I recently received my new 445 Super Mag barrel from MGM. After the barrel break in process they require I began to do a little load development. I have decided that the bullet I want to shoot is the Montana Bullet Works 315 gr. WLN-GC LBT. I have been playing with several powders; H-110, AA1680 and VV N-120. And so far VV N-120 at 30.0 gr. has been a sweetheart of a load! I'm using Federal 155 LP primers, I have read of people using Large Rifle primers as well. . .is there any advantage in doing so?

[i][/i]JUST FOR ARGUMENT SAKE - I AM WELL AWARE OF THE WHOLE SEATING DEPTH ISSUE BETWEEN LP PRIMERS AND LR PRIMERS. I HAVE CHECKED AND DO NOT HAVE THAT ISSUE, THEY ARE BOTH SAFE IN MY T/C ENCORE AND MY STARLINE BRASS.

Rifle primers are usually harder metal and sometimes hotter, but if they work and don't cause high pressure, I don't see any problem. Just my opinion.

I think pressure is the whole issue; that is why the super high pressure .454 Casull uses SMALL rifle primers. Harder metal and smaller hole: therefore stronger over-all enclosure to handle the insane pressure.

The 445 Super Mag calls for the use of LR primers, and I would be inclined to use them especially with Ball Powders such as the H110 and AA1680. But with VV N120 if the accuracy is there then I would not worry about it. My only question is does it give you the velocity you want? Again,,If it is close and the accuracy is there, then I would run with it. Take the 500 S&W it calls for LR primers but you can use LP or LP magnum primers with certain loads. EX a shotshell load for the 500 would only require LP primer.
Another example is with VV N110... It does NOT require the use of a magnum primer as does H110. If fact it is better to not use the magnum primer according to VHIT. In this example I am speaking of Pistol loads. ( and still speaking of H110 VS N110 )
Why the LR primers in Pistol calibers? part of the reason like Gary said is pressure and the other is the large amount of powder the primer is required to ignite. It would need to be a hotter primer.
Another food for thought is the fact that with this caliber and a few other large calibers use slow burning powders that work better with hotter burning primers such as a LR or a Magnum type.
A quick look at the powders involved : powders are 2 types yes,,, But the coating on the outside gives them the different characteristics such as burn rates and of course the additives such as low flash or the new Copper eraser additive. And even more involved is the temperatures of the burning powders themselves.
That's why some work better than others for each caliber and bullet choice.

Dang that was long hope you don't have a headache. Haaa

Cherokeetracker,

I have only used the Fed 155 Mag LP primers for all the testing thus far. . .VV N-120 is at the top of the heap for this handgun/cartridge combination. AA1680 needed 1.5 grs. more to achieve basically the same MV, but ES/SD was high. 1680 will be a back-up powder though and H-110 wasn't working out at all. With a max load (pressure signs on primer) of N-120 at 32.5 grs. the average MV was 1772 fps ES/SD of 17/5 with groups of 3" at 100 yds. The load I'm favoring is 30 grs. with a average MV of 1652 fps, ES/SD 10/4 and 1.5" groups at 100 yds. These were 5 shot groups and the inside of the barrel is clean and clear. I'm very happy with the 30 gr. N-120 load, but there are two reason I've asked about the LR primers; 1. because of a few reloading manuals along with load data from Dan Wesson shooters who use it. 2. I have another fella I chat with online and he strongly believes that the LR give him better performance and ES/SD in the single digits! He is shooting a 12" 445SM T/C Contender.
I probably should leave well enough alone, but I'm one of those guys who likes to tinker and experiment with cartridges to get the most out of them. And its a new toy and I REALLY have enjoyed everything about it so far!

According to John Linebaugh a LR primer can increase pressure as much as 10,000 PSI without a corresponding increase in pressure. I only use LP mag primers with H-110/296.

CHEROKEETRACKER: I HAVE USED FEDERAL 155 MAGNUM PRIMERS FOR YEARS WITH VVN110 IN MY 45 COLT OUTDOORSMAN LOADS (250gr CAST BULLETS @ AROUND 1,350fps IN 5 1/2 INCH REVOLVERS). I WAS UNAWARE OF THE STANDARD PRIMER RECOMMENDATION. SO WHAT HAVE I BEEN MISSING BY NOT USING STANDARD PRIMERS? MORE VELOCITY, BETTER ACCURACY, OR WHAT? WHICH PRIMER WOULD YOU RECOMMEND? WHAT ABOUT THE WINCHESTER WLP?

I am high in analytical thing (one of my aptitudes) So I do not blame you for wanting to experiment some. If you do want to use the LR primers , you should be able to do so. According to info I have, Mag primers burn around 23% hotter than regular primers.
The flame duration of the Mag Primer is longer than a regular primer. Intended Mostly for Ball powders and cold temps.
So I am sure that all, or most all of your powder is getting burned. 15" barrel is in your favor too.

So let's begin questions,,, Does the fella online that you chat with, have all the data for you? such as temp that day,, altitude and Barometric pressure? The reason I ask this is in colder weather that primer change just might make a difference.
Is he in Colorado or Montana and you in Louisiana (sea level VS high altitude ) see where I am going?

Is your brass the same as the recipe you got? or how about your chat friend? Same as his?

I am not familiar that much with that bullet, and when Bruce bought Montana bullet works, he changed the website and stopped showing the measurements on the OAL and crimp to nose. Why would I bring that up? I like knowing so that I know how much capacity there is and know if and when I begin to compress a load

N120 powder is temp stable !!! SO no need to worry about that.
All the new batches of VHIT powder have the copper eraser stuff in them. To quote the sales pitch from Vhitavouri it increases velocity, and since it prevents fouling, it is supposed to be more accurate. Say,,, after 30 -50 shots even. So they say.

Here is my other thoughts on this. First off you have a good barrel. Some might even call it a fast barrel. It seems to me that you are getting a little better velocity than test barrels. SO you might want to stay with what you have. Also you are shooting lead VS a Jacketed bullet. Lead usually gives a higher velocity, with less pressure. If you do switch to a jacketed bullet, you for sure might want to go to the LR primer for pressure reasons.

Primers, and changing them with a given load does make a difference. 260 Rem and the 308 Win are similar agreed? well the Fed Gold medal match primer would not work in the 260 and yet it is supreme with the 308.
And just for the record I have tried different brass too !!!
243 necked up Win brass Federal brass and of course the Remington and some Hornady.
While I am talking about brass I want to bring up another piece of information that may and may not be relevant. Hornady started using a SR primer with the 6.8 SPC because in their test findings, They found that the LR primers were causing too much pressure with the rounds.


I hope that I have given you plenty to think about and spark questions. This is how we learn.

Different primers do make a difference. Try 3-5 cartridges only and see what the chronograph tells you. As you know you can look at the primers for flatness and it is better to measure near the base of the cartridge. After firing if you measure .002 larger is too much pressure. I am not talking about at the rim. I am talking about near the end of where the case is Full Length sized. Use a sharpie and measure in the same spot.
Do empties fall out of the chamber? Did accuracy fall off?
Loose Primer pockets ? (usually doesn't happen till after 3-5 shots with a max load or over) depending upon brass brand.

But I have to say that I am in favor of staying with what Elgin Gates might have formulated. He was the creator of the super mags. I do not know if he came up with your exact recipe.
BUT,,, At the same time I do also know that Comparing VHIT N110 to Hodgdon H110.... with the N110 there is usually less pressure. Sometimes less velocity even with more powder.
You have answered your own questions in some ways, already.
Stating the max load of 32.5 showed pressure signs and accuracy dropped off. I would be inclined to try the same load or even start at the 30gr of N120 with LR primers and go up from there.

Good luck and let us know how this turns out for you.

real quick I wonder how much N120 you have? and are they selling it again? Hodgdon stopped importing it because Vhitavouri was using it in 22LR ammo. Well that was what I was told by Hodgdon tech. I would like to get some if it is back on shelves.

I found some N120 and a few others that I have not been able to find.

45man switch to the LP primers and hopefully you will see a little better accuracy. Velocity is not going to be affected from the change with this particular powder.

I will go ahead and give my 2 cents about Winchester and their new primers. I think from the above posts that for the most part my feelings are quite clear on this, but here goes.
I still believe that a magnum primer is better utilized at times and then of course a regular primer is better.
Examples: Fast burning powders need only a regular primer.
Ball powders need a magnum primer. Especially in colder weather.
One step further....
Winchesters own powder W231 does not do well in cold weather. What is required in recipes? Regular primers.
So just how much pressure is going to be happening with the new primer?
Winchester has another powder that can easily replace the W231 and that is the Winchester Super Target. It only uses a regular primer. WST is a good powder for of course shotgun use and Target pistol loads.
So I have some questions...
1. Some quantum physics now reveal that a "semi mag primer" is a "One size fits all" primer?
2. And just how hot is this new primer?
3. How long is the flame duration?
4. What temp is it operating at?
5.At what percentage rate is this new over the old when it comes to the above questions?
6. Ok new is better and change is good... Well the old recipes for loads before are they now no good? and what about the magnum primer requirements before are they now obsolete as well?

If anyone has done any testing with this New Primer I would like to know. I have not seen any info and I will have to let everyone know that I am cynical and very skeptical when it comes to the write-ups out there these days.

I have tested some of these powders and primer combinations, and have found that certain primers DO work better than others.
Generally I stay with a recipe that is offered (from Load Books ) since the Lab has already done the testing.
Ok Ok I hear you,, we did not touch on the medium burning powders....
Take 2400 Good powder and it calls for a regular primer.
Several use a mag primer and say that they cannot tell any difference. So far this is one that I have not been able to prove or disprove without some equipment or test barrel.
The loads I have used with it work well with a regular primer and I have not sought to change.
So here again raises that question concerning the WLP primer. Could it be that just a little hotter primer would be better?
Seems like a good idea especially in cold weather hunting situations.
I cannot answer that question without some help from test equipment.
Each person is going to have to take responsibility for their own actions and stay safe with their loads. So if one works slowly at this and carefully with their equipment, I believe they can find better results than most off the shelf offerings.
We all know that each Barrel and each gun is different. So what works for some may not work for others. That is why we work UP loads slowly.
The biggest concern is when approaching max loads. This is where a mag primer just may cause some unwanted results.

I offer a 2 minute rebuttal Haaa

Cherokeetracker,

Thank you for your comments on this matter, it is very informative. I have loaded up 25 rounds with LR primers to test over the chrono, but Mother Nature had other plans for me today. I live in Hernando Co. Florida and temps here lately have been a nasty balmy 85/90 degrees - YUCK!!! I agree with you, I've been very impressed with the velocities I have been getting with this new 445SM barrel. . .better than what I was hoping for with accuracy to boot. The guy online whom I chat with lives in Panama City, Fl. which is a few hours NW of me, but his load is close to mine; powder,brass, but he uses a 320 Cast Performance LBT bullet and the LR primers and he has a 12" barrel while I have a 14" barrel. The VV N-120 is available from several of the big powder sellers. As soon as I wrap up the rest of my load development and if I do settle on the N-120, I plan on ordering a 8 lb. jug just so I don't run out anytime soon. I also want to run some in my Ruger Bisley Hunter 45 colt with 280 gr. hardcast for sh!t's and giggles. I will keep you guys posted on my findings regarding the LR primers in my 445SM as soon as I have time to get back out to the back pasture. Thanks again and please keep the info coming.

OFFSHORE: I understand about Mother Nature. Yesterday the wind was the usually 16-18 MPH and I was trying to shoot pistols at my usual 50-100 yds. Even with 225-250 gr bullets they get pushed around and move sometimes 6-8" at 100yds.Especially when it gusts.
I did find the N120 and might point put that it really shines in cases like the 221 Fireball, and a few others where you have a small case and higher pressures. (think bottleneck)
When it comes to Pdog hunting it is my first choice for the smaller stuff. Clean and gives good accuracy.
As far as the N120 and it's use in the 45 Colt cartridge. Well that is up to you but,, you might as well know right now that you will not burn but about half of the powder and the velocity is certainly going to be in the lower range. I think there are better choices out there.

280,300,310, 315, 325,335, different grain cast. I have tried a lot of bullets. Hodgdon, H110 is hard to beat. Especially with the heavier bullets.
It gives me the velocities that I like or want.

That 280 gr cast opens up several possibilities as far as powders. H4227 was one that worked well with that weight. For an even milder load W231 was good.

I am going to ask what is the intended target with this combo?

It would be a data gathering experiment to choose one load using a ball powder and shoot 5 shot strings, changing only the primer. And of course shoot over a chronograph through a pressure barrel, off a Ransom rest, at a target at say 50 yards. And using every primer available, both rifle and pistol. You would get some interesting results.

Agree !! The key word here is the pressure barrel since without it we probably would not know about any pressure spikes that can happen. But me I would want to have at minimum 10 shot strings.
There goes my analytical thinking again... What about errors?
haaa


Sort of like a dream job for some of us.

As I posted above a John Linebaugh?s pressure testing in his pressure barrels in straight walled handgun rounds like the 475 and 500 Linebaugh?s showed an increase as higher as 10,000 PSI without a corresponding jncrease in velocity when useing rifle primers. I never use rifle primers.

I managed to get out to shoot some more yesterday. . .brought out 25 loads of each; 155 LP primers and 210 LR primers. All loaded with 30 grs. VV N-120 powder and 315 gr. hardcast. Shooting over my chrono, I can say that Mr. Linebaugh is pretty spot on in his findings! Muzzle velocity did not increase, but my ES/SD and group size went to hell.

445 SM
Starline brass
315 gr. WLN-GC .431"
30.0 grs. VV N-120
Fed 210 LR primer
MV 1656 fps. ES/SD 44/17
4.5" groups @ 100 yds.

445 SM
Starline brass
315 gr. WLN-GC .431"
30.0 grs. VV N-120
Fed 155 LP primer
MV 1644 fps. ES/SD 11/4
1.5" groups @ 100 yds.

The above info is the average of each 25 shot string out of a 14" MGM T/C Encore bull barrel.

I'm contemplating taking off the Leupold DDP sight and mounting a Leupold scope on this rig. I was not expecting this barrel/myself to shoot as good as it does and now curiosity is wanting me to stretch it's legs! I feel this combination with a good scope (Vx-3 2.5-8x32) could be a 200 yard lead slinging machine!!!

I also loaded up 18 rounds of the 45 Colt with the VV N-120 and Cherokeetracker was correct. . .didn't shoot worth a damn.

Interesting. Never really thought it would be that significant of a difference.

Indeed. I guess that debate is settled.

No surprise here. Much easier to get accurate loads with LPP instead of LRP. Little difference in velocity.