped his arsenal to a 318 Westley Richards and the problem was solved, in his mind. He even wrote later, after the .308 was made into a factory round, that a .308 with 240 grain FMJ bullets running about 2300 fps, would be his new choice for braining elephants.
And domestic fenced in bulls have killed unarmed men working with them, as an uncle of John Ross lost his life to a domestic bull for example. This is why John Ross eventually made a special run of 5-inch barreled 500 S&W X-frame revolvers with no muzzle-brake or ports. His belief in having a carry-piece for protection that would have saved his uncle's life was so great, that he ordered a minimum run from Smith and Wesson made to his special requirements. I have spoken with him over the phone. He sales them, but he may have run out by now.
I digress though. Killing provides experience, but it is not the only requirement for validity for sharing on this site.

Not discounting you. So shooting waterbuffalo, cape buffalo, eland, elk, etc isnt? Now im really confused. Proven, i dont think so. What will potentially work, and which works well, and which works everytime are all different questions.

See these two animals? Same breed, both adult bulls, both thick-skinned. The top one was killed in Argentina and was free-ranging. The other, a blonde specimen, was killed in Hondo, Texas behind a high fence. Now guess which experience was more challenging and exponentially more dangerous. It was the big blonde one. We played a game of cat and mouse with him for three days before "dispatching" him in which time he stalked us repeatedly and snuck up on us from behind more times than I care to count. Very unsettling, and very aggressive. Not all high fence operations are petting zoos. I have had fairly docile bovine bashing experiences, and more than a few that were very dicey.

Sorry for the thread hijacking.





I have used Garrett loads on a few animals and have been present when they were used on a few others, so I feel I can speak with a modicum of credibility when I say that they are probably the toughest commercially cast bullets available. They can and do fracture on occasion and while they killed everything I have seen them used on graveyard dead, you still cannot beat the consistency of the LeHighs, CEBs, or Kodiak Punches. That's just a given. The Garrett loads are however, fantastic (just wish they had a bigger meplat!).

JEFF460: I LOVE WFN BULLETS, I SHOOT A LOT OF CAST BULLETS, AND USUALLY HAVE ONE OF MY RUGER BISLEY 45 COLTS LOADED WITH CAST BULLETS FOR WHEN OUT HUNTING WITH ANOTHER HANDGUN OR DOING RANCH CHORES, BUT EVEN THE BEST CAST BULLETS HAVE THEIR LIMITATIONS WHEN USED ON LARGER GAME, OR WHEN DRIVEN TOO FAST. CMNASH's 320gr 44 MAG WFN CAME APART AT ONLY A MV OF 1,200fps. REED USUALLY PUTS OUT GOOD AMMO BUT THIS LOAD/BULLET DID NOT HOLD UP. IF YOU ARE GOING AFTER AN EXPENSIVE ANIMAL, OR YOUR LIFE MAY DEPEND ON FAIL SAFE PERFORMANCE, USE A PREMIUM BULLET WITH PREDICATABLE BULLET INTEGRITY AND PERFORMANCE. SORRY TO SAY, BUT IMHO THERE ARE NO "PREMIUM" CAST BULLETS.

I stand by Randy Garret's, and now Ashley Emerson's, made hand-cast lead bullets with alloy that will not break, but rather bend. The refinement of the bullet and loading of 44 magnum cartridges by Randy Garret have now been passed on to Ashley Emerson.
Ashley bought the company and added 45 Colt and 454 Casull loading's to the aforementioned 44 magnum cartridges. 45/70 hard cast and other bullet-types are also available. Proving the worth of both hard cast and jacketed bullets by way of Ashley Emerson offering BOTH types for top-of-the-line performance.

Actually, he has quite a few left if anyone wants to buy one.

Killing provides experience, but it is not the only requirement for validity for sharing on this site. [/quote]


Yes, anyone can have an opinion but the weight that opinion carries is directly proportional to their experience! Reminds me of watching mma and boxing fights with people that never fought telling us all during a tyson fight what they would have done to beat mike tyson or roy jones and guys that never grappled telling all those in the room what they think an opponent should do to anderson silva. But but i hit a bag in my garage!?!?! I know this cuz a cousins uncle fought golden gloves etc etc.

As such then you WERE stating by your question of me earlier, if I did not have ENOUGH personal killing experience, then my opinion does NOT matter. So tradmark you now reveal your damning prejudice. I have nothing CLOSE to your killing experience, so you win and I leave.
Shooting into ballistic gel provides valuable comparison to other loads shot into the same ballistic gel. That is valid.
But I will post no more on this site, because intolerance for
any other opinion, no matter the basis, is not tolerable or valid from you.
I am NOT in agreement with you. Good bye and go with God.

JEFF460: I HOPE YOU RECONSIDER AND DO NOT ABANDON THIS SITE. I LEARN A LOT FROM OTHER HANDGUNNER'S EXPERIENCES, AND ALSO VALUE OPINIONS AND THEORY, BUT AM MORE APT TO RELY MORE ON EXPERIENCE THAN EITHER THEORY OR OPINION.

I may reconsider, but I abhor exclusive dogma that seeks to distinguish those who have first-hand experience and keep them ONLY. And that also seek, by interrogation techniques, to discard the well-meaning and learned members who simply wish to interact and keep learning. Learning and reflecting no matter what role player of an honest-source provides for contemplation.
Please pray for me, as I am honestly unconvinced of my own self-worth on this forum.

For those who have not hunted South Texas properties with "high fence" it is used just as much to keep poachers and game thieves out as it is to keep animals in. I have hunted in pastures on a high fenced Texas ranch property. The high fence was around 50,000 acres and the pastures were 5,000 acres each. Not exactly what first comes to mind with the term "high fence".

Let me note here that when discussing such a hot topic as bullet performance on game animals, since every hit/kill is different due to so many variables, there can be different experiences and therefore different personal conclusions.

That is why reading about other people's experience is not going to satisfy or convince everybody...

By all means, please relate your own experiences but do not assume that other's opinions (experience) will be the same, or that everybody will or must agree.

Actual experience (as long as it is truthful and not exaggerated) proves or disproves mere opinions; opinions based on experience are meaningful but as I stated experiences can be different.

Jeff, posts on this site are not to win or lose, but rather share information. I hope you will continue to share yours and please do not doubt your self-worth.

I will not lock this post yet as it has remained mostly civil...

Jeff?i am not being exclusive or prejudicial. I would love to hunt with anyone here and we compare notes and discuss. I have had very very heated discussions with some on this forum that i am good friends with and hunt with regularly. Do not doubt worth but i will say i have some serious questions related to the dogma spread over the years i havent found to be true. Thats where the discussion comes in. Then imagine my surprise when i find out the number of those giving bad advice that has been spread as dogma havent ever done it.im certainly not perfect but i learn from my mistakes. I do agree with rey?s posts above. I dont sell anything, im not sponsored but i have been on hunts where handgunninf was portrayed negatively to an outfitter or a ph, not due to poor shooting but to the bullets being used failing and nearly getting someone killed. I couldnt hunt at a great concession for sable in africa in 2018 due to a bad hunt and bad hardcast failure. No more handguns there! Asking you what you have shot is not prejudicial nor is it trying to make you look bad. I am just figuring out from which position are you speaking from. Nothing more and nothing less. Dont leave but also be prepared to back up opinions with experiences. That is not being mean or malignant and i certainly dont mean for it to. My goal is to help those that havent done it do it well and not learn the lessons i have the hard way.

Hunting can be so unpredictable, even with great bullets & what we call perfect hits. Some animals just don't accept the fact that they are dead on the spot, it happens. Hang around hunting long enough & you'll see it happen with no explanation in sight.
Probably the best, or maybe the worst example I can relate is a guy that shot an Idaho Pronghorn 7 times with a 7mm magnum.
The first shot looked good & was an exit, the next 6 were just brutal & yet it kept running, why? We were just spectators but it was a sad event to watch with no answer that we could come up with. Cast or premium, sometimes it just doesn't make any sense how they react.
Jeff, reconsider, we all need to keep these discussions open & going, hopefully no one gets too worked up over some one else's opinion. There's 2 ways to get experience, listening to those that have it & are willing to share it & also by getting out there & getting in the trigger time. Good hunting!

Dick

Forgot! Being a born & bred western hunter I can tell you that many don't understand high fence hunting but I've always defended it & encouraged it. It's a simple fact that not everyone lives in the western US where there is a lot of public land where you just take off & hunt. We take that for granted out here & some laugh at people that high fence hunt, they wouldn't if they lived in other parts of the country.
I learned when I was in the military in Texas that it's all private & you're going to pay somebody if you want to hunt so shut up & pay or don't hunt.
Also it's a great way to speed up the learning curve, not everyone can make a trip out west every year or go to Alaska or Africa, so stay home, find a good hunting preserve or high fence operation in Texas, etc & get some nice animals under your belt. We all have to start somewhere but at least get started. Then you can test bullets, meet other hunters & see what works & what doesn't. Nobody was born doing it!!!!!!!

Dick

I will come back. Every so-called expert started out as a beginner with no experience. Admire the experience but value all on the journey.

Well said dick

Amen Sixshot..Life is too short...go hunting

Can I get a big AMEN!?!?

Amen

I've said this many times in many places but maybe some haven't heard it or perhaps don't believe it. I learned my lesson in 1976-77 in Handgun Silhouette, you just can't shoot hard cast at hard objects, especially at high velocity or you are doomed to fail. A premium bullet will not do that but cast bullets can break your heart if you break the rules.
The rules are, hard cast at high velocity on heavy bone is a no no, same way on steel we found out after much experimenting. Once we slowed down & softened our alloy we started to have success.
We referred to it as "dwell time" A cast bullet will do fine on a lot of bone but not a lot of heavy bone, especially if it's going fast & is an high antimony alloy bullet.
Big, heavy cast bullets are wonderful, I've used them all my life but I've never tried to drive them top level, you don't need to. The faster you drive them the faster they will fail on heavy bone. Also a nose profile that is too wide will work against you, you have to compromise a little.
I doubt I'll ever kill anything bigger than the elk, moose, bears & plains game I've already killed so I'll never shoot anything but cast. I do have a local guy who said I can shoot some slaughter steers for him in a few weeks, I'll use 3 different calibers. I've done this twice before but it's been a while, looking forward to it.

Dick

"AND SIXSHOT KNOWS CAST BULLETS".

DICK: THIS WILL NOT BE THE LAST TIME YOU MAY HAVE TO REPEAT THE ABOVE, TOO MANY MYTHS OUT THERE ABOUT "HARD" CAST BULLETS.

He who knows cast bullets knows a lot from experience. Experience in testing in live animals and testing in media meant to create a measurable comparative data.

I AM RESURRECTING THIS TOPIC FOR RON K, WHO HAS QUESTIONS ABOUT HUNTING BULLETS FOR HIS COLT NF 45 COLT.

SAW SOME CAST BULLET DISCUSSION ON ANOTHER SITE, GOING TO DIRECT THEM TO THIS TOPIC FOR SOME "STRAIGHT SKINNY", SO I AM RESURRECTING THIS TOPIC SO THEY CAN FIND IT.