Dealing with jacketed bullets I have pondered what the ideal penetration depth would be for White Tail deer hunting. I pretty much take broad side shots behind the front shoulder. I would guess that would be approximately 12"-15" penetration on an ideal shot on about any Missouri Whitetail deer.
I would think that a Jacketed bullet that expands and comes to a stop in the 18"-20" range in ballistic gelatin would be about right for deer. The 18" probably being the preferred depth of penetration if one only makes broadside shots.

I have a feeling that a lot of the rifle bullets used in handguns may over penetrate, and under expand from ideal on broadside rib shots.

I have been thinking about building another Fackler Water Box to test my handgun hunting loads in. Using Water you divide the penetration depth by 1.8 to correspond with 10% ballistic jel. I would probably need to build the box 48" in depth. That would correspond to approximately 27" penetration in jel. To use Gallon Freezer bags full of water I will need to use a 2X10 board for the base, and probably plywood for the sides.

I have never tested hunting bullets in a Fackler Water Box. My testing to date has always been with defensive carry pistol ammo. I would like to see how some of the newer rifle bullets such as the 30 Cal 135 FTX will perform in say the 30-30AI and 308 handgun barrel lengths. I would also like to see what some of the varmint bullets in the 95-100 grain range will do in a 7-30 Waters and 6.5 JDJ at Contender Handgun velocities. Testing them in a Fackler Water Box is a much better plan than doing initial testing on a game animal and discovering you have made a mistake on just how the bullet will perform.

It would be interesting to see what recovered bullets look like, and get a handle on how deep they penetrate. To date I have never recovered a bullet fired from my 6.5X30JDJ,35 Bullberry, or my 7.62X53R. We have never recovered a bullet so far from my brothers 30-30AI or 7-30 Waters either as best I remember.

Does anyone have any thoughts or tests they have done along these lines?

Bob R

I MOSTLY HUNT WITH REVOLVERS, BUT WHATEVER THE CARTRIDGE, I PREFER PASS THRUS.

I've used plastic bags in a cardboard box filled with water to test pellets but never anything more powerful. I use water filled milk jugs to test .22lr hollow pointed with a Waltz die and it works well. I lined up eight water filled milk jugs and shot them with a .357 Magnum Federal 158gr. jacketed soft-point factory round from a S&W 686 with a 6" barrel. From ten yards it blew through all eight and the exit hole showed no sign of expansion. I think your 48" box might be a little short for some bullets.

As many of you know, I'm a single shot, jacketed bullet, velocity is your friend kind of guy. With that in mind, I typically shoot heavy for caliber bullets. I have only ever recovered 1 bullet in a deer with my single shots, and it was a 125 gr Nosler BT from my 30/221 on a Fallow Deer at 81 yards. I've recovered several from deer with revolvers I've used, but in all cases, the bullets obviously penetrated enough and worked. I do get a little humor from listening to folks talk about how horrible bullets must be if you recover them from deer....I know guys that have recovered partitions, xtp's, gold dots, and Rey recovered an A Frame out of a 454 on a deer......moral of the story......any testing is good and very useful......velocity and weight are your friends.....bullet design and construction play a huge factor and if you want the best........shoot single shots 😉😬😜....LOL

I thought we were talking about handguns.

Hahahahaha

Whitetail aren?t difficult to penetrate through or kill. That said, there is no testing like testing on flesh. I have done a truckload of penetration over the years and while much of it is useful, flesh is still the best. If you want to simulate an animal, you should probably incorporate bones in the media and eliminate wood. JMHO.

For deer I always prefer a pass through shot. I like the limited expansion of a heavy, large caliber jacketed bullet but a flat front cast bullet is superior to poor penetration from a rapidly expanding bullet. A large hole all the way through bleeds out or deflates the lungs the best. My revolver experiences are limited to 44 Magnum and 460 S&W.

My preferred single shot round is the 358 JDJ. For deer I like the Speer 220 grain flat point. I have shot quite a few deer and deer sized game with this bullet - All pass throughs. I have shot several front to back with a thumb sized exit wound.

Based on my 2400+ handgun deer kills (and autopsies on each one) pass through is the way to go. I see no reason for a bullet to stay in a deer.
The bullets I've recovered from deer fit in 2 categorys. 1) end to end shots I purposely do to see if the bullet stays in a deer and how much it has expanded. For pass throughs this way I use them for primary shots if the deer want turn or for follow up shots if my primary doesn't put it down.
2) Angled shots I do on purpose to see if the bullet will penetrate completely. If it doesn't and only one lung is hit, the deer may get away. I use these bullets only on broadside shots (about anything will go through a deer this way) or on groundhogs. I usually shoot at least 10 deer with these less than perfect bullets before I consider them unworthy for all hunting situations. I know many have espoused these bullets after shooting a deer or two. Shoot enough and you'll regret it.

My thoughts on 18" - 20" penetration would be a pass through on a broadside behind the shoulder shot on a 12" - 15" wide deer. If the bullet would come to a stop in ballistic media in that range of penetration it should have expanded.
If the bullet penetrates say 3 or 4 feet it probably will not have expanded at all in the deer's chest cavity.
I believe all of the purpose built jacketed handgun hunting bullets have now been discontinued. We no longer have a 7mm Sierra 130 SSP,.308 Sierra 135 SSP, or .358 Hornady 180 SSP. That has us all shooting bullets designed for rifle velocity. If you plan to shoot your deer from whatever angle presents itself a heavier constructed bullet that will pass through from any angle presented to hit the vitals would be preferred.
I make a serious effort to only shoot broadside behind the shoulder shots to minimize the meat damage. This angle of shot does not require nearly as heavily constructed bullet as one that shoots through both shoulders for example.

Then we have bullets like the Hornady .308 135 FTX with no track record at all from a handgun such as the 30 Herrett, 30-30, 30-30AI, or 308. Without some testing I have no handle at all on this bullets performance. It might blow up at 308 velocity, and it might not expand at 30 Herrett or 30-30 handgun velocity. The one test I did find on this bullet was out of a 10" 300 Black Out AR with the velocity a little under 2,000 fps, and it over penetrated and did not look to have expanded well at all. I am sure more velocity would have changed the performance of this bullet.

I have a 6.5X30JDJ Super 14 Contender barrel, as well as an Encore Barrel in 260 Remington. Bullet performance will not be the same from both barrels.

I also have a Scout and a Contender barrel in 357 Maximum along with a 35 Bullberry. The Bullberry will outdo the 357 maximums between 200 and 300 fps. That is enough difference to notice using the same bullets I would think.

I do not do crop damage hunts, so I am limited to one or two deer harvested a year. That makes bullet testing on live deer a pretty slow process.

I like experimenting anyway.

Patiently waiting on warmer weather.

Bob R

Bob, I guess I'm lucky getting all the experience I have on deer. That's why I'm willing to share my experience with handgunners.
I have used a Horn. FX. A 200 gr. .338 in my .338 Mag JDJ Encore( full length .338 Mag with SSK sharp shoulder). I've done around 6 deer with it. Damage is more than a .338 AB & 185 TSX, about 4" of internal damage and a 2 1/2" exit. I've done double lung shots and one shoulder/opposite lung shots with it. There's lots of blood shot tissues in the shoulder blade/lungs/ribs. The needy/old people I give my deer to rarely want shoulder meat.
One thing I noticed about the FX in my .338 is that they cause a more forceable recoil than other bullets of the same weight. I'm not sure why, but my hand can really tell it. My deer bullet in all my .338s is the 185 TSX-less damage, more penetration, easier on my old hands.
The bullets I've recovered on rectal to chest shots have been: 350 gr. Horn FP in .45-70, 130 gr. AB in 6.5/.284, 185 gr. TSX in .338-06JDJ, .338 MagJDJ. All of these expanded about 30% more than bullet diameter.

Bob I have a box and have tested some bullets, but still have a ways to go with what I want to test.
1. It would be good to post your results of defense loads as well as hunting loads.
2. Consider placing a Beef Knuckle in there to test the larger caliber bullets.
3. Consider placing a piece of leather over the first bag of water or Jug of water whichever you choose.

The more we can simulate real life animals the closer and better understanding we will have. And as has been said here many times nothing takes the place of real live animals to test on.
Charles

I am also a pass through guy. Two holes are better than one. More tissue destruction, more bleeding, more better.

Elmer Keith of "Hell I was There!" said he wanted to see "ropes of blood" coming out of both sides of a large animal as they ran away. That means two large holes on the outside in-line from entrance of the bullet to exit of the bullet.

IMHO if you can't get reliable pass throughs on a broadside shot, you don't have sufficient penetration to deal with bone and/or quartering shots. No such thing as over penetration.

I am in 100% agreement that a complete pass through is what we are all looking for. The larger the blood trail the better. The deer will go down quicker, and also be easier to track if required. I would like the hole coming out to be a little larger while still getting a complete pass through being my objective.

If one does enough reading, and or asks enough questions on this and other handgun hunting friendly sites you will get good answers on which bullets work in what calibers. The vast majority of us never recover a bullet to see exactly how much expansion we do get. The bullet of choice in a 6.5JDJ for example has been the 120 Nosler Ballistic Tip for a very long time. I have killed deer with it in my 6.5-30JDJ, and it does work. The exit hole's could been larger on a "broadside behind the shoulder shot" in my opinion. I am reasonably sure I could have made the same shot with a 142 Sierra Match King or any number of other 6.5 bullets and got almost the same exact results however. Dead deer after a 50 thru 100 yard run, and a small exit hole with a blood trail that could be better if it were a little larger. If I were to make the shot further forward making a heart shot while penetrating a shoulder the 120 BT I am sure would have performed beautifully.

My thoughts are that it would be a good tool to recover some different bullets and get a handle on exactly how deep they go and how much they will expand. We could then do some Apples to Apples comparisons with bullets with a known track record.

Revolvers were mentioned in one post above. My 480 Super RedHawk with my 375 grain WFN-GC cast bullets make pretty large holes on both sides. Big bullet's make nice large holes that work well for both knock down power as well as good blood trails. Jacketed bullets work best with some degree of expansion.

Bob R

I could care less if i get a pass through. Expandables will ?catch? in the hide while wrecking the inside. Ive recovered many bullets from large animals that all dropped within sight. Furthest ive ever tracked a large bovine was from a shot that was a pass through.